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TR changes in mod 5 that could make everyone happy.
dakbur
Member Posts: 152 Bounty Hunter
I’ve spend a good deal of time thinking about how to balance our class and make everyone (mostly) happy. I think I have it so I want to get a discussion going on this little thought experiment. Please don’t simply say “fix bugs, triple damage, done”
1st core change to the class: Using at-wills will increase the rate of stealth meter depletion by 300-400%. I know pretty much everyone hates this idea, but keep reading before grabbing for your flamethrower.
2nd core change to the class: Introduction of a power that does not break stealth, but sets a trap similar to DC chains. When used out of stealth, it could do weak-moderate damage but a long stun or prone.
I think the themes for the feat trees should be set up as follows:
Saboteur = stealthy tree
Scoundrel = CC tree
Executioner = DPS tree
-Saboteur Tree = Add a Tier 4 feat that reduces stealth depletion from at-will use under stealth by 20/40/60/80/100%.
-Scoundrel Tree = This would add/lengthen stuns/dazes to LB, IS, & other abilities as well as a moderate increase in damage.
-Executioner Tree = High Increased damage from IS & LB (and others) or greatly reduced CDs.
A few Power changes…
Deft strike = half the cooldown, slightly increased damage.
Blitz = 7 sec cooldown (instead of 12) [optional for balance -work these CDs into the tier 1 & 2 feat trees]
Path of the Blade = 15 sec CD (instead of 25) & hits multiple opponents [optional for balance -work these CDs into the tier 1 & 2 feat trees]
Sky flourish = Now hits multiple opponents 5' in an arc front of you [optional for balance -work this into a heroic or T1 feat tree]
By working some changes like these, those that wanted to stay perma, can do so, but would have to spec specifically for it and give up a hefty portion of DPS.
Those that want high DPS can get it .
Those that are willing to trade some damage for CC can get it.
Everybody can get much better AoE abilities and a much improved closing ability.
That’s the basic overview… lemme grab my flame retardant cloak…
1st core change to the class: Using at-wills will increase the rate of stealth meter depletion by 300-400%. I know pretty much everyone hates this idea, but keep reading before grabbing for your flamethrower.
2nd core change to the class: Introduction of a power that does not break stealth, but sets a trap similar to DC chains. When used out of stealth, it could do weak-moderate damage but a long stun or prone.
I think the themes for the feat trees should be set up as follows:
Saboteur = stealthy tree
Scoundrel = CC tree
Executioner = DPS tree
-Saboteur Tree = Add a Tier 4 feat that reduces stealth depletion from at-will use under stealth by 20/40/60/80/100%.
-Scoundrel Tree = This would add/lengthen stuns/dazes to LB, IS, & other abilities as well as a moderate increase in damage.
-Executioner Tree = High Increased damage from IS & LB (and others) or greatly reduced CDs.
A few Power changes…
Deft strike = half the cooldown, slightly increased damage.
Blitz = 7 sec cooldown (instead of 12) [optional for balance -work these CDs into the tier 1 & 2 feat trees]
Path of the Blade = 15 sec CD (instead of 25) & hits multiple opponents [optional for balance -work these CDs into the tier 1 & 2 feat trees]
Sky flourish = Now hits multiple opponents 5' in an arc front of you [optional for balance -work this into a heroic or T1 feat tree]
By working some changes like these, those that wanted to stay perma, can do so, but would have to spec specifically for it and give up a hefty portion of DPS.
Those that want high DPS can get it .
Those that are willing to trade some damage for CC can get it.
Everybody can get much better AoE abilities and a much improved closing ability.
That’s the basic overview… lemme grab my flame retardant cloak…
Post edited by dakbur on
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Comments
they're good changes that don't require THAT much work.
Although the fact they almost implemented it without realising gloaming increased stealth until the last minute gives you some idea of what we can expect in the future.
Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion)
Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
I would like to see Tr's get their old single target damage back to at least half it's effectiveness as at launch. I remember getting 10-16k crit bleeds ticking every half second. 30-60 k lashing blades from lurkers assault, and 70+k crits with shocking execution. All of this with no debuffs on the target, a 9k GS, no weapon enchant, and stats that were not optimized.
