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Forums > Home› NeverwinterPreview Shard (PC)› NeverwinterPreview - Feedback/General Discussion

Armor Penetration Issues from a Rogues Perspective

brilliantcomradebrilliantcomrade Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 45
edited October 2014 in NeverwinterPreview - Feedback/General Discussion
So to clarify, I am a 17k PvE TR with artifact weapon and belt and I am close to the Armor Penetration "Hard Cap" and it appears to me that Module 5 will make it even harder.
Here is my issue, I am forced to play with an armor set (If I want to get below the "Hard Cap") that I don't want to use because I can't lower my armor pen without spending big money and when I say that I mean without replacing my purple shirt, pants or legendary artifacts.
If a TR decided that he wanted to invest in dps and nothing else then with boons + soon to be the best armor + the best weapons + the best artifacts a TR would find he is nearing the armor pen "Hard Cap".

250 - DR boon
200 - ToD Boon
154 - Shirt/Pants
276 - (2/3 of the artifact main hands(level 35)
276 - (Artifact offhand)
250 - Set Bonus
217 - (Dex Belt)
383 - Draconic Templar Hood
315 - Draconic Templar Gloves

2321 Armor Pen which is only JUST below the "Hard Cap" and we aren't considering Artifacts, Companion Actives, Augment Companions and Jewelry. Even then, there are MANY debuffs in this game including our own that lower the defense of our enemies which means we are just throwing away stats which is very unsatisfying. So I plea with the Devs, make Armor pen "Hard Cap" go away by either making armor pen less rewarding/giving enemies higher defense or redoing how defense works on enemies so that a damage bonus is gained when an enemy is at a negative amount of defense.
Post edited by brilliantcomrade on

Comments

  • burkaancburkaanc Member Posts: 2,186 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    it is not a hard cap, its just that its a bit more useful to stack power after you have 24% arp than armorpen, it still increases your damage
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  • ryugasiriusryugasirius Member Posts: 996 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    There is no "hard cap" for ArP, it is implemented (in PvE) in a way that having higher ArP still increases your damage, just not as much as stacking power.

    (BTW, if you are worried you have too high ArP, why are you picking ArP related boons? O_O)
  • mconosrepmconosrep Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    burkaanc wrote: »
    it is not a hard cap, its just that its a bit more useful to stack power after you have 24% arp than armorpen, it still increases your damage
    ryugasirius wrote: »
    There is no "hard cap" for ArP, it is implemented (in PvE) in a way that having higher ArP still increases your damage, just not as much as stacking power.

    Since when has this been true? I was always under the impression that the 24% for PvE was a hard cap ......
  • brilliantcomradebrilliantcomrade Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 45
    edited October 2014
    ryugasirius wrote: »
    There is no "hard cap" for ArP, it is implemented (in PvE) in a way that having higher ArP still increases your damage, just not as much as stacking power.

    (BTW, if you are worried you have too high ArP, why are you picking ArP related boons? O_O)

    For the ArP Boons, I did that because as I said, "If a TR decided he wanted to invest in dps" that would mean you wouldn't want to toss up those damage related boons for a defensive boon.

    As for what both of you have said about ArP http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Armor_Penetration seems to contradict what you say.

    "Armor penetration cannot increase a target's susceptibility to damage beyond reducing their damage resistance to zero, which means that armor penetration has no effect past the point where a character's resistance ignored reaches an opponent's damage resistance"
  • ambisinisterrambisinisterr Member, Neverwinter Moderator Posts: 10,462 Community Moderator
    edited October 2014
    There is no hard cap for armor penetration or any skill.

    However in PvE no monsters have higher than 24% damage resistance as of Module 2 at least. I am not sure (though I doubt) that new monsters have higher than 24% damage resistance.

    However it's hardly difficult to avoid the situation you are running into. The most obvious thing to avoid is the boons. You can cut back on 450 points just by choosing the other options. I mainly play a hunter ranger and HR have a much harder time staying below 24% DR. In fact I am at 30% without even trying. Whenever I see a boon which offered armor penetration it meant that no matter what I should take the other boon. No matter what the other boon is you'll get more return than the armor pen so take the other options.

    Additionally if you want to use all of the items you have listen there it really just means you can focus your other items in other aspects. For instance I prefer to give my GF a defensive armor set so that I can focus all other items on offense.


