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CW changes are you kidding me?

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  • aulduronaulduron Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,351 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    inthere23 wrote: »
    Storm Spell and EOTS were your passives?

    They're the only passives I have, except for 1 point in the early ones that I had to put a point into.
  • harkurharkur Member Posts: 305 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2014
    walk2k wrote: »
    yes, you should definitely quit while you're behind. :rolleyes:

    I love my GF, and my DC too, they are both fun to play. but I make no illusions about how nearly useless they are in T2+ dungeons. tanks don't hold aggro for **** in this game. healing is nice but isn't needed with potions, and when you can do 100k a pop with 15% lifeleech. just the facts. just the way it is. I didn't design this game. lol


    And the design is changing. I get that you don't read, don't want to read, don't want to know anything outside the fact that your CW has been adjusted back to something resembling reality...nonetheless I'm going to try.

    Balance was broken. Period. When optimal group composition in a game with 6 classes is to use only two of them, and that with one of them stacked three or four deep, balance is broken. Yes, you did not design the game...those who did are trying to fix some of the broken balance.

    Tanks can now hold aggro much better and mitigate damage better. With tanks now being able to hold aggro more effectively potions are not going to keep them alive in T2 swarms, and so now healers have a chance to play the game too. But wait, there's more.

    No longer the synergistic DPS Kings of the Hill, CWs will finally have to make way for other DPS classes as opposed to three or four of them being a brilliant strategy for crushing content.

    So yes, in your mind I may be behind...but from where I sit, all I see is a geared out and now butthurt CW. The the non-CW/non-GWF crowd has been hearing "No, you're not wanted in here...we're waiting for another CW so leave or get V-kicked" long enough. Those days are starting to come to an end and your being upset about it doesn't bother me even a little bit.
  • aulduronaulduron Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,351 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    There is no such thing as class balance. You may as well seek the Holy Grail or the Loch Ness Monster
  • walk2kwalk2k Member Posts: 928 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    harkur wrote: »
    And the design is changing. I get that you don't read, don't want to read, don't want to know anything outside the fact that your CW has been adjusted back to something resembling reality...nonetheless I'm going to try.

    Balance was broken. Period. When optimal group composition in a game with 6 classes is to use only two of them, and that with one of them stacked three or four deep, balance is broken. Yes, you did not design the game...those who did are trying to fix some of the broken balance.

    Tanks can now hold aggro much better and mitigate damage better. With tanks now being able to hold aggro more effectively potions are not going to keep them alive in T2 swarms, and so now healers have a chance to play the game too. But wait, there's more.

    No longer the synergistic DPS Kings of the Hill, CWs will finally have to make way for other DPS classes as opposed to three or four of them being a brilliant strategy for crushing content.

    So yes, in your mind I may be behind...but from where I sit, all I see is a geared out and now butthurt CW. The the non-CW/non-GWF crowd has been hearing "No, you're not wanted in here...we're waiting for another CW so leave or get V-kicked" long enough. Those days are starting to come to an end and your being upset about it doesn't bother me even a little bit.

    TLDR; herp derp.

    next you'll say the class with the least armor and survivability shouldn't do the most DPS. o wait you are..

    DERP ON......

    CW "adjusted" that's a good one.
    every single spell and feat was ****ing nerfed into the ground. not talking 5%, 10% tweaks here. they nerfed spells by 60-80% FFS!
    80%, in case you can't do math which seems likely here, is a HELL OF A LOT
    many of the best feats were outright REMOVED and replaced with utter garbage.
    do you even play a CW or you just one of the whaaaaambulance chasers?
  • harkurharkur Member Posts: 305 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2014
    walk2k wrote: »
    TLDR; herp derp.

    next you'll say the class with the least armor and survivability shouldn't do the most DPS. o wait you are..

    DERP ON......

    CW "adjusted" that's a good one.
    every single spell and feat was ****ing nerfed into the ground. not talking 5%, 10% tweaks here. they nerfed spells by 60-80% FFS!
    80%, in case you can't do math which seems likely here, is a HELL OF A LOT
    many of the best feats were outright REMOVED and replaced with utter garbage.
    do you even play a CW or you just one of the whaaaaambulance chasers?


    You did not just say that CWs have the least survivability in the game? Oh...why yes, yes you did.

    Carry on.

