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Let's discuss what really DO need nerfs for TRs
kweassa
Member Posts: 2,390 Arc User
In no direct relation with what all the whiners and complainers say, still, I do think certain things need to be addressed.
IMO those are:
1. Disheartening Strike: ultimate PuG slayer, makes WK Sab the most OP perma in the history of NW TRs
2. Shadowy Opportunity: 3k~4k CoS shots per pop, WK Sabs can also chain these from stealth
3. OWTS: the main culprit behind making super-easy perma builds without any investment into INT or silveries
4. Concussive Strikes: perhaps 5s ICD is too short.. 2.5 daze and 5s ICD means 50% uptime
3 of my "OP stuff" picks are from Saboteuer, but I don't have anything against them personally. I've met plenty of Sabs in preview in duels, and it was always a nice, well-matched fight. However, for other classes, I can only imagine the amount of frustration.
■ Particularly speaking, it was after I switched to WK/Sab to test it out in Domination, that I had no choice but to admit that its just thoroughly OP. I can't make any kind of excuse as to just how OP this build is.
It is about 1 week from release, and in around 30 matches or so I've gained a 20:1 Kill/Death ratio, with around 380 kills for 19 deaths in 30 matches. That's an average of 12.6 kills and 0.6 deaths per match. Considering every single match I run is solo random PuGs, there were as many shi*<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> matches, as there were cakewalks. Sometimes it was a piece of cake, sometimes my team sucked so bad that there was no way for me to carry all of them to victory. Sometimes everyone gave up except me just testing out my skills against all 5 of them, playing the "hunter vs. hunted" game.
■ Every TR with a brain and a conscience more or less (cautiously) admits that the "get rid of perma" objective has failed due to Saboteuers. However, what many do not realize is that MI/Sab perma builds are a joke, compared to what the WK/Sab can do (as I've actually predicted).
No matter how hard GC hits, at most its one attack against one given target at a time. However, DHS can be flinged against multiple targets (3~4 usually), with EVERY SINGLE SUPERIOR BENEFIT a ranged power holds over melee powers.
You don't have to chase targets. You don't have to risk going close. You hit from a range... and best of all, it's a persistent DoT that lasts for a LONG time, and even HIGH DAMAGE at that. In the time a MI/Sab would chase around trying to land GC shots a few times, a WK/Sab will deal much superior damage without taking any risks, and to mutliple enemies at the same time.... AND WILL STILL REMAIN IN STEALTH by using perma qualities made possible through the Sab feats. Truth be told, I've been stacking up Triple Kills like crazy.
■ What adds to even more OP-ness, is that this mod5 version of the "All-ranged Whisperknife" also makes best use of Shadowy opportunity. Like said, MIs are basically melees, and there's a limit to how fast and often a melee can attack. Whatever damage from Shadowy Opportunity usually procs along with occasional hits of GC.
WK/Sabs?
Stealth - CoS - CoS - CoS - CoS - BnS - CoS - CoS - CoS - Shadow Strike - CoS - CoS - CoS - CoS - VP(throw) ...
For WK/Sabs, it is actually worth the stealth depletion since you can so easily refresh it, upto 3 times in a row. After the first few throws, the damage stacking reaches full capacity, each CoS shot is powered up by various stealth related buffs + auto-crits and crit severity buffs/enchants... and on top of those, Shadowy Opportunity applies a big chunk of extra damage.
In other words, each CoS you throw lands for around 3k~4k per pop. How many did I throw up there? 11 throws. Thanks to the new, unlimited charges of CoS, I've thrown CoS-chains that deal much higher damage than the old CoS, and at the same time threw more of them than the old, 8-charge CoS.
...
■ So basically, you reach the node, you see 3 defenders on it.
■ In your first rotation you dish out DHS to all 3 of them.