    The final thing is that if using those items is helping you it really doesn't matter if you go above 24%. Like I said I am at 30% on my HR but the armor pen he has is unavoidable due to the other reasons I wear those items. Even though I am 6% past the benefit I will gain from PvE ArP the other aspects I gain from using those specific items still make it worthwhile.

    So at the end of the day you always have the choice not to use something because of the armor pen.

    In the mean time other items that other TR's may choose to use don't have ArP. That was a huge complaint when I spoke to rogues between launch and M3. The items you cite as pushing you over 24% due to your choices may be what gets them to 24%. There are always two sides of the coin.
  • estellegaillard3estellegaillard3 Member Posts: 4 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    There is no hard cap at 24%, but let's try not to get stuck on numbers. I can agree with you that IF there would be a hard cap on, the valye is calculated too high, the items giving to much, especially since you are not including pets, actives etc.
  • ironzerg79ironzerg79 Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,942 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    Debuffs and Armor Penetration don't conflict. They stack. The way most debuffs work is to actually INCREASE the damage a monster takes, not DECREASE their actual defense.

    Which is why the first 24% is so critically important.
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  • thedemienthedemien Member Posts: 830 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    Guys, quick question about related topic Arm pen topic
    I do often see in log for my HR something like - you Rapid strike did 3000 (2500) damage to .... (Number are from head not from actual log ,but are close)
    Even on bosses like in epic SoT. I do assume that this is cause of Arm pen. Trick is that this is not on PB. Just regular Rapid strike. At the same time my arm pen is 2.4k plus +5% from STR. So technically Im way above Soft cap for Arm pen.
    But here comes funny part
    1. having Dark enchantments r9 slotted give me +400 GS score so arm pen is ~2.5k
    2. Having Radiant r9 sloted gives +200 GS score.
    3. Having RG set makes Arm Pen ~3.5k =30% or so. But I feel like number in log are even bigger - 3500 (2500).

    So can anybody explain this really? Im kinda confused. Either they did made cap higher or something else?
    Also please correct if Im wrong but number 3000 is actual dealt damage and (2500) is base? or is it opposite?
  • rayrdanrayrdan Member Posts: 5,410 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    3000 is the dealt, 2500 is what you would deal without debuff.
    armor pen is not a debuff.

    rank 10 gives 300 gs regardless the type
  • thedemienthedemien Member Posts: 830 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    rayrdan wrote: »
    3000 is the dealt, 2500 is what you would deal without debuff.
    armor pen is not a debuff.

    rank 10 gives 300 gs regardless the type

    Thanks for corrections. You pretty much answered main questions. Will dig into testing more later.
  • brilliantcomradebrilliantcomrade Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 45
    edited October 2014
    ambisinisterr wrote: »
    There is no hard cap for armor penetration or any skill.

    However in PvE no monsters have higher than 24% damage resistance as of Module 2 at least. I am not sure (though I doubt) that new monsters have higher than 24% damage resistance.

    However it's hardly difficult to avoid the situation you are running into. The most obvious thing to avoid is the boons. You can cut back on 450 points just by choosing the other options. I mainly play a hunter ranger and HR have a much harder time staying below 24% DR. In fact I am at 30% without even trying. Whenever I see a boon which offered armor penetration it meant that no matter what I should take the other boon. No matter what the other boon is you'll get more return than the armor pen so take the other options.

    Additionally if you want to use all of the items you have listen there it really just means you can focus your other items in other aspects. For instance I prefer to give my GF a defensive armor set so that I can focus all other items on offense.


    The final thing is that if using those items is helping you it really doesn't matter if you go above 24%. Like I said I am at 30% on my HR but the armor pen he has is unavoidable due to the other reasons I wear those items. Even though I am 6% past the benefit I will gain from PvE ArP the other aspects I gain from using those specific items still make it worthwhile.

    So at the end of the day you always have the choice not to use something because of the armor pen.

    In the mean time other items that other TR's may choose to use don't have ArP. That was a huge complaint when I spoke to rogues between launch and M3. The items you cite as pushing you over 24% due to your choices may be what gets them to 24%. There are always two sides of the coin.


    I mentioned in a previous reply that this hypothetical TR wants damage.
    Yeah sure you could cut back on the 450 ArP from boons to get some mild buffs to defense (3% deflection severity would make me 0.75% tanker (No direct impact on damage) vs 250 ArP) .

