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iandarksword
Member Posts: 978 Arc User
The Neverwinter Product Manager had a Reddit this afternoon. The subject of the Foundry was brought up, but long story-short he didn't view it as profitable to improve at the present time.
To quote him:
"The Foundry is a feature that we talk about a lot... It is really awesome, but also extremely resource intensive to maintain/update. Adding bosses (and boss drops) to the Foundry is something we have discussed many times. Unfortunately, we haven't been able to prove that the return on investment would be high enough, so for now your dungeons will continue to be dragonless.
"
For those that would like to read through the entire conversation:
http://www.reddit.com/r/Neverwinter/comments/2kphsw/hi_reddit_my_name_is_ryan_and_i_am_the_product/
Eldarth's list was brought up by name, however, no real answers were given about it, just a big maybe:
"I have just a couple questions about the Foundry. I know that the Foundry isn't the 'profitable' area of your game (that's heavily debated, however), but one of the forum members, Eldarth, has written a HUGE HUGE HUGE list of foundry bugs, and most could easily be fixed with just a tiny bit of TLC. Can foundry authors expect some Foundry love soon?
Also, regarding the foundry, are there any >REAL< plans to make the foundry more rewarding for players? You've seen other concerns about repetitive gameplay, and I honestly think that the Foundry could be your saving grace here.
permalink
[–]PWE_Community 1 point 5 hours ago
It could indeed be our saving grace. We basically need a way to prove that though, before we can commit to doing it.
People at Cryptic have struggled with this balance since the Foundry was originally developed. It is very hard to measure how much impact the Foundry actually has towards the bottom line.
Not sure when the Foundry will receive TLC updates, but considering the people that use it are the most hardcore players we have, and there are obvious benefits to keeping them happy, we might be able to get some stuff fixed."
He did elaborate on the "hardcore" description too:
"[–]PWE_Community 1 point 5 hours ago
What I meant is that the people who care most about the core IP/idea of the Foundry are those D&D players that want to make their own experiences, not necessarily the people that play the most of the game or want to take advantage of the Foundry in the most efficient way."
While not surprising, figured you all might want to hear it "from the horse's mouth" so to speak.
To quote him:
"The Foundry is a feature that we talk about a lot... It is really awesome, but also extremely resource intensive to maintain/update. Adding bosses (and boss drops) to the Foundry is something we have discussed many times. Unfortunately, we haven't been able to prove that the return on investment would be high enough, so for now your dungeons will continue to be dragonless.
"For those that would like to read through the entire conversation:
http://www.reddit.com/r/Neverwinter/comments/2kphsw/hi_reddit_my_name_is_ryan_and_i_am_the_product/
Eldarth's list was brought up by name, however, no real answers were given about it, just a big maybe:
"I have just a couple questions about the Foundry. I know that the Foundry isn't the 'profitable' area of your game (that's heavily debated, however), but one of the forum members, Eldarth, has written a HUGE HUGE HUGE list of foundry bugs, and most could easily be fixed with just a tiny bit of TLC. Can foundry authors expect some Foundry love soon?
Also, regarding the foundry, are there any >REAL< plans to make the foundry more rewarding for players? You've seen other concerns about repetitive gameplay, and I honestly think that the Foundry could be your saving grace here.
permalink
[–]PWE_Community 1 point 5 hours ago
It could indeed be our saving grace. We basically need a way to prove that though, before we can commit to doing it.
People at Cryptic have struggled with this balance since the Foundry was originally developed. It is very hard to measure how much impact the Foundry actually has towards the bottom line.
Not sure when the Foundry will receive TLC updates, but considering the people that use it are the most hardcore players we have, and there are obvious benefits to keeping them happy, we might be able to get some stuff fixed."
He did elaborate on the "hardcore" description too:
"[–]PWE_Community 1 point 5 hours ago
What I meant is that the people who care most about the core IP/idea of the Foundry are those D&D players that want to make their own experiences, not necessarily the people that play the most of the game or want to take advantage of the Foundry in the most efficient way."
While not surprising, figured you all might want to hear it "from the horse's mouth" so to speak.
"I don't know, I'm making it up as I go..."