■ You watch and giggle as the enemies desperately wiggle around, use heal pots, throw around AoEs
■ Take your time, all 3 of them are now low in HP, some on the verge of death
■ Pick out targets, use your next rotation's worth of OWTS and BnS to fling CoS of doom
■ One by one they go down, Triple Kill
Now, I am not saying only the WK has this problem. The MI/Sabs are also filthy difficult to flush out, and in terms of 1vs1, especially against stronger melees like GF/GWFs, they kill much faster. It's just that WK synergizes so well with Saboteuer, that it shows probably ALL the problems with current Sabs in one, single build.
(ps) The 4th, Concussive Strikes.. maybe they can dial back the daze duration to 2.0s, and then increase ICD to 6, making it 33% uptime, shorter from the previous 50% uptime...?
IMO those are:
1. Disheartening Strike: ultimate PuG slayer, makes WK Sab the most OP perma in the history of NW TRs
2. Shadowy Opportunity: 3k~4k CoS shots per pop, WK Sabs can also chain these from stealth
3. OWTS: the main culprit behind making super-easy perma builds without any investment into INT or silveries
4. Concussive Strikes: perhaps 5s ICD is too short.. 2.5 daze and 5s ICD means 50% uptime
3 of my "OP stuff" picks are from Saboteuer, but I don't have anything against them personally. I've met plenty of Sabs in preview in duels, and it was always a nice, well-matched fight. However, for other classes, I can only imagine the amount of frustration.
■ Particularly speaking, it was after I switched to WK/Sab to test it out in Domination, that I had no choice but to admit that its just thoroughly OP. I can't make any kind of excuse as to just how OP this build is.
It is about 1 week from release, and in around 30 matches or so I've gained a 20:1 Kill/Death ratio, with around 380 kills for 19 deaths in 30 matches. That's an average of 12.6 kills and 0.6 deaths per match. Considering every single match I run is solo random PuGs, there were as many shi*<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> matches, as there were cakewalks. Sometimes it was a piece of cake, sometimes my team sucked so bad that there was no way for me to carry all of them to victory. Sometimes everyone gave up except me just testing out my skills against all 5 of them, playing the "hunter vs. hunted" game.
■ Every TR with a brain and a conscience more or less (cautiously) admits that the "get rid of perma" objective has failed due to Saboteuers. However, what many do not realize is that MI/Sab perma builds are a joke, compared to what the WK/Sab can do (as I've actually predicted).
No matter how hard GC hits, at most its one attack against one given target at a time. However, DHS can be flinged against multiple targets (3~4 usually), with EVERY SINGLE SUPERIOR BENEFIT a ranged power holds over melee powers.
You don't have to chase targets. You don't have to risk going close. You hit from a range... and best of all, it's a persistent DoT that lasts for a LONG time, and even HIGH DAMAGE at that. In the time a MI/Sab would chase around trying to land GC shots a few times, a WK/Sab will deal much superior damage without taking any risks, and to mutliple enemies at the same time.... AND WILL STILL REMAIN IN STEALTH by using perma qualities made possible through the Sab feats. Truth be told, I've been stacking up Triple Kills like crazy.
■ What adds to even more OP-ness, is that this mod5 version of the "All-ranged Whisperknife" also makes best use of Shadowy opportunity. Like said, MIs are basically melees, and there's a limit to how fast and often a melee can attack. Whatever damage from Shadowy Opportunity usually procs along with occasional hits of GC.
WK/Sabs?
Stealth - CoS - CoS - CoS - CoS - BnS - CoS - CoS - CoS - Shadow Strike - CoS - CoS - CoS - CoS - VP(throw) ...
For WK/Sabs, it is actually worth the stealth depletion since you can so easily refresh it, upto 3 times in a row. After the first few throws, the damage stacking reaches full capacity, each CoS shot is powered up by various stealth related buffs + auto-crits and crit severity buffs/enchants... and on top of those, Shadowy Opportunity applies a big chunk of extra damage.
In other words, each CoS you throw lands for around 3k~4k per pop. How many did I throw up there? 11 throws. Thanks to the new, unlimited charges of CoS, I've thrown CoS-chains that deal much higher damage than the old CoS, and at the same time threw more of them than the old, 8-charge CoS.
