You're farther down my own path then I am then (I run a Damnation warlock). I hadn't really dared consider that deflocks could be actual tanks but it looks like it is possible. If that's so then making soulbinder into a defensive oriented path would work well for everyone, including pve groups.
A Soulbinder Templock is already capable of tanking. With the new tweaks that should be enhanced.
Bug :
Soul Scorch does not gain any AP,it doesnt matter if you cast it one or five times.
Feedback :
Before and after last patch: please change the 30 / 5 spark mechanic into a full 5 spark mechanic.
Just place a bar to fill those five sparks, it will make the whole paragon path more comfortable. (Snuff Out will be useful .. at the moment its very stupid in my opinion)
The sparks are disappearing too fast. Even in a HE with multiple grps of mobs as soon as one grp dies they all poof. It takes awhile to build them up and should take some time for them to fade away.
The survivability does seem to be better in this para-path but the damage is significantly lower. It is all because of the one class ability no pity/mercy. This is going to make it very difficult for any SW to take this path.
My suggestion is to give this class ability to both paths.
Scorch is not good enough to make it on the bar. Killing flame is much better and the other 2 slots are almost always WB and DT Sometimes WB is swapped for the fireball for AE.
My suggestion is change scorch's curse consume effect to AE damage.
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luthandroseMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
The sparks are disappearing too fast. Even in a HE with multiple grps of mobs as soon as one grp dies they all poof. It takes awhile to build them up and should take some time for them to fade away.
The survivability does seem to be better in this para-path but the damage is significantly lower. It is all because of the one class ability no pity/mercy. This is going to make it very difficult for any SW to take this path.
My suggestion is to give this class ability to both paths.
Scorch is not good enough to make it on the bar. Killing flame is much better and the other 2 slots are almost always WB and DT Sometimes WB is swapped for the fireball for AE.
My suggestion is change scorch's curse consume effect to AE damage.
I agree with everything the OP stated here. I truly feel the reward of building up the sparks and how fast they dissipate isn't equal and causes issues.
One other issue I've always had with SW is our shift ability doesn't provide an immunity frame to damage like CW, DC, etc. I realize we are a leather wearing bunch but be are so much less tanky than a cloth wearing CW. To be honest, I feel there is no difference in the game between wearing leather or cloth armor and the lack of immunity frame in our shift mechanic makes us the most squish class in the game from a PvP perspective. In PvE, we can just about tank! Something needs to be done here to balance this more.
If you haven't noticed, there is really very little feedback on this class comparatively to the other classes. I see people level this class to 60 and then give up on it a lot because of it's lack luster performance in PvP. Premade groups view the class as 'gimp' because of how easily we die to CC. Please Dev's, show some love here where it's needed.
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lazaroth666Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,332Arc User
I like that it is completely different to the Hellbringer due to the mechanics (btw, it would be cool if each paragon in every class could have these kind of differences). So far, I didn't like how fast we lose the Soul Spaks after combat, maybe they shouldn't disappear instantly but like 1 soul spark each second, that would give us 30 seconds top in order to enter in another combat again and I feel the class features a bit weak, playing Hellbringer is more straight I know I will deal damage with No Pity No Mercy and Flames of Empowerment but playing with the Soulbinder's class features is too much randomness. I parsed the damage and it's a bit more weaker with this paragon, hellbringer is easier to play and is more rewarding.
I will quote myself, if you let each spark count as 1 second after combat before they disappear we will have to decide: should I spam Soul Scorch in this foes or should I keep the sparks because another fight is coming, max 30 seconds between fights with 30 sparks ofc but then you would need to rework a bit the class features which is also needed.
You could change Dust to Dust class feature to: Each time that Soul Sparks are used (either by leaving combat, using Soul Scorch, etc) you will gain AP based in the number of sparks consumed, in this way that encounter will generate AP and will still be useful after leaving combat like it is now, i.e Soul Scorch 6 sparks consumed = 6% AP per cast.
Just saw the updates for the CW on the 'Other Class Balance Thread', to improve CWs in PvP...
Think SWs could get a 40% reduction in casting time on a few of their powers? Maybe Warlock's Bargain, TT, etc? Wishful thinking I am sure, but worth a shot!
Just saw the updates for the CW on the 'Other Class Balance Thread', to improve CWs in PvP...
Think SWs could get a 40% reduction in casting time on a few of their powers? Maybe Warlock's Bargain, TT, etc? Wishful thinking I am sure, but worth a shot!
Locks already get rolled by CWs because entangling casts faster then any warlock spells. If they cast 40% faster and we stay the same it's going to be a bad time to be a pvp SW next mod
I will stress this now before this thread gets off the ground:
Feedback is what the devs are looking for. Your experience with the new path is what the devs are looking for. The devs are NOT interested in your opinion of another player's feedback or of another player, nor are they interested in arguments.
