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Regaining the confidence of the community

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  • tripsofthrymrtripsofthrymr Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,624 Community Moderator
    edited August 2014
    melodywhr wrote: »
    you want this, but i don't care about those details. i'm sure there are countless others that don't either.

    Count me as one who does care about the details. I also happen to work in the field of customer loyalty, and I can tell you with confidence that lack of transparency leads to lack of trust, which leads to customer loss. No matter how good the player numbers are for PWE, increasing customer trust would increase their bottom line.
    Caritas Guild Founder (Greycloak Alliance)

    Sci-fi author: The Gods We Make, The Gods We Seek, and Ji-min
  • kumalucakumaluca Member Posts: 51 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    mmorpg or mmomafia?There's a lot of statistics that will point to one...an interesting read no doubt
  • harkurharkur Member Posts: 305 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2014
    myowmyow wrote: »
    Sigh. Reading those news releases from "other" gaming companies was so refreshing! I really wish the same could happen with PWE/Cryptic - detailed information, especially "permanent" bans for exploiters.

    I am beginning to lose hope.


    You have to realize that EvE is a very very very different animal. It's players are far more involved in how the game is run (and in some cases built, as players have moved on to working inside) and the player base can and does move the company in terms of what they do. It's also very much not F2P, and it's never going to be. So, apples and oranges. However, the transparency...whether forced or not...is still a good thing.
  • rashylewizzrashylewizz Member Posts: 4,265 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2014
    I do hope Cryptic does plan on showing some confidence to its playerbase other than Akromatik's empty post that a lot of players are kinda ridiculing for its corporate-shilling vibe that doesn't really say anything.

    I've also seen displeasure from a lot of players on the forums, legit channel and reddit posting evidences of exploiters still being unbanned. I hope Cryptic will address this one way or another because based on what I've seen, people are either disappointed at cryptic or apathetic at cryptic based on their recent actions
  • rashylewizzrashylewizz Member Posts: 4,265 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2014
    melodywhr wrote: »
    that's just it... credibility. between PWE's statements and someone that's been banned for exploiting, it seems like more people want to believe exploiters. where's the logic in that?

    i think it doesn't matter what information PWE provides.

    I would like to disagree with you on that notion Melody. I have seen proof and confessions that these exploiter are still unbanned. The threads are quickly taken down, but those that have seen glimpses of it are aware.

    For others, you may simply go on the NW_legit channel. I'm sure some of the more vigilant people will be willing to PM it to you as well that a lot of exploiters did get away from the ban-wave and some AD exploits are still not fixed.

    As of right now, PWE has provided NO specific information regarding bans other than Akromatik's statements which really doesn't say anything other than serve as a corporate shill newsletter.

    On the other hand, some players who still care about this game on reddit, nw_legit and on the forums have posted clear and dry evidence that Cryptic has failed in their recent actions.

    Should I believe in the post by Akromatik which doesn't say anything or should I believe in these pictures and evidences showing unbanned exploiters confessing and ridiculing Cryptic?
  • tonyswutonyswu Member Posts: 223 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    Saying you banned x number of players is meaningless unless people also know the size of the current playerbase. Cryptic's not going to announce the size of the current playerbase.


    I estimate 55,000. Maybe less.

    In PvP leader boards, there are roughly 3300 pages. Each page has 20 entries. 20 x 3300 = 66000. Take into accounts of alts and bots, and people who never do PvP, I'd minus the real "people" players to be a lower number than that.
  • ryugasiriusryugasirius Member Posts: 996 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    harkur wrote: »
    You have to realize that EvE is a very very very different animal. It's players are far more involved in how the game is run (and in some cases built, as players have moved on to working inside) and the player base can and does move the company in terms of what they do. It's also very much not F2P, and it's never going to be. So, apples and oranges. However, the transparency...whether forced or not...is still a good thing.

    Both are companies that profit from games they make and manage. Yes, apples and oranges if we look at the game model. But, still, there's no reason for an apples vendor to behave differently from an oranges vendor when PR and exploiting are involved.