    I have no need to chase the whaaaaaambulance, you seem to be posting from the back of it.
  • ironzerg79ironzerg79 Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,942 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    walk2k wrote: »
    TLDR; herp derp.

    next you'll say the class with the least armor and survivability shouldn't do the most DPS. o wait you are..

    DERP ON......

    CW "adjusted" that's a good one.
    every single spell and feat was ****ing nerfed into the ground. not talking 5%, 10% tweaks here. they nerfed spells by 60-80% FFS!
    80%, in case you can't do math which seems likely here, is a HELL OF A LOT
    many of the best feats were outright REMOVED and replaced with utter garbage.
    do you even play a CW or you just one of the whaaaaambulance chasers?

    You must be related to Jon Snow...because you know nothing.

    The CW is pretty ridiculous right now. If you'd spend less time on the forums and more time playing the game, you might realize that.
    "Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
    i7TZDZK.gif?1
  • yperkeimenosyperkeimenos Member Posts: 334 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    ironzerg79 wrote: »
    Really? There's like 10 threads in the forum already calling for massive nerfs to the new Mod 4 CW.

    How about you take some time to actually play the game and figure out the changes before writing your own epitaph?

    The people who complain in these threads are the same ones who yelled that Control Wizards must have control but not damage and yet screamed for a CONTROL nerf when CONTROL wizards got a CONTROL buff in orb of imposition,which is a mild buff mind you. So yeah ,whiners aren't something new in Neverwinter. I would gladly give up on damage for Absolute control. Give me CC immunity and Tenacity penetration and reduce the Control powers of all other classes so that control is truly the Realm of Cws. Then we can discuss any damage nerfs,but not before.
    It's BUGS bunny i tell you.
  • odinsavatarodinsavatar Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 7 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    People complaining about the changes have either not played the game or have no ability or brains. (The fact that one used TLDR in a post, an obvious sign of stupidity and possible illiteracy, suggests the later) I was able to clear the lesser heroic encounters in IWD much easier today than i have been able to in the past, simply by replacing Shard with Icy Terrain. This combo is actually easier to use because you don't have to worry about pushing the shard at the perfect angle or not being able to push it at all because you stepped a fraction of an inch away from it after you summoned it. The new rotation is easier to use and seems to generate action points faster as well.
  • borak2borak2 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 202 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    inthere23 wrote: »
    Exactly, and that is the reason for the changes. Of course while all the CWs were whining about the changes on preview, a stealth buff came in the 11th hour that boosted Storm Spell damage so much (7 times!) that even CW's were saying it was too much.

    As for Tank and healer, to be brief, GF is now buffing group damage 35%+ and boosting action point gain with Into The fray and also got their threat tripled, going to come in very handy in the new dungeons, so before you and the GWFs start crying about how much you die it would be prudent to include one in your group. DC is needed to keep the GF alive but also buffs group damage and debuffs the monsters.

    So now there is a reason for both in your group instead of the GWF/CW only groups of mod 3.

    It'll take awhile to sink in because the general populace doesn't know about Into The Fray and a lot of GF's won't use it in the beginning, but after enough of them start getting kicked from not using it GF will soon be mandatory in the new dungeons in a few months.

    I just wanted to say DC's and GF's are still not needed in groups. I ran TOS today with 3 CW's and 2 GWF's. 2 cw's were oppressor and 1 was thaum. We wiped once during the boss the first try and afterwards we breezed through. i have a normal vorpal and HV set and went full oppressor and ended with 7.5 million damage. the other oppressor had 8 million and the thaum had 11.5 million damage.

    Yes it would be easier with a dc and gf but we still did it in around 20 minutes without them. So much for the devs making teams more diverse.
  • shadowbunsliceshadowbunslice Member Posts: 175 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2014
    walk2k wrote: »
    TLDR; herp derp.

    next you'll say the class with the least armor and survivability shouldn't do the most DPS. o wait you are..

    DERP ON......

    CW "adjusted" that's a good one.
    every single spell and feat was ****ing nerfed into the ground. not talking 5%, 10% tweaks here. they nerfed spells by 60-80% FFS!
    80%, in case you can't do math which seems likely here, is a HELL OF A LOT
    many of the best feats were outright REMOVED and replaced with utter garbage.
    do you even play a CW or you just one of the whaaaaambulance chasers?