...
■ So basically, you reach the node, you see 3 defenders on it.
■ In your first rotation you dish out DHS to all 3 of them.
■ You watch and giggle as the enemies desperately wiggle around, use heal pots, throw around AoEs
■ Take your time, all 3 of them are now low in HP, some on the verge of death
■ Pick out targets, use your next rotation's worth of OWTS and BnS to fling CoS of doom
■ One by one they go down, Triple Kill
Now, I am not saying only the WK has this problem. The MI/Sabs are also filthy difficult to flush out, and in terms of 1vs1, especially against stronger melees like GF/GWFs, they kill much faster. It's just that WK synergizes so well with Saboteuer, that it shows probably ALL the problems with current Sabs in one, single build.
(ps) The 4th, Concussive Strikes.. maybe they can dial back the daze duration to 2.0s, and then increase ICD to 6, making it 33% uptime, shorter from the previous 50% uptime...?
Stop making excuses. Be a man.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Post edited by kweassa on
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Comments
1) As much as I really really want to see my Scoundrel with DHS, it severely needs a nerf. I would suggest cutting the length of the DoT by a fourth. That way, if you run away, you don't get killed 11 seconds later, but the DPS isn't reduced if the enemy can keep applying it.
2) I can't really say: I think that most of the PvP TRs I'm seeing are Exe. It's kind of hard to tell the difference between their damage.
3) I object to permastealth in general, so yes, nerfs to OWTS are good in my book. Already my Scoundrel has almost 100% stealth uptime in PvP, just with Shadow Strike and rolling around. I actually wouldn't object to a PvP stealth duration reduction all around.
4) Yeah, Scoundrels have too many dazes in PvP. I wouldn't want the CD increased (so that you can trigger it to save yourself/someone else if need be), but having the duration reduced is something that I wouldn't mind.
D. Strike/ CoS is not really frequently used there (well Im a MI, but even as WK I would rarely use it) nerfing it will not affect PvE TRs much. Touch Sab damage bonuses/stealth refreshing and PvE TR is dead again.
stealth depletion is meaningless if i need to reapply it every 11 seconds...
it should ticks max 5 times and damage should be buffed of a 20%-30%
i am now playing a MI sab and i dont feel remotely OP, all my testing shows that now i have the possibility to kill and being killed by equally skilled players 50% of the time.
what i really love is that i can slot what ever encounter i feel like to use.
i m usually playing with ss, smoke bomb, dazing strike.
vs HR is another world i cant absolutely do ****s, so ss impact shot and bait and switch.
at will gloaming cut and cos to finish the enemy.
being forced to melee with no immunity is the counter, go near to hit them? accidentaly CCed? dead.
d.strike is 100% ******ed tho, 5 ticks should be enough and yes you should not be able to apply the debuff to multiple targets
Fewer and fewer players in it's name. Colossal power creep. New players stand no chance now. Just cater to new people. Don't feed the fat whales and pvp trolls.
Ranged PVE TR is viable now. Stop trying to ruin to fun out of it.
perma stealth should be removed nothing wrong with ranged TR, some people here doesnt want to :rolleyes:
Maybe stealth recharge from Sneaky Stabber, and Return to Shadows can be reduced in pvp ? 5% for Sneaky, and max 15% for RtS ?
In pvp, maybe piercings damages from Shadowy Opportunity can be reduced for at-wills ?
Sab tree is the stealth tree, with this tree, no need shadow strike+BnS, permastealth must be more hard to reach in pvp, but not impossible. Stealth is a part of rogues gameplay.