Posts which are not genuine feedback or are deemed argumentative are subject to removal without notice.
guys your making all bad moves with this new class!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
the feats are great i love them good job work they well i think
but the powers the way they work are horible
the at will is way to slow way to slow in its movment you are going to get scourge warlocks killed this way , iv been playing and trying to see how this power works best and for exsample , by the time you get one at will off [3 shots] every add by you is on you so now your dead , why becouse almost all scourge warlock powers are slow cast , well your probably thinking move ok i moved , now i have to recast its slow , so now this class is no fun , now devs id like to ask you think about all the ether classes are they slow no there not there all very fast passed , so why would i want to play like atari and take the chance that i could die and hurt my team becouse you keep making this class slower and slower,
you should really think about what people sead on the forums for the last 2 months almost every one had a problem with how slow scourge warlock is the only thing fast about sourge warlock is shadow slip lol
and your encounter is so bad in pve both powers are to slow , and for two it should hit at least one more target randomly
to be a good power in pve and for pvp make it single target
honestly when you had it first come out on the server the speed was perfect for the at will i did not even care about the encounter i could still work with that but now im fighting to stay alive and my gear score is 18000+ and my feats are perfect i do awesome dam but what good is dam if you cant move right im just a walking target becouse the powers are to slow
Feedback: SW underperforms in high end pvp, will be worse in mod 5.
The other day Crush posted an update making lots of CW abilities activate 40% faster. He also improved the activation times for DC spells while in Divinity mode. These are good changes that I think will help these classes perform better and feel more responsive to play. But I’m worried about what effect this will have on the rest of the PVP landscape. Especially how it will effect one of the weakest classes in PVP, Scourge Warlocks.
Currently in mod 4, Warlocks are one of the weakest PVP classes. I know the leaderboard is lol, but I never see any SWs on the first 20 pages. Their spells have the slowest casting times of any ranged class, and they have the lowest defensive stats and abilities of any class. For most equally geared opponents SW is an easy target, and usually focused down first because of this. Their one defensive move is sprint, which they can use to run away. Which works sometimes against melee classes. But for ranged classes, it’s less effective.
This makes CWs very effective at killing SWs currently. They have equal or longer range, the CWs spells activate much quicker then SW spells. And they have multiple CC abilities that they can chain together. This makes it very hard for an SW to kill a CW, unless the SW catches the CW off guard.
With the proposed changes to CW and DC spells activating faster, it’s going to be even harder for an already struggling class to compete in mod 5. The new paragon path currently doesn't offer any solutions to these problems. I urge the devs to look at SW spell cast times and improve them similarly to ensure a more even playing field amongst the ranged classes.
There is also a delay when activating sprint before it actually kicks in. You press shift and the direction you’d like to run. Then you take 1-2 steps before sprint starts. With dodges, the dodge happens much sooner after the key press. If you insist on lowering everyone’s cast times, please also consider removing that delay so that sprint can activate as quickly as dodges do so warlocks can at least try and sprint away from these fast activating ranged CC attacks.
I'll not pretend this to be feedback or a bug report, I just have this urge to comment on 8 pages of suggestions.
In my honest and humble opinion, I think you should look back to what we have to know what we need. For starters, is the SW a pvp class? In my opinion, no. There is little to no CC, you will have a very hard time to stay alive for all your dots to take effect and when you're dead you cant use the biggest thing going for you, your dps. Even if you are a temp SW trying to support your team, you will need to be in the middle of things to heal your friends. The cast time for most spells, as stated in the threads above, is slow compared to others.
Is that a problem? It is if you think you need to be able to play PVP with a SW.
So, what if we think SW to be a PVE class (mainly). How well equiped, encounter wise are they there? The fury spec does amazing amounts of damage, if the targets stay alive long enough, for the dots to stay alive. Yes if a strong CW comes by and uses his fast casting abilities to kill all trash mobs before you get your first skill off, you will be less effective. Does this bother me? Not at all. I know it is a thing, so I adept and target the mobs out there that will stay alive longer for my DPS to matter.
On one side, you've got fast casters, on the other side you've got slower casters but with my dmg. Overall, I still outdps most 20k CW's, with my 15k SW, unless I start running dungeons with 3/4 CW's in there, so that everything is dead before my DPS starts to happen.
Is it a problem for a temp SW, that they have a slow cast time in PVE? I doubt it. If things are dead, your allies cant be killed and as such there wont be much healing needed. By the time you get to a boss fight, the boss will be there for you to target and you'll be able to apply that dps and give the healing needed.
Do we need to go into the Damnation tree? It is probably the most uncommon SW you'll find. The idea is good, but the puppet just isnt good enough. If you want to get a SW pvp, give Damnation a little boost. Give it an encounter where a puppet rise up from the ground and holds a target in place, or chokes the target doing dps over time. Give the puppet a 1sec stun on each hit or an interupt, so that 1v1 fights are more managable. However, thats maybe a different story and in whatever case not related to soulbinder paragon, so I'll continue.
So, what do we need with the new Soulbinder paragon? Again, in my honest opinion, we dont need more dps. Do we need more sustainability? If you are a temp SW, you might not need that either. However, I have read a post in this thread, that also stated we need different things and the point, if I read it right, to that post was, that the new soulbinder path would give us a lot more survivability. Or maybe it would be better to say, it will give us more utility.
I'm all for different things, so keep it different and dont make more of the same. Now that DC's get more DPS, why dont give the soulfinder path an aggro, so they can tank? I dont mean, can take dmg, I mean can control ads and take the dmg on to them > tanking.
