Yes, I am only at 14.4k currently so not that high in GS terms though I try to keep up with the stat juggling and respect caps, campfire buffs included. Furthermore I'm playing Temptation so my damage is also lower than it could be as Fury specced. But no, I don't hang back hitting one mob with Dreadtheft. I also don't feel a need to chin up since I like my role of healing instead of having to hunt for a DC or GF more than I do topping a Paingiver chart. What I said about ranged and not having to move as much I meant in regard of boss/strong fights where we can choose where to fight while a CW must brave red circles to land their hits.
It will also help if running the DC artifact, something I haven't found the interest in leveling my DC past 43. I'm running out of campaigns though (DR ends today, ToD I stopped once realizing I lacked the books and the grind/RNG involved to getting them, Sharandar I'm down to vibrant seeds) so I'll have more free time and perhaps get back to it. Or just wait for mod5 which will make leveling a DC less of a bore.
I will take your word for it about SW vs CW since you're both higher geared and running a damage build.
I think you need to play some more with SW's cause you are oh so wrong, especially seeing the way you type it... like it's a fact
Feel free to believe what you want, but I have 2 separate SWs. One is over 18K and the other is over 15K. One is Fury the other is Temp. I've done 1000ds of dungeon run parses with both with some top CWs, testing out every existing set and doing parses. Feel free to believe what you want. Hellfire accounts for a ton of damage.
If you think it's wrong, take it up with the ACT folks as the parse doesn't lie. I should also add that on numerous runs, most of us didn't even take any damage.
I've done some tests of my cw's dps, but let me say a couple of things before
1) I play as an oppressor so I'm not able to maximize my dps as a thaum or a renegade
2) In all 3 cases my dps is not really high and i'm sure that one of you can "beat" it, feel free to do a parse and post it here so we can have a better idea
3) I did this on prev because I don't want to use 3 respec non live obv, this changes the dps a bit but it's still close
4) 3 min parsing on the single dummy in iwd
5) I'm using a perfect lightning. 17.8/17.5 GS 8.8k power 30% crit chance 22% arpen
What I said about ranged and not having to move as much I meant in regard of boss/strong fights where we can choose where to fight while a CW must brave red circles to land their hits.
I was thinking just the opposite-It's way easier casting on my CW than my SW. I have a tough time on bosses trying to keep dread theft from being interrupted on my SW, while Icy terrain, conduit, and storm spell are doing damage even when I'm teleporting around avoiding red circles. Then again I put Icy terrain on tab so I can spend the whole fight ranged (I also replace steal time on boss fights with Icy Rays)
Venril Sathir- CW
Venril- SW
Lurch- GF
Mini Ven- DC
I had a plenty grrr time doing eLoL just recently. Every time I would hit DT I'd get knocked by something. It's something hardly noticeable on a CW, but it really borks up a SW. But there are not that many places that can bother a Sw in that aspect. Simply keeping on moving prevents most of that. If we are not already moving when we get a red wizard casting a big circle under us it's going to interrupt. It's easy enough to learn though.
I still find CW smooth as butter compared to SWs. Warlocks are clunky as hell in all they do like casting Fiery Bolt and it hits a mob not cursed or casting Dreadtheft on a mob that decides to go wander somewhere away from the clump (and we cannot move fast to re-orient since DT casts a slow movement debuff, nor can we Shadow Slip).
I would actually like to see a true single target SW parse, say in a dummy. out of curiosity mostly to get my facts straight.
As my experience sort of has been that of catching up with my hr in those moments after a TT burst. hus considering that SWs single target (no adds to feed TT) wasnt thaaaat much higher, if not lower.
I havent run with any very good intimidation gwfs, so i really cant compare. But SInce mod 4 i have never found a gwf to outdps my hr. Mind im not uber geared (r8s).... but ive actually outdpsed many bis hrs and gwf (all orange r10s) pugs. But i would like to see one of those very good ones in action to compare...
but my thought was SW > HR > CW > GWF in balanced dungs.
and CW > SW > HR > gwf in addfests.
Mind im not braggng or anything, just want to get my fcts straight of where roughly classes stand.
After trying different combinations the below is my best single target parse on IWD dummy:
Just my 2cent opinion. Playing thrum SS CW, Fury SW, PF archery HR
Cw will have higher damage, with mobs slightly spread out or bunch up. AOE work in a big circle area
Sw will have higher damage, with TT up often and group is bunch up. DT work in a straight line while TT work on a big circle area
Hr will have higher damage, if there is no SW/CW around and group is bunch up close for the Rain of Arrow (Small circle area)
Hr will be good at single not moving target,also due to rain of arrow
this is the parse i did a month ago, so it should be higher now with better gear (more power and artifact belt)
Further tweaking of single target rotation: Warlock's Bargain > Wraith's Shadow > Curse Bite
GS is 18.4K, geared for AP to 24% Power > Crit > "therest"
I was unable to get any sort of rotation or priority setup that included Dreadtheft to exceed 18K dps consistently(again for singlet target). Curse Bite turned out to be greater than Killing Flames for single target because you get two casts in before the others come off cool down most cycles. I kept all parses at 4-6 minutes to replicate the duration of a longer boss encounter and so no bursty parses.