Scoundrel is funny. Roll with the Punches and Bloody Brawler needs a buff, Mocking Gesture must be replaced by a team/group support feat, or extra-damage/debuff against immunes targets.. maybe :
- You and your allies gain 2/4/6/8/10% Deflect Chance and 2/4/6/8/10% Deflect Severity for 10 seconds after entering stealth.
or
- your critical hits deal an additional 0.2/0.4/0.6/0.8/1 % Piercing Damages per points over 10 Dexterity against control immune targets. This effect does not stack. (piercings damages for Sabs, for Exes, but not for Scoundrels ?)
or
- Control immune foes deal 3/6/9/12/15 % less damage against you and your allies for 6 seconds when you deal a critical hit against this foe. This effect does not stack.
In pvp, maybe daze duration from concussive strike can be divided by 2 ?
For Executionners.. SoD need to be fixed in pve, must be applied to 6 seconds. May be don't need a fix in pvp ? 25% Arp from Exposed Weakness is a bit much, it's a pure pvp feat.
DHS is strong. 4 or 5 ticks in pvp is good, more.. it's OP.
Sorry for my poor english.
Stealth: Increase the range at which a stealthed TR or HR can be seen. This will make playing against them a bit less about random guessing, and should fix up the Sab tree.
Scoundrel: Concussive Strikes duration reduced a bit. Perhaps add in some survivability buffs if that somehow makes the Scoundrel underperform (which I really can't see if Skullcracker stays the same)
Executioner: At the moment, Exec isn't brokenly OP, but once SoD is working, it's going to melt everything. I would suggest that the SoD debuff be removed if you move too far away from the TR who applied it, so that in order to get the extra damage, the TR has to pick you as a target instead of just using PoTB and SB in your general vicinity.
WK: DHS duration reduced to 4 seconds. Already talked about this one, my opinion is still the same.
Instead of asking for overall nerfing, ask for changes to powers in PvP only - it can be done without affecting PvE. Non-specific nerfing if what killed he TR a while back - don't make the same mistakes again.
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!"
pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all."
looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
TRs are NOT OP in PvE now that SoD has been fixed. Kindly confine any tinkering required to 'balance' the minority pastime known as NW PvP to that tiny pond alone - with the possible exception of easy permastealth.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
At 4400 power (8800 with feat for one attack post stealth ) I've never 1 shotted anyone.
The problem here is likely the people one shorting have vorpal enchant.
That said, I'm kind of up in the air about Lashing Blade's longer cool-down verses its longer damage time. It's really, really hard to continue on and be sneaky when there are knives shooting out of the ground around you.
/10char
SAMOTHRACE
Trickster Rogue
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Why the **** do you roll a tr if you want it to play as a range class?! When i started this game i played a lot of pve but after 1000 of runs of doing the same dungeons over and over again i get rid of it (specially in nwo with its leak of content) so i started to play pvp and the silly thing is i dps most of you pve players out with a pvp build and no companions? So how is this possible?!? Because you guys dont know how to play your class and want that every ****ty build/encounter to be succesfull in every situation! (In pve you just dodge and dps thats all). Its a **** mmo there will be always a meta build for pvp or pve otherwise you cant balance the game! You want to play a range tr? You can! But deal with it that it will never deal as much damage as a cw or hr which is supposed to be a a ranged dmg dealer! And who cares about when i get out dps by cw or gf from my own guild? Does your grp fail if you got 100k less dmg than the others? Is there no loot at the end? dont get me wrong but there is still no 20k gs dungeons or some hardcore dungeons included in this game. If there would be some challenging end content i would support the balancing for pve because it would be necessary to complete it with every class. So why you guys say pvp guys destroy the game?all we want is balance! We dont need new gear and stuff! We dont ask for new content (maybe a new pvp map wow omg) and at the end we spend the most money in this game!(and yes we have to buy our gear because we suck at pve
My advise to all silly pve guys with "weak or nerfed to death" classes which cant find a group, join a guild! Tadaaaaa thats your balance/solution for pve! as long as there is no challenging pve content you have to test builds on the preview server to get useful! Its aint that hard slotting diffrent kind of equip, spend points on feats and compare the dmg you do with a mouse over at-will/encounters or simply watch the dmg log...i ask my mates from Black Turtle Gaming if we can run some dungeons with no gear at all and to prove this to you guys i will record it if this dont stop -.-
**** i had to say that! getting rid of you guys its always the same...you guys made me quit every game! The last game i quit was desiny and the "pve only" guys destroyed pvp completly! And destiny is a god **** shooter and that means for me pvp only!