Another posibility would be, to make the soulbinder path completely pvp oriented. This would mean another CC, probably faster casting on the soulbinder specific encounter and some more survivability. That is also fine with me, but I personally would prefer it, if the Damnation tree went more pvp and you'll get to pick between Hellbringer and Soulbinder, for more DPS on the one side and more Def / Survivability / Utility on the other side.
We dont need more of the same, even if it is placed under different names, different looks, but we need a complete new idea to do, or to play as. We dont need 2x dps tree, 2x damnation, w/e that supposed to be, 2x Temp, we need 6 different things, give us options.
Just wanted to chime and say buffs to the Damnation tree/Utility in PvP are superb additions to the discussion and I hope the devs take your words under advisement.
luthandroseMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2014
To respond to aidek0:
I really like your post and thought you did a great job with it.
After I read over the Dev posts and look at the changes to the other classes, I wonder why anyone would really want to play an SW? I have put a TON of resources into playing this class. I have all my boons from every area, both BI sets, two legendary artifact weapons, etc., so I would say I'm somewhat qualified/justified to make this comment. I keep hoping some attention to fixing some of the issues for SW would come around but I'm getting tired of waiting.
My description of the SW class is that it's a great class to play as an alt but really isn't worth investing the time it takes to get to high end PvP. Meaning, getting all the boons and crafting up armor just doesn't seem worth it when compared to other classes that can do the same thing SW does but better. In PvE, other classes do what we do better...except heal, which people with a good amount of life steal can do on their own.
SW's are going to be the free kill, have done some tests on preview, both paths on next mod, wont make any diff, SW'll die an about 4~6 secs on a 1 vs 1, the healing fron soulbinder doesn't work at all, SW'll be long time dead before it can get 20+ sparks when that healing realy do something. so i did some tests, we have time to cast curse and a encounter or atwill, before we die(i'n at 41khp), the new encounter is a useless skill for both pve/pvp, killing flames works better even it being necrotic, the others pasives are HAMSTER, doen't have any use.
The SW does stupid high damage. I dont think anyone can complain about that. Survivability is the problem and has been since they released this class. In pve its not bad to manage. In pvp you can get killed fast but you can kill fast too. I dont know about "high end" pvp but considering thats a handfull of people I really dont care.
Killing flames is an execution you can use every 10sec. Any player gets below half health and their dead. For many players a harrow to toss them up and then a KF kills them. You can almost hit someone with warlocks bargain and walk away knowing their dead. Im sure its different in the very high end.
KF and WB both cast fast, its really Harrow and our dailies that are sooo painfully slow. I also wish our shift provided higher damage resists. Everything hits so hard now at least 50% DR on shift would help.
I think just some minor tweaking is all it would take for the SW be about right.
Rise of Tiamat Preview Patch Notes NW.35.20141104a.1
Classes and Balance
Control Wizard
Arcane Presence: Now also passively increases your recharge speed by 5/10/15%.
Chill Strike: This power now activates 40% faster.
Chilling Presence: Damage bonus increased to 2% per stack (per rank) and is doubled on Frozen targets.
Entangling Force: This power now activates 40% faster.
Fanning the Flames: This power now activates 40% faster."
Icy Rays marked target duration has been reduced to a more reasonable time.
Icy Rays: Targets can now be marked while moving.
Icy Rays: The follow up portion of this power now activates 40% faster.
Ray of Enfeeblement: This power now activates 40% faster.
Repel: This power now activates 40% faster.
Sudden Storm: This power now activates 40% faster.
Feedback : unfair for PvP-SW
In my opinion its very stupid to reduce cooldowns for the CW's when you look at PvP.
Sure, with a good temptation / damnation build you can survive for a few seconds but its no difference between casting (and hope that youre faster that your enemy/ target bust mostly they are faster then you if this players see each other at the same time)
or just get into a stunlock because now all caster classes can activate their stuns etc around 30 to 50% faster then you.
Please guys, if you look at long cooldowns for reduce their cast-time, do that for the SW, too.
- Harrowstorm needs around 3-5 seconds for stunning ... one .. target. (old but good example for pvp)
- Soul Scorch also casts around 1-2 Seconds and still its no gaining any action points. So you can cast it up to 5 times, it deals nice dmg but its very stupid to get AP while you put this into your rotation.
- Your sparks decrease too fast for pvp so you fight long to get them, but if you win against your target you lose them instantly because youre leaving combat.
- Snuff Out still is a useless passive power, because you dont really feel a difference between with and without it when youve got a 'normal' crit rate (change it : recharge 1 out of 5 full spark counters when a target dies 30' next to you)
- Borrowed Time : if you play a pvp SW with .. ~43.000 HP this skill heals you around 1.000 life when your sparks are full[/U. Here is another problem with spark decreasing in pvp.
this are only a few examples about roadworks with a pvp SW, maybe i forget other stuff, but i onyl want to show problems coming with the new paragon path if you think to use it in pvp.
Rise of Tiamat Preview Patch Notes NW.35.20141104a.1
Classes and Balance
Control Wizard
Arcane Presence: Now also passively increases your recharge speed by 5/10/15%.
Chill Strike: This power now activates 40% faster.
Chilling Presence: Damage bonus increased to 2% per stack (per rank) and is doubled on Frozen targets.