    I must have been somehow missing the obvious, but I can't understand why we shouldn't have some statistics about how much the bans will impact on the economy (i.e. "we permanently banned 825 accounts, a total of 590 million AD were removed from circulation and an approximate of 2,4 billion worth in assets").
  • mconosrepmconosrep Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    Both are companies that profit from games they make and manage. Yes, apples and oranges if we look at the game model. But, still, there's no reason for an apples vendor to behave differently from an oranges vendor when PR and exploiting are involved.

    I must have been somehow missing the obvious, but I can't understand why we shouldn't have some statistics about how much the bans will impact on the economy (i.e. "we permanently banned 825 accounts, a total of 590 million AD were removed from circulation and an approximate of 2,4 billion worth in assets").

    It is quite possible you are - Occam's Razor suggests that the most obvious reason why a company, that behaves in its own self-interest, would not do this is the correct one.
  • schweifer1982schweifer1982 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,662 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    The problem is there are exploiter in /Channel_Join NW_Legit_Community too.
    "Just Disguised "

    I am tired to report those ppl this consume too much time .
    I want to play not report all day so from today i will stop reporting.
    Any way they only get a few day ban ,+ they can keep the easy way earned AD .
    Why shoud i report somone if this will happen agan agan bacuse they know nothing will harm them.
    GWF 3700Ilvl Éjsötét & ProPala 3200Ilvl Menydörgés (main) & Szürkefarkas 2600 ilvl
  • twilightwatchmantwilightwatchman Member Posts: 2,007 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    I think it's abundantly clear that we aren't going to get any information beyond Akro's limited statement. Personally I think that's a mistake, but it's Cryptic/PWE's toybox and they can do what they like.

    That being the case I feel that the time for regaining player confidence has long passed and all I can see is a further decline in player satisfaction leading to the inevitable demise of the game as player numbers dwindle. Some of us will see it out to the bitter end but I have to say that my regular-but-modest cash drops will probably cease. In fact they already have. It's to dispiriting to see so many people cheating their way to levels of performance I will probably never reach through legitimate means.

    Hey ho.
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  • kumalucakumaluca Member Posts: 51 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    I have sent about 30 or so messages..initially with each name.So maybe that will help since NOTHING ELSE WORKED.So I sent a message with each name...and then some extra messages and then some more making sure the names were clear.It's pretty sad when joe shmo says hey this account has been selling bot stuff for about a year...maybe do some IP digging?It's so sad this continues and continues and continues and I am looking forward to this being locked saying I should say something in game when I have been this entire time.It's not whether I say something in game it's eventually to the point where you have to say something anywhere since no one listens.I know some of you like bots and the game itself has made stuff ridiculous to the point where you need or shoulld cheat but ...take five and go play dragon warrior or some other real RPG then come back to this
  • ironzerg79ironzerg79 Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,942 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    melodywhr wrote: »
    ultimately PWE is a for-profit company with multiple game titles and they will do what is best for the company based on internal data and decisions. whether external influence would be a major factor in those decisions remains to be seen.

    This sounds like a tagline from EA, voted worse company in America how many times?

    There's an old saying in business, "If you don't take care of the customer, someone else will." Companies that do right by their customers end up swimming in so much money they have to hire more people just to count it for them.
    "Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
    i7TZDZK.gif?1
  • kattefjaeskattefjaes Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 2,270 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2014
    ironzerg79 wrote: »
    This sounds like a tagline from EA, voted worse company in America how many times?

    There's an old saying in business, "If you don't take care of the customer, someone else will." Companies that do right by their customers end up swimming in so much money they have to hire more people just to count it for them.

