test content
Logo
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc
Improving PvP Quality & Matchmaking: The Easy Solution
magiquepurse
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
Hello.
The solution for a balanced, fair and healthy PvP ecosystem is SIMPLE. Very simple.
!!!CLARIFICATION!!! These are mere suggestions - NOT DEMANDS.
Step by Step (I will detail why at the end):
- create brackets based on rating. Each bracket contains, as rewards, better gear, so there is something to work for in PvP
- make specific PvP enchants obtainable SOLELY by PvPing. NO SHORTCUTS. Alternative: take out all enchants, create slotless PvP gear.
- make gear relatively easy to obtain. It shouldn't take months to get what you want
- REMOVE REFINING FROM PvP!!!
- Make PvP SEASONS, up to 3 months or so in length
- Reset Leadeboard(s) and statistics each season
- Introduce new tiers of PvP gear each new season, making last season's gear obsolete. All obtainable SOLELY BY PvPing.
Why? And how is this better than what we have?
Rating-based BRACKETS, with GEAR per BRACKET
This means that you will only PvP against people in same bracket, until you drop or advance to another bracket. In general, people you will meet there will have gear that is just like yours, or SLIGHTLY (with emphasis on SLIGHTLY!) better or worse.
GEAR AVAILABILITY
Gear should be available by PvP "farming" ONLY and should get better as you advance in brackets, giving players something to farm for (it's an MMO...). Gear should not take months to get; because...
GEAR is made OBSOLETE next SEASON
So we have to take pretty short cycles into consideration. This is good - most MMO players always like to get new shiny epics and such.
What about REFINING?
It is a plague and has NO PLACE in PvP. Do enchantments drop in PvP? NO. Then why is refining here?!? PvP gear, all of it, should be obtainable from PvP ALONE. We will remove it.
Alternative:
PvP Enchants. Should drop in PvP, from players, or obtainable with glory. Very - VERY! limited refining. Think about Rank 7s in lowest bracket, and Rank 10s in the uppermost bracket. Obtainable with GLORY - or directly as drops from POWERFUL OPPONENTS KILLED.
Why SEASONS?
Because we need to keep it fresh and give new people a chance to get to the top, based on SKILL, not gear. Yes each season will mean new gear is released making your obsolete - but fear not! The new gear will be obtainable by PvPing - by just playing the game alone. As detailed above, it won't be excessively hard to get.
Why?
Because it is Player vs Player, not Gear/Wallet vs Gear/Wallet. New players should have a chance each few moths to catch up and compete.
ADVANTAGES of above system:
- everything. It is better in any way than what we have now
Disadvantages:
- no more shortcuts. A new era of fairness would be here.
Thank you for reading.
The solution for a balanced, fair and healthy PvP ecosystem is SIMPLE. Very simple.
!!!CLARIFICATION!!! These are mere suggestions - NOT DEMANDS.
Step by Step (I will detail why at the end):
- create brackets based on rating. Each bracket contains, as rewards, better gear, so there is something to work for in PvP
- make specific PvP enchants obtainable SOLELY by PvPing. NO SHORTCUTS. Alternative: take out all enchants, create slotless PvP gear.
- make gear relatively easy to obtain. It shouldn't take months to get what you want
- REMOVE REFINING FROM PvP!!!
- Make PvP SEASONS, up to 3 months or so in length
- Reset Leadeboard(s) and statistics each season
- Introduce new tiers of PvP gear each new season, making last season's gear obsolete. All obtainable SOLELY BY PvPing.
Why? And how is this better than what we have?
Rating-based BRACKETS, with GEAR per BRACKET
This means that you will only PvP against people in same bracket, until you drop or advance to another bracket. In general, people you will meet there will have gear that is just like yours, or SLIGHTLY (with emphasis on SLIGHTLY!) better or worse.
GEAR AVAILABILITY
Gear should be available by PvP "farming" ONLY and should get better as you advance in brackets, giving players something to farm for (it's an MMO...). Gear should not take months to get; because...
GEAR is made OBSOLETE next SEASON
So we have to take pretty short cycles into consideration. This is good - most MMO players always like to get new shiny epics and such.
What about REFINING?
It is a plague and has NO PLACE in PvP. Do enchantments drop in PvP? NO. Then why is refining here?!? PvP gear, all of it, should be obtainable from PvP ALONE. We will remove it.