Featured Foundry Quest: Whispers of an Ancient Evil [v3] - NW-DQ4WKW6ZG
Foundry Quest: Harper Chronicles: Blacklake - NW-DCPA4W2Q5
Featured Foundry Quest: Whispers of an Ancient Evil [v3] - NW-DQ4WKW6ZG
Foundry Quest: Harper Chronicles: Blacklake - NW-DCPA4W2Q5
Post edited by iandarksword on
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The question of Bosses in Foundries has been a request since before Neverwinter even opened to the public.
This question was answered back then - with regard to why it is so difficult for the Devs to just add Bosses to Foundry assets: Bosses in game require a lot more programming than simple mobs and encounters. Those things can just wander about based on path-nodes that are computer-generated throughout the "walkable" spaces in a map and are simple collision-based algorithms.
Bosses on the other hand require that the character model shapes, physics, animations and scripting be specifically written to match the "Boss Lair" - the arena space where they are fought. This is one of the reasons that many boss lairs now create an invisible door once you enter to prevent you from leaving that lair during the boss fight - because if the boss chases you outside that arena bad things can happen in terms of serious game-play glitches.
Because in Foundry we customize our own maps and arena zones, it's not so easy to create Boss assets that work like typical encounters. One answer is "just make some encounters more powerful and difficult to fight" - but that could be abused (intentionally or not) and could ruin (mentally/emotionally/logically) continuity of those same assets in Cryptic quests (Why is that Hulk so much more crazy-powerful in Foundries than in 'regular world'? for example - not to mention the code-writing to even make that possible).
So it's not really an easy answer.
Now take all the above into account to understand why it's so difficult to add a giant Pirate Grimm boss and then imagine how exponentially more difficult it might be to add a Dragon.
I'm not defending Cryptic's answer to this question, I am only explaining the detail that the Devs don't have the time to go into (writing detailed explanation) during things like this AMA or even in the forums. Robobo's detailed explanation took-up like three posts in the Foundry beta forums back then and it obviously took a very long time to write.
I don't know if I can still access those forums, but if I can I'll try to find that post to share.
UPDATE: Here's a link to Performance Considerations when designing your Foundry:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?124871-Performance-Considerations
DO NOT POST TO THAT THREAD: It is Necro'd and against forum rules to resurrect it. I link to it FYI only.
UPDATE 2: I looked and couldn't find the Dev post explaining Boss encounter mechanics, either it is inside the old Alpha/Beta forums and locked away in perpetuity or it was written by another Dev whose name I don't recall. In any case, though my description isn't detailed or more than 99% accurate, it is the main gist that I remember.
I don't see why they couln't add bosses like you mentioned, just make a certain enemy encounter (or single enemy) have 2 or 3 times the HP, higher stats and a boss HP bar and call it a day. No one is asking for complex mechanics or anything like that.
The sadder part is that many bugs don't require much time, they could probably be fixed pretty fast.
and about the rogues walking bug:
"When can I expect my rogue to stop running to the sound of Chariots of Fire (in my head) when I try to use the walk emote?
permalink
[–]PWE_Community 0 points 17 hours ago
Is this that bug where the walk for rogues still causes them to do the really slow running animation? That's my favorite!"
that was pretty funny, BUT they dind't repoly to ther question
I did find the entire thread about just beefing-up an existing encounter - (and that one really WAS Robobo (badbotlimit) - but he only said "let's discuss this!" - the rest is all beta-testers commentary, hence not very useful. I'm still looking for the boss mechanics post, which may have been made by Crypticmapolis. I'll update my post above if I find it.
The problem is that most of the Silverstar forums (they were called The Tower and Safehaven or something) are completely locked away, likely because of the non-disclosers we all had to agree to.
Still looking just the same.
they dont see return in foundry
they are starting to see return in pvp.
let s start to spam for foundry pvp!
that will force them to work toward foundry tools too and in the near future the hard work they actually need to develop it will be less.
I believe a quote from the STO foundry guy was 'I'll try to get some devs to come in over their weekends to work on that.'
When considering to switch mmo's to this one.... "unlimited content with the foundry" advertising comes into play because it suggests there is end game content. For them to say that the foundry is a waste of money, only shows us that the people we are communicating with do not belong in their positions. 10 points.
1) The foundry is the only reason I bother to continue playing this game.
2) The foundry is the only reason I supported them during the Alpha and the Beta.
3) They made promises about the foundry which they obviously refuse to invest in.
4) They continue to advertise the foundry as a key feature, yet refuse further investment.
5) They do not profit off the foundry with direct measurable results, although if they just took it offline I think their
playerbase would drastically decline.
6) I would like too see them actually shut down the Foundry until next year, and look at their numbers again.
Because without a doubt if they removed it from their advertising and the game entirely... the only thing left
will be bots, newbies, and a few diehards that can't afford to buy a different game.
7) In fact the only reason they received any money from me this year, was because they falsely advertised a
huge Foundry expansion. Isn't that fraudulent?
8) The only thing I hear coming from this PR rep, are lies in my opinion. You're telling me they don't have
a marketing team that crunches statistics? They wouldn't be advertising the foundry if they didn't.
9) Reading that link, and hearing some guy talk about a degree in Cognitive Science from UC Berkley...
makes me glad I did not get a degree from there after reading the entire conversation.
10) It's painfully obvious that PW is only going to milk out what they have already paid for, because they have
no faith in Cryptic to deliver. I don't think there is anything I can say or do to change that.
I just thought I would post my thoughts, now that this has come to light. I was really excited about getting new foundry tools and stuff. So much for a holiday present.
The money people are too small-minded to see the value of diffuse content, only very specific ROI stuff that can be measured exactly.
Which means NW is utterly not a game I will be supporting, because THAT is a recipe for horrible microtransactions and nothing else. No vision.
Very very disappointed.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
Yeah, you may say that you'd totally be willing to give them money if they just did what you're asking, but words are cheap. I've been around these forums and others for many years, and I can't tell you how many times I've seen that same song and dance, of people swearing up and down that they would happily spend tons of money if only the developers would first work on the aspect of the game that makes THEM happy. If you want results, words are meaningless. Actions speak louder - you need to show them that you're spending money because of the Foundry. How you would do that is, unfortunately, difficult to say. But when Cryptic says that it's difficult from a business standpoint to justify spending money on something without a direct return on the investment (and frankly, any business would say much the same thing), telling them that you don't like the answer and to just do it anyway isn't going to accomplish anything.
Check out my Foundry questline, The Brightstone Explorers' Guild, now archived on Youtube!
It's not about respect. Respect is a personal thing. And it's not personal, it's business. I am not quoting Cryptic Studios; I am quoting every single successful business in the world.
Here's your problem (and it's my problem and many, many others' problem): we think we're more important than we are. In truth none of us matter anywhere as near as much as we think we do. Hey, it's nothing personal, it's just business.
This doesn't mean the Devs and other humans at Cryptic are anal jerks - not at all... but everyone has a boss. And even if BadBotLimit (was the Foundry Producer) WANTED to do all these great things, the simple fact is he's not here any more - at least not in that capacity.
He must do what the higher-ups tell him to do and right now I don't think he's even on the Neverwinter team anymore (I spotted him in the Swordsman forums a little while ago). Fact is: HE is the guy they'd have to bring back because he's the one who knows how all this stuff works under the hood. The problem they obviously need him elsewhere right now (His signature also states he is doing stuff for Champions Online, too).
Everyone seems to think it's so easy; 'just snap your fingers and make the magic happen!".
It takes effort and time. A developers effort and time cost the company a lot of money. There are only so many developers. But, I'm willing to bet that if you call Cryptic Studios and tell them you will personally cash-fund 100% of all developer time and resources to do these things you want in Foundry there is the possibility it could happen.
Good luck with that.
I do not concur with this, the market is full of capable DEV's. In fact most of the foundry work needing work is mostly database management and manipulation. The simple facts are... this is a gaming company that won't even put up enough server racks for their servers. That's why Perfect World has the poor reputation that it does. I personally don't think most of their employee's could code there way out of a wet paper bag, and are the replaceable ones in this equation. The customers are not replaceable. Once they lose the market income in game they think it's over. It's not. The IP will live on without Hasbro, Cryptic, or Perfect World. I don't know the dev you speak of, nor do I care... I'm a customer... I just want what they falsely advertise... even after I know they will not live up to their promises.
This is fair. I'm just saying: if you're only willing to spend $100 a month: how many Devs will that get you, and how will you use them? This was my primary point. As for it costs PWE/Cryptic and all that: only they know.
When creating tools for the member of my group at work (who are systems administrators), I tend to write a bit more robust code. I include basic documentation and help text to the tools. I add more error checking and checks for possible gotchas to prevent common mistakes. But these folks are a lot more knowledgeable and experience in IT than most users. I don't prevent them from making stupid mistakes, because they are expected to avoid making them. The extra code that I have to add to the tools take more time to write and especially testing and fixing bugs.
When write tools and supplication for employees, I have to make what I term industrial strength code. I have to include error checking every operation the code does. I have to make sure then ehwn an error occurs the program can gracefully recovery or exit with corrupting data. I have to account for users accidentally hitting the wrong button in a given context. And one has to account for users deliberately trying to do the wrong thing. Creating code like this is time consuming and testing the code take even more time to writing it. And then depending on the size of the application it has to go through 1-4 levels testing and approvals before it even it production servers.
As you can see it's very expensive in time, money and resources to create robust tools like the Foundry. Even more so then you have a signficant population who would be looking for wayus to use it for nefarious uses. In a business environment, you have the advantage of holding users accountable via the livelyhood to ensure they don't do too far in trying to exploit tools. In MMORPGs, the leverage doesn't exist. The users aren't employees. They are you customers.
And even in work, there has to be business justification for implementing new tools or making modifications to them. "Because it wouldbe a cool feature" is not a good justification to use for management and bean counters. You have to speaking in in terms they understand: added income, customer retention, reducing churn.
There is a long wishlist for the foundry. I usually state three things that I feel NEED to be changed.
1) Full Terrain Editor
2) Full Object Library
3) Full Encounter Editor
The object library isn't asking that much is it? More than just a couple statues? Major coding or just Database work?
Terrain editor exploitation? Really? I've played many games that have had full terrain editors since the 90's. Not asking that much imho.
Access to all of their monster models asking too much? Really? Database work.
I realize that it would take time to do some of this stuff, but I don't feel any of those are exploitable. Just means more variety and creativity for Foundry projects.
Things like being able to put a Hit Point bar on a phylactery or siege engine.... or even a breakable cave wall.... all of these little things could make for a more enjoyable experience for everyone.... and I don't see exploitation potential there.
Just thought i'd throw out what I would like too see happen with the foundry.
Featured Foundry Quest: Whispers of an Ancient Evil [v3] - NW-DQ4WKW6ZG
Foundry Quest: Harper Chronicles: Blacklake - NW-DCPA4W2Q5
Foundry un-profitable?
We've given them AT LEAST a half-dozen profitable ideas.
Struggling with PvP?
If they'd allow Foundry authors to create 5v5 PvP maps LOTS of that problem and screaming would go away.
Foundry authors are already creating content that is BETTER than some of Cryptics own -- and we've got an arm, and a leg tied together along with a 100 pound boat anchor for a belt.
Cryptic: "I don't understand why we don't make any money on the stock market"
Joe Shmoe: "What did you invest in?"
Cryptic: "Invest? What's that?"
Encounter Matrix | Advanced Foundry Topics
This AMA guy lumped a couple of the questions together. One person asked for dragons, while another asked to turn regular enemies into bosses. While having boss models would be cool, and would require all that stuff you mention. I personally just want the ability to turn current models into bosses. They have that ability already. Look at the TOD lair bosses.
Example: The "boss" in the WC lair is nothing but a reskinned shocktroop devil. It even keeps the voiceover from it. They gave it a boss healthbar and maybe beefed up its stats. The other TOD lair bosses are pretty much upgraded versions of regular enemies as well. No matter what else does or doesn't happen with the foundry... it would be nice to have this mechanic. We can already reskin/costume a shocktroop devil ourselves. And use it as a boss. But we can't do the rest to turn it into a real boss. Its frustrating seeing they have the mechanic made and don't want to give it to us, whatever the reason.
