Life Steal, How much?

alkemist80 · August 2014

How much life steal should a Temptation warlock have?

I've tried searching but couldn't find a good definitive answer on diminishing returns and soft cap in general. Also is this across the board for all classes or does it vary by class?

asmodeus451 · August 2014

The following link is for a chart showing the diminishing returns on all stats as well as the formulas behind it

https://www.desmos.com/calculator/3dqpvhuavj

as you can see in the graph, LS diminishes in returns slowly, but also rises in gains slowly, so it can be hard to find a definite cutoff point where more LS points would be effectively wasted (a "soft cap")

the 2 general rules of thumb as i understand them are 1) get your other stats where you want them first, then see how much LS you can squeeze in OR 2) get yourself to 10%, then stop (going by the graph this is ~1400 points of LS)

hope that info helps

alkemist80 · August 2014

From my understanding it looks to be about 3500-4000 where it gets hit by diminishing returns. Is that correct?

ashnvf · August 2014

No, it's around 2000-2500 where it drops off. Between 2000 and 4000 you only gain 5%.

alkemist80 · August 2014

ashnvf wrote: »

No, it's around 2000-2500 where it drops off. Between 2000 and 4000 you only gain 5%.

Thank you. Would it be worthwhile for a Temptation to stack more than 2500 or start working on other stats?

demonkyuubi · August 2014

i'm considering 3100 for 15% life-steal +5% feat to reach 20% life-steal. combined with endless consumption and incoming heal bonus, this could be extremely tanky.

championshewolf · August 2014

Common misconception is that there is a magic number where diminishing returns occurs at, and that simply isn't true. Diminishing returns hits as soon as you put a stat boost on. However, the severity of said returns is what you are after. It just all depends on what you are comfortable with really. Me personally I am hovering around 2800, and that seems to be a nice number especially when using Warlock's Bargain I almost always get the life I sac back just on the hit alone.

If I were to suggest something, if you are going for a DPS healing lock, aim for the Thayan gear and Dread Legion. Both of those have healthy amounts of power critical and life steal.

voltomey · August 2014

championshewolf wrote: »

Common misconception is that there is a magic number where diminishing returns occurs at, and that simply isn't true. Diminishing returns hits as soon as you put a stat boost on. However, the severity of said returns is what you are after. It just all depends on what you are comfortable with really. Me personally I am hovering around 2800, and that seems to be a nice number especially when using Warlock's Bargain I almost always get the life I sac back just on the hit alone.

If I were to suggest something, if you are going for a DPS healing lock, aim for the Thayan gear and Dread Legion. Both of those have healthy amounts of power critical and life steal.

that's the and slaughterers pvp set

mittensofdoom · August 2014

I easily hit 3.5k with no issue on diminishing returns.

kattefjaes · August 2014

For a healy warlock, stupid values around 3k are still pretty reasonable as it's a core stat. For a Fury, you probably shouldn't go much beyond 1300 or so.

query523 · August 2014

voltomey wrote: »

that's the and slaughterers pvp set

We did the same math sir.

imit8r · August 2014

For everybody saying that 3000+ Life-steal is a good idea, I will have to say that I completely disagree 100%. And here is why:

At 1500 LS you will get completely adequate LS% of about 12% or so (+Add in some for class feats etc) and you have a solid number that is all you need to be a VERY good healer. There is significant diminishing returns over 1500, and yes I have tested it extensively. You are IMHO much much better off putting your stats in other areas to hit ALL your softcaps before you WAY overstack a stat like lifesteal. In fact you are better off just stacking power once you hit your softcaps. Keep in mind this is all based on personal experience, and my Temptation SW, both on live and preview.

championshewolf · August 2014

And with our gear that adds plenty, plus feats, your concerns are noted but I am still topping the damage charts, with my inefficient amount of life steal.

alkemist80 · August 2014

championshewolf wrote: »

And with our gear that adds plenty, plus feats, your concerns are noted but I am still topping the damage charts, with my inefficient amount of life steal.

Which armor set are you running with? I decided to stick with wicked mage temptation set for T1 but not sure what to with the T2.

championshewolf · August 2014

alkemist80 wrote: »

Which armor set are you running with? I decided to stick with wicked mage temptation set for T1 but not sure what to with the T2.

Using Thayan gear, but looking to probably go with Sharandar after looking at the tier 2 stats or possibly going with the Draconic gear if groups start forming for those encounters later. Otherwise probably corrupted black ice in the future.

imit8r · August 2014

championshewolf wrote: »

And with our gear that adds plenty, plus feats, your concerns are noted but I am still topping the damage charts, with my inefficient amount of life steal.

