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Can SWs compete with CWs in DPS?
vestige321
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 149 Bounty Hunter
I'm just wondering for those running T2, VT, eLoL, are you guys able to compete with CWs in damage done or are CWs still ahead most times?
Post edited by vestige321 on
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Venril- SW
Lurch- GF
Mini Ven- DC
Is this in aoe based or single target? I'm assuming AOE with tyranical threat?
Most of the time I find that in a well geared party I don't do as much since things die so fast I don't even have the time to pull out TT which tends to be our equalizer. It is difficult to climb on the damage when we need to ramp up and a CW blows things with huge and consecutive crits.
On the other side if things are dying that fast then the dungeon is going at a good clip and it does not matter.
That's true I suppose. I'm just looking for a reason to bring SWs into dungeons since CWs do as much and they provide control...why bring an SW?
I'm able to out dps most cws in eLoL / SoT / MC / Kessell's etc, however unless there's some 22k gs or some lucky cws in party or im training a companion or something.
Point to note, our enchantments / gear / feats / boon / play style that we use has a great impact on how much we can dps. Temptation warlock does survive a lot better at the expanse of slightly little dps,
I heard they are gonna reduce life steal from their final capstone, therefore I switched to fury a month ago.
In the end of the day dungeons are cleared and everyone is happy.
军医骑士 超过三千水平 突破极限释放开
Daily: Granworm Sword
Enounter: Vow of Enmity | Worm Smasher | 縮退砲
Class Feature: Kabbalah System
Aura: Warp Field
IGN: Faluzure 19k Tenebrous Soulbinder Scourge Warlock
(The Corrupted) (Retired)
Are you and the CWs equal geared and also by how much?
Do you out DPS them in the T2 dungeons? Like say CN?
I was doing extra 3 mil damage if I went ahead and stay alive.
I have never tried CN, while completing other dungeons.
军医骑士 超过三千水平 突破极限释放开
Daily: Granworm Sword
Enounter: Vow of Enmity | Worm Smasher | 縮退砲
Class Feature: Kabbalah System
Aura: Warp Field
IGN: Faluzure 19k Tenebrous Soulbinder Scourge Warlock
(The Corrupted) (Retired)
If there are tons and tons of very weak minion adds then they auto die to stormspell procs from unlimited target attacks before you can curse much less begin applying dps. This will get worse once mod 5 hits (because CWs are not losing any storm spell dmg, they are actually gaining a bit, and all of the dmg that stormspell does is getting front loaded to eots crits).
If it's only single target, or if there are adds, but they are high hp adds like golems, maws, tougher elites, etc, then SW will deal more damage than CW.
It's been my experience thus far that the following is true.
Will always beat equally geared/skilled CW in the following dungeons:
MC, VT, LOL, FH (due to last boss fight, until then it's about even)
Will always lose to equally geared/skilled CW in the following dungeons:
Karru, CN, PK
too close to call/care/depends on playstyle:
ToS, SP, DV, Skirmishes
ymmv
This really sums up everything
军医骑士 超过三千水平 突破极限释放开
Daily: Granworm Sword
Enounter: Vow of Enmity | Worm Smasher | 縮退砲
Class Feature: Kabbalah System
Aura: Warp Field
IGN: Faluzure 19k Tenebrous Soulbinder Scourge Warlock
(The Corrupted) (Retired)
Because you enjoy the class. Seems like a good reason, no? I stopped playing my CW because it annoyed how all my better spells were almost melee. Icy Terrain, Slow Time, Sudden Storm. It left me with Ice Conduit and Chilling Cloud as my only real ranged moves.
But I also liked Temptation. Decent damage, fast soloing for dailies, can heal dungeons. Above all, all my moves are ranged which suits me far better.
NW is not that hardcore so really, play what you like the most.
Fury IS the DPS spec and I would do a lot more damage as fury but i wanted a little more utility just in case the group doesn't have a healer. My DPS as temptation is still very good though.
Well, you can bring temptation SW's into dungeons because they can heal the group and CW's can't. Fury SW's are extremely high damage but so are HR's.
Venril- SW
Lurch- GF
Mini Ven- DC
I do agree. When I played my CW, it kind of annoyed me that I had to be melee range and as we know, melee has harder time and I like easy to play classes :P
But honestly, if CWs are doing more damage than scourge warlocks, it makes me wonder why bring an SW from a performance perspective rather than enjoyable one. Like let's say harder content is released, why bring an SW to harder content if CWs can do more and provide more?
Throughout the entire dungeon run yes. However, single target parses in most cases tend to put me only behind good HR's. CW's and I are neck-and-neck in that regard. And yes, of course, tyrannical threat.