I concur.
I was only explaining the reasons given to us at the time of original testing. Of course it's been literally two years since all that. I get it with the workload and realignment of Devs onto other projects. But I'd like to see at least a little more done with the Foundry by now, at the very least starting with the rewards given in there.
Thank you for your insight. I'm not a coder myself (at least not for thirty years) but am surrounded by them so I know how it goes. But too many people don't get it (not really their faults, I suppose). I'm not sure where Sn0wst0rmz (and others') angst comes from but that's neither here nor there.
What you describe in your post is more or less what I was trying to summarize, and including the fact that coders have bosses and the bosses reassign coder tasks and projects all the time. People need to remember it's just a little bit more complicated than waving a magic wand.
Which is why I like the mantra "if it's so easy why are you not doing it yourself?"
I am doing it myself -- have been for 40+ years.
That's why I get extreeeeeemely frustrated that so many "1-liner" changes and/or changing a single value "fixes" haven't been done in nearly two years. And soooo many more are "simple" user-interface additions. Granted they do have to go through QA and all, but it's pretty obvious that there is virtually no foundry development happening.
Encounter Matrix | Advanced Foundry Topics
Yeah, at first a little voice in my head was going "What???" when I read that. Players were asking for Power Swapping forever. While gear swapping is a rather recent addition to that request. Sadly it makes sense though. The gear-swapping aspect is only really needed for pvp. With pvp being big on the Russian server or whatever, that's likely where he heard it from.
I remember that same thing being discussed in the Alpha, let alone the Beta. Thought I would chime in again with that tidbit. I really hate getting personal, but after reading the original contents of this post.... well... it pretty much pissed me off. Why? Here's why....
They will take the time to hire a PR puke, that can hop between the games and make up a buncha bullpucky (which we know is false information), and they will pay that person to do so. However, they won't take the time to hire a DEV and pay that person to just go and actually code some of these things into the game.
It leaves me speechless. I just can't figure out if they think we are that stupid... or if the management is completely unaware of this entirely. Perhaps I'm giving them too much credit, for even considering they think at all.
What I do know is that if I was an investor into their company, i'd be clammoring for long term improvements into the foundry above anything else. It's their shining light in the darkness of boring mmo's... and the staff have been completely eroding it since it's inception. WTF?
Check out my Foundry questline, The Brightstone Explorers' Guild, now archived on Youtube!
The simple fact is, they aren't looking toward the long-term. Design a new mount, sell it. Instant $. I understand the need for consistent revenue generation, but as a business owner myself, I would be shooting myself in the foot to think like that 24/7. You HAVE to put a little effort each week into a long-term investment.
Right now, they're so worried about pushing out new content, but they don't see that content is being created every day! They could totally flip their market toward the foundry, and this game would be a powerhouse for years to come.
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I cannot see myself maintaining my level of love and enthusiasm for Neverwinter on it solely being the Forgotten Realms (with all that it entails - art, lore, and history, etc.) for much longer. You've dropped the "ball" already on the Foundry, Cryptic. I didn't stop using the Foundry because I don't like the mechanics or concept. I stopped using it because post-release development of the game has failed to deliver on the purveyances made during pre-release development.
Please, now go pick the "ball" up and put it back in the display case, where it belongs, and give it the attention that it was purveyed as having when the game was still in development and sorely needs right now.
Thanks!
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From post by kirksplat on/at 02-24-2014, 07:07 PM. He gives the tldr version in a post on/at 02-24-2014, 10:14 PM
The problem is that this is a complete confirmation of what we've suspected for a long time -- that they literally can't/won't conceive of the benefit of diffuse improvements that benefit morale and the OVERALL quality of the game.
If you are looking for discrete, small items that have an obvious payoff (like a mount), that is a recipe for a profoundly unsatisfying game.
What bugs me is that over in STO they DO, at least occasionally, seem to have a concept of 'general improvements make for happier customers,' even while they hit up their players for countless microtransactions.
Granted, that concept has never extended to STO Foundry.
Ah well.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?