I am not sure who you are responding to here, Championshewolf, but your lifesteal has 0 impact on DPS, other than negative, since you could be using those stat points for other stats that will have a more significant impact on more DPS. I am not trying to say that you must build your SW this way or that, just that from my experience there are pretty significant diminishing returns above a point.

imit8r · August 2014

alkemist80 wrote: »

Which armor set are you running with? I decided to stick with wicked mage temptation set for T1 but not sure what to with the T2.

I am running a temptation SW, and find that the 4 set bonus on the Accursed Diabolist armor cannot be beat, no contest. It really doesn't sound like much but once you start stacking ticks of encounters onto a mob, I have seen 20 stacks of hellfire burning non stop and it makes for some really impressive numbers. Keep in mind that this set has been nerfed since preview when I did the parse on it, but this set bonus more than doubled my DPS.

demonkyuubi · August 2014

imit8r wrote: »

For everybody saying that 3000+ Life-steal is a good idea, I will have to say that I completely disagree 100%. And here is why:

At 1500 LS you will get completely adequate LS% of about 12% or so (+Add in some for class feats etc) and you have a solid number that is all you need to be a VERY good healer. There is significant diminishing returns over 1500, and yes I have tested it extensively. You are IMHO much much better off putting your stats in other areas to hit ALL your softcaps before you WAY overstack a stat like lifesteal. In fact you are better off just stacking power once you hit your softcaps. Keep in mind this is all based on personal experience, and my Temptation SW, both on live and preview.

from what i have noticed, i tend to have every single mob and even the boss on my tail if there is no guardian in the team simply due to healing everyone. the extra % of life-steal helps to actually keep me alive if there is no secondary healer in the group.

charononus · August 2014

You'll get to 1900+ with Accursed and cleaving rings which got me 12.5% lifesteal. That means as temptation you have 25% lifesteal, Which is a ton. Combine that with the much higher dps currently from the Accursed set and I can't for the life of me see a reason to use another set unless maybe you get a full Draconic and stack Chromatic overloads but I would have to look closely at parses for that. Remember losing too much dps as a temptation is going to lose you healing as well.

imit8r · August 2014

charononus wrote: »

You'll get to 1900+ with Accursed and cleaving rings which got me 12.5% lifesteal. That means as temptation you have 25% lifesteal, Which is a ton. Combine that with the much higher dps currently from the Accursed set and I can't for the life of me see a reason to use another set unless maybe you get a full Draconic and stack Chromatic overloads but I would have to look closely at parses for that. Remember losing too much dps as a temptation is going to lose you healing as well.

Where do you get 25% lifesteal from? Sure I suppose your team gets that, but you don't, as far as I know.

charononus · August 2014

imit8r wrote: »

Where do you get 25% lifesteal from? Sure I suppose your team gets that, but you don't, as far as I know.

I could swear I saw that it effects the SW to. I may be wrong but it really doesn't matter much as even 12.5% is enough to rapidly fill you back to full health, I consider the 25% the important part for temptation SW's as that's where their utility that they gave up some dps is coming from.

edit*
I'm almost positive about the SW getting the 25% now that I think more, I facetanked the bear rider boss in a HE in IWD last night with no problems and I couldn't have done that as fury with only 12.5% so I feel very strongly based on this that you definitely do get the 25% as a SW.

savrai · August 2014

alkemist80 wrote: »

How much life steal should a Temptation warlock have?

All of it.

Actually, I'd worry about your other stats first, then stack LS. Get your defense and deflect above 1000, Crit above 2400 and power over 3000, then worry about Lifesteal. You shouldn't have to use too many, if any, dark enchants to get there. Take the feat that raises LS (so you can use a radiant instead of a dark in a slot) and in the tree that raises it on a Crit.

Eventually, you'll need to choose an armor set that has LS as a base stat and you're set. Really, Crit and high HP (along with power, of course) are the most important for LS heals. You're going to have to be where the fighting is to heal everyone, so don't be afraid to stack Con like crazy. Also helps for the temp HP feat. And since LS is based on a percentage, the higher the damage, the higher the heal. Get Crit above 35% as a priority.

Just for reference, my Templock has about 5200 power, 3400 Crit, 2400 LS, 1500 defense and deflect and ~28500 HP using the Accursed Diabolist set and with a kitty companion.

charononus · August 2014

savrai wrote: »

All of it.

Actually, I'd worry about your other stats first, then stack LS. Get your defense and deflect above 1000, Crit above 2400 and power over 3000, then worry about Lifesteal. You shouldn't have to use too many, if any, dark enchants to get there. Take the feat that raises LS (so you can use a radiant instead of a dark in a slot) and in the tree that raises it on a Crit.

