There is no problem with DC damage in end game PvP. From all the testing on preview and ~75 matches played so far, despite clerics being able to do noticeable damage now, there has not been anything out of line with it. I can understand why some of the lesser geared individuals are shocked at a well geared/experienced DC being able to kill them if going a DPS route now though, but that is an irrelevant viewpoint.
There is no problem with DC damage in end game PvP
Ok so what your saying is that if the others 99% has a problem that is not a problem because in the 1% of the game where you play its ok?
I have no problem with 10kgs or below Trs so they are ok then, your argument are brilliant indeed good sir....
Ok so what your saying is that if the others 99% has a problem that is not a problem because in the 1% of the game where you play its ok?
I have no problem with 10kgs or below Trs so they are ok then, your argument are brilliant indeed good sir....
I took a look at the leaderboards today to see. Yeah, I see some DCs have some nice KDRs. No, I do not see anything out of line with their KDRs compared to other classes. Just because a class has only had support options in the past, why is it so bad now when they have an option to be on par with others with a more direct offensive role?
I was halfway up page one yesterday. I fell, but am still on it today after not PvP-ing for the past day and a half. I checked my matches too, and I am just shy of 100. (Also note this is not the account, "@", I have been using in game) Either way, you are supposed to use the 1% argument when talking about premades or maxed players, where as I only pug matches anymore, but still get mixed in with some top premades now and again from matchmaking. I am also only 17k GS, so nothing too exceptional there to put me in your 1%.
Not that it matters anyway. It is just a game, I am just voicing my opinion, please learn to have a little respect for that and also realize it is only someone else's opinion, so no need to take such offense to it or rebuttal in such a cruel manner.
I may not have the perfect opinion or have run into someone using the build you seem so concerned about, but from my knowledge playing since beta, extensive time on the preview server testing changes before they came, ~100 matches played since the release, and merely reviewing the statistics on the leaderboard, I see no reason why my opinion is not justified and worthy of expressing.
Thank you for sharing your brilliant response good sir
I took a look at the leaderboards today to see. Yeah, I see some DCs have some nice KDRs. No, I do not see anything out of line with their KDRs compared to other classes. Just because a class has only had support options in the past, why is it so bad now when they have an option to be on par with others with a more direct offensive role?
Who said it was bad, imho if you want to play a nuke class dc maby should fall in the wrong category. I rather see them as heavy debuffers or some other sort of support role but its not uncommon for clerics to be able to applay some serious dam in other games.
It is however not a good idea to make them be able to single target dam so they are better then cw at it in pvp, or?
Not that it matters anyway. It is just a game, I am just voicing my opinion, please learn to have a little respect for that and also realize it is only someone else's opinion, so no need to take such offense to it or rebuttal in such a cruel manner.
True enough I maby came to the wrong cunclution that you where in the end game and defended things from that perspective, my bad in that case..
I may not have the perfect opinion or have run into someone using the build you seem so concerned about, but from my knowledge playing since beta, extensive time on the preview server testing changes before they came, ~100 matches played since the release, and merely reviewing the statistics on the leaderboard, I see no reason why my opinion is not justified and worthy of expressing.
Yes and no if you *defend something exclusively from the end game perspective (whish you do in that text) it becomes open for the Interpretation that you think its ok because its ok in bis premade vs bis premade.
That being said nuking dc that cant heal for sh*it well cant say am against it just makes for multible playstyle with 1 character whish must be a good thing considering the heavy investment to have several these days.
What I am against is mesuring the game from a end game perspective that represent 1 % of the total population.
Thank you for sharing your brilliant response good sir
I hope this is more to your likeing even if not brillant :cool:
DCs can knock me away through unstoppable and sprint which shouldn't be happening. Also, today I saw a DC afking on a node and I was unable to kill him. True story.
Healers should provide support for the team, sure. But they should be rather squishy on their own and not the best tanks in the whole game as they are now. Now they are not balanced at all.
10/10, would read again. Mexican telenovellas have no chances with you guys around.
Lol. The actor playing Pedo83 with his delusional arrogance actually reminded me of Mexican Mental Midget Wrastlin', good job. Maybe we can rename the thread "Lucha Libre del No tiene dos dedos de frente" in honor of our troll friends.
Who said it was bad, imho if you want to play a nuke class dc maby should fall in the wrong category. I rather see them as heavy debuffers or some other sort of support role but its not uncommon for clerics to be able to applay some serious dam in other games.
It is however not a good idea to make them be able to single target dam so they are better then cw at it in pvp, or?
True enough I maby came to the wrong cunclution that you where in the end game and defended things from that perspective, my bad in that case..
Yes and no if you *defend something exclusively from the end game perspective (whish you do in that text) it becomes open for the Interpretation that you think its ok because its ok in bis premade vs bis premade.
That being said nuking dc that cant heal for sh*it well cant say am against it just makes for multible playstyle with 1 character whish must be a good thing considering the heavy investment to have several these days.