    *raises hand. I play a rogue as well as a CW. Rogues have no better armor or HP than cws. We also benefit less from life steal. We also have to close to melee range for most of our decent(actually complete garbage) PVE powers. We also have virtually no control, and now, no debuffs either. So please, pretty please with sugar on top name ONE reason why a CW should be doing 4-10 times more damage in a dungeon run than a TR. This, by the way, has not changed in M4.

    Since you obviously have not read anything or tried to adapt at all I am not really expecting an intelligent answer, but hey, one can hope right?.
  • qyspqysp Member Posts: 8 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    harkur wrote: »
    And the design is changing. I get that you don't read, don't want to read, don't want to know anything outside the fact that your CW has been adjusted back to something resembling reality...nonetheless I'm going to try.

    Balance was broken. Period. When optimal group composition in a game with 6 classes is to use only two of them, and that with one of them stacked three or four deep, balance is broken. Yes, you did not design the game...those who did are trying to fix some of the broken balance.

    Tanks can now hold aggro much better and mitigate damage better. With tanks now being able to hold aggro more effectively potions are not going to keep them alive in T2 swarms, and so now healers have a chance to play the game too. But wait, there's more.

    No longer the synergistic DPS Kings of the Hill, CWs will finally have to make way for other DPS classes as opposed to three or four of them being a brilliant strategy for crushing content.

    So yes, in your mind I may be behind...but from where I sit, all I see is a geared out and now butthurt CW. The the non-CW/non-GWF crowd has been hearing "No, you're not wanted in here...we're waiting for another CW so leave or get V-kicked" long enough. Those days are starting to come to an end and your being upset about it doesn't bother me even a little bit.

    Lol. Because I read about (edit:it) ahead of time ...it all makes it *good*. Too funny for words. But wait there's more? Lol. I am dying. Wait till the cw as a class is booted for the lock. It's all a vicious fotm. Justify all you want. We all know why this change came when it did. You've got some dirt there on your nose.
  • xultrakillxultrakill Member Posts: 63 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    encounters are not everything in this game, and 3% nerf in the feats before lv30 is near to nothing.

    sudden storm was op, it can get a cooldown of 6 seconds and it hit infinite targets. It is much weaker now but it's still one of the best skill in the game.

    shard of EA's damage was higher than sudden storm, just with a lower DPS. some people may also say it's op but not me because it takes a long time to cast. In mod 4 it just changed from a damage skill to a control skill. the damage is still decent if you add the 25% buff in Thaum feats.

    some other skill changes, maximum 30% nerf, most only 10% nerf, eye of storm no longer give nearly 50% crit, spellstorm and MoF class features got buffed, steal time got buffed, and freeze won't end early. The only thing bad to me was Sing got nerfed to 8 targets, i have no idea what that will effect yet (smaller runs? stack CWs? no CWs?). overall it's not too bad of a nerf upon the encounters.

    the feats, the tiny changes of 3-5% damage is really not that much. the two DoTs and assiling in Thaum tree is the real deal, i'd say they are the main DPS skill of CWs now. Adding an extra 3000 DPS if fighting single target, 1000-2000 DPS on every target in AoE. the DPS (damage/cooldown) of most CWs are lower than 1000.
    and an extra thing about freeze, 10 points in opp tree and sudden storm can apply 5 stacks of chill. put ice terrin down, hit mob with sudden storm = freeze. if they stay on ice terrin then every time you use sudden storm = freeze.

    i gave up the 25% shard damage in Thaum tree and put 10 in Opp tree for the sudden storm chill, sudden storm on Tab, other 3 for conduit of ice, steal time and ice terrin. class feature storm spell and evocation. I'm dealing ~20% less damage but the freeze totally make that up.

    So mob4 is no nerf to me.
  • xultrakillxultrakill Member Posts: 63 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    *So please, pretty please with sugar on top name ONE reason why a CW should be doing 4-10 times more damage in a dungeon run than a TR.

    i seen TRs who can deal higher damage both live in my party and in videos. I have no idea how, (though i hear that their flurry at-will can hit every target in a CW's Sing. Or they do so extreme single target damage with over 50% crit and p.vorpal and combat advantage and even more crit severity from feats+stealth, that add up to be higher than CW's AoE attack) but it does show that TR can do extreme damage if played correctly.
  • rayrdanrayrdan Member Posts: 5,410 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    xultrakill wrote: »
    i seen TRs who can deal higher damage both live in my party and in videos. I have no idea how, (though i hear that their flurry at-will can hit every target in a CW's Sing. Or they do so extreme single target damage with over 50% crit and p.vorpal and combat advantage and even more crit severity from feats+stealth, that add up to be higher than CW's AoE attack) but it does show that TR can do extreme damage if played correctly.