Alternative:
PvP Enchants. Should drop in PvP, from players, or obtainable with glory. Very - VERY! limited refining. Think about Rank 7s in lowest bracket, and Rank 10s in the uppermost bracket. Obtainable with GLORY - or directly as drops from POWERFUL OPPONENTS KILLED.
Why SEASONS?
Because we need to keep it fresh and give new people a chance to get to the top, based on SKILL, not gear. Yes each season will mean new gear is released making your obsolete - but fear not! The new gear will be obtainable by PvPing - by just playing the game alone. As detailed above, it won't be excessively hard to get.
Why?
Because it is Player vs Player, not Gear/Wallet vs Gear/Wallet. New players should have a chance each few moths to catch up and compete.
ADVANTAGES of above system:
- everything. It is better in any way than what we have now
Disadvantages:
- no more shortcuts. A new era of fairness would be here.
Thank you for reading.
Post edited by magiquepurse on
0
Comments
- create brackets based on rating. Each bracket contains, as rewards, better gear, so there is something to work for in PvP
- make specific PvP enchants obtainable SOLELY by PvPing. NO SHORTCUTS. Alternative: take out all enchants, create slotless PvP gear.
- make gear relatively easy to obtain. It shouldn't take months to get what you want
- REMOVE REFINING FROM PvP!!!
- Make PvP SEASONS, length about 5-6 months.
- Reset Leadeboard(s) and statistics each season
- Introduce new tiers of PvP gear each new season, making last season's gear obsolete. All obtainable SOLELY BY PvPing.
[/QUOTE]
1) Brackets: agreed
2) PvP enchants, that dosent work in PvE. Agreed
3) Grim gear is pretty easy to obtain, while profound takes a while. And the differences are minimal. I really think we should have more gear options, like the grim gear now and better gear being availible as you go up in brackets. But i dont think top gear should be easy availible. But it should only be obtained through pvp ofc
4) I agree with seasons, but 5-6 months is abit much since HUGE changes happen so often. i would rather set it to 2-3 months.
5) new gear each season. agreed
Let me add some detail.
Brackets:
- pug PvP; basic Glory gear to get you started; already ranked players unable to participate - this is an unranked, beginner-friendly zone.
Bracket 1: 1500 to 1750 Ranking. Tier 1 Gear made available.
Bracket 2: 1750 to 2000 Ranking. Tier 2 Gear made available.
Bracket 3: 2000 and above ranking. Tier 3 Gear made available.
Gear:
- Obtainable through a combination of PvP dailies (we need more of these), PvP objectives and PvP games themselves (i.e. Glory).
- one should NOT be forced to PvE to get PvP gear.
- PvP gear should be various enough to satisfy and facilitate multiple playstyles
Each Tier of PvP gear should gradually take a bit longer to get.
I am thinking something like T1, 1 week, T2 2 weeks, T3 3 weeks at most - if we consider a short Season of about 2 months. The longer the Season, the longer the gear obtaining period should be.
The real objective that players should be fighting for should be the LEADERBOARD (which ofc would be functional and fixed...). Not gear. Gear, nothing but a way to keep people interested and reward them, since this is an MMO.
We need to keep in mind that new gear comes with each Season. So nobody needs to get too attached
As a result, people started complaining about queue times. So they changed it back. Basically folks... If they improve the match making system, the LONGER you wait in queue for PvP.
One more PvP Queue Option! this would really help.
Just this
I was there and played those days, and was quite lame to wait 30 mins. It was broken.
What is needed, is to ATTRACT new blood in PvP. At the moment, you cannot really do that because:
- PvP is imbalanced
- some classes are exceedingly OP/broken
- catching up with the top requires a significant time investment (1 year of farming, playing AH etc.), or...
- a significant amount of money. Think a few thousand USDs to get BiS, maybe?
- PvP has broken items that destroy the fun for new players that don't understand and cannot equip them - GLYPHS
So how do you attract new people?
By applying my suggestions, and making PvP as fair and balanced as it's possible in an MMO.
By making it easi(er) on new players to get same gear as veterans - so the SKILL decides who wins.
Also.
Think about the changes I mentioned. They would improve all PvP significantly. But at first, queue times will be longer.
Isn't this a compromise that is worth taking?
GS bracketing is not working for good PvP.
Serious changes are necessary - if and only if we want to see serious PvP here, the type other MMOs have.
(2) An absolute freedom of gear like current NW, brings in high competition and strong motives for people to play and fight, as well as obtain good gear. Also, many different levels of people may meet each other and compete. However, in turn, it destabilizes the game by extreme gear difference levels.