0
inthefade462Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited October 2014
things like that is the reason I don't give any credence to training dummy runs. I don't even know where this solo IWD dummy is but I don't think I could top any of those tables except the CWs, without resorting to using gimmick attacks or sets like that. Since the combat mechanics of training dummies differ than real dungeon scenarios it's mostly useless for comparing performance, unless you are only concerned with performance against training dummies. In that scenario it looks like HR has a slight lead, spamming aimed shot, vs an SW not using dread theft. lol two things that would never happen in a dungeon.
Back to dungeons though, to give you an idea of what intimidation GWFs are doing:
This is in epic lostmauth which i'm sure you are aware only has about 25mil total damage available. Of course you can't compare different classes in different dungeon runs. Party composition, timing, buffs, debuffs etc all are variables which can skew your results any way you want them to. A CW can run around solo with 4 afk's and come in and claim 20mil on paingiver, it doesn't mean anything. You can only compare within individual runs.
my damage that run:
As you can see i barely eek past him and largely due to Fiery Bolt bug giving me at least 300k ghost dmg via Tyrannical threat on the first golem pack. (8% of that 44% TT is wrong. ~5% should be moved to Fiery Bolt and the rest should not exist. Not exactly sure how its bugged but i'm close to figuring out exactly how to replicate it.) Without that "tt bug" i'm only a few hundred k above him.
edit: hard to see pic, gwf is 8.9mil, i am 9.4mil.
The rest of the party was a Tempt lock with 4.3mil, HR with 2.5mil and DC with 600k dmg totals. These are ~8-9min runs, the HR was some /lfg pug cannot vouch for their skill or gear. Again i've seen an HR come in a close 3rd (like 8mil sw 7mil gwf 6mil hr) so I don't doubt that they are capable.
Oh and single target? I still don't know where HRs fall on that list in actual dungeons, but man did I underestimate GWF.
37% of damage dealt to Lostmauth (the dragon) is from GWF compared to 39% from SW Except that's the damage from 2 SW. Admittedly one is tempt and not dmg focused but still, gwf clearly pulls ahead on single target.
so GWF > SW > CW on single target, with HR falling in there somewhere, definitely above CW but whether they can compete with GWF or SW i don't know.
my typical runs are dc gwf sw and 2 fills. The 2 fills are whoever is around, and if guild/friends list comes up empty then its whoever's available from /lfg. I've ran with all types of players of all classes, great players of every class and scrubs too. In a largely single target/low add environment like epic lostmauth CWs are not competitive. They are lucky to beat the tempt lock in dmg, usually they are 4th. If it's just me and a CW or 2 then sure they'll take a distant 2nd, but If there isn't a GWF in party then the runs are noticeably slower. I can't comment on the runs without an SW since I am a SW of course.
Hopefully that should give you some indication of what intimidation GWF is capable of. These are not scrub runs, nobody is dying, we are not struggling or taking our time through any of these fights. Scorps dead in 15 seconds, lostmauth is at 37% health before he flies off, etc. I know it's hard to read but his average intimidation hit is 60k. average. That's 600k (cagi+ds) damage on average per group of mobs. It's not that we stop and fight every little group, everything is dead and whatever isn't gets dragged to the next set. The only reason SW can even keep up is because we are truly a ranged class and we have sprint so we can begin attacking at 80' (and the gwf is pretty much in melee range by that point or just after). A CW using the current Meta of melee ranged spells for eots/storm/assailant procs is doing 0 dps because teleports cannot keep up with sprint until threatening Rush range annnnd everything's dead instantly.
things like that is the reason I don't give any credence to training dummy runs. I don't even know where this solo IWD dummy is but I don't think I could top any of those tables except the CWs, without resorting to using gimmick attacks or sets like that. Since the combat mechanics of training dummies differ than real dungeon scenarios it's mostly useless for comparing performance, unless you are only concerned with performance against training dummies. In that scenario it looks like HR has a slight lead, spamming aimed shot, vs an SW not using dread theft. lol two things that would never happen in a dungeon.