What I am against is mesuring the game from a end game perspective that represent 1 % of the total population.
I hope this is more to your likeing even if not brillant :cool:
This illuminates my original point. You say, "imho if you want to play a nuke class dc maybe (you) ... fall in the wrong category" That is just the point I was trying to make though. Despite clerics being directly classified and played as strictly support characters in the past, there is no reason they shouldn't also have viable capabilities solo as a damage dealer if one wishes to play it in such a way. Other classes are given options as well if they want to specialize in tanking, healing, control, damage, ect. Why cannot a DC who is willing to sacrifice some of their defensive/support capabilities be able to take a more damage based route as well? Why should other classes such as GF/GWF have tank based builds/classifications despite still outputting so much damage but we feel a DC should not be able to do significant damage despite giving up their support/healing/defensive capabilities for damage?
You admit you see nothing wrong with the situation except that DCs can have high damage. I guess it is just a difference of opinion that any class should be viable to be built the way one chooses, whether that is damage, support, tanking, healing, control, ect, of which I think the new DC damage capabilities does a nice job of adding.
As far as your 1% fiasco, that is a straight up BS random statistic people decided recently to start using to whip out whenever they feel like someone more experienced is sharing their opinions so that they can feel justified in claiming whatever they say as correct. I could understand it if I was 23k+ GS, active in premades, potting up every match, ect. I'm not. I am just an average, 17k GS guy like the rest of you solo queuing that just happens to do better than most and who plays a lot. I've never had a legendary artifact, I've never even had 1 piece of artifact equipment yet. I'm using more of an "average guy" setup and as a result of solo queue, I am most of the time playing other "average" people, despite being at the top of the leaderboard. I realize maybe 17k GS could be a bit higher than most, but my setup is not too far of a stretch for a decent active player once they get going. Don't try to classify me as one of those completely end game, BiS, premade only die hard PvP players who is playing a different game than you just to try to make your opinion look more valid than mine, because that isn't the case. Or are you telling me that all 17k GS solo queue-rs are already in the super elite 1% of the PvP community?
There is a difference between the 1% argument you are referring to and "end game". I think that is where the confusion is. While I consider myself to be involved in "end game PvP" because I have a decent enough gear/gearscore/experience and perform well enough, I do not consider myself your 1% because of the above reasons. For me, "end game" simply means you are experienced and have the stats/performance to back it up. Perhaps I should find a way to put it more lightly than "end game" if the term is misleading then.
However, I do appreciate you elaborating so we can have an intelligent discussion about the matter rather than simply harshly stating you disagree with no further justification.
This is the problem with class balance in this game..they made too much option for classes, enough for it to deviate from the true purpose of the class. Not that bringing in the option is bad but they need to balance it so classes do not lose their purpose. For example, SW can heal party with LS. DC can heal party too. So they need to make sure that SW heal is not as effective as DC heal as DC is the main healer class. Next is DC is able to DPS but its not as good as other dps class like CW, HR etc. Cryptic need to sort this out IMO. So the class doesnt loose it direction and purpose. I mean the main purpose i play DC to heal and support the team not as DPS. If i wanted to DPS i would play other dps class like TR,HR, CW or something.
Although there are some overpowered DCs who can almost one-shot you. When I can with more probability kill a GF than a DC, I sense something is rotten in this realm. But I haven't seen it too often just yet.
DCs can knock me away through unstoppable and sprint which shouldn't be happening. Also, today I saw a DC afking on a node and I was unable to kill him. True story.
Healers should provide support for the team, sure. But they should be rather squishy on their own and not the best tanks in the whole game as they are now. Now they are not balanced at all.
This is not logical.
What you say is DC must heal the team and support it, while being "rather squishy".
Now, in PvP this means DC gets on node, heals 1 time, gets killed in few seconds by usual focus DPS, and that's all his "support" since dead toons can't heal or DPS. A squishy cleric is like module 4 DC and is of no use.
A tank-healer must be quite tanky as i said, to the point that if it's a full tank with no offensive capabilities, you must not be able to kill him either in 1v1. Cause he can't kill you.
Being a full tank, in a group fight must be able to tank, as his name suggests, through the fight. Being a full tank and considering no build is full DPS in PvP, it's not weird that a full tank-healer DC can tank multiple damage and requires you and your team to actually use your brain and CC-focus him to prevent him from using at-wills and empower his encounters.
Where DC must be toned down is the ability to make his team immortal while it should just bring support and make his team overall more survivable.
But for a support tank-healer DC priority is to survive/ tank, then give support and debuff enemies, the if there's room do something else like puny attacks and may be use daily to prone 1 enemy. A dead DC can't heal or support.
What has to be fixed is the ability to 2-shot enemies when specced for DPS and make his group immortal. Anything else, is fine or just need a small tone down.
Also, you didn't tell us your gear and the DC gear. If he was AFK he was just out-healing you with sheer regeneration.