    lies !!!!!!!!!!!
  • kozi001kozi001 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 876 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    borak2 wrote: »
    I just wanted to say DC's and GF's are still not needed in groups. I ran TOS today with 3 CW's and 2 GWF's. 2 cw's were oppressor and 1 was thaum. We wiped once during the boss the first try and afterwards we breezed through. i have a normal vorpal and HV set and went full oppressor and ended with 7.5 million damage. the other oppressor had 8 million and the thaum had 11.5 million damage.

    Yes it would be easier with a dc and gf but we still did it in around 20 minutes without them. So much for the devs making teams more diverse.

    We tried CN with GF instead of GWF the run wasn't that much faster but so much smoother. We were rarely in low HP becasue of Knight Valor. We could run faster between rooms with Into the fray.
    IV GWF could barely hold aggro on Draco because of the nerfed threatening rush. GF could.

    GFs will be good or probably the best melees in Lostmouth. Into the Fray/Knight Valor to boss/Valiant Warrior or Knight captain or the new +5% DR buff armor

    Debuff DCs are totally needed. MAke runs minutes faster.
  • walk2kwalk2k Member Posts: 928 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    simply by replacing Shard with Icy Terrain.
    .
    This is only because of a bug in Spell Storm which they are obviously going to fix

    Plus it only helps if you HAVE storm spell - guess what? I never took it... so we can either spend REAL MONEY on a respec (zen to AD thing is completely borked right now) - and then probably have to do it again when they obviously nerf it, or just wait until they pull their heads out......... zzz

    WHY when they made so many changes to every class did they not give us a FREE RESPEC*? for F's sake last time they changed a few armor sets (High Vis and I think a GF set) they gave us free respecs... but not now??
    *don't answer, it's obviously a cash grab

    YES there are other ways to play CW now, and yeah we'll adapt etc etc... I know I know, this isn't my first rodeo with MMO games and their infernal "balance changes"... :rolleyes:

    POINT is they went WAY overboard here. WAY WAY overboard. They could have cleaned things up with just 1 or 2 tweaks, like reducing dmg of Sharsplosion and Sudden Storm. but NO they went ape****..

    1 .they removed one AOE buff feat and nerfed the other.

    2. they removed not one but TWO mitigation debuffs (I don't care of names but one gave -10% mit to things you hit with arcane spells and the other was the capstone in Thaum. for Conduit that gave -15% mit).

    I don't care what you buff, when you do those 2 things (er... 4 things) you nerf every single attack a mage has (well AoE attacks, every single attack I use is AoE, except for MM, but OH yeah they nerfed that too.. FFS.

    People spent a lot of time (and money, some people spent $thousands, I didn't but..) making a CW and now you tell them "throw all that out and start over" ?? Yea, no. That's not how you do it, in fact I think they invented the WORST possible way to do it, congrats.

    Also a new bug - using Conduit on tab it doesn't "take" unless you hold the key down and wait a second. I used to be able to tap it and start my next move but now I have to spam it and sit there waiting for it to start - gg testing pw.
  • mxtimemxtime Member Posts: 316 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2014
    xultrakill wrote: »
    i seen TRs who can deal higher damage both live in my party and in videos. I have no idea how, (though i hear that their flurry at-will can hit every target in a CW's Sing. Or they do so extreme single target damage with over 50% crit and p.vorpal and combat advantage and even more crit severity from feats+stealth, that add up to be higher than CW's AoE attack) but it does show that TR can do extreme damage if played correctly.

    i seen em to abouth year ago
    good memory man
  • aulduronaulduron Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,351 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    *So please, pretty please with sugar on top name ONE reason why a CW should be doing 4-10 times more damage in a dungeon run than a TR.

    Obviously, because CWs deal with 4-10 times as many mobs at once than a TR.
  • shadowbunsliceshadowbunslice Member Posts: 175 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2014
    aulduron wrote: »
    Obviously, because CWs deal with 4-10 times as many mobs at once than a TR.


