The DC vs SW beef

nordveig · October 2014

I've just come from Kessels Retreat I had two scourge warlocks in my team and I beat them both on healing. My GS is 13 293, the other two SWs had around 13, 793 and the other one had a GS of 15,000 something. I'm starting to think SW beating DC for healing is exaggerated.

By the way I've gotten better as a DC and worked on one of the classes weaknesses. The SW can heal while on the move, even though a DC can throw up an astral shield which is static the class can also cast forgemasters flame which it can cast somewhere else on the field. I've also starting utilising astral seal when I'm having trouble dealing with a party which is split up. With astral seal you can cast it on an enemy and any player that attacks it will get a a heal, also its at-will power as well which means you can cast it constantly.

Just representin for DC.

silverkelt · October 2014

nordveig wrote: »

I've just come from Kessels Retreat I had two scourge warlocks in my team and I beat them both on healing. My GS is 13 293, the other two SWs had around 13, 793 and the other one had a GS of 15,000 something. I'm starting to think SW beating DC for healing is exaggerated.

By the way I've gotten better as a DC and worked on one of the classes weaknesses. The SW can heal while on the move, even though a DC can throw up an astral shield which is static the class can also cast forgemasters flame which it can cast somewhere else on the field. I've also starting utilising astral seal when I'm having trouble dealing with a party which is split up. With astral seal you can cast it on an enemy and any player that attacks it will get a a heal, also its at-will power as well which means you can cast it constantly.

Just representin for DC.

I have no beef with SWs, however, you fail to mention what build those SWs had? You knew they were temp warlocks?

Pretty easy to beat a fury warlock.

Frankly due to black ice damage negating astral shield mitigation its pretty useless there. FF however is a good feature to pull out for your melee types. SB as well, then combine DG to burn things quicker instead.

nordveig · October 2014

silverkelt wrote: »

I have no beef with SWs, however, you fail to mention what build those SWs had? You knew they were temp warlocks?

Yea I did forget to mention it and it did cross my mind, I was just too busy celebrating. Is there a way to check?

Yea I do kinda have a beef with SW's there takin my spot. That's my job to heal, since when in DD history did Warlocks get known for healing? Anyway to be fair I guess it not right as we build more classes just to have one support class.

equ4lizer · October 2014

nordveig wrote: »

Yea I did forget to mention it and it did cross my mind, I was just too busy celebrating. Is there a way to check?

Yea I do kinda have a beef with SW's there takin my spot. That's my job to heal, since when in DD history did Warlocks get known for healing? Anyway to be fair I guess it not right as we build more classes just to have one support class.

As im about to hit 19k gs and had 3.3k life steal (temptation warlock),
i dont recall any dc healing more than i do. But i sure do love any party members including trs and dcs as i believe everyone helps out a lot.

hudman21 · October 2014

I have a temptation Warlock 16K GS , and to date I have not been out healed in any dungeon by a DC. Usually I at least out heal by double any DC's in the group. In our guild's CN runs we don't even take a DC since I can heal it just fine.

That said, I also don't offer any big buffs/debuffs to the party (Except for Aura of Despair). That's one stat DC's give that doesn't show up on the spread sheet.

Prior to the new SW I healed with a 16K GS DC. He is now on the shelf. Its much easier for me to heal with my warlock.

inthere23 · October 2014

nordveig wrote: »

I've just come from Kessels Retreat I had two scourge warlocks in my team and I beat them both on healing. My GS is 13 293, the other two SWs had around 13, 793 and the other one had a GS of 15,000 something. I'm starting to think SW beating DC for healing is exaggerated.

By the way I've gotten better as a DC and worked on one of the classes weaknesses. The SW can heal while on the move, even though a DC can throw up an astral shield which is static the class can also cast forgemasters flame which it can cast somewhere else on the field. I've also starting utilising astral seal when I'm having trouble dealing with a party which is split up. With astral seal you can cast it on an enemy and any player that attacks it will get a a heal, also its at-will power as well which means you can cast it constantly.

Just representin for DC.

I play both DC and Temptation SW, the SW out heals my DC by about 3-4 times. You definitely had Fury warlocks in your group.