Dummy parses are for testing loadouts/comparing. While they are not real gameplay scenarios they are actually more valid for comparison sake because there is no external factors influencing, like the rest of the party´s buffs, debuffs and interrupts. Actually in real play the dps will probably go up even with the interrupts because of the buffs/debuffs. for example i myself im loosing a whooping 30% damage buff from combat advantage granted from aspect of the pack, regardless of any other team buffs. The only way to measure and compare in real game scenario would be parsing several runs of the same party doing the same dung, so at least everything external was equalized, and it would be a me and you comparison. Btw add me if you want to do so anytime.
the most optimal single target loadouts can be different from the standard trash ones, thats pretty obvious, ask any cw, so i woudnt discard the rotations themselves. as if in single target situation (fulmi, val and lol) u have to change the rotation its not the end of the world or even uncommon. So if there is something more optimal than dreadtheft, why not. I wont use aimed in the rest of the dung but, ill slot it in with rapid in those to interweave them in when the occation allows it. (i actually parse in a similar fashion)
as for gwf, yeah ive seen more intimidation ones now, pretty dope and they are back to the high dpsers again with it for sure, shame i didint meet one with same gear or superior yet. But btw looking at that parse... LOL, how broken can intimidation be? 2/3s of the dps comes from that proc, and we though stormspell was broken with roughly 1/3 of the dps. thas gona be fixed for sure.
I think HR single target dps is roughly even with SW (hr might have slight edge depending on encounter) as per what ive seen in those parses, as his GS was pretty similar to mine back when i did that parse. Last one i did with my now 19k is around 25k but so will his SW go higher with more gear.
edit: added a parse from taday.... and it should actually be higher coz for some reason it didnt register the seismic shot damage which is a big burst addition, i think i fired off like 2 in around 3 mins i was parsing.
PS: It would be pretty cool if u could get ur gwf friend to post a single target parse to see what kind of insanity is going on.
Comments
It will also help if running the DC artifact, something I haven't found the interest in leveling my DC past 43. I'm running out of campaigns though (DR ends today, ToD I stopped once realizing I lacked the books and the grind/RNG involved to getting them, Sharandar I'm down to vibrant seeds) so I'll have more free time and perhaps get back to it. Or just wait for mod5 which will make leveling a DC less of a bore.
I will take your word for it about SW vs CW since you're both higher geared and running a damage build.
Feel free to believe what you want, but I have 2 separate SWs. One is over 18K and the other is over 15K. One is Fury the other is Temp. I've done 1000ds of dungeon run parses with both with some top CWs, testing out every existing set and doing parses. Feel free to believe what you want. Hellfire accounts for a ton of damage.
If you think it's wrong, take it up with the ACT folks as the parse doesn't lie. I should also add that on numerous runs, most of us didn't even take any damage.
1) I play as an oppressor so I'm not able to maximize my dps as a thaum or a renegade
2) In all 3 cases my dps is not really high and i'm sure that one of you can "beat" it, feel free to do a parse and post it here so we can have a better idea
3) I did this on prev because I don't want to use 3 respec non live obv, this changes the dps a bit but it's still close
4) 3 min parsing on the single dummy in iwd
5) I'm using a perfect lightning. 17.8/17.5 GS 8.8k power 30% crit chance 22% arpen
OPPRESSOR
THAUM
RENEGADE
I was thinking just the opposite-It's way easier casting on my CW than my SW. I have a tough time on bosses trying to keep dread theft from being interrupted on my SW, while Icy terrain, conduit, and storm spell are doing damage even when I'm teleporting around avoiding red circles. Then again I put Icy terrain on tab so I can spend the whole fight ranged (I also replace steal time on boss fights with Icy Rays)
Venril- SW
Lurch- GF
Mini Ven- DC
I still find CW smooth as butter compared to SWs. Warlocks are clunky as hell in all they do like casting Fiery Bolt and it hits a mob not cursed or casting Dreadtheft on a mob that decides to go wander somewhere away from the clump (and we cannot move fast to re-orient since DT casts a slow movement debuff, nor can we Shadow Slip).
After trying different combinations the below is my best single target parse on IWD dummy:
this is the parse i did a month ago, so it should be higher now with better gear (more power and artifact belt)
Cw will have higher damage, with mobs slightly spread out or bunch up. AOE work in a big circle area
Sw will have higher damage, with TT up often and group is bunch up. DT work in a straight line while TT work on a big circle area
Hr will have higher damage, if there is no SW/CW around and group is bunch up close for the Rain of Arrow (Small circle area)
Hr will be good at single not moving target,also due to rain of arrow
Further tweaking of single target rotation: Warlock's Bargain > Wraith's Shadow > Curse Bite
GS is 18.4K, geared for AP to 24% Power > Crit > "therest"
I was unable to get any sort of rotation or priority setup that included Dreadtheft to exceed 18K dps consistently(again for singlet target). Curse Bite turned out to be greater than Killing Flames for single target because you get two casts in before the others come off cool down most cycles. I kept all parses at 4-6 minutes to replicate the duration of a longer boss encounter and so no bursty parses.