Eventually, you'll need to choose an armor set that has LS as a base stat and you're set. Really, Crit and high HP (along with power, of course) are the most important for LS heals. You're going to have to be where the fighting is to heal everyone, so don't be afraid to stack Con like crazy. Also helps for the temp HP feat. And since LS is based on a percentage, the higher the damage, the higher the heal. Get Crit above 35% as a priority.

Just for reference, my Templock has about 5200 power, 3400 Crit, 2400 LS, 1500 defense and deflect and ~28500 HP using the Accursed Diabolist set and with a kitty companion.

You shouldn't be using any darks for lifesteal on a temptation lock. You have a feat that gives a % of your max hp as temp hp every time you crit. Not maxing your hp with radiants in every defensive slot is a no no.

alkemist80 · September 2014

For some reason, I have found that Compounded Soul is not proccing much for me at all, but I'm still only at 29% crit. I seem to have moved away from DoT attacks (harrowstorm or blades) to bursty in fiery bolt so that could be a factor as well. I still use dreadtheft though. The dots/hots just don't seem to provide enough self healing for me when I do grab aggro, if I can throw a bolt on a cursed target in a group, then it pretty much ensures I can live for a few more seconds or so..

The accursed set looked too good to pass up and figured it would work good for temptation. Just wasn't quite sure but I'll aim for that set then. I've slow down a bit on my warlock since I'm waiting to get an augment pet.

query523 · September 2014

charononus wrote: »

You shouldn't be using any darks for lifesteal on a temptation lock. You have a feat that gives a % of your max hp as temp hp every time you crit. Not maxing your hp with radiants in every defensive slot is a no no.

Really how much is enough? My last run was a TOS and in T1s I ended up healing over 3Mil HP. I think we are going to find with Tempts that you hit a point where you have more than sufficient heals for the entire party And rather than pushing for more boosting other abilities will be optimal.
@alk Compounded procs almost constantly for me. Maybe it is a build difference?

In general I noticed that Tempt capsttone also heals the hell out of companions. I can see a possibility of non-augments becoming viable under these conditions.

pricetagcloud · September 2014

Temptation Warlock here. I've went through the bridge skirmish a couple of times with 8800 GS and was the top healer with 2mil health healed every time (one of the times it was 2dc's and 2tr's and i output most dmg and health! dafuq is wrong with those guys?!). What people are forgetting is the capstone feat gives 200% of your lifesteal in health to allies. I've purposely set my ls to 2600ish and it literally gives 5200ish in ls converted into health to allies. Regardless of the diminishing returns of ls, if you give a part that much ls it's and include the ls they can output themselves, your party will not die. My main is a GWF, but as a healer lock with only blue gear (save for a random purple), I can carry a group through regular dungeons (no boons/time to do epics) and impress 14k gs folks in the one epic (PK) i've done. Life steal does make a difference for a tempt warlock for the capstone alone. I've healed my party from half health to full with 1 round of curse, wb and bva on a boss. 1 fp will do almost as much healing. before you get the capstone feat, it's not the greatest tree to roam with like dps or soul puppet tree. My crit is also awful, and I haven't even gotten a 2nd boon yet, so we'll see how it is once I get my crit up!

championshewolf · September 2014

I said it before and I will say it again; go with what you feel comfortable with. If you don't feel comfortable with the people constantly nay saying on higher than X value, then don't listen to them. Just go with how much you think works for you. The game is meant to be enjoyed your way.

Anyways, working on a temptation warlock guide, soonish.

candinho2 · September 2014

championshewolf wrote: »

Using Thayan gear, but looking to probably go with Sharandar after looking at the tier 2 stats or possibly going with the Draconic gear if groups start forming for those encounters later. Otherwise probably corrupted black ice in the future.

that's why u've inefficient ls, get accursed diabolist set, see how it works

kattefjaes · September 2014

query523 wrote: »

Really how much is enough? My last run was a TOS and in T1s I ended up healing over 3Mil HP. I think we are going to find with Tempts that you hit a point where you have more than sufficient heals for the entire party And rather than pushing for more boosting other abilities will be optimal.

I suspect it will be a lot lower than people expect- as most DPS builds with a ton of LS and regen these days, as a lot of parties are happier without a healer or tank now. That said, if you are getting a ton of LS from HP as a feat, and you're naturally wanting to stack HP, it sounds fairly easy to build without pain, so finding out is no real hardship.

championshewolf · September 2014

candinho2 wrote: »

that's why u've inefficient ls, get accursed diabolist set, see how it works

I've looked at accursed diabolist. No. It's not the BiS everyone claims since I am temptation.

charononus · September 2014

championshewolf wrote: »

I've looked at accursed diabolist. No. It's not the BiS everyone claims since I am temptation.

You need damage to do lifesteal, Hellfire can be 20+% of your dps over the course of a dungeon. That's why it's BiS for all SW's.

Life Steal, How much?

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