If I had to choose a healer for a group, I'd still take a DC over a temp SW any day of the week, at least the way I play DC because of buffs/debuffs and damage mitigation. My DC buffs power about 2,000 every fight with a feated Blessing of Battle and linked spirit and also debuffs with divine glow and high prophet to make up for the personal DPS loss and actually give the group even more overall dps than a SW.

silverkelt · October 2014

inthere23 wrote: »

I play both DC and Temptation SW, the SW out heals my DC by about 3-4 times. You definitely had Fury warlocks in your group.

If I had to choose a healer for a group, I'd still take a DC over a temp SW any day of the week, at least the way I play DC because of buffs/debuffs and damage mitigation. My DC buffs power about 2,000 every fight with a feated Blessing of Battle and linked spirit and also debuffs with divine glow and high prophet to make up for the personal DPS loss and actually give the group even more overall dps than a SW.

I have one of every class to 60 now, except GF, people get too caught up with class balance debate, I have fun with every class, every class has viability, people chase those X screen captures too much.

Temp SW is ok to have, I would say DC provides a broader range of utility, buffs, debuffs and overall will make a run smoother for the most part. Overall , none of it matters, you can do it all with almost any class builds with 5 people who generally can place their class ok.

DCs will heal more if the group is a melee group, melee also gets the majority of the buffs/debuffs as well. Which is one of the major stumping points of my arguments that the DC needs a rework to party wide buffs/heals.

equ4lizer · October 2014

silverkelt wrote: »

I have one of every class to 60 now, except GF, people get too caught up with class balance debate, I have fun with every class, every class has viability, people chase those X screen captures too much.

Temp SW is ok to have, I would say DC provides a broader range of utility, buffs, debuffs and overall will make a run smoother for the most part. Overall , none of it matters, you can do it all with almost any class builds with 5 people who generally can place their class ok.

DCs will heal more if the group is a melee group, melee also gets the majority of the buffs/debuffs as well. Which is one of the major stumping points of my arguments that the DC needs a rework to party wide buffs/heals.

DCs are still **** useful to have for buffs and debuffs. I still cant say if they are able to out heal temptation warlocks though.

silverkelt · October 2014

SW will heal more , for almost every run, due to the fact the DC , will not be in full heal mode, even if they are in FF, SB, Ashield, Aseal total party heal, its still skewed by the need of the part to stand in the shield and the more range you have the lower the effect of sheild to start with.

On top of that, most DCs dont bother slotting the class feature to increase healing, might as well use ap gain to slam down more HGs along the way, then most DCs wont use that full heal rotation, becuase you would have to drop Divine Glow as well, then on top of that, most DCs just use High Prophet and not one of the healy sets like mircale healer.

If you had a SW/DC run with a DC in full heal mode and the SW also not skewing it by avoiding the shield, it could be interesting, needs to be done around the same general class score to see and every run is different anyways.

Bottom line, SW provides loads of party healing, by the use of DPS, which will be generally 30-50% lower dps then a a fury SW, a DC could provide more healing, for sacrificing their buffing/debuffing.

But who cares, they both work.

theosymphany · October 2014

Healing charts in particular are dependent on several things- firstly enemies need to do damage. If most of that damage is mitigated there is simply less to heal. Secondly is timing- if your HP is full or near full any additional heal isn't counted. Just a matter of who manages to heal first. Given DC healing is from encounters which have a cooldown, templocks have an easier time getting healing done beforehand.

DCs and SWs work very well together. Firstly DCs (and some SW feats) help minimise overall damage taken, and SWs heal as they damage, which is usually at the start of the encounter when damage is taken. After the first rotation there usually isn't much left to heal, which is usually when DCs would have done their healing.

Finally, and the most important point which I've yet to see mentioned- DC bring righteousness, which increases incoming healing for the other party members for 70%. With Astral Shield this is increased to 100%. This is a significant heal and effectively almost doubles whatever the SW is lifestealing. This boosted base lifesteal is then shared to nearby party members via soul bonding, which then again receives the multiplicative effect. Where there is a DC and temptation warlock in party when played right the SW will almost always receive most outgoing healing on field medic charts from righteousness alone. Like I always say, the best things a DC bring is not recorded on the charts and in fact everything a good DC does further minimises our own numbers. If you do the math, the righteousness effect alone account for more healing than the SW's base output, but really if healing is done and everyone's alive, all is great.

kozi001 · October 2014

Well now that TT is fixed (somewhat...) temptlocks can't outheal and outdps everything in the same time.

equ4lizer · October 2014

I have to agree with theosymphany

nurmood · October 2014

kozi001 wrote: »

Well now that TT is fixed temptlocks can't outheal and outdps everything in the same time.

*sigh*

1. TT doesnt trigger Lifesteal edit: (actually im not 100% sure on this after the recent fix?)

2. Dont post in this Forum just to complain about SW being Paingiver - thanks
3. It happens that i STILL top damage and healing charts
4. People complain about CW's being a controller and still top damage charts too yadayada*yawn*
5. Let's all wait for the DC overhaul first shall we?

theosymphany wrote: »

but really if healing is done and everyone's alive, all is great.

That's right - people still like to have DC's around

PS:

I play a DC since 1 year by now

leandreav1 · October 2014

I think one of the important things not mentioned is how a tempt warlock will grossly out-DPS a DC. To bring one along instead of a DC means things die faster which is the ultimate debuff. So far I have taken the place of a DC a few times and never caused a wipe but there are points where a DC's mitigation and not needing to rely on hitting mobs to heal, not to mention not being an agro magnet, makes one valuable.

But overall, in my (short) experience doing a number of different dungeons, it is best to bring more damage. The content may have started hard but with the power creep of GS it no longer is the early-days-of-Cataclysm-CC-or-wipe time. It feels more like WotLK AoE fest.

As long as people can dodge the red their HP (and the occasional potion) will stay at full.

demonkyuubi · October 2014

clerics are still useful for the buffs. templocks can always benefit from foresight and astral shield so they can live longer and not be 1-shot all the time in some boss fights.

there are times in shores of tuern boss fight where me and the cleric are the last ones standing. as long as i can dodge somewhat well and the cleric makes sure by throwing down a buff to mitigate the 1-shots just in case, it's a vast improvement over needing to dodge perfectly or wipe. compared to the wizards/hunters that can't stay in melee range and turn the boss into my direction for an instant nuke, i rather have a cleric instead. heck, i would take 2 of them just to be safe xD. but queue is faster than lfg so meh.

kozi001 wrote: »

Well now that TT is fixed temptlocks can't outheal and outdps everything in the same time.

some templocks still do that. in fact, all we really have to do is have high ap gain and a cleric arty to spam it almost every fight.

inthere23 · October 2014

leandreav1 wrote: »

I think one of the important things not mentioned is how a tempt warlock will grossly out-DPS a DC. To bring one along instead of a DC means things die faster which is the ultimate debuff. So far I have taken the place of a DC a few times and never caused a wipe but there are points where a DC's mitigation and not needing to rely on hitting mobs to heal, not to mention not being an agro magnet, makes one valuable.

But overall, in my (short) experience doing a number of different dungeons, it is best to bring more damage. The content may have started hard but with the power creep of GS it no longer is the early-days-of-Cataclysm-CC-or-wipe time. It feels more like WotLK AoE fest.

As long as people can dodge the red their HP (and the occasional potion) will stay at full.

And I will repeat this because it seems some didn't read my 1st post.

An AC DC with Blessing of Battle/Battle Fervor will bring a LOT more overall DPS to a group than a temptation warlock. My Temptation warlock tops paingivers 80% of the groups I join, most of the time even with fury warlocks in the same group. In fact, only 2 fury warlocks have outdamaged me in over 100 runs in eLOL/ESOT.

Yet my DC bring more DPS to a group and runs are not only faster, they're smoother too. My DC has 9k power. Blessing of battle feated with battle fervor gives everyone in the group 15% of my power and at the same time gives damage mitigation which stacks with astral shields' damage mitigation. Lead off with BOB and lay astral shield under your tank and almost nothing can one shot him.