Which makes me think you are low geared or have low DPS and the DC was a overgeared full tank. Vanilla DC out of his protections/ heals is not hard to kill.
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aaablacklady9Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 81Arc User
edited November 2014
I still don't understand why people complain about the Heal of the Healing class -.-I don't complain about the DPS of a CW or a GWF, or about the GF insane block -.- Dc are supposed to heal, so if we heal too much people cry, if we heal too low people cry, if we heal people cry -.-... c'mon guys, all the time a module come live there a lot of expert pvp player come around and say how much other class are OP and how much the class they use is a total **** for them >.> I'm fine if they tone down the empowered AS, but don't touch the Gif of Faith. If that feats get toned, nerfed or get an ICD we have to trash the whole faithfull feats. Why? Because all the faithfull player have -35% to healing and lose all the regeneration DoT from healing skill. I think's no one of you didn't even read the tooltips of that feats -.-Dc don't have an insane healing power, if you let them store the healing is normal you see 100-200k (and i think's that isn't real but another bull**** just for ask nerf). You need to CC dc and take them down, no more Rambo mode, you need now some skill too in pvp and that's is good.
That is just the point I was trying to make though. Despite clerics being directly classified and played as strictly support characters in the past, there is no reason they shouldn't also have viable capabilities solo as a damage dealer if one wishes to play it in such a way. Other classes are given options as well if they want to specialize in tanking, healing, control, damage, ect. Why cannot a DC who is willing to sacrifice some of their defensive/support capabilities be able to take a more damage based route as well?
There is a differance between support classes and other classes that needs to have some form of balace for several reasons.
2 classes in this game so far can heal other group members(we dont count minor heals that dont matters like Hrs etc) and thats dc and sw.
Sws heals are dependent on how much dps he can poor out while dc is pure healing.
The sw has to sacrifice his high dps to be able to group heal and its healing are effective in pve but not in pvp.
When it come to healing the dc stands alone among all classes whish means he has something to add that no other class has that makes him/her unique.
When it come to damage all other classes share that ability but applay the damage differently.
Range or melee aoe or direct dam etc etc.
In some games you can build your character from scratch all chare the same basics and as you pick feat skills and powers you develop certain abilitys such as healing spellcasting tanking archery etc.
NW is not such a game you pick a class that has some distinct attributs from the start be it either range melee magic or healing.
Now one can argue that if you want to play in a certain way its a good thing for multitude options, that is a cw that can become extreme in tanking and a gf with control and healing.
The thing is that no other class can take the dcs role when it comes to group support in the healing department(yes sw can to some extent depending on the set up in pve dungeons but lack the direct heal alot to save the day heals).
If you allow the dc to become a nuking machine it can be argued that you should allow some of the classes to have the option to heal more as if you take in a dc in the party you have no idea if he is going to heal or nuke.
Myself i love the idea that you have a dc that can become either healing or nuke but i can see the problems with it in this game and it might be a better way to divide the dc into 2 classes as many other games has done.
In Age of conan you have 2 priest one of Mitra that protects and heals and one of Tempest that is more debuff and melee aoe.
Anyhow, having dc run around nuking better then cws in pvp while healing the hole party better then any other class can might not be the best of ideas unless that direction goes toward the hole spectra of classes in case we might follow a very good paht indeed.
This is the problem with class balance in this game..they made too much option for classes, enough for it to deviate from the true purpose of the class. Not that bringing in the option is bad but they need to balance it so classes do not lose their purpose. For example, SW can heal party with LS. DC can heal party too. So they need to make sure that SW heal is not as effective as DC heal as DC is the main healer class. Next is DC is able to DPS but its not as good as other dps class like CW, HR etc. Cryptic need to sort this out IMO. So the class doesnt loose it direction and purpose. I mean the main purpose i play DC to heal and support the team not as DPS. If i wanted to DPS i would play other dps class like TR,HR, CW or something.
And here's the main issue with your comment: a DC can't be good dps class because its a support class? What is a CW then? People forget that the top PvE class(at least from beta til mod4) shoudve been support first, dps second. The only primary dps classes are HR, TR, SW, GWF. People do want to diverge from their primary roles. DCs want to deal damage, GFs want to deal damage, CWs want to deal damage. The problem is, for the longest time only CWs were afforded this luxury... Not to mention became greatest all around class for it. Now that the other classes that took backseat have a shot, egotistical people are ticked. Not everyone wants to be stuck in a class role, and not everyone wants to "just roll a dps class then".
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
Not everyone wants to be stuck in a class role, and not everyone wants to "just roll a dps class then".
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Well you pick a game where you can be become everthing then :-)
Some classes can be more varied in their options but as long as we have certain classes it has to be a point in them being good at different things or it looses its meaning to have more then one.
If the support classes can become as good as the dps classes at doing dps why even bother with dps classes at all...
If you shose to play a game that is build in distinct roles when such NW you very well have to get used to that dps classes are better at doing dam then support classes imho.