Entangling Force: This power now activates 40% faster.
Fanning the Flames: This power now activates 40% faster."
Icy Rays marked target duration has been reduced to a more reasonable time.
Icy Rays: Targets can now be marked while moving.
Icy Rays: The follow up portion of this power now activates 40% faster.
Ray of Enfeeblement: This power now activates 40% faster.
Repel: This power now activates 40% faster.
Sudden Storm: This power now activates 40% faster.
Feedback : unfair for PvP-SW
In my opinion its very stupid to reduce cooldowns for the CW's when you look at PvP.
Sure, with a good temptation / damnation build you can survive for a few seconds but its no difference between casting (and hope that youre faster that your enemy/ target bust mostly they are faster then you if this players see each other at the same time)
or just get into a stunlock because now all caster classes can activate their stuns etc around 30 to 50% faster then you.
Please guys, if you look at long cooldowns for reduce their cast-time, do that for the SW, too.
- Harrowstorm needs around 3-5 seconds for stunning ... one .. target. (old but good example for pvp)
- Soul Scorch also casts around 1-2 Seconds and still its no gaining any action points. So you can cast it up to 5 times, it deals nice dmg but its very stupid to get AP while you put this into your rotation.
- Your sparks decrease too fast for pvp so you fight long to get them, but if you win against your target you lose them instantly because youre leaving combat.
- Snuff Out still is a useless passive power, because you dont really feel a difference between with and without it when youve got a 'normal' crit rate (change it : recharge 1 out of 5 full spark counters when a target dies 30' next to you)
- Borrowed Time : if you play a pvp SW with .. ~43.000 HP this skill heals you around 1.000 life when your sparks are full[/U. Here is another problem with spark decreasing in pvp.
this are only a few examples about roadworks with a pvp SW, maybe i forget other stuff, but i onyl want to show problems coming with the new paragon path if you think to use it in pvp.
DEvs already know that, but sseens that they don't care about SW at all, mostly because there'r just a few of SW playing, so they need to keep CW population happy. SW is fated to be the module free kill.
So in the end SW will be left behind by the game dev. No one will take this useless class in the future, since the other classes are more powerful and interesting in their passive abilities/feature, dodge, cc breaker and encounter.
There is some major issues about the SW with new paragon path. After i tried my SW on the next preview module and it doesn't feel really competitive compare to other class.
Feedback about Soulbinder :
1. The duration of collected soul spark vanish immediately after combat, this should give more duration time like 15 s to completely vanish after combat. then it will help SW more survivable in pve and in pvp.
2. Encounter - Soul Scorch, This skill isn't good enough, the damage is quite decent but has very longer to cast. Also it doesn't fit with the description where it should deal heavy damage, if i compare to other classes such us some TR encounter or CW storm spell or intimidation GWF skill, this encounter feels too weak. i prefer to use killing flames rather this encounter. So, how about makes some changes like : Soul scorch should have more 20% damage. The feature of curse consume gives additional bonus by 35% damage and chaining up to 4 nearby enemies in range 30 feet from the first victim, the damage chained enemies are taking 75% of Total damage.
3. Daily - Immolation Spirits, I tried this daily however the summoned spirits are quite stupid, because whenever i am fleeing or moving red circle attack from mobs, these spirits don't attack the mobs, and they just follow me up. so, i think the issue is located in the NPC mechanism, it should be fixed to be responsive to attack nearby enemies. At the moment this daily isn't helpful at all in keeping me more survivable against crowd enemies even it cast very long. Also, How about we make some change to this daily where the summoned immolation spirits will share their the damage resistance to SW, additionally give life steal buff about 0.75% per 6 spark consume for a decent duration. this could give more survivability to SW.
4. Class feature - dust to dust. One of most trash feature's ability. Even i want to laugh, why this ability should be slotted in my current build. Enough for useless ability. recovery by 0,8% of total AP points is totally bull****. i don't feel any advantage to this feature. this ability must definitely be fixed. this feature should give buff to at-will attack and encounter 30% AP gain and 0.35% recovery of maximum AP per consumed spark by the end of battle
5. Class feature - Borrowed Time. This feature is quite decent to keep me survivable in battle (hopefully this regeneration ability isn't affected by healing depression in pvp). However, in current preview, soul sparks are vanished immediately after the combat's end. So, this feature isn't quite reliable at the moment, since what we need, are longer regeneration that keep SW alive. And i think this feature should give more buff like additionally bonus incoming healing by 1.1% per spark
6. Class feature - Snuff out. Yeah again, some useless ability. it seems there is no differences by slotting this feature. No one cares about the death enemies give us soul spark. it just wastes of time by gaining 1 spark per death enemy each 5 sec from total of 30 sparks. This should be change like this, each killed enemy within 50 ft, will give 1 spark without trigger condition, additionally, if the cursed enemy is killed, it will give 3 sparks.
7. Fury feat - Burning Soul. This feat increases temporary damage by 2% per spark in full rank. If i estimate it, this should passively increase SW damage totally 60%, i don't know if i am miscalculating or not. However, the damage doesn't seem to rightfully increase in full 30 sparks. I think game dev should be more pay attention about this. I think i have some idea if it's changed like this : This feat increases temporary damage by 0.5% per spark and chance of critical strike by 0.25% per spark
8. Damnation feat - Sparkbinder. The increasing duration of lasting summoned immolation spirits by 5 s longer. I think this feat is not very helpful and fun in many ways. This feat should also give additionally buff like adding 0.75% damage resistance per spark to the SW. Because i think damnation path should be more tanky.