    So obviously a TR should be able to kill 1 mob 4-10 times faster right? Tr needs buffs, this is part of the problem. I completely agree agree with the sentiment that free respecs should have be handed out, and that CW could have been fixed with simple solutions that would affect a minimum amount of playstyle. But I'll disagree hard if people are trying to say Mod 3 CW was "fine", or that Mod 4 CW is weak. Also, we can count on storm spell being fixed sooner rather than later because Mod 3 GWF roar was cleaned up nice and tidy with due haste right...........
  • yperkeimenosyperkeimenos Member Posts: 334 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    So please, pretty please with sugar on top name ONE reason why a CW should be doing 4-10 times more damage in a dungeon run than a TR. This, by the way, has not changed in M4.

    Since you obviously have not read anything or tried to adapt at all I am not really expecting an intelligent answer, but hey, one can hope right?.

    The reason,my friend,that cws can outdps any other class in dungeons is because of the way dungeons are designed to be Cw friendly,and the reason for this is this thing called Hordes of Adds.When facing hundreds of Mobs even the weakest Aoe class will do small amounts of damage that will ad up to Huge numbers. It's not that Cws powers do huge damage but rather the fact that their damage is multiplied by every Monster they hit,because they are Aoe by default. And yes TR and other fighter classes are not Aoe but single damage by default and that means , if in a dungeon instead of having countless hordes of mobs you had only a few very strong Bosses you would see Cws bottoming out, at the paingiver stat, all the time. Also Storm spell was nerfed twice before going Live (15% activation chance reduction and no more Chill stacks proccing it),so don't expect new nerfs any time soon.In my opinion it's fine although i would support a damage reduction of 50% but with a proccing chance of 35% instead of 20%. What can i say,i just love the lightning effects.
    It's BUGS bunny i tell you.
  • shadowbunsliceshadowbunslice Member Posts: 175 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2014
    I would be ok with that if CWs were weak in ST dps, but they are not at all. I have a 15k CW and a 15k TR. CW>TR in ST burst and TR>CW in continuous ST damage. This was M3, but all things considered it looks like CW ST damage might have actually been buffed, at least the potentiality of it in any case. CWs are pretty much dead even with everyone else in terms of ST damage, my own experience and opinion, and if they are not dead even, they are not far behind.
  • yperkeimenosyperkeimenos Member Posts: 334 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    You aren't mistaken,their Single damage was increased through assailing force feat,so they could be competitive in PvP,since they were lacking greatly there.Their Defense was increased as well through shield but at the cost of DPS,so that change was balanced nicely.
    It's BUGS bunny i tell you.
  • mxtimemxtime Member Posts: 316 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2014
    You aren't mistaken,their Single damage was increased through assailing force feat,so they could be competitive in PvP,since they were lacking greatly there.Their Defense was increased as well through shield but at the cost of DPS,so that change was balanced nicely.

    single target buffed in pvp-best burst in the game
    shield buff in pvp-easy to get 40k hp with shield tanky as any gwf
    more cc in pve
    still best class for pve
    best off all worlds not a nice balance lool
  • hamletswordshamletswords Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 1,320 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2014
    Dude I am so not kidding you.
    My Harem: Dawn HR, Erin CW, Piper TR, Zoe GWF
  • aulduronaulduron Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,351 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    So obviously a TR should be able to kill 1 mob 4-10 times faster right? Tr needs buffs, this is part of the problem. I completely agree agree with the sentiment that free respecs should have be handed out, and that CW could have been fixed with simple solutions that would affect a minimum amount of playstyle. But I'll disagree hard if people are trying to say Mod 3 CW was "fine", or that Mod 4 CW is weak. Also, we can count on storm spell being fixed sooner rather than later because Mod 3 GWF roar was cleaned up nice and tidy with due haste right...........

    Yes, a TR should be able to kill single mobs faster than a CW can.
    Yes, TRs need buffed.
  • xthebluespiritxxthebluespiritx Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    nobody realizes cryptic doesnt WANT you to kill stuff in 5 seconds, so it takes longer to kill stuff...deal with it
  • inthere23inthere23 Member Posts: 191 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    And still today I group with CWs using shard and complaining about not being top of the paingiver, should I tell them or wait a month?
    Venril Sathir- CW
    Venril- SW
    Lurch- GF
    Mini Ven- DC
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