(3) brackets produce better match results toward egality, but at the expense of player numbers per bracket, which in turn causes the problem of "there re no PvP matches now..!!", which is much more serious than the initial problem.
...............
So what's the best alternative?
A way better solution is dynamic gear performance equalization.
It is not the absolute gear equalization like in Guild Wars. Rather, it is a method where a standard gear performance rating is set, hence any piece of gear that is over the rating (=high end gear) is reduced in peformance output, whereas any piece of gear that is over the rating is increased in performance output. Again, this equalization is not absolute, and therefore under this system the relative performance difference diminishes to tolerable levels, but never makes gear truly equal. There are always performance differences. It's just that it is 'tweaked' to within acceptable levels.
It's IMO the best compromise currently in existence. SWTOR (dunno if they've changed it any other way) had the Bolster system working this way. Players in the forums still complained for a variety of reasons, but up to date its the best balancing I've ever experienced.
BIS level players are powerful. In a 1v1 they'll still beat the low-grade geared people -- but not as easily. Also,in turn, even if someone in BIS gear, and still much more stronger than a low-grade geared player, it is not powerful enough to keep you invincible against 2~3 people attacking. For the people with low performance gear, they will be boosted a lot in performance, at least upto acceptable levels. So you actually have a chance to beat a BIS level player -- IF, and that's a big IF -- he is truly much more skilled.
Relative differences exist. There is still reason to have best gear. Having best gear does allow you perform the best.Just not at ungodly levels as it once used to be. Vice versa for low-grade geared people.
[Example]
Many people remember being despised just because you've recently reached lv60. You did your effort and shopped in AH, but still you're only 11k. This is your 2nd alt, and you know how the game works, but still you can't do a thing against someone who is 17k in GS.
With dynamic adjustment, a level 60 match up can use (just for example) maybe 15k as a standard. Someone who is 11k, will be boosted upto maybe around 13k level performance, while the other at 17k, will be dropped down to around 16k levels.
Yes, the (now) 16k is still stronger, but for the formerly 11k guy, it's way better to play as a 13k vs 16k, than having to go 11k vs 17k.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Gear/bracket works IMO, I saw the system and been through it, it is functional. You always have something to play&grind for, and some improvements and tweaks to make.
If your rating however is not improving even as you farmed all the BiS tear in that bracket, then you will remain there.
This way, you let your "champion" players have best goodies, but they will never-ever meet the beginners in lower brackets.
So no more pug stomping - at all, while everybody is happy.
The numbers of PvP players are limited. We tend to think we can always get a match anytime soon, but that's not true. For people playing in other time-zones than US or Europe, for example people playing in Asia, or maybe Australia, the numbers of players online are much smaller. Yet, currently people can still get quick matches there. Increase the brackets, and good luck finding matches when there are like 9 people online total in your bracket.
Besides, this is even worse for the premade thugs.
Those level of players are rare. Very few. Also, even amongst themselves the brackets may differ. If the bracket is lenient as to pit those guys against normal PuGs, then the bracket don't mean nuthin', so it needs to be strict.
So then, if the bracket is strict, let's say there's this guy in Leaderboard, page 1, 4000 kills / 250 deaths, 620 wins / 30 losses. Who is this guy gonna play with and how long will he wait to get a match? Does he have to wait until people with similarly impressive ratings log on? Or will he be sent to fight against others with much lower rating? Woops, the moment he goes into lower brackets, say good bye to the "bracket system" and what it was meant to do.
Even if he gets enough people, how many? 10 people? Same 10 people playing PvP matches over and over and over and over again?
Brackets work well when there are as many people online at all timezones of the Earth. How many people are online in Neverwinter, and how much of them actually want to play PvP?
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
This is supposed to be a
Massively Multiplayer Online RPG.
If there are 10 elite PvPers in it, we have a SERRRRRRRRIOUS issue.
And it needs rectifying - by bringing in NEW BLOOD.
The overall idea is that new new people find nothing of interest beyond the gear in PvP, such as the raven artifact, because...
... bad matchmaking and PUGSTOMPS.
Make it balanced and fair, and more and more people will PvP .
Because it's the human and moral thing to do, to accommodate a sport-like confrontation between players.
and of course make that you are not able to change gear once inside the arena.
a quick example of imbalance, first pvp with my high geared cw, 0 ELO, i found myself against a page 2 hr...this makes no sense
EDIT: of course i saw that the OP already gave this suggestion (more or less), i just went more in depth with it
It's a Massive Multiplayer Online but it's not a Massive Multiplayer Online Player versus Player.