Back to dungeons though, to give you an idea of what intimidation GWFs are doing:
This is in epic lostmauth which i'm sure you are aware only has about 25mil total damage available. Of course you can't compare different classes in different dungeon runs. Party composition, timing, buffs, debuffs etc all are variables which can skew your results any way you want them to. A CW can run around solo with 4 afk's and come in and claim 20mil on paingiver, it doesn't mean anything. You can only compare within individual runs.
my damage that run:
As you can see i barely eek past him and largely due to Fiery Bolt bug giving me at least 300k ghost dmg via Tyrannical threat on the first golem pack. (8% of that 44% TT is wrong. ~5% should be moved to Fiery Bolt and the rest should not exist. Not exactly sure how its bugged but i'm close to figuring out exactly how to replicate it.) Without that "tt bug" i'm only a few hundred k above him.
edit: hard to see pic, gwf is 8.9mil, i am 9.4mil.
The rest of the party was a Tempt lock with 4.3mil, HR with 2.5mil and DC with 600k dmg totals. These are ~8-9min runs, the HR was some /lfg pug cannot vouch for their skill or gear. Again i've seen an HR come in a close 3rd (like 8mil sw 7mil gwf 6mil hr) so I don't doubt that they are capable.
Oh and single target? I still don't know where HRs fall on that list in actual dungeons, but man did I underestimate GWF.
37% of damage dealt to Lostmauth (the dragon) is from GWF compared to 39% from SW
Except that's the damage from 2 SW. Admittedly one is tempt and not dmg focused but still, gwf clearly pulls ahead on single target.
so GWF > SW > CW on single target, with HR falling in there somewhere, definitely above CW but whether they can compete with GWF or SW i don't know.
my typical runs are dc gwf sw and 2 fills. The 2 fills are whoever is around, and if guild/friends list comes up empty then its whoever's available from /lfg. I've ran with all types of players of all classes, great players of every class and scrubs too. In a largely single target/low add environment like epic lostmauth CWs are not competitive. They are lucky to beat the tempt lock in dmg, usually they are 4th. If it's just me and a CW or 2 then sure they'll take a distant 2nd, but If there isn't a GWF in party then the runs are noticeably slower. I can't comment on the runs without an SW since I am a SW of course.
Hopefully that should give you some indication of what intimidation GWF is capable of. These are not scrub runs, nobody is dying, we are not struggling or taking our time through any of these fights. Scorps dead in 15 seconds, lostmauth is at 37% health before he flies off, etc. I know it's hard to read but his average intimidation hit is 60k. average. That's 600k (cagi+ds) damage on average per group of mobs. It's not that we stop and fight every little group, everything is dead and whatever isn't gets dragged to the next set. The only reason SW can even keep up is because we are truly a ranged class and we have sprint so we can begin attacking at 80' (and the gwf is pretty much in melee range by that point or just after). A CW using the current Meta of melee ranged spells for eots/storm/assailant procs is doing 0 dps because teleports cannot keep up with sprint until threatening Rush range annnnd everything's dead instantly.
Dummy parses are for testing loadouts/comparing. While they are not real gameplay scenarios they are actually more valid for comparison sake because there is no external factors influencing, like the rest of the party´s buffs, debuffs and interrupts. Actually in real play the dps will probably go up even with the interrupts because of the buffs/debuffs. for example i myself im loosing a whooping 30% damage buff from combat advantage granted from aspect of the pack, regardless of any other team buffs. The only way to measure and compare in real game scenario would be parsing several runs of the same party doing the same dung, so at least everything external was equalized, and it would be a me and you comparison. Btw add me if you want to do so anytime.
the most optimal single target loadouts can be different from the standard trash ones, thats pretty obvious, ask any cw, so i woudnt discard the rotations themselves. as if in single target situation (fulmi, val and lol) u have to change the rotation its not the end of the world or even uncommon. So if there is something more optimal than dreadtheft, why not. I wont use aimed in the rest of the dung but, ill slot it in with rapid in those to interweave them in when the occation allows it. (i actually parse in a similar fashion)
as for gwf, yeah ive seen more intimidation ones now, pretty dope and they are back to the high dpsers again with it for sure, shame i didint meet one with same gear or superior yet. But btw looking at that parse... LOL, how broken can intimidation be? 2/3s of the dps comes from that proc, and we though stormspell was broken with roughly 1/3 of the dps. thas gona be fixed for sure.
I think HR single target dps is roughly even with SW (hr might have slight edge depending on encounter) as per what ive seen in those parses, as his GS was pretty similar to mine back when i did that parse. Last one i did with my now 19k is around 25k but so will his SW go higher with more gear.
edit: added a parse from taday.... and it should actually be higher coz for some reason it didnt register the seismic shot damage which is a big burst addition, i think i fired off like 2 in around 3 mins i was parsing.
PS: It would be pretty cool if u could get ur gwf friend to post a single target parse to see what kind of insanity is going on.