Calm down...
now to the topic: like the most good trs i play as a mi/sab and there are two thing that needs to be towned down:
Glc which deals a ton of dmg combined with the right artifact weapon.
piercing dmg whick makes glc even worse and is the reason cos and bb deals a ton of dmg.
A possible solution would be to buff df about 20%. I know df makes already a ton of dmg but if you dicrease the piercing dmg from 75% to 50% and glc/strike also about 15-20% it would be more attractive to leave stealth to deal dmg. it needs more skill to land a df on a visible target than cos/disheartig strike/glc and gives other classes a chance to encounter and it would not affect pve that much except you dont use df and seriously what else should be used in pve? -.-
Edit: maybe the devs could change the 10% glc feat for real melee attacks like df or sly to not lose stealth that fast, because it takes time to land a df and it will increase your dmg in pvp and pve,longer 100% crit chance.
For scoundrels would be a option to dicrease the duration of skullcrackers cc so you cant "perma" daze your enemy to death but increase their dmg about 10-15%(depends on the buff of df) to make it vaiuble and less boring. I havent tested it that long because i saw other trs melting down hr/gf/gwf as sab with scoundrel it just takes too long to get them down except a cw woth no shield.
with those changes on sab and scoundrel we would be at a point a hr should be... A high risk skill based dmg dealer.
I havent played as exe because its no option in high end pvp.you can hit hard just once with first strike but after this you cant do anything for several seconds. And thats not the goal for pvp...if this tree works fine pve leave it as it is i never get one shotted by such a tr even in a 2vs1 and when i die it would be my fault its aint hard to dodge lb.
WK is also no option in high end pvp but i think its op in pug pvp but silly as **** if you have to use it to be sucessfull...
Deadpool // HR
Shakur // Tr
We need no balancing for pve, because its so freakin easy. Pvp on the other hand is the true challange in this game.
if you wanna crit damage you must stack crit stat so no more ignore crit and max pow and arpen build
change +25% defl sev with +5% defl sev each enemy within 15 feet max 25% def sev
you have stealth, imune cc, 5 long roll dodge;+25% defl sev in 1 on 1 fight is OP
make TR leave footprint when stealth at least when step on the node (include HR)
no more stand still and cap node without doing nothing
There we can get strong TR not OP TR
just my opinion
BnS
the insta-stealth refill function on BnS needs to go away. Instead, BnS should be a survivalist power that significantly helps the survival of the TR while it is visible
my suggestion would be: ■ BnS no longer refills the stealth meter ■ the 'roll' part of BnS (even when it does not happen visually due to jump-activation) now breaks CCs ■ as you roll backward, you enter a short stealth of 3 seconds ■ BnS still does not consume stealth when used from stealth ■ the BnS dummy now has HP/DR equal to that of its master ■ the radius of the "TRICKED" effect is increased to 25' ■ incoming attacks from a "TRICKED" enemy now has a 5% higher chance of being deflected ■ the DR of the dummy, and effects of "TRICKED" is now doubled when used from stealth
SS
duration of daze caused by SS used in stealth is now reduced to 2.5s (down from 4s)
activation speed of SS is now greatly increased
Disheartening Strike
DHS damage is now reduced by 40%
DHS ticks now runs at twice the speed for half the duration
Sab:Shadowy opportunity
Shadowy Opportunity: reduce damage. Currently, around little less than 6k power my SO procs for avergae 1.8k. The damage needs to be toned down to within acceptable levels, somewhere between Glyph damage and current levels. Ideally, around 800 per proc should be acceptable
Sab:OWtS
OWtS is now a persistent, passive effect that is always in effect and does not require activation
OWtS now permanently increases stealth meter regen speed by 20% when not in stealth
OWtS now permanently protects stealth meter from all damages
OWtS now permanently increases the deflection chance of the TR by 10% when not in stealth
OWtS now permanently increases the deflection severity of the TR by 10% when not in stealth