    Well said. If you gouge your customers too blatantly, they leave- eventually. If you give them better value and actual discretionary purchases, they will hate you less, and you will make more overall. Players are content. Not everyone understands that, of course:

    http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/08/11/ubisoft-analyst-digs-into-league-of-legends-business-model-flaw/
  • melodywhrmelodywhr Member Posts: 4,218 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    kumaluca wrote: »
    I have sent about 30 or so messages..initially with each name.So maybe that will help since NOTHING ELSE WORKED.So I sent a message with each name...and then some extra messages and then some more making sure the names were clear.It's pretty sad when joe shmo says hey this account has been selling bot stuff for about a year...maybe do some IP digging?It's so sad this continues and continues and continues and I am looking forward to this being locked saying I should say something in game when I have been this entire time.It's not whether I say something in game it's eventually to the point where you have to say something anywhere since no one listens.I know some of you like bots and the game itself has made stuff ridiculous to the point where you need or shoulld cheat but ...take five and go play dragon warrior or some other real RPG then come back to this

    to focus on the subject at hand which is community confidence, in your claims of following around the same number of characters after reporting them multiple times is... a little difficult to believe. but let's just say you did do this. you would first have to prove that they're doing something that PWE is going to deem as bad behavior. after you submit a report, your job is done. PWE will do their investigation and take action as they see fit. that action may be a flag against that user, it may be that the report was inconclusive or it may be communication with that user... it could be a brief ban, it could be a seven day ban, it could be a perma-ban. but due to PWE's privacy policy, they aren't going to tell you the results of your report. they tell you that in reply to your report. if that's not acceptable then you don't have very many other options in front of you.

    but you assume that nothing is being done. the fact is you will never know what actions they took or the results of their investigation. their privacy policy prohibits it.
  • ryugasiriusryugasirius Member Posts: 996 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    kattefjaes wrote: »
    Well said. If you gouge your customers too blatantly, they leave- eventually. If you give them better value and actual discretionary purchases, they will hate you less, and you will make more overall. Players are content. Not everyone understands that, of course:

    http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/08/11/ubisoft-analyst-digs-into-league-of-legends-business-model-flaw/

    The article is interesting. The analyst seems to completely fail at grasping the concept that a more open ("free" if you want) game business model attracts a huge playerbase. He says "They are still afloat only because they have a large playerbase" and suggests Riot should be milking their customers more... he completely fails at actually analyzing WHY they have a huge playerbase, and goes like "hey, they somehow stumbled upon it".
  • kattefjaeskattefjaes Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 2,270 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2014
    magenubbie wrote: »
    Nice rant in that article. Someone forgot to complete the math. 3% paying customers in that case is still almost 2mil paying customers. Not bad for a game that young, regardless of the % of the total playerbase that is. The article is obviously written by someone with only a theoretical knowledge of marketing and sales.

    Other than that, you're right.

    I'm afraid you're confusing the point I am trying to make by posting that with the contents of the linked article. I am more than aware of those points, which is why I posted the link in the first place. The Ubisoft "analyst" seems to make the point about predatory pricing and mistreating customers for me, albeit unwittingly.

    magenubbie wrote: »
    There's a saying in the sales world, and there's 100s of statistics proving this: A happy customer will generally tell about 10 people he knows how good a product is. A sad customer will tell about 100 people about how bad a product is.

    Quite.. unless you're working with the "smash and grab" method, making a load of money in the short term, and then bolting- which has very limited potential. That has become increasingly popular in gaming of late, with large expensive "collector's edition" pre-order packs for MMOs which then sink without trace due to minimal improvement post-launch.

    The really big bucks are to be made from having many happy customers who like your product or service, and tell their friends about it over time. Even if only a low percentage pay the really big bucks due to elasticities of demand, it tends to scale better. However, treat people badly, and you'll never get there. Overly aggressive "monetization" (ugh) is often a danger sign that caution is being thrown to the winds, either consciously or through poor strategy. The harder the squeeze, the worse the long-term prognosis tends to be- as a rule of thumb.