    Now the concern I was trying to address here is that according (http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Armor_Penetration) Getting above 24% armor pen in PvE means that there is no more damage gain after the 24% which means that for somebody wanting to maximize their damage they would need avoid getting any more than 24% armor penetration and at the current state that is exactly what I am going to need to do on my TR.
    If I end up getting the artifact offhand Ill have several hundred excess armor pen which means ill probably need to swap out one of my artifacts as well as something else because the new TR gear is giving MASSIVE amounts of armor penetration where it isn't needed so I am here trying to get a message to the devs telling them that armor pen isn't something we really need for late game TR sets because any TR that manages to get the Draconic Templar set is most likely going to have epic or legendary artifacts and won't need the armor pen from it and if they do then they can slot an enchantment for it instead of just running all radiant on offence slots.

    Edit: Also because of the high amounts of armor pen that comes naturally Red dragon glyphs seem quite pointless because the 800 points in armor pen are never going to help very much outside of pvp
  • ambisinisterrambisinisterr Member, Neverwinter Moderator Posts: 10,462 Community Moderator
    edited October 2014
    Armor Pen isn't something you need but it is something other people need.

    There are people on the other end of the spectrum sacrificing things they desire to get additional armor pen.

    You have the option to not take the boons for armor pen. It does not effect your damage but then again neither does the armor pen so...I don't see how this isn't common sense. You don't need the ArP so ANYTHING would be better. You have the option to take it as it is helping you more. You not wanting to is a problem on your end. The game is full of choices you have to make.

    This is what happens as you build your character. You have to start making choices.

    Happening to use the items which grant ArP and then saying it is a problem because of your specific build doesn't mean it's a problem. You want items with armor pen. Other people use a lot of other items without ArP so they need that armor pen.

    Is the other benefits from certain items worthwhile even if they push you over 24% ArP or should you consider other options. There are other options. The fact you are choosing not to use them doesn't make it a problem.
  • reiwulfreiwulf Member Posts: 2,687 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    Is TR the only class that doesn't get Arp on a specific stat? I've read it but I'm not sure.
    If it is, shouldn't TRs get Arm on a stat like other classes?
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  • mconosrepmconosrep Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    reiwulf wrote: »
    Is TR the only class that doesn't get Arp on a specific stat? I've read it but I'm not sure.
    If it is, shouldn't TRs get Arm on a stat like other classes?

    CWs (and DCs maybe) don't either I think.
  • mojoratmojorat Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 90
    edited October 2014
    The armor pen from stats thing seems to be something not part of original game design but tacked on afterwards. Its actually problematic for a few reasons. 1) it means stats for armour between classes are not balanced. If a Tr or can has to stack 2500 armor pen that's probly 1300 or so gs that another class has in other stats 2) there's no reason for it to exist in the game for over.

    My tr has 2500 armor pen almost fully from profound scoundrel gear. My SW has 26% from int and half the amount of armor pen.

    I'm honestly not sure the reason for this.
  • brilliantcomradebrilliantcomrade Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 45
    edited October 2014
    ambisinisterr wrote: »
    Armor Pen isn't something you need but it is something other people need.

    There are people on the other end of the spectrum sacrificing things they desire to get additional armor pen.

    You have the option to not take the boons for armor pen. It does not effect your damage but then again neither does the armor pen so...I don't see how this isn't common sense. You don't need the ArP so ANYTHING would be better. You have the option to take it as it is helping you more. You not wanting to is a problem on your end. The game is full of choices you have to make.

    This is what happens as you build your character. You have to start making choices.

    Happening to use the items which grant ArP and then saying it is a problem because of your specific build doesn't mean it's a problem. You want items with armor pen. Other people use a lot of other items without ArP so they need that armor pen.

    Is the other benefits from certain items worthwhile even if they push you over 24% ArP or should you consider other options. There are other options. The fact you are choosing not to use them doesn't make it a problem.

    We are talking about end game TRs, ones who will be geared enough to run through the hardest dungeons in the game.
    With everything I have said here and assuming that they are using the latest gear won't NEED to sacrifice anything to get more armor pen because there is so much so readily available just from the gear which is my issue.
    They are about to give us TRs about 600+ armor pen on the newest end game gear compared to the previous set of end game gear (Draconic) which means we won't have a choice on slotting extra ArP because we won't need it and even if we do then we CAN slot it because that's what enchantment slots are for. I am suggesting that perhaps they make the set bonus from artifact main hand/offhand +250 Power and +250 Crit instead of the +250 ArP and +250 crit because if that doesn't change we won't have flexibility with our end game items because we will already be at the brink of having too much ArP so we won't want to have an artifact that gives us +350 ArP because that will put us over the edge.