Divine glow debuffs the mob's damage resistance but also buffs ally damage if they're in the AOE. Linked spirit buff's ally stats 5% of my stats per ally affected. It doesn't sound like much but if the entire party is affected in my case that would be +1500 power (that stacks with BOB) plus crits, defense, deflect, armor pen, lifesteal, regen, etc etc. Oh, and also linked spirit has no target cap, I once buffed everyone in a Remorhaz HE 14,000+ power. I personally had 23k+ power.

So every fight I'm buffing everyone an average of 2,000+ power plus stats plus defense plus damage mitigation and well as debuffing with High Proph and divine glow. And that's not counting Hallowed Ground(more damage and MORE mitigation) which, with the DC artifact is almost always up nor greater plaguefire for additional debuffing.

My SW has a perf vorpal and does great damage and great healing, but he's not going to speed up a group like a DC.

twilightwatchman · October 2014

Why is there this drive to make SW and DC competing classes? I have both a Templock and a DC and I consider them to be complementary to each other. Isn't it a good thing that there are now 2 classes that can heal effectively but have different additional strengths?

hadestemplar · October 2014

heh. one of you write there that furry build warlock is easy to beat. I don't think so. The problem with warlocks are that they are full of bugs. I have furry build. And i decide to ask some more details about some feats on furry build. And find out that many feats are still bugget and QA didn't notice then. So I could say that furry or TT build is till bugged. And only in upcoming patches will be fixed some of problems..

And there is on thing and the most important is that gear/enhance are more important than your build. I have spoken with couple warlocks which are neither furry or temptation build. There where mixed from all 3 feats lines. And yet they could out dps anyone in party and also survive 5 players attack without big problem.. Gear/enhances thats current top priority.. Feats/skills are number second..

inthefade462 · October 2014

DC vs SW beef? There is no beef between these 2 classes.

DC are buff/debuffers. Nobody has invited a DC for the purposes of Healing since Mod 1.

SW are DPS. Temptation tree SW also can do a lot of in combat party healing, but it's completely unnecessary.

query523 · October 2014

TLock and DC healing are completely different. TLock heals through their capstone which heals others at 2x their own LS rate. So they heal constantly anyone who is injured so long as they are attacking whether they need it or not. The Tlock cannot heal specifically those who need it the most it is a general effect on the entire party. Which menas that the TLock will heal, over the course of a delve, more HP than a DC. But much of this healing will be superflous. What the TLock lacks is the series of debuffs available to the DC. So really they serve different roles overall. The TLock contributes DPS and a secondary HP boost evenly applied. The DC contributes debuffs and targeted healing on those most in need.

candinho2 · October 2014

Also clerics arent healer aswell on D&D, also DC's are becoming stronger then sw on next module, will be very embarrassing seeing a sw(heavy dps class) getting less damage then DC(support/heal class).

twilightwatchman · October 2014

And Templocks have just been gimped. Shared lifesteal down from 200% to 125% in upcoming Preview patch.

chemboy613 · October 2014

Personally, I have both a SW and a DC.

My templock heals DIRECTLY way more than my DC does - and I'm fine with this. Yeah we are healing, but that means the team is taking damage.

As a DC it's my philosophy the best heal that can happen is a heal that never has to happen.

That's because the best way your team can take damage is to not take damage.

Hence, a yellow Astral shield (100% incoming healing, 30% DR), righteousness (70% incoming healing), hollowed ground, divine armor, anointed army (powerful buffs), exhalation (incredible DR, incoming healing and regen), and the anointed class feature (temp HP in casts of divine powers), do not count much in FIELD MEDIC charts, but do incredible things at PREVENTING damage.

So yes, my SW HEALS more, but the team takes much less damage and heals themselves much better with my DC in the group.

I really don't care about the charts at all, so this is great for me. My DC loses field medic all the time, but hey, my DC's parties win the dungeon all the time. That's what actually matters.

damnataanimus · October 2014

twilightwatchman wrote: »

And Templocks have just been gimped. Shared lifesteal down from 200% to 125% in upcoming Preview patch.

Yes guess time to go fury sigh.

inthere23 · October 2014

twilightwatchman wrote: »

And Templocks have just been gimped. Shared lifesteal down from 200% to 125% in upcoming Preview patch.