    Nothing travels faster than the speed of light with the possible exception of bad news, which obeys its own special laws. The Hingefreel people of Arkintoofle Minor did try to build spaceships that were powered by bad news but they didn't work particularly well and were so extremely unwelcome whenever they arrived anywhere that there wasn’t really any point in being there.
  • myowmyowmyowmyow Member Posts: 1,923 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    melodywhr wrote: »
    to focus on the subject at hand which is community confidence, in your claims of following around the same number of characters after reporting them multiple times is... a little difficult to believe. but let's just say you did do this. you would first have to prove that they're doing something that PWE is going to deem as bad behavior. after you submit a report, your job is done. PWE will do their investigation and take action as they see fit. that action may be a flag against that user, it may be that the report was inconclusive or it may be communication with that user... it could be a brief ban, it could be a seven day ban, it could be a perma-ban. but due to PWE's privacy policy, they aren't going to tell you the results of your report. they tell you that in reply to your report. if that's not acceptable then you don't have very many other options in front of you.

    but you assume that nothing is being done. the fact is you will never know what actions they took or the results of their investigation. their privacy policy prohibits it.

    There is truth to what you say, as it is sometimes difficult to differentiate a bot from a "market" player. I have known people in other MMOs that played the economy like the stock market, rarely engaging in the actual roleplaying part of the game.

    However, in this thread and others, several people have PERSONALLY known players who worked the recent exploit and were only banned for 3 or 7 days - and they have even come back after the ban to brag about it. This type of "temporary" ban is unacceptable for any MMO. Just do some research. A permanent account ban is almost always done for purposeful exploits of any game.

    Once an exploiter, always and exploiter, especially if the exploiter knows the ban will be temporary and they can be back in business in a week, trying to find ANOTHER exploit to farm.

    It is easy to permanently ban an account - ban the email address forever. Sure, they can create another email address, but the exploiter will have to start all over again - at least that lessens the in-game economic effects.

    I have worked in Human Resources for 22 years. If someone at work purposefully lies or cheats, they don't get a short-term suspension - they are FIRED! And also marked as "not eligible for rehire."

    PWE/Cryptic need to get with the program and use PERMANENT bans for exploiters. It is simply ridiculous not to do so.
    SEC! SEC! SEC! SEC! SEC! SEC! SEC! SEC! SEC! SEC! SEC! SEC! SEC! (repeat indefinitely)


    myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!"
    pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all."
    looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
  • melodywhrmelodywhr Member Posts: 4,218 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    myowmyow wrote: »
    There is truth to what you say, as it is sometimes difficult to differentiate a bot from a "market" player. I have known people in other MMOs that played the economy like the stock market, rarely engaging in the actual roleplaying part of the game.

    However, in this thread and others, several people have PERSONALLY known players who worked the recent exploit and were only banned for 3 or 7 days - and they have even come back after the ban to brag about it. This type of "temporary" ban is unacceptable for any MMO. Just do some research. A permanent account ban is almost always done for purposeful exploits of any game.

    Once an exploiter, always and exploiter, especially if the exploiter knows the ban will be temporary and they can be back in business in a week, trying to find ANOTHER exploit to farm.

    It is easy to permanently ban an account - ban the email address forever. Sure, they can create another email address, but the exploiter will have to start all over again - at least that lessens the in-game economic effects.

    I have worked in Human Resources for 22 years. If someone at work purposefully lies or cheats, they don't get a short-term suspension - they are FIRED! And also marked as "not eligible for rehire."

    PWE/Cryptic need to get with the program and use PERMANENT bans for exploiters. It is simply ridiculous not to do so.

    i'm not disagreeing with you. exploiters do need to be ejected for sure. but i think it's a bit crazy to believe that players that get banned aren't flagged and therefore can get away with multiple bans over time.

    ultimately it is PWE's decision how they handle bad behavior and that interaction is between PWE and the individual only. between this mythical honest exploiter and the "evil money-making corporation", you're left to believe what you want to believe.
  • myowmyowmyowmyow Member Posts: 1,923 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    melodywhr wrote: »
    ultimately it is PWE's decision how they handle bad behavior and that interaction is between PWE and the individual only. between this mythical honest exploiter and the "evil money-making corporation", you're left to believe what you want to believe.