    You also keep referring back to boons, other classes like the CW and the SW are able to take those ArP boons without reaching the cap so that boons boost their dps but I am limited in taking dps boosting boons because my gear doesn't give me that flexibility?
    I am suggesting that they don't give us a whole load of a stat that is limited in its usefulness because that's stupid, a CW doesn't get close to this cap with just armor/weapons so they have the option of getting ArP from many other different sources such as artifacts, ioun stones, enchantments and accessories.
  • rayrdanrayrdan Member Posts: 5,410 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    brilliantcomrade wrote: »
    We are talking about end game TRs, ones who will be geared enough to run through the hardest dungeons in the game.
    With everything I have said here and assuming that they are using the latest gear won't NEED to sacrifice anything to get more armor pen because there is so much so readily available just from the gear which is my issue.
    They are about to give us TRs about 600+ armor pen on the newest end game gear compared to the previous set of end game gear (Draconic) which means we won't have a choice on slotting extra ArP because we won't need it and even if we do then we CAN slot it because that's what enchantment slots are for. I am suggesting that perhaps they make the set bonus from artifact main hand/offhand +250 Power and +250 Crit instead of the +250 ArP and +250 crit because if that doesn't change we won't have flexibility with our end game items because we will already be at the brink of having too much ArP so we won't want to have an artifact that gives us +350 ArP because that will put us over the edge.

    You also keep referring back to boons, other classes like the CW and the SW are able to take those ArP boons without reaching the cap so that boons boost their dps but I am limited in taking dps boosting boons because my gear doesn't give me that flexibility?
    I am suggesting that they don't give us a whole load of a stat that is limited in its usefulness because that's stupid, a CW doesn't get close to this cap with just armor/weapons so they have the option of getting ArP from many other different sources such as artifacts, ioun stones, enchantments and accessories.

    and i m still telling you that you did a wrong gear choice.
    i have no problem with armor pen on my TR
  • beckylunaticbeckylunatic Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 14,231 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    ambisinisterr wrote: »
    You don't need the ArP so ANYTHING would be better.

    Actually, since the deflection option on the third Thayan boon (Illusionary Shimmer?) doesn't give anywhere close to what it says it does, nobody who knows better takes anything here but the arpen one, not even healer clerics.
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  • brilliantcomradebrilliantcomrade Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 45
    edited October 2014
    rayrdan wrote: »
    and i m still telling you that you did a wrong gear choice.
    i have no problem with armor pen on my TR

    You're still telling me I did a wrong gear choice? What are you even saying here sir i would love for you to elaborate since this is the first post in this thread regarding gear choice.
    What set do you run on your TR?
    Is your TR PvE or PvP?
    Did you maybe consider that there was a reason I put M5 gear in the post?
    You say your a 19k TR and your suggesting that your not going to get the artifact offhand because that's the wrong gear choice.
    Please elaborate or just stay out of here.
  • suddenlyslowsuddenlyslow Member Posts: 818 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    beckylunatic wrote: »
    Actually, since the deflection option on the third Thayan boon (Illusionary Shimmer?) doesn't give anywhere close to what it says it does, nobody who knows better takes anything here but the arpen one, not even healer clerics.

    I think it is bugged, it gives like 3% of whatever ones deflection severity is (so for a TR you would go from 75% to 75.2% with this boon -- not worth it at all).
  • rayrdanrayrdan Member Posts: 5,410 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    brilliantcomrade wrote: »
    You're still telling me I did a wrong gear choice? What are you even saying here sir i would love for you to elaborate since this is the first post in this thread regarding gear choice.
    What set do you run on your TR?
    Is your TR PvE or PvP?
    Did you maybe consider that there was a reason I put M5 gear in the post?
    You say your a 19k TR and your suggesting that your not going to get the artifact offhand because that's the wrong gear choice.
    Please elaborate or just stay out of here.
    what i am saying is that artifacts give you tons of armor pen? do you have them? im running with profound scoundrel set, artifact: vanguard, cleric, gwf.
    all boons with armor pen.
    off hands corrupt BI, which gives 280 armor pen so not big deal when i will have to change it.
    i m sitting at 2600 armor pen.
    the profound set gives you tons of armor pen, you may want to change it with someone other or just running in corrupt gear which has literally 0 armor pen.