9. Temptation feat - Vampiric sparks. in full rank it gives 0.05% per soul spark, so totally this buff 1,5% for 30 sparks additional life steal for SW. This feat is quite decent, but it still lacking in many ways.Since the role of Temptation should support other class and more tanky then I think this feat also gives another buff like adding 1% control resistance per spark
I hope game dev won't forsake this new class, i know many player are disappointing to this class, since this class is one of the weakest in pvp in 1 vs 1. Even, in pve somehow, SW is one of last wanted member in raid team, since it doesn't have clear purpose in other class's perspective like GF as Guardian, CW as Controll Crowd, GWF as AOE Taunting, DC as AOE healer and protection, TR and HR as i dunno i think single DPS (i rarely see this class in raiding epic dungeon).
7. Fury feat - Burning Soul. This feat increases temporary damage by 2% per spark in full rank.
Devs have nerfed it already, now at max it give 9% damage bonus, a **** imo.
SW new role= death filling for others classes, btw have i told you that a dc can 3 hit a SW with 43k hp?? nice isn't? in others words, SW'll die to anything on next mod, there'r not a single class that can be easy killed by SW.
The mechanics of the new paragon path are really fun, I enjoy how it feels different from Hellbringer as a whole and congratulate the devs for the good work. Still, I believe some effects should be taken into consideration and buffed, cause IMHO this path is supposed to bring high survability to the class via self healing. It does bring new things to the table, but what you lose vs what you win (dps from Hellbringer vs survability from Soulbinder) isn't enough to make it happen. I'd suggest you to buff Borrowed Time (it's good but make it better so it becomes "the big reason to go Soulbinder") and either make Sparks last longer after combat or buff the heal received when they are consumed to make it more desirable.
PS: It wouldn't hurt to take a look at activation/casting times of some of the powers.
guess SW'll be the worst pvp class after all, devs dont care about SW's at all, and mod 5 pre patch is already on, so another dead paragon and a 4/4 drow s.h.i.t pvp set coming to SW.
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luthandroseMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
guess SW'll be the worst pvp class after all, devs dont care about SW's at all, and mod 5 pre patch is already on, so another dead paragon and a 4/4 drow s.h.i.t pvp set coming to SW.
My butt hurts already and mod 5 isn't here yet! My hope is that the Dev's were so busy with the other classes for mod 5 release that they didn't have time for a deep dive into SW, despite the new paragon path. Perhaps mod 5.1 will show us some MUCH needed love for PvP.
My butt hurts already and mod 5 isn't here yet! My hope is that the Dev's were so busy with the other classes for mod 5 release that they didn't have time for a deep dive into SW, despite the new paragon path. Perhaps mod 5.1 will show us some MUCH needed love for PvP.
the probles is that, they overpowered TRs so much, now they have infinite dailys with cause 40k+ damage on full health and even more, after 6 secs 50% of the damage done is inflicted again on the target, so how a broken class like sw will stand a chance against then? 1 tr with 7k power can easily kill a whole party now, just using dailys.
Comments
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Soul Scorch does not gain any AP,it doesnt matter if you cast it one or five times.
Feedback :
Before and after last patch: please change the 30 / 5 spark mechanic into a full 5 spark mechanic.
Just place a bar to fill those five sparks, it will make the whole paragon path more comfortable. (Snuff Out will be useful .. at the moment its very stupid in my opinion)
The survivability does seem to be better in this para-path but the damage is significantly lower. It is all because of the one class ability no pity/mercy. This is going to make it very difficult for any SW to take this path.
My suggestion is to give this class ability to both paths.
Scorch is not good enough to make it on the bar. Killing flame is much better and the other 2 slots are almost always WB and DT Sometimes WB is swapped for the fireball for AE.
My suggestion is change scorch's curse consume effect to AE damage.
I agree with everything the OP stated here. I truly feel the reward of building up the sparks and how fast they dissipate isn't equal and causes issues.
One other issue I've always had with SW is our shift ability doesn't provide an immunity frame to damage like CW, DC, etc. I realize we are a leather wearing bunch but be are so much less tanky than a cloth wearing CW. To be honest, I feel there is no difference in the game between wearing leather or cloth armor and the lack of immunity frame in our shift mechanic makes us the most squish class in the game from a PvP perspective. In PvE, we can just about tank! Something needs to be done here to balance this more.
If you haven't noticed, there is really very little feedback on this class comparatively to the other classes. I see people level this class to 60 and then give up on it a lot because of it's lack luster performance in PvP. Premade groups view the class as 'gimp' because of how easily we die to CC. Please Dev's, show some love here where it's needed.
I will quote myself, if you let each spark count as 1 second after combat before they disappear we will have to decide: should I spam Soul Scorch in this foes or should I keep the sparks because another fight is coming, max 30 seconds between fights with 30 sparks ofc but then you would need to rework a bit the class features which is also needed.
You could change Dust to Dust class feature to: Each time that Soul Sparks are used (either by leaving combat, using Soul Scorch, etc) you will gain AP based in the number of sparks consumed, in this way that encounter will generate AP and will still be useful after leaving combat like it is now, i.e Soul Scorch 6 sparks consumed = 6% AP per cast.
Think SWs could get a 40% reduction in casting time on a few of their powers? Maybe Warlock's Bargain, TT, etc? Wishful thinking I am sure, but worth a shot!
I'll second that.
guys your making all bad moves with this new class!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
the feats are great i love them good job work they well i think
but the powers the way they work are horible
the at will is way to slow way to slow in its movment you are going to get scourge warlocks killed this way , iv been playing and trying to see how this power works best and for exsample , by the time you get one at will off [3 shots] every add by you is on you so now your dead , why becouse almost all scourge warlock powers are slow cast , well your probably thinking move ok i moved , now i have to recast its slow , so now this class is no fun , now devs id like to ask you think about all the ether classes are they slow no there not there all very fast passed , so why would i want to play like atari and take the chance that i could die and hurt my team becouse you keep making this class slower and slower,
you should really think about what people sead on the forums for the last 2 months almost every one had a problem with how slow scourge warlock is the only thing fast about sourge warlock is shadow slip lol
and your encounter is so bad in pve both powers are to slow , and for two it should hit at least one more target randomly
to be a good power in pve and for pvp make it single target
honestly when you had it first come out on the server the speed was perfect for the at will i did not even care about the encounter i could still work with that but now im fighting to stay alive and my gear score is 18000+ and my feats are perfect i do awesome dam but what good is dam if you cant move right im just a walking target becouse the powers are to slow
The other day Crush posted an update making lots of CW abilities activate 40% faster. He also improved the activation times for DC spells while in Divinity mode. These are good changes that I think will help these classes perform better and feel more responsive to play. But I’m worried about what effect this will have on the rest of the PVP landscape. Especially how it will effect one of the weakest classes in PVP, Scourge Warlocks.
Currently in mod 4, Warlocks are one of the weakest PVP classes. I know the leaderboard is lol, but I never see any SWs on the first 20 pages. Their spells have the slowest casting times of any ranged class, and they have the lowest defensive stats and abilities of any class. For most equally geared opponents SW is an easy target, and usually focused down first because of this. Their one defensive move is sprint, which they can use to run away. Which works sometimes against melee classes. But for ranged classes, it’s less effective.
This makes CWs very effective at killing SWs currently. They have equal or longer range, the CWs spells activate much quicker then SW spells. And they have multiple CC abilities that they can chain together. This makes it very hard for an SW to kill a CW, unless the SW catches the CW off guard.
With the proposed changes to CW and DC spells activating faster, it’s going to be even harder for an already struggling class to compete in mod 5. The new paragon path currently doesn't offer any solutions to these problems. I urge the devs to look at SW spell cast times and improve them similarly to ensure a more even playing field amongst the ranged classes.
There is also a delay when activating sprint before it actually kicks in. You press shift and the direction you’d like to run. Then you take 1-2 steps before sprint starts. With dodges, the dodge happens much sooner after the key press. If you insist on lowering everyone’s cast times, please also consider removing that delay so that sprint can activate as quickly as dodges do so warlocks can at least try and sprint away from these fast activating ranged CC attacks.
In my honest and humble opinion, I think you should look back to what we have to know what we need. For starters, is the SW a pvp class? In my opinion, no. There is little to no CC, you will have a very hard time to stay alive for all your dots to take effect and when you're dead you cant use the biggest thing going for you, your dps. Even if you are a temp SW trying to support your team, you will need to be in the middle of things to heal your friends. The cast time for most spells, as stated in the threads above, is slow compared to others.
Is that a problem? It is if you think you need to be able to play PVP with a SW.
So, what if we think SW to be a PVE class (mainly). How well equiped, encounter wise are they there? The fury spec does amazing amounts of damage, if the targets stay alive long enough, for the dots to stay alive. Yes if a strong CW comes by and uses his fast casting abilities to kill all trash mobs before you get your first skill off, you will be less effective. Does this bother me? Not at all. I know it is a thing, so I adept and target the mobs out there that will stay alive longer for my DPS to matter.
On one side, you've got fast casters, on the other side you've got slower casters but with my dmg. Overall, I still outdps most 20k CW's, with my 15k SW, unless I start running dungeons with 3/4 CW's in there, so that everything is dead before my DPS starts to happen.
Is it a problem for a temp SW, that they have a slow cast time in PVE? I doubt it. If things are dead, your allies cant be killed and as such there wont be much healing needed. By the time you get to a boss fight, the boss will be there for you to target and you'll be able to apply that dps and give the healing needed.
Do we need to go into the Damnation tree? It is probably the most uncommon SW you'll find. The idea is good, but the puppet just isnt good enough. If you want to get a SW pvp, give Damnation a little boost. Give it an encounter where a puppet rise up from the ground and holds a target in place, or chokes the target doing dps over time. Give the puppet a 1sec stun on each hit or an interupt, so that 1v1 fights are more managable. However, thats maybe a different story and in whatever case not related to soulbinder paragon, so I'll continue.
So, what do we need with the new Soulbinder paragon? Again, in my honest opinion, we dont need more dps. Do we need more sustainability? If you are a temp SW, you might not need that either. However, I have read a post in this thread, that also stated we need different things and the point, if I read it right, to that post was, that the new soulbinder path would give us a lot more survivability. Or maybe it would be better to say, it will give us more utility.
I'm all for different things, so keep it different and dont make more of the same. Now that DC's get more DPS, why dont give the soulfinder path an aggro, so they can tank? I dont mean, can take dmg, I mean can control ads and take the dmg on to them > tanking.
Another posibility would be, to make the soulbinder path completely pvp oriented. This would mean another CC, probably faster casting on the soulbinder specific encounter and some more survivability. That is also fine with me, but I personally would prefer it, if the Damnation tree went more pvp and you'll get to pick between Hellbringer and Soulbinder, for more DPS on the one side and more Def / Survivability / Utility on the other side.
We dont need more of the same, even if it is placed under different names, different looks, but we need a complete new idea to do, or to play as. We dont need 2x dps tree, 2x damnation, w/e that supposed to be, 2x Temp, we need 6 different things, give us options.
Great read above mi amigo!
Just wanted to chime and say buffs to the Damnation tree/Utility in PvP are superb additions to the discussion and I hope the devs take your words under advisement.
I really like your post and thought you did a great job with it.
After I read over the Dev posts and look at the changes to the other classes, I wonder why anyone would really want to play an SW? I have put a TON of resources into playing this class. I have all my boons from every area, both BI sets, two legendary artifact weapons, etc., so I would say I'm somewhat qualified/justified to make this comment. I keep hoping some attention to fixing some of the issues for SW would come around but I'm getting tired of waiting.
My description of the SW class is that it's a great class to play as an alt but really isn't worth investing the time it takes to get to high end PvP. Meaning, getting all the boons and crafting up armor just doesn't seem worth it when compared to other classes that can do the same thing SW does but better. In PvE, other classes do what we do better...except heal, which people with a good amount of life steal can do on their own.
Killing flames is an execution you can use every 10sec. Any player gets below half health and their dead. For many players a harrow to toss them up and then a KF kills them. You can almost hit someone with warlocks bargain and walk away knowing their dead. Im sure its different in the very high end.
KF and WB both cast fast, its really Harrow and our dailies that are sooo painfully slow. I also wish our shift provided higher damage resists. Everything hits so hard now at least 50% DR on shift would help.
I think just some minor tweaking is all it would take for the SW be about right.
Classes and Balance
Control Wizard
Arcane Presence: Now also passively increases your recharge speed by 5/10/15%.
Chill Strike: This power now activates 40% faster.
Chilling Presence: Damage bonus increased to 2% per stack (per rank) and is doubled on Frozen targets.
Entangling Force: This power now activates 40% faster.
Fanning the Flames: This power now activates 40% faster."
Icy Rays marked target duration has been reduced to a more reasonable time.
Icy Rays: Targets can now be marked while moving.
Icy Rays: The follow up portion of this power now activates 40% faster.
Ray of Enfeeblement: This power now activates 40% faster.
Repel: This power now activates 40% faster.
Sudden Storm: This power now activates 40% faster.
Feedback : unfair for PvP-SW
In my opinion its very stupid to reduce cooldowns for the CW's when you look at PvP.
Sure, with a good temptation / damnation build you can survive for a few seconds but its no difference between casting (and hope that youre faster that your enemy/ target bust mostly they are faster then you if this players see each other at the same time)
or just get into a stunlock because now all caster classes can activate their stuns etc around 30 to 50% faster then you.
Please guys, if you look at long cooldowns for reduce their cast-time, do that for the SW, too.
- Harrowstorm needs around 3-5 seconds for stunning ... one .. target. (old but good example for pvp)
- Soul Scorch also casts around 1-2 Seconds and still its no gaining any action points. So you can cast it up to 5 times, it deals nice dmg but its very stupid to get AP while you put this into your rotation.
- Your sparks decrease too fast for pvp so you fight long to get them, but if you win against your target you lose them instantly because youre leaving combat.
- Snuff Out still is a useless passive power, because you dont really feel a difference between with and without it when youve got a 'normal' crit rate (change it : recharge 1 out of 5 full spark counters when a target dies 30' next to you)
- Borrowed Time : if you play a pvp SW with .. ~43.000 HP this skill heals you around 1.000 life when your sparks are full[/U. Here is another problem with spark decreasing in pvp.
this are only a few examples about roadworks with a pvp SW, maybe i forget other stuff, but i onyl want to show problems coming with the new paragon path if you think to use it in pvp.
DEvs already know that, but sseens that they don't care about SW at all, mostly because there'r just a few of SW playing, so they need to keep CW population happy. SW is fated to be the module free kill.
There is some major issues about the SW with new paragon path. After i tried my SW on the next preview module and it doesn't feel really competitive compare to other class.
Feedback about Soulbinder :
1. The duration of collected soul spark vanish immediately after combat, this should give more duration time like 15 s to completely vanish after combat. then it will help SW more survivable in pve and in pvp.