1. DC DPS in PvP
2. DC healing to others
3. Sunburst ignoring CC immunity
Things I would like to stay the same:
1. DC survivability (it is still easy to get killed quickly by burst DPS classes that know how to combo)
2. The ability to heal -to a reasonable extent- others in PvP
If a DC can't kill anything on a node, I think it's fair they should be able to hold 1v1 against most classes. I also think that, as a support class, they should be tanky; otherwise they can't provide support. The support they provide, however, should not make everyone on a node practically invincible the way it does now.
At the same time, when there is so much burst damage in PvP that people can get killed with a well-timed rotation or with a big daily, burst healing is also good for a DC to have. It just shouldn't affect all players on a node.
1. DC DPS in PvP
2. DC healing to others
3. Sunburst ignoring CC immunity
Things I would like to stay the same:
1. DC survivability (it is still easy to get killed quickly by burst DPS classes that know how to combo)
2. The ability to heal -to a reasonable extent- others in PvP
If a DC can't kill anything on a node, I think it's fair they should be able to hold 1v1 against most classes. I also think that, as a support class, they should be tanky; otherwise they can't provide support. The support they provide, however, should not make everyone on a node practically invincible the way it does now.
At the same time, when there is so much burst damage in PvP that people can get killed with a well-timed rotation or with a big daily, burst healing is also good for a DC to have. It just shouldn't affect all players on a node.
DC is a healer, not a tank. His healing to others should stay the same and self survivability nerfed a great deal.
Well you pick a game where you can be become everthing then :-)
Some classes can be more varied in their options but as long as we have certain classes it has to be a point in them being good at different things or it loses its meaning to have more then one.
If the support classes can become as good as the dps classes at doing dps why even bother with dps classes at all...
and yet, why is it okay then for CWs to be top damage then? they are a support class, yet have topped damage charts from beta til mod4(HRs had their shot too when they came out, yet the nerf QQs didn't make that last long).
Not to mention that dps classes are wanted WAY more in this game than support classes. When the SW temptation paths were found out to have superior healing than DCs, people started wanting them more than DCs! Why take a DC who can at best debuff an enemy, when you can take an SW that not only heals the party, but also dps'es the bosses more effectively?! When the dps class can often kill dungeons faster than support classes are needed to help them, why choose a support class at all...
.If you chose to play a game that is build in distinct roles when such NW you very well have to get used to that dps classes are better at doing dam then support classes imho.
and that's fine. dps classes SHOULD do more damage... but how often do you see HR, TR, GWF beat CWs in damage?(SW still does(for now), but not for long as wave after wave of nerf QQing comes in)
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
DC is a healer, not a tank. His healing to others should stay the same and self survivability nerfed a great deal.
Yea, does that not work other ways? CW is a cloth wearing controller, but shouldn't be able to 1 rotation people either... or tank. Yet, all I ever hear is complaints about those exact 2 things... you cant say "oh, this guy cant do multiple things... but these guys are allowed to". That's not balance...
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
and yet, why is it okay then for CWs to be top damage then? they are a support class
Wizards are not a support class in D&D. CW is just a Wizard that specialises in control spells, and in D&D control includes AoE damage. There is an argument that their ST DPS is maybe a little high but that's down to PvP considerations.
DC is a healer, not a tank. His healing to others should stay the same and self survivability nerfed a great deal.
I'm sorry but this is nonsense. A healer that dies all the time is no use to anyone. In any case, DCs already have their self-healing nerfed 30% compared to their heals on others - it would be spectacularly unfair to also nerf their self-buffs. And not at all in line with their D&D role where they can off-tank with the right gear and spec.
Wizards are not a support class in D&D. CW is just a Wizard that specialises in control spells, and in D&D control includes AoE damage. There is an argument that their ST DPS is maybe a little high but that's down to PvP considerations.
True twilight. imo I consider them more control than damage though. So, how is it they can have their cake and eat it too, but when changes come along that allow other classes to do the same, its wrong for them to? CWs basically have everything but tanking under their notch, and theres even some CWs specced for that!
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
True twilight. imo I consider them more control than damage though. So, how is it they can have their cake and eat it too, but when changes come along that allow other classes to do the same, its wrong for them to? CWs basically have everything but tanking under their notch, and theres even some CWs specced for that!
Wizards in D&D at the equivalent power of a 60 CW in NWO are pretty much the most powerful of characters and incredibly versatile. It's always going to be difficult representing that in game in a balanced way. That said, there were a few mistakes made in the last balance pass IMO. I'm not suggesting CW is perfectly balanced right now but it's not as far off as some people think. And it could be even better balanced if not for the way PvP works in NWO. The original balance pass had a large nerf to ST DPS that would have helped a lot to balance PvE but made them useless in PvP so it got rolled back. Likewise casting times.
and yet, why is it okay then for CWs to be top damage then? they are a support class, yet have topped damage charts from beta til mod4(HRs had their shot too when they came out, yet the nerf QQs didn't make that last long).