    now i m not sure why you are so in need of the new set: general rule is the newer the set, the more it sucks. And this is not going to be different.
  • brilliantcomradebrilliantcomrade Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 45
    edited October 2014
    rayrdan wrote: »
    what i am saying is that artifacts give you tons of armor pen? do you have them? im running with profound scoundrel set, artifact: vanguard, cleric, gwf.
    all boons with armor pen.
    off hands corrupt BI, which gives 280 armor pen so not big deal when i will have to change it.
    i m sitting at 2600 armor pen.
    the profound set gives you tons of armor pen, you may want to change it with someone other or just running in corrupt gear which has literally 0 armor pen.

    now i m not sure why you are so in need of the new set: general rule is the newer the set, the more it sucks. And this is not going to be different.

    Well if you had a look at the new set you might realize that the new set is most likely going to be one of the best sets for a TR because of its set bonus is most likely going to help the party a lot and its going to have considerably more stats than previous sets. I also it seems you didn't even read the initial post, it clearly says what armor this hypothetical TR is using is the latest armor which isn't profound (Sorry if this bursts your bubble) and why mention corrupted either? Ill say it again just to make sure you get the message, we are talking about Mod 5 gear (preview server) gear that's not out yet and currently on the preview server if a TR wanted to fully deck himself out on Artifact Weapon/Offhand/Belt and the newest and probably one of the best sets of gear he's going to have so much ArP that its going to limit his boon/artifact choices.
  • rayrdanrayrdan Member Posts: 5,410 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    i saw the mod 5 gear and the general rules remain: the newer the set, the more it sucks.

    did you have seen it?? it sucks ffs.

    but let s discuss why it sucks:

    new set: TOTAL GEAR 5831 BONUS SET: ENEMY HAS -10% CRIT SEVERITY ....mmmm "so good"

    HP 3678
    CRIT 1046
    POWER 1023
    DEFEN 698
    ARMOR PEN 698
    DEFLECT 700
    REGEN 315
    REC 428
    LIFE STEAL 0


    ****ty profound: TOTAL GEAR 4550 - BONUS SET: +7% DAMAGE +30% STEALTH ....seem better?

    HP 0
    CRIT 463
    POWER 1162
    DEFEN 546
    ARMOR PEN 1146
    DEFLECT 657
    REGEN 0
    REC 0
    LIFE STEAL 546


    now discuss:
    1) older set has more armor pen than new ones. Your point was?
    2) new set has a crappy bonus
    3) new set has less power
    4) new set has regen, as far as i know life steal > regen
    5) comparable defense
    6) comparable deflect
    7) new TR will have 100% crit in stealth.....which set has less crit? the old one.
    8) oh hei new set has 428 recovery, must have


    regarding me not having read your initial post: i sincerely did and what seemed to me was that you just want to wear the new things cuz they are new. How many High vizier CW do you think are going to wear this draconic stuffs?
  • brilliantcomradebrilliantcomrade Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 45
    edited October 2014
    The crappy new set also reduces the damage than enemies to by 10% and with a 25 man dungeon that's actually going to help a tonne. Also this crappy set has overload slots which give a hell of a lot of bonuses. Also a funny thing to note here, profound has WAY more ArP so if a rogue had artifact weapon/offhand and the ArP boons there is going to be no more room for slotting ArP no Arp artifacts, overloads, enchants, accessories (inc belts)

    1) older set has more armor pen than new ones. Your point was?
    Profound isn't a PvE armor set and any rogue using it for pve only is doing it wrong. The best sets for PvE are swash/draconic currently
    2) new set has a crappy bonus
    The new set doesn't have a crappy bonus
    3) new set has less power
    The new set had overload slots that can give 900 power for 2/3 of the time
    4) new set has regen, as far as i know life steal > regen
    Yeah regen > lifesteal unless your a perma stealth rogue then regen > lifesteal
    5) comparable defense
    Hardly comparable with the set bonus unless you consider stealth to be defence (which it won't be for tiamat)
    6) comparable deflect
    Comparable defence, HP, Recovery, Crit
    7) new TR will have 100% crit in stealth.....which set has less crit? the old one.
    new TR won't have 100% stealth unless you like static boring gameplay
    8) oh hei new set has 428 recovery, must have
    Yeah, I prefer recovery over many stats, recovery gives me more damage than ArP and possibly crit so hell yeah for recovery
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