2. Encounter - Soul Scorch, This skill isn't good enough, the damage is quite decent but has very longer to cast. Also it doesn't fit with the description where it should deal heavy damage, if i compare to other classes such us some TR encounter or CW storm spell or intimidation GWF skill, this encounter feels too weak. i prefer to use killing flames rather this encounter. So, how about makes some changes like : Soul scorch should have more 20% damage. The feature of curse consume gives additional bonus by 35% damage and chaining up to 4 nearby enemies in range 30 feet from the first victim, the damage chained enemies are taking 75% of Total damage.
3. Daily - Immolation Spirits, I tried this daily however the summoned spirits are quite stupid, because whenever i am fleeing or moving red circle attack from mobs, these spirits don't attack the mobs, and they just follow me up. so, i think the issue is located in the NPC mechanism, it should be fixed to be responsive to attack nearby enemies. At the moment this daily isn't helpful at all in keeping me more survivable against crowd enemies even it cast very long. Also, How about we make some change to this daily where the summoned immolation spirits will share their the damage resistance to SW, additionally give life steal buff about 0.75% per 6 spark consume for a decent duration. this could give more survivability to SW.
4. Class feature - dust to dust. One of most trash feature's ability. Even i want to laugh, why this ability should be slotted in my current build. Enough for useless ability. recovery by 0,8% of total AP points is totally bull****. i don't feel any advantage to this feature. this ability must definitely be fixed. this feature should give buff to at-will attack and encounter 30% AP gain and 0.35% recovery of maximum AP per consumed spark by the end of battle
5. Class feature - Borrowed Time. This feature is quite decent to keep me survivable in battle (hopefully this regeneration ability isn't affected by healing depression in pvp). However, in current preview, soul sparks are vanished immediately after the combat's end. So, this feature isn't quite reliable at the moment, since what we need, are longer regeneration that keep SW alive. And i think this feature should give more buff like additionally bonus incoming healing by 1.1% per spark
6. Class feature - Snuff out. Yeah again, some useless ability. it seems there is no differences by slotting this feature. No one cares about the death enemies give us soul spark. it just wastes of time by gaining 1 spark per death enemy each 5 sec from total of 30 sparks. This should be change like this, each killed enemy within 50 ft, will give 1 spark without trigger condition, additionally, if the cursed enemy is killed, it will give 3 sparks.
7. Fury feat - Burning Soul. This feat increases temporary damage by 2% per spark in full rank. If i estimate it, this should passively increase SW damage totally 60%, i don't know if i am miscalculating or not. However, the damage doesn't seem to rightfully increase in full 30 sparks. I think game dev should be more pay attention about this. I think i have some idea if it's changed like this : This feat increases temporary damage by 0.5% per spark and chance of critical strike by 0.25% per spark
8. Damnation feat - Sparkbinder. The increasing duration of lasting summoned immolation spirits by 5 s longer. I think this feat is not very helpful and fun in many ways. This feat should also give additionally buff like adding 0.75% damage resistance per spark to the SW. Because i think damnation path should be more tanky.
9. Temptation feat - Vampiric sparks. in full rank it gives 0.05% per soul spark, so totally this buff 1,5% for 30 sparks additional life steal for SW. This feat is quite decent, but it still lacking in many ways.Since the role of Temptation should support other class and more tanky then I think this feat also gives another buff like adding 1% control resistance per spark
I hope game dev won't forsake this new class, i know many player are disappointing to this class, since this class is one of the weakest in pvp in 1 vs 1. Even, in pve somehow, SW is one of last wanted member in raid team, since it doesn't have clear purpose in other class's perspective like GF as Guardian, CW as Controll Crowd, GWF as AOE Taunting, DC as AOE healer and protection, TR and HR as i dunno i think single DPS (i rarely see this class in raiding epic dungeon).
Devs have nerfed it already, now at max it give 9% damage bonus, a **** imo.
The mechanics of the new paragon path are really fun, I enjoy how it feels different from Hellbringer as a whole and congratulate the devs for the good work. Still, I believe some effects should be taken into consideration and buffed, cause IMHO this path is supposed to bring high survability to the class via self healing. It does bring new things to the table, but what you lose vs what you win (dps from Hellbringer vs survability from Soulbinder) isn't enough to make it happen. I'd suggest you to buff Borrowed Time (it's good but make it better so it becomes "the big reason to go Soulbinder") and either make Sparks last longer after combat or buff the heal received when they are consumed to make it more desirable.
PS: It wouldn't hurt to take a look at activation/casting times of some of the powers.
HR Stormwarden Trapper / Stormwarden Combat
GWF Swordmaster Destroyer
CW Master of Flame Thaumaturge / Spellstorm Oppressor
TR Master Infiltrator Executioner
SW Soulbinder Fury
My butt hurts already and mod 5 isn't here yet! My hope is that the Dev's were so busy with the other classes for mod 5 release that they didn't have time for a deep dive into SW, despite the new paragon path. Perhaps mod 5.1 will show us some MUCH needed love for PvP.
the probles is that, they overpowered TRs so much, now they have infinite dailys with cause 40k+ damage on full health and even more, after 6 secs 50% of the damage done is inflicted again on the target, so how a broken class like sw will stand a chance against then? 1 tr with 7k power can easily kill a whole party now, just using dailys.