Not to mention that dps classes are wanted WAY more in this game than support classes. When the SW temptation paths were found out to have superior healing than DCs, people started wanting them more than DCs! Why take a DC who can at best debuff an enemy, when you can take an SW that not only heals the party, but also dps'es the bosses more effectively?! When the dps class can often kill dungeons faster than support classes are needed to help them, why choose a support class at all...
and that's fine. dps classes SHOULD do more damage... but how often do you see HR, TR, GWF beat CWs in damage?(SW still does(for now), but not for long as wave after wave of nerf QQing comes in)
This is why i mention earlier..cryptic should work on making class role more distictive. Making SW able to heal but not as good as DC. They should make SW role more to debuffing since they introduce as a debuff class when it 1st release. They should re-evaluate the class role and work to improve towards that direction instead of just mixing everything up till player lost the idea of playing as specific class.
And Btw, CW isnt a pure support class like DC. They are meant to dps. Supporting with CC and buff is just their secondary role. U shouldnt be looking at Paingiver chart to determind the dps. CW dps come from multiple target. 5k dmg on 10x mob is not the same with 40k dmg on a single mob. Every GWF, HR or TR know that. Paingiver chart is not everything. Well lets not off topic by disscussing PVE stuff. Thing is bout PVP.
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aaablacklady9Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 81Arc User
edited November 2014
People should learn how to face class, not ask for nerf just because they don't know how to kill them. We are supposed to Heal, so let's us heal and sotp bore about it
This is why i mention earlier..cryptic should work on making class role more distictive. Making SW able to heal but not as good as DC. They should make SW role more to debuffing since they introduce as a debuff class when it 1st release. They should re-evaluate the class role and work to improve towards that direction instead of just mixing everything up till player lost the idea of playing as specific class.
And Btw, CW isnt a pure support class like DC. They are meant to dps. Supporting with CC and buff is just their secondary role. U shouldnt be looking at Paingiver chart to determind the dps. CW dps come from multiple target. 5k dmg on 10x mob is not the same with 40k dmg on a single mob. Every GWF, HR or TR know that. Paingiver chart is not everything. Well lets not off topic by disscussing PVE stuff. Thing is bout PVP.
That's the problem though. Too many people DO believe in the charts... at least for the wrong reasons. Once again, going back to my question, CWs aren't pure support, but do more damage than pure dps classes(HR, GWF, TR)... how is that fair? Whats to say that a dps cleric makes that cleric a striker first, supporter second class? They give up a good bit of healing just to do this! I already know how damage works, ive played since beta. If a GF wants to do more damage, not only will they lose some of their tanking, but also their defender playstyle. GWFs were giving up some of their damage to be tanky(Iron Vanguard). While initially broken, its becoming more and more balanced, allowing you to sacrifice dps to become an off tank, or sacrifice tankiness to dps(although, once again, STILL not as good as CW). SW- if you go damnation or fury, youre a dps machine... if you go temptation, you give up some of your dps to become an off cleric. See the pattern here? Classes give up things to be more versatile, except the CW.
As far as dungeons, AoE dps classes are the primary classes wanted in dungeons, and CWs offer the best... Paingiver charts are NOT everything. But too many people look at damage PERIOD as everything.
As far as PvP, the history of DCs and complaints about them shows... They heal too much? complained about and nerfed. They do decent damage? complained about and nerfed. They STILL heal too much? lets introduce a word just for how much were weakening them(healing depression). They heal too much again, and now do decent damage? nerf once again. See a pattern here?
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
Wizards in D&D at the equivalent power of a 60 CW in NWO are pretty much the most powerful of characters and incredibly versatile. It's always going to be difficult representing that in game in a balanced way. That said, there were a few mistakes made in the last balance pass IMO. I'm not suggesting CW is perfectly balanced right now but it's not as far off as some people think. And it could be even better balanced if not for the way PvP works in NWO. The original balance pass had a large nerf to ST DPS that would have helped a lot to balance PvE but made them useless in PvP so it got rolled back. Likewise casting times.
but by the end of it, the only weakness CWs had was that theyre not tanky... but other classes have their weaknesses, do they not? DCs(until now) weren't capable of healing that much(lifesteal/regen was considered actually superior for quite some time), couldn't cc(1 power that held for a few seconds at most lol), couldn't deal any decent damage(the "murder cleric" builds were nerfed into oblivion,), and went down fast when targeted by even 1 CW. CWs complain that TRs saw them as any easy kill, but I knew plenty of CWs who viewed DCs as an easy kill too. Admittedly, myself included...
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
People should learn how to face class, not ask for nerf just because they don't know how to kill them. We are supposed to Heal, so let's us heal and sotp bore about it
What a hypocrite. Not every class has a dozen of CCs and high damage encounters they can abuse to kill one (ONE!) class, even in 1v2, or 1v5 (if the DC has a proper PvP build). And even if they had, Gift of Faith activates even if you're CCd. A DC can literally afk and still live for a couple of minutes in PvP. I've seen it happen.