OWtS now permanently increases the movement speed of the TR by 10% when not in stealth
Sco:Concussive Strikes
Concussive Strikes now has a longer ICD of 6 seconds (up from 5s)
Concussive Strikes now has a shorter daze duration of 2 seconds (down from 2.5s), this duration is set and not effected by control resists
Sco:Skull Cracker
the initial daze duration of Skull Cracker effect is now reduced to 3 seconds (down from 4s)
the initial daze duration of Skull Cracker is set and not effected by control resists
movement speed buff of Skull Cracker is now increased to 30%
Should be enough. So no more BnS and OWtS for Sabs, but instead Sabs get to be Spider-man. Probably should be able to manage around 60~70% deflection chance with the new OWtS, and with the new BnS it will get a 2nd CC breaker if its a MI, as well as mini stealth, and the dummy will make its deflection chance go even higher upto 70~80% -- deflect severity now being 90% damage reduction on deflection.
...runs faster, and permanent stealth meter protection so nobody is going to force it out of stealth with damage, or stop him from going back into stealth after a given time -- without having to use the TenCon augment from the upcoming artifact offhand. It can use a different class feature.
IMO should be compensation enough while bringing up its performance upto survivable levels even when out of stealth.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
I feel the sab changes you indicate encroach too much on the scoundrel with the move speed and deflect (making it innately higher deflect than a scoundrel) combined with the natural stealth play survivability and superior damage the saboteur would be an easily better choice in virtually every situation.
You don't wanna build TR here but Terminator LOL
I think that the daze from stealth should be removed from SS entirely. That's Scoundrel territory, and honestly giving all TRs access to dazes probably wasn't the best decision that Cryptic's made. My suggestion would be to turn up the damage a little bit, and turn the shorter activation speed into the stealth effect.
Odd that you opted for a buff, even if a small one. I think that it could do without the extra complication, just leaving it at half-duration instead.
I think that the biggest necessary change to SO is that the damage be changed away from Piercing damage and get an internal cooldown for how often it can apply, like only once or twice per second. If the abuse cases and unfair armor-ignoring properties are taken away, I feel like it would be in a fair place.
I think that this homogenizes the paragons too much. This gives Sab superior defensive capabilities to the Scoundrel, and only equal footing with Exec for getting back into stealth. Especially if you're keeping the dazes on Sab encounters and reducing the Scoundrel dazes, the Sab tree suddenly does the Scoundrel's job almost as well as the Scoundrel, while also having more survivability and an extra passive slot (doesn't need Ten Con) and bonuses for being in stealth. This change would require a complete rework of the Scoundrel tree.
Removing the ability to resist the daze is a step backwards for counterplay. My suggestion would be to go the opposite direction; keep the present cooldown and duration, but make it be affected two or three times as much by control resist/tenacity. That way, if you really have trouble with a Scoundrel dazing you all the time, you can opt to counter him by changing your build.
Does Skullcracker have a movement speed buff? It's not listed in the tooltip, so I don't know. Regardless, I'm always willing to advocate for more movement speed!
Edit: Just checked on Preview, and it would seem that this IS where the speed buff comes from. Huh, I didn't notice that before, that's pretty cool.
Regardless, same thing I said for Concussive Strikes and OWtS.
for the dazes they could always shorten the duration on pvp.
For myself though I find when I get dazed its annoying but hardly crippling. I noticed when I daze people they just walk away. So why would we shortenva daze that's already near uselessly short?
A seperate issue is how much of the reports of 1 shot are p.vorpal? I noticed as executioner I sometimes nearly kill people but never 1 git kill healthy people. I don't have vorpal so was curious how much that's confusing things.