Naturally, doing this in the wrong way would imbalance them for PVP. However, this could be rectified with the following change to the live version of flurry.
Flurry *rework* : The bleed effect of this power now stacks up to 30 times. Each bleed stack adds a 1% chance for the bleed effect of flurry to crit.
Any person that lets you land 3 or more consecutive flurries on them in pvp with less that 6 seconds in-between each flurry deserves to die, or likely, is already dead.
Sabotuer and scoundrel capstone feats need to be made more viable as well.
Also though, they made it clear they don't want to alter stealth duration, but stealth utility. TR is already lacking in defensive capability so much that it can't afford to lose any stealth as far as duration. I would hate to see stealth duration shortened in any manner, as it is such a key component of the class, but also an incredible skill factor compared to any other class in the game. If it weren't for that mechanic allowing for skill to play such a prominent factor in potential, I wouldn't continue to play this game. Even HR (and CW to an extent) is now too simplistic for me to enjoy.
I still like their ideas they have said so far. Add visibility for those attacked by a stealthed person or drain damage the longer one is in/attacks from stealth. These kinds of ideas that reduce stealth utility while keeping the mechanic the same at its core is what I'd much rather like to see. Duration does not need nerfed, and I wish people would quit focusing on that as a key part of the solution. It's only stealths capability that needs nerfed.
-this useless shocking execution buffed by 100-200%
-unnerf impact shot
-fix impossible to catch
-stealth needs to be fixed(not like now TR are visible in stealth)
-and the last thing is to make TR feats(each of them) useful.
Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion)
Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
+1 post. I usually find that the people able to deal with and counter stealth are the people who are performing at high skill levels. With GWF, HR, this is not always true, these classes are so tough and have aoe attacks that are spammable, in a war of attrition they usually always come out on top. Similarly, GF and CW even if they are playing at high skill levels have notable disadvantage vs rogue in terms of their powers/mechanics. I would like to see timing, landing attacks, and tactical movement all be more rewarding across all classes.
I also agree that extreme Ideas that have wildly varying consequences and possibly would be hard to implement are very likely to be ignored. When proposing changes we should look at the big picture and offer simple solutions. Honestly, the solutions are simple, it should be very easy to balance stealth for pvp and make tweaks to TR powers to make them viable for PVE. Past nerfs and changes to all classes have given me very little confidence in the devs ability to do this.
I have said it before and I'll say it again. Stealth for combat is not overpowered nor has it ever been. It is for Node control. Node control is the most important factor in winning or losing a dominion match, and THIS is why TRs are dominating the leaderboards. Stealth as a form of node control is what needs to be addressed and tweaked.
1) Charima: actually gives only 0.1% more combat advantage damage.
2) Scoundrel: all the feats there just dont work. Broken.
3) We get no free armor pen by stats like every other classes.
4) We are too squishy and we need some survivability tools like the new HR ( wild medicine, aspect of the lone wolf ).
5) Our damaging encounter is only lashing blade (with a too high CD, not that high damage and easy to miss) : increase damage, reduce cd and put a flat 5 sec if missed.
6) path of the blade should not be single target.
7) we are too much depending on bonus set based on stealth and bait and switch: increase base stealth time and rework bait and switch. Like this we would be more visible and more flexible in builds.
8) ITC sometimes does not work for the first second
9) a general reworks to feats in order to be more damaging ( gwfs, CW, HR have all well defined flat increases bt feats ).
10) unnerf impact shot
11) increase shocking execution damage.
12) TRs can be hard targetted in stealth with some command line bound on the keyboard or mouse.
13) increase our base HP pool.
14) shadow strike sometime bugs without refilling stealth bar but goes on cooldown.
15) clowd of steel back to 12 charges
Absolutely agree with the above post.
TL : DR, I think one of the biggest problems by far with the game is the huge lack of skills. Limiting rogues especially to 3 encounters is a joke when most TRs require at least 1 defensive encounter slotted just to survive. I believe having less options opposed to more options is strictly bad design.
I think what you and many others are missing, is that you will no longer NEED to rely on at-wills from stealth to be viable. We will have 3 basics viable strategies.