And yes, you're supposed to heal, but not tank, control (which goes through CC immunities, btw), buff/debuff and heal at the same time, all to extents unreachable by any other class.
Comments
Tell me more about this SW build! :cool:
I have no problem with 10kgs or below Trs so they are ok then, your argument are brilliant indeed good sir....
I took a look at the leaderboards today to see. Yeah, I see some DCs have some nice KDRs. No, I do not see anything out of line with their KDRs compared to other classes. Just because a class has only had support options in the past, why is it so bad now when they have an option to be on par with others with a more direct offensive role?
I was halfway up page one yesterday. I fell, but am still on it today after not PvP-ing for the past day and a half. I checked my matches too, and I am just shy of 100. (Also note this is not the account, "@", I have been using in game) Either way, you are supposed to use the 1% argument when talking about premades or maxed players, where as I only pug matches anymore, but still get mixed in with some top premades now and again from matchmaking. I am also only 17k GS, so nothing too exceptional there to put me in your 1%.
Not that it matters anyway. It is just a game, I am just voicing my opinion, please learn to have a little respect for that and also realize it is only someone else's opinion, so no need to take such offense to it or rebuttal in such a cruel manner.
I may not have the perfect opinion or have run into someone using the build you seem so concerned about, but from my knowledge playing since beta, extensive time on the preview server testing changes before they came, ~100 matches played since the release, and merely reviewing the statistics on the leaderboard, I see no reason why my opinion is not justified and worthy of expressing.
Thank you for sharing your brilliant response good sir
Who said it was bad, imho if you want to play a nuke class dc maby should fall in the wrong category. I rather see them as heavy debuffers or some other sort of support role but its not uncommon for clerics to be able to applay some serious dam in other games.
It is however not a good idea to make them be able to single target dam so they are better then cw at it in pvp, or?
True enough I maby came to the wrong cunclution that you where in the end game and defended things from that perspective, my bad in that case..
Yes and no if you *defend something exclusively from the end game perspective (whish you do in that text) it becomes open for the Interpretation that you think its ok because its ok in bis premade vs bis premade.
That being said nuking dc that cant heal for sh*it well cant say am against it just makes for multible playstyle with 1 character whish must be a good thing considering the heavy investment to have several these days.
What I am against is mesuring the game from a end game perspective that represent 1 % of the total population.
I hope this is more to your likeing even if not brillant :cool:
Healers should provide support for the team, sure. But they should be rather squishy on their own and not the best tanks in the whole game as they are now. Now they are not balanced at all.
10/10, would read again. Mexican telenovellas have no chances with you guys around.
Lol. The actor playing Pedo83 with his delusional arrogance actually reminded me of Mexican Mental Midget Wrastlin', good job. Maybe we can rename the thread "Lucha Libre del No tiene dos dedos de frente" in honor of our troll friends.
This illuminates my original point. You say, "imho if you want to play a nuke class dc maybe (you) ... fall in the wrong category" That is just the point I was trying to make though. Despite clerics being directly classified and played as strictly support characters in the past, there is no reason they shouldn't also have viable capabilities solo as a damage dealer if one wishes to play it in such a way. Other classes are given options as well if they want to specialize in tanking, healing, control, damage, ect. Why cannot a DC who is willing to sacrifice some of their defensive/support capabilities be able to take a more damage based route as well? Why should other classes such as GF/GWF have tank based builds/classifications despite still outputting so much damage but we feel a DC should not be able to do significant damage despite giving up their support/healing/defensive capabilities for damage?
You admit you see nothing wrong with the situation except that DCs can have high damage. I guess it is just a difference of opinion that any class should be viable to be built the way one chooses, whether that is damage, support, tanking, healing, control, ect, of which I think the new DC damage capabilities does a nice job of adding.
As far as your 1% fiasco, that is a straight up BS random statistic people decided recently to start using to whip out whenever they feel like someone more experienced is sharing their opinions so that they can feel justified in claiming whatever they say as correct. I could understand it if I was 23k+ GS, active in premades, potting up every match, ect. I'm not. I am just an average, 17k GS guy like the rest of you solo queuing that just happens to do better than most and who plays a lot. I've never had a legendary artifact, I've never even had 1 piece of artifact equipment yet. I'm using more of an "average guy" setup and as a result of solo queue, I am most of the time playing other "average" people, despite being at the top of the leaderboard. I realize maybe 17k GS could be a bit higher than most, but my setup is not too far of a stretch for a decent active player once they get going. Don't try to classify me as one of those completely end game, BiS, premade only die hard PvP players who is playing a different game than you just to try to make your opinion look more valid than mine, because that isn't the case. Or are you telling me that all 17k GS solo queue-rs are already in the super elite 1% of the PvP community?
There is a difference between the 1% argument you are referring to and "end game". I think that is where the confusion is. While I consider myself to be involved in "end game PvP" because I have a decent enough gear/gearscore/experience and perform well enough, I do not consider myself your 1% because of the above reasons. For me, "end game" simply means you are experienced and have the stats/performance to back it up. Perhaps I should find a way to put it more lightly than "end game" if the term is misleading then.
However, I do appreciate you elaborating so we can have an intelligent discussion about the matter rather than simply harshly stating you disagree with no further justification.
Haha, THIS, pretty much.
Although there are some overpowered DCs who can almost one-shot you. When I can with more probability kill a GF than a DC, I sense something is rotten in this realm. But I haven't seen it too often just yet.
This is not logical.
What you say is DC must heal the team and support it, while being "rather squishy".
Now, in PvP this means DC gets on node, heals 1 time, gets killed in few seconds by usual focus DPS, and that's all his "support" since dead toons can't heal or DPS. A squishy cleric is like module 4 DC and is of no use.
A tank-healer must be quite tanky as i said, to the point that if it's a full tank with no offensive capabilities, you must not be able to kill him either in 1v1. Cause he can't kill you.
Being a full tank, in a group fight must be able to tank, as his name suggests, through the fight. Being a full tank and considering no build is full DPS in PvP, it's not weird that a full tank-healer DC can tank multiple damage and requires you and your team to actually use your brain and CC-focus him to prevent him from using at-wills and empower his encounters.
Where DC must be toned down is the ability to make his team immortal while it should just bring support and make his team overall more survivable.
But for a support tank-healer DC priority is to survive/ tank, then give support and debuff enemies, the if there's room do something else like puny attacks and may be use daily to prone 1 enemy. A dead DC can't heal or support.
What has to be fixed is the ability to 2-shot enemies when specced for DPS and make his group immortal. Anything else, is fine or just need a small tone down.
Also, you didn't tell us your gear and the DC gear. If he was AFK he was just out-healing you with sheer regeneration.
Which makes me think you are low geared or have low DPS and the DC was a overgeared full tank. Vanilla DC out of his protections/ heals is not hard to kill.
There is a differance between support classes and other classes that needs to have some form of balace for several reasons.
2 classes in this game so far can heal other group members(we dont count minor heals that dont matters like Hrs etc) and thats dc and sw.
Sws heals are dependent on how much dps he can poor out while dc is pure healing.
The sw has to sacrifice his high dps to be able to group heal and its healing are effective in pve but not in pvp.
When it come to healing the dc stands alone among all classes whish means he has something to add that no other class has that makes him/her unique.
When it come to damage all other classes share that ability but applay the damage differently.
Range or melee aoe or direct dam etc etc.
In some games you can build your character from scratch all chare the same basics and as you pick feat skills and powers you develop certain abilitys such as healing spellcasting tanking archery etc.
NW is not such a game you pick a class that has some distinct attributs from the start be it either range melee magic or healing.
Now one can argue that if you want to play in a certain way its a good thing for multitude options, that is a cw that can become extreme in tanking and a gf with control and healing.
The thing is that no other class can take the dcs role when it comes to group support in the healing department(yes sw can to some extent depending on the set up in pve dungeons but lack the direct heal alot to save the day heals).
If you allow the dc to become a nuking machine it can be argued that you should allow some of the classes to have the option to heal more as if you take in a dc in the party you have no idea if he is going to heal or nuke.
Myself i love the idea that you have a dc that can become either healing or nuke but i can see the problems with it in this game and it might be a better way to divide the dc into 2 classes as many other games has done.
In Age of conan you have 2 priest one of Mitra that protects and heals and one of Tempest that is more debuff and melee aoe.
Anyhow, having dc run around nuking better then cws in pvp while healing the hole party better then any other class can might not be the best of ideas unless that direction goes toward the hole spectra of classes in case we might follow a very good paht indeed.
Best
And here's the main issue with your comment: a DC can't be good dps class because its a support class? What is a CW then? People forget that the top PvE class(at least from beta til mod4) shoudve been support first, dps second. The only primary dps classes are HR, TR, SW, GWF. People do want to diverge from their primary roles. DCs want to deal damage, GFs want to deal damage, CWs want to deal damage. The problem is, for the longest time only CWs were afforded this luxury... Not to mention became greatest all around class for it. Now that the other classes that took backseat have a shot, egotistical people are ticked. Not everyone wants to be stuck in a class role, and not everyone wants to "just roll a dps class then".
Well you pick a game where you can be become everthing then :-)
Some classes can be more varied in their options but as long as we have certain classes it has to be a point in them being good at different things or it looses its meaning to have more then one.
If the support classes can become as good as the dps classes at doing dps why even bother with dps classes at all...
If you shose to play a game that is build in distinct roles when such NW you very well have to get used to that dps classes are better at doing dam then support classes imho.
1. DC DPS in PvP
2. DC healing to others
3. Sunburst ignoring CC immunity
Things I would like to stay the same:
1. DC survivability (it is still easy to get killed quickly by burst DPS classes that know how to combo)
2. The ability to heal -to a reasonable extent- others in PvP
If a DC can't kill anything on a node, I think it's fair they should be able to hold 1v1 against most classes. I also think that, as a support class, they should be tanky; otherwise they can't provide support. The support they provide, however, should not make everyone on a node practically invincible the way it does now.
At the same time, when there is so much burst damage in PvP that people can get killed with a well-timed rotation or with a big daily, burst healing is also good for a DC to have. It just shouldn't affect all players on a node.
DC is a healer, not a tank. His healing to others should stay the same and self survivability nerfed a great deal.
and yet, why is it okay then for CWs to be top damage then? they are a support class, yet have topped damage charts from beta til mod4(HRs had their shot too when they came out, yet the nerf QQs didn't make that last long).
Not to mention that dps classes are wanted WAY more in this game than support classes. When the SW temptation paths were found out to have superior healing than DCs, people started wanting them more than DCs! Why take a DC who can at best debuff an enemy, when you can take an SW that not only heals the party, but also dps'es the bosses more effectively?! When the dps class can often kill dungeons faster than support classes are needed to help them, why choose a support class at all...
and that's fine. dps classes SHOULD do more damage... but how often do you see HR, TR, GWF beat CWs in damage?(SW still does(for now), but not for long as wave after wave of nerf QQing comes in)
Yea, does that not work other ways? CW is a cloth wearing controller, but shouldn't be able to 1 rotation people either... or tank. Yet, all I ever hear is complaints about those exact 2 things... you cant say "oh, this guy cant do multiple things... but these guys are allowed to". That's not balance...
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
True twilight. imo I consider them more control than damage though. So, how is it they can have their cake and eat it too, but when changes come along that allow other classes to do the same, its wrong for them to? CWs basically have everything but tanking under their notch, and theres even some CWs specced for that!
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
This is why i mention earlier..cryptic should work on making class role more distictive. Making SW able to heal but not as good as DC. They should make SW role more to debuffing since they introduce as a debuff class when it 1st release. They should re-evaluate the class role and work to improve towards that direction instead of just mixing everything up till player lost the idea of playing as specific class.
And Btw, CW isnt a pure support class like DC. They are meant to dps. Supporting with CC and buff is just their secondary role. U shouldnt be looking at Paingiver chart to determind the dps. CW dps come from multiple target. 5k dmg on 10x mob is not the same with 40k dmg on a single mob. Every GWF, HR or TR know that. Paingiver chart is not everything. Well lets not off topic by disscussing PVE stuff. Thing is bout PVP.
That's the problem though. Too many people DO believe in the charts... at least for the wrong reasons. Once again, going back to my question, CWs aren't pure support, but do more damage than pure dps classes(HR, GWF, TR)... how is that fair? Whats to say that a dps cleric makes that cleric a striker first, supporter second class? They give up a good bit of healing just to do this! I already know how damage works, ive played since beta. If a GF wants to do more damage, not only will they lose some of their tanking, but also their defender playstyle. GWFs were giving up some of their damage to be tanky(Iron Vanguard). While initially broken, its becoming more and more balanced, allowing you to sacrifice dps to become an off tank, or sacrifice tankiness to dps(although, once again, STILL not as good as CW). SW- if you go damnation or fury, youre a dps machine... if you go temptation, you give up some of your dps to become an off cleric. See the pattern here? Classes give up things to be more versatile, except the CW.
As far as dungeons, AoE dps classes are the primary classes wanted in dungeons, and CWs offer the best... Paingiver charts are NOT everything. But too many people look at damage PERIOD as everything.
As far as PvP, the history of DCs and complaints about them shows... They heal too much? complained about and nerfed. They do decent damage? complained about and nerfed. They STILL heal too much? lets introduce a word just for how much were weakening them(healing depression). They heal too much again, and now do decent damage? nerf once again. See a pattern here?
but by the end of it, the only weakness CWs had was that theyre not tanky... but other classes have their weaknesses, do they not? DCs(until now) weren't capable of healing that much(lifesteal/regen was considered actually superior for quite some time), couldn't cc(1 power that held for a few seconds at most lol), couldn't deal any decent damage(the "murder cleric" builds were nerfed into oblivion,), and went down fast when targeted by even 1 CW. CWs complain that TRs saw them as any easy kill, but I knew plenty of CWs who viewed DCs as an easy kill too. Admittedly, myself included...
What a hypocrite. Not every class has a dozen of CCs and high damage encounters they can abuse to kill one (ONE!) class, even in 1v2, or 1v5 (if the DC has a proper PvP build). And even if they had, Gift of Faith activates even if you're CCd. A DC can literally afk and still live for a couple of minutes in PvP. I've seen it happen.
And yes, you're supposed to heal, but not tank, control (which goes through CC immunities, btw), buff/debuff and heal at the same time, all to extents unreachable by any other class.