The game has PvP and the devs try to make it as fun as possible but do remember there are a lot of players who not only are not here for the PvP but outright refuse to do it.
There's no magic wand to get more people playing the game. The cold hard truth as a D&D branded product the main audience drawn to play it are not going to be heavily interested in PvP. The main audience of the game is more likely to vow never to participate in PvP than to want any of the developers time spent on PvP.
That said, mod 3 did a surprisingly good job at getting some of my more timid guildies to dip a toe into PvP, and actually start having fun. It's a shame that the disastrous situation with mod 4 CW and GF changes and glyphs has made it feel so bewildering and hostile for them again. I fear that it has undone a lot of good work.
Yes, this is anecdotal, but so is almost everything on these forums, even if folks don't always admit it
To be fair i started out as a PvE player and ended up as a pure PvP player. As soon as those players who are not here to PvP finish up all the content they will realize that there is not much left to do but quit or play pvp, and if pvp was more loved they would most likely stay. Like many people in this game have. PvE had very little to offer, while PvP had a lot of variation. Because of the awesome combat system, this game has a HUUUUUUGE pvp potential. And their playerbase would increase ALOT if only the gave domination some love. Im sure its in all interests.
Right now matchmaking is not working, ofc, because of the low ingame population. And its steadily decreasing because the one thing that was keeping players in the game, is getting ignored and broken with things such as glyphs, KV, GFs etc.
So i really think that OP is just trying to help. Some of the things he suggested will not work instantly because of the current population, but im sure it will increase a lot if they do implement these features and it will attract alot of PvPers from other games since they know about the combat system, but are playing other games because of content. If PvP got more love, and im 100% sure about this, it will bring in more money to the company seeing as PvPers are the ones who buy most ZEN anyway.
Yes I know PvP is fun and people who didn't think they would PvP do end up PvP'ing here...
My comment is purely to tell the reality of the situation: don't look at this game as a PvP game. Don't expect large amounts of hardcore PvP with thousands of players trying to get into PvP matches every minute like some other MOBA's.
It's fun. It's a part of it. It's here to stay and will continue to receive updates and improvements...
But do understand that PvP is the minority of the player base and always will be. This is a D&D product, the main draw is PvE no matter how enjoyable PvP is.
There is no competition in PvE.. Players farmed for months for their equip and enchats, a new player can't and shouldnt compete with them.
I'm not saying that I don't approve, I say that is not feasible.. Not now, not in this game..
- Rating-based BRACKETS, with GEAR per BRACKET - Agree!
- Make PvP SEASONS, length about 5-6 months - Agree!!
- Reset Leadeboard(s) and statistics each season - Agree!!!
| Cìrdan - GF | Cìrdan The Lightbringer - OP |
< Guild: Pugno Fiammante >
You approve, yet you don't want it here.
Yet, for a healthy PvP, where ther is a constant flux of new players in it, you NEED, and HAVE TO let them catch up to you in gear rather easily.
You cannot tell some random dude that comes from another MMO to give Neverwinter a try:
"I have Rank 10s and Legendaries and 20K GS. I have farmed Castle Never for about 6 months. You can't do it anymore though because prices sucks now and, well, a TR cannot run to the last boss for 15 minute runs.
I have played AH for another 6 months but you cannot do it unless you already have like 10 millions.
So there is nothing for you do to to ever catch up for me, but spend real money"
New player:
"How much?"
You:
"Well, about a few thousands USD".
New Player:
"oops thanks for telling me, now I am back to my other game".
We NEED to let new players get the same gear level we do.
Even better, we need the first pvP season release, and new gear that makes all else obsolete, so we all start anew.
Just as a clarification, I have almost BiS gear myself. I don't have any issues with everybody having the same as I do for free, for the sake of more fair competition.
Yes, there is a bit of fine tuning to be done to the system.
I have tried to keep things as short and concise as possible since I know the attention span of forum readers is not usually very long.
Hence the structured post and nice colors lol...
Not good.
Enchantments allow customization of stats. They are needed. The gear is not well enough thought out stats-wise to make a min-maxer happy.
Enchantments are needed. Just make them drop in PvP, and drop enough of them to be plentiful for refining and experimenting.
Also this is an MMO. You have to have something to work for.
I don't agree with extremely long term refine goals such as rank 10s. Make it Rank 7 max. in PvP. We don't need either that much DPS or that much HP, especially if everybody is cut down to size.