If you spec executioner, you don't need stealth at-wills, because you are bursting opponents down & stealth will be used for repositioning and tactics than the main combat mechanic.
If you are sabatour, you gain large CC abilities and small-moderate DPS boost. Your main survival mechanic is stuns and dazes while DPSing.
If you really, really love perma & want to use at-wills from stealth... guess what... you can still spec sabatour it and play that way. Perma is an already viable build, so it shouldn't get more than a nudge in terms of DPS increase... it mostly suffers from the bugs imo.
i would like to actually be able to use ANY encounter. i laugh at the rogues that use dazing strike in PvP. I laugh and laugh as they teleport into the air, then get stunned, dazed, knocked down, knocked back or entangled before the encounter finishes activating. what i am getting at in a round about way, when i activate something, it would nice to have it activate promptly. while the long and elaborate animations are awesome, it seems that our fastest, almost compare (activation speed wise) to the slowest of other classes
take Deft strike, i have stopped using it, because if my target is walking, it will miss 75% of the time, because the target moved out of the target area, before i got there via teleport. Would the GF / GWF be quite if there charge moves worked like that? hell no, they would probable crash the forum.
that is one of the big things that bothers me about the rogue class.
Actually PotB would at least target 2 opponents, and shouldn't even be implemented in this manner at all -- if we at least loosely respect the D&D 4th lore.
PotB is actually a "movement power" in D&D 4th, and i really should be depicted sort of like BnS or Blitz in that it causes a rapid movement of the TR.. and during the movement any enemy the TR comes across is attacked.
...hence the reason I suggested that PotB changes into a power that first gives you the visual aiming queue(sort of like how an aiming queue is given when you use Seismic Shot, or IBS, or similar 'aimed-activated' powers), and when activated the TR rushes along the path and attacks and dazes(or stuns) anyone caught in the path... and ofcourse, the 'rush' part of the attack would be counted as a dodge frame.
A gap-closer, a CC-protection, and a CC by itself, combined into a single power. This is actually what PATH of the Blade is like in D&D4th, and I'd rather have this one than the cheeseball easy-mode stealth-killer the PotB is right now. Much more utility.
...but that's my personal preference.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Yup.
For some blasted reason almost every encounter the TR has, has some sort of activation delay in the beginning. If they did this on purpose because they might have thought TRs would be too powerful melees... all I could say is, boy did they bark up the wrong tree. How would they excuse doing this to the TRs, when you look at how all the CCs the GWF or GFs deal -- 3 second stuns and prones, way more powerful than any TR CC -- are almost instant activation?
Impact Shot - wild swing of the arm, slow projectile travel, and even a big delay after using the power
Vengeance's Pursuit, Deft Strike - both gap-closers, and yet slow to activate with very unreliable positioning -- when a target is moving, and you teleport, it doesn't take you to where the target is right now. It takes you to where the target was when you pressed the button
Dazing Strike - slow. goddarn slow.
Shocking Execution - another big, slow, lumbering attack
Are we really rogues? Because, we attack slower than a 7 ft. tall giant with a 6 ft. long two-handed weapon that probably weighs more than 5~10kgs, and takes both hands to swing. They deal attacks faster than our 3ft long dagger.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!"
pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all."
looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
yeah this is bug and hopefully will be fixed one day.
I realize this is a game, but a true 6 ft. weapon for combat would generally weigh no where near that amount. A 6 ft. sword for instance would typically be closer to 3 kg. For a 10kg sword you would need a length of about 33 ft.
The typical 2-handed sword (Claymore) was about 4-4.5 feet long and did weigh about 2.5-3 kg. However, an even longer sword (one used by a giant) that was 6-7 feet long would probably weigh closer to 5 kg. Of course, it would not weigh near 10 kg!
Just keeping it real.
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!"
pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all."
looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
I thought the only fix was to make it crit and there was some hemming and hawing around whether or not it should proc weapon enchants. I'd have to dredge up the actual notes though and I don't wanna.
People have been reporting that it doesn't benefit from weapon enchants/asking if it should since forever, with no responses.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Somebody tested and it doesn't benefit from Vorpal either (same crit severity on PotB with and without Vorpal).
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia