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How to deal with MOD 4 HRs
berzergera
Member Posts: 176 Arc User
This is more of a question and a discussion then a statement, because HRs are really tanky in this Mod, especially with the new life steal feats.
The way i have found what is best, if you focus him 2/3 people, you must stun lock him and CC him until his HP drops completely. He MUST be CC locked completely unless he will do some damage on one of you, and heal up to full in no time. As soon as he drops a thorn ward or puts a dot on one of you, he goes up to full HP again because of the insane healing they have. Most of them also uses lifedrinker which helps them alot. In 1v1s situations i have no chance because i dont have enough stuns to keep them CC locked and eventually they will heal up to full and their damage over time will kill me at the speed of light.
In premades the best way to burst an HR down is to send 2 CWs on him (unless they have a GF in the party, then he wont go down no matter what, so try to keep them separated).
In 1v1s i have no clue. Their tankieness and healing is too much for any of my classes. At least the ones who know what they are doing with the feats and build.
What are your ways to deal with the "new" HR?
Please keep the discussion constructive
The way i have found what is best, if you focus him 2/3 people, you must stun lock him and CC him until his HP drops completely. He MUST be CC locked completely unless he will do some damage on one of you, and heal up to full in no time. As soon as he drops a thorn ward or puts a dot on one of you, he goes up to full HP again because of the insane healing they have. Most of them also uses lifedrinker which helps them alot. In 1v1s situations i have no chance because i dont have enough stuns to keep them CC locked and eventually they will heal up to full and their damage over time will kill me at the speed of light.
In premades the best way to burst an HR down is to send 2 CWs on him (unless they have a GF in the party, then he wont go down no matter what, so try to keep them separated).
In 1v1s i have no clue. Their tankieness and healing is too much for any of my classes. At least the ones who know what they are doing with the feats and build.
What are your ways to deal with the "new" HR?
Please keep the discussion constructive
Post edited by berzergera on
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Not sure about at the very highest levels, but right now below that HRs aren't a major worry compared to CWs.
PM any HR from any top PvP guild. If any CW can beat that HR 1v1 i would really like to see that on video.
I feel like a top CW would beat a top HR because every strong point of the CW is the weak point of the hr (CCs and Burst) but hey I would wanna watch that too
Well CCs yes, but CC lock no, as soon as the HR is out of CC, he is on full HP and the HR dots are "slowly" killing the CW.
ie. Don't talk nonsense, it's too early for this kind of nerf campaign. Don't you guys have holidays or anything..?
It's not a nerf thread. Im asking the community from the top tier of PvP, on how they kill an HR which are equal to their skill and gear
No... That's just simply not true, CWs can kill you in what 5 seconds? Not enough to reach even 3WM stacks so how could they be at full health.. and It's possible to keep the HR locked in a CC by timing your control abilities (Like not spamming chill strike directly after entangling giving you more time to keep him locked)
Pathfinder will put a dot on you and will probably have high regen. Was more required in mod 3 and I belive is still major for Pathfinders.
Storm will probably focus on LS.
Meens - high regen takes more time to heal. LS requires damage to be done.
One way or another - week point is CC and Burst damage. You let HR heal - he will kill you.
Another things is that HR can still be Archers. As I was for a week or so in mod 4. mostly they will kill you from far.
CW? CC!
GF? Shield and CC. Don't let put dot on you. Move your fat ***.
GWF? use more that 3 buttons. Sorry guys you were 2 buttons in mod 3. Now you will need to learn how to play. But idea is same CC and Burst. Note: one GWf - 12k GS in 1 vs 1 almost got me - was 10%. he just failed to proceed and started to do usual GWF stuff routine. This is first this that HR learns to avoid from mod 3.
TR? with fox shift nerf - do damage! We can not get you unless we see you.
DC? don't be alone.
HR? lets have some fun ))
SW? no clue what you can yet.
Side note to all. All other classes have CC brakers -HR don't. We only have heal cause of bad design on class as way to survive.
If you are dotted - use Artifacts, potions,powers that remove dot.
Im not happy with new HR changes same as new CWs. I do what to have challenging game with team work and skill required to play. Both pvp and pve.
A very good gf can easily 1 rotation to death any hr under 40k hp
That is not true.
HRs have the means to beat CWs, and depending on skill and some luck/good timing it might not be that hard either. Especially on the node, a HR has the advantage.
Pretty much the only time a HR is in real danger is when the CW uses Orb of Imposition an has a daily ready. If you fail to burst good HRs down REAL FAST, in 10 second he will heal back to almost full and kill you with ease.
I am a 16,5 k combat pvp hr and here are some things i experience:
Vs tr: fought some Good ones, it they start throwing knives at you, fine... Will build wild medicine and eventually heal you. If they stop shooting and swap skills for burst, there will be trouble. If they GO itc df, i rapid strike them and try to land a fox shift once itc is finished. Piercing blade shines here.
Vs cw: bad match, we have no usefull cc, out of disrupting shot, and their rotation deals easily 25-30 k damage. I try to land a rotation, run and hide, ranger will heal faster and land a second rotation (paper cw will be dead). Perma freeze is almost unkillable, but they are rare, since AS is that Good.
Vs gf: 50/50: bad ones will GO down easy, will spam skills as you spam dodges. Good ones will move a lot and aim skills carefuly. If they mark it gets double dangerous. Gfs, use mark, tab does not disapears when hit, free buff.
Vs dc: Dc starts pug dead. Don't face hr alone, and kite when focused.
Vs gwf: they got more squishy. Watch out for the standard rotation, it is predictable and bad gwf will miss constantly. Good gwf with mark will deal 30k with ibs, witch is a lot, even when deflected. Chasing them is pointless, their CDs will be up when they engage you. If they try and facetank you, they will suffer as much as you do.
Vs: hr: some hrs think it is still mod 3 and try a facetank approach, they will die. Wild medicine stacks are too slow for burst damage. So i kite until my cds are up. And dodge new fox shift (it misses If you are in hrs back).
Vs sw: high damage dots. Didn't see many of them.
My skills are, marauder, fox, roa (due to the amazing sinergy with flurry, really hard to land though... ). Rapid and aimed strike. My strategy is gap close, burst, dot and kite.
Hope it helps dealing with us hrs, cheers.
As for the current top HRs, there is 0% chance for a CW to beat an HR. Not 3%, not 2%, not 1%. It's 0%.
And by TOP I don't even mean the gear. It's just the setup. Rank 7s are more than enough to beat any best-in-slot CW. You just need the right build + setup and the CW won't cast a single power on you (and if he does, you will heal up to full in less than 3 sec). CW drops in less than 5 seconds against HR.
Again, this only goes for the latest PvP build (Life Steal, Combat). To beat the TOP CWs (those who 100% know what they are doing), the HRs need to be somewhat skilled:
- Know how and when to dodge Icy Rays (Marauder's).
- Know how to Boar Charge out of CC.
- Know how and when to use Fox (and when NOT to use it).
- Know how to not waste your melee attacks.
Result:
The CW will be perma-cc'd, will never be able to cast a single encounter, since for every encounter the CW has, there is a counter CC attack from the HR that has a lower casting time. Plus, the burst is enough to drop the CW in one melee rotation.
I think those are the kind of HRs the OP is talking about. There aren't many yet, because people prefer QQing on forums over testing and adjusting builds. But once the build will get known a little better, these forums will be flooded with nerf threads.
My money would be on the top CW
Yeah as a TR I throw knives especially when they do that green shift away tactic.
Rooted? With those vines tying me to the ground? I just run forwards really slow with a good Path of the Blade going.
Now combine a TR with HR back up that's awesome ESPECIALLY if you have a Fighter (any kind)watching the backs of both as anytime somebody comes in to hit either of them the Fighter can smash face fast on the person since you know... they aren't targeting the Fighter.
Any class can defeat any other class with good tactics really in the end. You just have to think out your strategies.
"Why is it dragons only use ketchup? I'd like a little wasabi please. Us silvers like a variety of condiments."
"Don't call them foolish mortals. One, they don't learn from it. Two, It just ticks them off." - An Ancient Red Dragon
You would lose your money. Trust me, I play PvP CW since beta, and I spent days trying to figure out a counter build to the new HRs on CW. There is none.
Too much damage coupled with too much healing coupled with too much CC.
It's like a nightmare altogether. If you manage to get the HR from behind without him knowing, he will be full in no time. If he sees you too, he won't let you cast a single encounter (insta CC in any situation, plus, HRs can dodge Icy Rays with Marauder's). Once he's close to you, you're dead (one rotation through Shield on TAB with 45k HP; if you're still alive, Piercing dots will do the rest).
Challenge Sandstorm from "7k GS Pugs" or K4to from Chocolate Shoppe. Find a decent tactic against them and I'll buy you a pig.
Which marauder's dodges Icy Rays? Marauder's Escape or Marauder's Rush?
Marauder's Escape. Dodges both damage and CC.
Really? I never knew that.
From what I've seen, Marauder's Escape always failed to actually make you "Escape". (Example: GWF's prones in mod3)
Knowing that it dodges Icy Rays aka Undodgeable Rays surprises me xD
EDIT: Little question: Does the HR have to cast Marauder's BEFORE the Icy Rays arrive? Or he can just press it when rooted and he'll be able to escape?
Before it arrives (pretty sure). At least Sandstorm was able to dodge it every time (but he's pretty skilled, too). Of course, as a CW, you can just mark the HR without going through with the IR and make him "waste" his Marauder's. But once he "arrives", it's insta Disruptive. You won't be able to cast anything anymore. Any CW power (except Repel) has a longer activation time than any Power of the HR (Fox, Marauder's, Boar). So, practically, the CW is always countered.
hmm I would love to see some 1v1 with those vs cow's in the same guild. pretty sure you are wrong on Marauders, doesn't break cc and doesn't "dodge" icy rays. Only way it would see like it is if you hit marauders right before cw cast and made it out of range
Yeah that doesn't work. Nothing can dodge it (which is pretty ridiculous, but it's your ace in the hole against HRs)
This only works if a target is in range, and only works on roots. It's helpful, but not at all reliable, obviously.
As for "too much CC", the only thing we have is disrupting shot (a short daze) and a close range prone. Dodge the prone and you're good.
Throne get HR killed, useless in model 4, even for combat HR
Me and Sandstorm tested Marauders Escape vs Icy Rays further. It does work, in a similar way that Icy Rays fail if cast on a stealthing TR. During marauders, an HR seems to be considered "stealthed" by the game. If Icy Rays hit the HR during the stealth period, he will not only not get CCed, but also not take damage at all.
Is it a reliable escape/dodge? No. It requires perfect timing, and for marauders to be up of course. But when it works, CW wasted their biggest nuke completely.
I still think at similar gear&skill CW has a decent chance of countering HR though. But without a daily, and Orb, a CW has almost no chance against a good HR. Which is kinda fair, since because with their newest gear choices, HRs spam dailies like there's no tomorrow and have almost full AP all time. So coming to fight them without AP makes a CW a sitting duck.
It's possible with two skills: Fox Shift and Marauder's Escape/Rush.
Both require good timing and ME/MR requires some very extreme timing. An example of a marauder's dodge:
http://www.twitch.tv/tempzy/b/561598222 from 4:37:25. On my first use of Marauder's Escape, you'll see it gets dodged and I take no CC or damage from it. If I ever bother to try and record some testing phases, I can show you individual uses of it where it dodges Icy Rays. Again, as magiquepurse said, it's difficult to time reliably during fights. The best way of dodging rays if through Fox but that requires the CW to be in range. Boar Rush will also break out of Icy Rays, but the same range issue applies.
Also hamletswords, Boar Rush CC cannot be interrupted - if you cc/interrupt the hr mid-cast provided at least some of the charge animation has executed even if they haven't hit you yet, you'll still get hit by the CC. This is definitely a bug and should be fixed ASAP to give CWs more of a chance against a HR.
In terms of CW vs HR - CW has a good chance of winning if they have daily + EOTS up. Icy Rays crit + Ice Knife crit will oneshot most HRs depending on gear and build. Soulforged is a different story though - if the CW has enough burst after that, assuming they still have 1-2 skills either on a short cooldown or off cooldown, they'll win. If not, well, the HR will probably end up healing up all the damage and the CW will lose. Without daily, short of the HR either being bad or making mistakes, the HR should win assuming similar gear and skill.
My advice for CWs is to watch the HR very carefully. Don't bother counting cooldowns if the HR is using the Royal Guard set, it's too unpredictable. A lot of HRs will open with Marauder's Rush, followed straight after with Boar Rush. So, make sure you dodge after Marauder's. Most HRs will also always follow Boar Rush with Fox Shift. You will definitely lose a lot of HP here, however, this also opens a good opportunity. Pretty much every CW I've fought has always started dodging like crazy (or at least once) after they get up from being proned. Pointless, as Fox Shift will have already executed. Your main concern now is being hit by Rapid Strike or Aimed Strike (melee at-wills, will proc Combat capstone/piercing damage). This, however, opens up a new opportunity for you to get an opening against the HR as they won't expect you to be attacking right after you've lost a good chunk of your HP. The reason why HRs will win against CWs is that more often than not, CWs start panicking when they start taking damage. The key to beating a HR is to play as offensively as possible and outdps them (harder than it sounds though), while also maintaining awareness and executing dodges well.
If you consider all that, HR vs CW can be 50-50 depending on RNG regarding crits or EOTS, but honestly? HR damage and healing needs to be toned down. Piercing damage should not go through deflect and defense. Boar Rush should have the CC part cancelled as well if it's interrupted. Toning down HR damage should help with the healing as well, but that should get looked at too. However, it'll still need to be carefully done or HRs will be left with not enough survivability. For all the HRs complaining about Fox Shift being wasted - yes, it's annoying, but it's also very useful because of the new range now, and it makes HR vr HR fights at least require an ounce of skill since you can bait the other HR into wasting FS. Still, I rather miss mod 3 HR where it was easier to tell the difference between a bad and good HR. It was fun switching stances all the time. I'm forced into playing full melee in order to be viable now (although, for the short time I played Stormwarden with Split the Sky, the 34k non-crit Split the Sky hit I got on some BIS geared HR in a 1v2 was hilarious. Pretty sure he crapped his pants since he wouldn't go anywhere near STS after that).
That being said, CWs need their damage toned down slightly as well. I think the damage of some encounters, such as shard in particular, should be increased while Storm Spell should have a damage decrease. Assailing Force is alright at the moment but I'd rather have the entire mechanic be changed to something that isn't an automatic proc. Oppressors should not be able to permafreeze people. Orb of Imposition is quite possibly bugged and should be fixed. Short of that, CWs are fine as they are - just increase the damage on some encounters, lower the damage of Storm Spell a bit and fix Orb of Imposition.
Anyway, that's just my input on the situation here from experience. Also. Red Dragon Glyphs need an ICD too.
P.S. Meld, it's 7k GS Scrubs, not pugs :P
I see a HR with full health
I Sprint away holding onto my belt
I see a HR close to death
I run to him and send gim to bed
The End
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
You see a node being capped, you sprint there fast to get the +300 and then get the hell out of there! Sorry, couldn't resist.
On Topic:
I'm pretty sure it's possible for CWs to beat HRs. I think I'll play an HR for a few days just to get a better hang of the new rotation/timing.
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