You know what I'd love to see. Just a single target parse between CW, SW and HR and see where they stand.
sw >>>>>>hr >>>>>cw
But why does it feel like CWs blow HRs and SWs in paingiver even in single target? Maybe you are seeing it due to gear difference? Equally geared CWs won't lose?
Single target a fury SW will out damage a CW and HR.
In the new dungeons a competent SW will always out damage even the best CW. In the old dungeons it's impossible to out damage a competent CW because there are tons and tons of adds that die way to quickly.
I should also add that if the SW is not wearing accursed then I don't consider them to be competent as they are giving up 20% of their dps.
Makes you wonder that if the next item set isn't as good, SWs will get left in the dust.
On the contrary. I was being generous to those mythical CW that i've never seen or grouped with, that allegedly are still top dawg in terms of dmg at end game gs. Forum CW are rather sensitive to paingiver tables and there place on it, and hey, i haven't grouped with everyone in pve, so I gave you a list and conditions for reasonable expectations for cw vs sw dmg.
CWs should be able to out damage SW in a couple of dungeons, karru, pk, cn. just due to the % of mobs which are no hp minion trash. In my experience they don't, but on paper they should.
Ever since my sw was geared (no longer wearing blues running t2s) I've been out damaged twice. Once in a CN run to a cw right after the TT nerf, where I was testing other dailies and didn't use TT until draco. It was 30mil to 38mil before draco, and 35m to 40mil after. The other time I was out damaged was to a 15k power intimidation GWF in run 7 out of like 11 runs of elol, and only cus i afk'd for some of the trash clearing.
In my experience CWs are maybe 3rd now in paingiver, behind SW (#1) and behind (intimidation) gwf's (#2). I don't know where HR fall because I've only ever seen one do respectable dmg in pve, so I don't have the greatest data set to compare them to other classes. That HR was right below said intimidation gwf, so higher than CW but, only ever seen 1 HR in this category.
But again I haven't grouped with errybody on the server to have incontestable empirical evidence to state facts. I do run with some of the best cw/gwf/etc players on the server but there's always going to be someone out there who'll get offended by saying they aren't the best, or who only runs with scrub 12k sw or whatever. If you wanna believe that your cw is the greatest thing since slice bread go ahead more power to you.
Hey maybe there are some crazy good CW out there. has any CW heavy team 1 shot lostmauth yet? We're getting pretty close to it. Can get him down to about 20-25% hp before he flies off and the 2nd phase starts. Of course he always respawns at 50%
Pardon? A 'normal' CW (AKA max DPS) uses tabbed Ice Conduit, Icy Terrain, Slow Time and Sudden Storm. These are not fluff spells, they are max DPS.
- Slow Time stuns up to eight mobs.
- Tabbed Ice Conduit applies Chill which 'stun' (freeze) when reaching six stacks.
- Icy Terrain also applies Chill Stacks and has no target limit.
- Chilling Cloud also applies Chill.
Just combining tabbed Chill Conduit and Icy Terrain is an almost immediate room wide freeze of anything controllable.
Unless you're playing with some pretty questionable CWs, alwys a possibility. I ran VT with a 16k CW who kept Shield on to 'survive', as she claimed.
To the thread in general: Allow me to re-insist on how this is a lot of e-peen stroking. Who goes first in the Paingiver chart is pure fluff. It is useless. If I heard about *utility* when picking CW or SW I would understand it better. A CW can freeze whole rooms at a time and do brutal burst thanks to Eye of the Storm. Thanks to that their utility is unmatched with clearing trash or CCable mobs that don't get fight back and have chunks of their HP removed.
On the other hand they are squishy and most of their spells are in melee range. Once the burst has ended they need to dance around telegraphs to continue casting their almost-at-melee range which becomes more dangerous and more difficult.
A DPS SW has little to offer but damage. They can dip into Temptation and do the temporary HP thing. They do lots of damage though, and that damage is fully ranged. Once the initial burst phase is over and the sustained damage phase is entered they can safely throw damage with minimal moving. The reason why a SW will rarely top the charts (despite the claims in this thread) is eye of the Storm and the AoE and front loaded nature of the CW spells during the myriad trash mobs.
Assuming there is a fight, EotS is expended, and then there is a 14 second gap to finish moping up, collect shinies and move on to the next trash pack (it is usually less than 14 seconds, but lets go with it) then they have a 100% crit chance for 6 seconds to unload all their AoE spells, incidentally proccing lots of also critting Spellstorm. A SW has no way to match this. Our four piece bonus needs six seconds to start ticking, DreadTheft needs six seconds to do its full damage, Harrowstorm/Warlock's Bargen is a DoT and not frontloaded damage. Only Fiery Bolt is clean, pure burst damage.