Also.
Good Leaderboard
Good Matchmaking, with Brackets (no pugstomps, AT ALL)
Good Rewards
Seasons/Ladder Reset
Are all needed as well. They are the only way to make PvP desirable by real PvPers. As it is now, nobody coming from LoL or DOTA or WoW would like what they find here and would feel terribly disappointed.
I do like your proposed solution. Disagree with point one and the conclusion of point two though. Absolute equalization would be the ideal method if we are serious about skill-based pvp. It would result in pvp becoming a true test of skill, not a race on who can obtain the best gear the fastest. This would, in turn, result in more people joining pvp, as the current entrance curve turns the casuals away unless they have a high tolerance for torture. However, it is highly unrealistic, given Cryptic's business model, so we can discard such a thing ever happening.
Rest of the post is right on and would love to see a similar method implemented. The people asking for brackets probably never played GW1, where the similar bracket system would sometimes result in hour long waits, and forced top guilds to make alt guilds in order to even get into matches.
I play exclusively Neverwinter for over a year now. I don't think I can be "accused" of being some player from whatever other game trying to make things unpleasant for everyone else. I am merely trying to suggest things I know for sure that they work - as I seen them in action. I am only bothering to write such a long post and put color into it cause I want Neverwinter to be better, PvE and PvP wise, even though the prospects are really, really bleak.
If you read through my posts, you would know I am trying to suggest things that would close the power gap and make te game a fair ground for everybody. I have no idea how such a thing would be bad. Fairness should be considered above all else.
In short:
Help newbies get good gear faster. MUUUUUCH FASTER. They need to be able to compete with the top players (gear-wise, skill wise... remains to be seen) in a few months at most - 2, 3.
We need new blood influx in both PvP and PvE. Without it, the top end withers and dies.
Yes, you'd tend to think that. I used to as well.
I used to think people wanted things fair. I used to think the more fair and absolutely just system the developers gave us, we would be happy. During the early days of PC gaming, when the concept of "online competitive gaming" was just being invented, there were a lot of different methods that were experimented on how to make online gaming work. It was like the early days of evolution where nature would try a zillion different ways of evolving into, until it finally simmered down and the results started to come out on which direction of evolution would produce the 'fittest'.
In the very early days of MMOGs I thought people would be happy when everything was perfectly fair. Except the reality is fairly interesting. People actually don't like it fair.
Rather, people have double standards. They want the game to be fair when they're the underdog. People don't want it to be fair and want their superiority of gear/item/skill to matter when they've got the upperhand.
That's about the time I realized that people themsevles aren't bron equally. Some people just can't get better in PvP at all. Others adapt to every learning curve as if they were born combat-ready. In the between are the majority of players where natural born talent and practice/experience are mixed in 50:50 and bring out a variety of results as to who gets better in PvP by how much,
In this sense, offering a "skill-basded only" PvP environment without any other ways to effect it, is actually not much "fair" at all.
The trick is to try and diversify the methods which effect PvP results, without any one of them becoming too prevalent. Skill, of course, is first and foremost to be considered and always will effect PvP the largest, but items, gear, outside factors etc etc.. all have a place in PvP.
For one thing, items and gears are ways to influence the character's base stats and performance. Compared to real life sports, the effort one takes to prepare oneself as much as possible for PvP, is exactly the equivalent of training diligently to enhance the physical and mental of the athlete oneself.
No two fighters are "equal" in everything when they step into the ring. The only thing equal is the weight division, which roughly lays out the minimum ground of fairness in the assumption that same weight equals roughly similar muscle mass and physical build, and therefore roughly similar output of power, stamina, etc etc..
Same with PvP, same with gear.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
2 million accounts of which over half are probably free 2 play players using a 2nd (or 3rd, or 4th etc) account to bypass the 2 character cap - wether for leadership or actual play xD
Some people really are that anal about spending 5$ on the game lol, never mind that they play it basically 24/7 and the convenience alone is worth it.
Mara Angelbane - 22k Thaum CW, Vaya Con Dios 15.2k Dragon CW.
Mara Shadowskiss - 21.5k Destroyer GWF, Mara - 17.2k Sentinel GWF
Mara Duskwalker - 15.4k Healing DC
Mara Hawkeye -14.6k HR
Mara Spiritforge - 16.9k Tanky GF
Bad Religion - 14.7k Pew Pew DC
Mara Shadowstouch,Maara - TR's