Gimped? I don't think so. Not the way temp locks healing works. We aren't even using half of what we're actually capable of anyway. We can still heal while DPS'ing way more than even the new DC can.

And take a guess how many DC's are going DPS just as soon as the changes go live.

damnataanimus · October 2014

inthere23 wrote: »

Gimped? I don't think so. Not the way temp locks healing works. We aren't even using half of what we're actually capable of anyway. We can still heal while DPS'ing way more than even the new DC can.

And take a guess how many DC's are going DPS just as soon as the changes go live.

Vs the current implementation yes it is gimped. It is nearly half as effective as it used to be. Also last time I checked DC's do more than just heal like oh buff mitigation and buff healing etc.

inthere23 · October 2014

damnataanimus wrote: »

Vs the current implementation yes it is gimped. It is nearly half as effective as it used to be. Also last time I checked DC's do more than just heal like oh buff mitigation and buff healing etc.

We won't notice the difference in practice because we're doing tons of overhealing already. And we certainly won't notice on the healing charts because it won't show a noticeable difference. And last i checked I did two posts in this very thread detailing how well DC's can buff/debuff.............

chemboy613 · October 2014

inthere23 wrote: »

We won't notice the difference in practice because we're doing tons of overhealing already. And we certainly won't notice on the healing charts because it won't show a noticeable difference. And last i checked I did two posts in this very thread detailing how well DC's can buff/debuff.............

DCs are amazing amazing amazing buff and debuffers. That is way more valuable than any healing they could do. Best damage is damage that never happens (mitigation) and best mob is dead mob (debuff). DC are best in game at both.

inthere23 · October 2014

inthere23 wrote: »

And I will repeat this because it seems some didn't read my 1st post.

An AC DC with Blessing of Battle/Battle Fervor will bring a LOT more overall DPS to a group than a temptation warlock. My Temptation warlock tops paingivers 80% of the groups I join, most of the time even with fury warlocks in the same group. In fact, only 2 fury warlocks have outdamaged me in over 100 runs in eLOL/ESOT.

Yet my DC bring more DPS to a group and runs are not only faster, they're smoother too. My DC has 9k power. Blessing of battle feated with battle fervor gives everyone in the group 15% of my power and at the same time gives damage mitigation which stacks with astral shields' damage mitigation. Lead off with BOB and lay astral shield under your tank and almost nothing can one shot him.

Divine glow debuffs the mob's damage resistance but also buffs ally damage if they're in the AOE. Linked spirit buff's ally stats 5% of my stats per ally affected. It doesn't sound like much but if the entire party is affected in my case that would be +1500 power (that stacks with BOB) plus crits, defense, deflect, armor pen, lifesteal, regen, etc etc. Oh, and also linked spirit has no target cap, I once buffed everyone in a Remorhaz HE 14,000+ power. I personally had 23k+ power.

So every fight I'm buffing everyone an average of 2,000+ power plus stats plus defense plus damage mitigation and well as debuffing with High Proph and divine glow. And that's not counting Hallowed Ground(more damage and MORE mitigation) which, with the DC artifact is almost always up nor greater plaguefire for additional debuffing.

My SW has a perf vorpal and does great damage and great healing, but he's not going to speed up a group like a DC.

I'll post my earlier reply since no one reads more than 3 replies...

damnataanimus · October 2014

inthere23 wrote: »

I'll post my earlier reply since no one reads more than 3 replies...

And I will direct you to my signature with two geared DC's. I am well aware of what the class can do - but apparently reading comprehension is hard.

inthere23 · October 2014

damnataanimus wrote: »

And I will direct you to my signature with two geared DC's. I am well aware of what the class can do - but apparently reading comprehension is hard.

Yes it is because I was replying to you trying to tell me about mitigation and buffing. I know all about your geared DC's and I told you all about DC buffs, debuffs, and mitigation, when we were in the same guild when you were telling me how badly Temptation warlocks were outhealing them.

The same SW which, btw you switched to after I told you about GF buffs and the difference between GF and GWF tanks, after which the very next day you announced you were retiring your GWF and moving all your enchants to your SW.

The DC vs SW beef

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