This is offset by Tyrannical Threat in which a warlock can clean a room of adds in seconds. Saving this for the right moment can clear a room full of boss adds leaving everyone free to continue landing damage. This is both utility and damage.
A Temptation warlock allies the best of two worlds. Less damage than Fury but they go *marvelously* with a CW. Anyone who uses their guild/friend list/Legit to form a group can eschew the LFG demands of *needing* a DC and a GF in the party before it deigns up to form a group. DCs are a rarity, GF's are a rarity, since both classes do pitiful damage as they level and that only slows down more once reaching level 60.
*Both* a CW and a Temptation warlock can pretty much make do without both a GF and a DC. Of course both will be welcome and can be useful in some extreme situations, but I have done VT and eLoL, CN amongst others without a DC or GF and just myself as a healer and CWs freezing everything.
So, yes, please, less <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out to the Paingiver charts (I do make a mini game out of it, but in private). Embrace our wizardly brethren and may the gods of phat lewt be with you.
I would actually like to see a true single target SW parse, say in a dummy. out of curiosity mostly to get my facts straight.
As my experience sort of has been that of catching up with my hr in those moments after a TT burst. hus considering that SWs single target (no adds to feed TT) wasnt thaaaat much higher, if not lower.
I havent run with any very good intimidation gwfs, so i really cant compare. But SInce mod 4 i have never found a gwf to outdps my hr. Mind im not uber geared (r8s).... but ive actually outdpsed many bis hrs and gwf (all orange r10s) pugs. But i would like to see one of those very good ones in action to compare...
but my thought was SW > HR > CW > GWF in balanced dungs.
and CW > SW > HR > gwf in addfests.
Mind im not braggng or anything, just want to get my fcts straight of where roughly classes stand.
I think you need to play some more with SW's cause you are oh so wrong, especially seeing the way you type it... like it's a fact
To answer the OPs question, at low skill levels CW>SW, while at high skill levels it depends on the fight & team composition.
Also don't confuse Paingiver with DPS. Paingiver is just the total amount of damage that was credited to you during the dungeon run, while DPS is damage/second, they are very different concepts. In Neverwinter not even ACT can give you a correct estimate of your DPS, since for that, it would need to know when you started using a power, when you finished using it, when it stopped dealing damage, when you've entered combat, when you've exited, at least, and none of that is logged, for that ACT requires a plugin, which requires modding support from the game. Right now, ACT calculates your DPS / encDPS, by using guesstimated combat times, so it's nowhere near accurate, but it's still better indicative of your performance than the Paingiver.
Further more you might wanna adjust your play style a bit, you describe SW gameplay as sitting at range and not moving much which is a big mistake, you're missing out on tons of Dread Theft damage which is where you overcome CW's eots/stormspell. In some dungeons you might not be able to overcome it if there's nothing but minion trash and only like 1 or 2 elites per 10 trash mobs but i've already listed those handful of dungeons where a CW really excels.
I see you mention legit, I run with legit ppl all the time i'd be more than happy to run with you and see whats up. BTW there really is no difference between legit and /lfg in terms of skill/gear/etc they both run the full gamut of clueless to pro. With the exception of the bacon spammers, legit ppl are less annoying/more friendly but in terms of effectiveness in dungeons i'm just as likely to carry a legit team as I am a 16k+ only /lfg team.
Ximae next time I do some lol runs i'll log it and post the ACT parses of Lostmauth's incoming damage. In the meantime you really should try and run with a good intim GWF (14k+ power, unbuffed). 200-400k intimidation procs are common, highest i've seen so far was 836k intimidation crit. Obviously this is getting nerfed in mod 5 but for right now they really are highly competitive in damage, they give most SWs a run for their money.
Thing is i havent been playing much lately and the intimidation change is sort of recent, so most of my experience playing with bis gwf is from b4 then. But for example last night i was running epic DV with a couple good gwf and some other HRs. I was surprised that i wasnt too much ahead of the gwfs, I had like 1k gs more and artifact weapon at legendary while theirs was still epic (didnt check their power). So im really seeing they got really buffed.... but i havent had the pleasure to running with an equally geared intimidation gwf for comparison sake.
But then we 3 were practically doubling the dps of the other 2 hr, and one of them was a bis 22k gs one... so go figure, and i wasnt even using the red glyphs just power ones, and for half of the run as they died out on me. So what i mean is that a 22k gs bis geared hr, might not be exactly the best for comparson if he doesnt know what he is doing.
Btw id rather u posted a dummy parse, coz just party/powers/set compositions of them can make a huge difference in dps with the buffs/debuffs. So its a bit more stable comparison.
Maybe they're all in premades or guild groups?
Venril- SW
Lurch- GF
Mini Ven- DC