    Of course it is PWE's decision on how they handle exploiters, but the fact remains that there have been exploiters known by other members of this forum that have only been given short-term bans. My point here is to "attempt" to convince PWE/Cryptic to change their policy/procedure on cheats/exploiters and issue permanent bans. I don't know if PWE/Cryptic employees read these forums, but I suppose I have a glimmer of hope that they do, as I have seen them make changes (I read patch notes) that seem to be responses to legitimate complaints on the forums.

    If they continue down the path of short-term bans, the game is going to suffer and some good, honest players will leave. Since I have invested time and money into this game, it is in my best interest that the game survives.

    I do not believe in the "evil money-making corporation" ideal like some people, because I have worked in coporate America for decades. I know companies must make money, but PWE/Cryptic are going to lose money in the long run if they do not enforce strict permanent bans on cheats/exploiters. Mark my words and watch what happens over the next year if they do not make a change to this ban policy.
    SEC! SEC! SEC! SEC! SEC! SEC! SEC! SEC! SEC! SEC! SEC! SEC! SEC! (repeat indefinitely)


    myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!"
    pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all."
    looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
  • hmdq#4491 hmdq Member Posts: 508 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    totally agree +1
  • charononuscharononus Member Posts: 5,715 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    myowmyow wrote: »

    I do not believe in the "evil money-making corporation" ideal like some people, because I have worked in coporate America for decades.
    Most of this doesn't apply to entertainment companies other than they can be short sighted in their goals. Most of the "evil coprporation" theory is directed to companies that sell something required for society or employ a large workforce, or have a large market share or an item.
  • captsplinkycaptsplinky Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 22 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    The notice from Akro is fine with me, it tells me action is being taken. I don't need to know who, how many, or for how long.
    What I would like to see is results it is hard for me to believe that the 6.5 Billion AD in the ZAX is all legit. If these people were banned for the AD exploit they should have been stripped of their AD.
  • nwnghostnwnghost Member, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    In my opinion, and from experience as staff on other MMOs, if someone is not permanently banned for an exploit-for-gain (which is rare), temporary bans would always result in forfeiture of all funds or deletion of characters (leaving the account itself available to play afterwards, in case they had bought account wide packs)

    From what many people have posted here and on other sites, those who are temporarily banned here unfortunately get to keep all their ill-gotten gains, which I feel is an extremely poor deterrent for those tempted to use exploits. It is also rather mid-boggling for legit players why these exploiters are not somehow penalized (other than a short holiday). Tort and Proceeds from Crime comes to mind as a real world comparison.

    There would also be more confidence in the community, if people reported (with evidence) of exploits were actually banned. So far, I have not seen this happen at all from personal experience here, though of course I can't speak for everyone.
  • rashylewizzrashylewizz Member Posts: 4,265 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2014
    The notice from Akro is fine with me, it tells me action is being taken. I don't need to know who, how many, or for how long.

    The thing is, we have picture evidence that they did a poor & incomplete job and that a lot of the bigtime exploiters got away.

    And if you choose to be ignorant, that is your prerogative. I however have seen the negative impact of duplicated AD in the economy and would like to have more reassurances from Cryptic.
  • ryonasryonas Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 158 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    May I point to something that happened recently & last year:

    The exploit at the AH

    The Caturday on the official forums was discussed and told to the whole public on official thread with tiniest detail by mods themselves
    Not us players on reddit or social media

    However As for the recent exploit that happened that utterly destroyed the economy

    After they took the servers immediately and fixed that exploit to stop any further damage .. which is superbly great from the devs for the quick response on fixing it ... i was so glad about that to know the devs keep their watch on chat channels along with the community reporting to the devs

    We all waited for official announcement and all they said to protect customer confidentiality .. according to law & terms we agreed upon
    they don't have to announce what was the exploit

    .... ok i am cool using that since we all signed on that when we created the accounts .. but why on Caturday did they explain in detail what happened and not this one .. what is the difference .. ??

    May be i am shortsighted ?? I guess
  • captsplinkycaptsplinky Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 22 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    Thank you for being more concise than I was.
    nwnghost wrote: »
    In my opinion, and from experience as staff on other MMOs, if someone is not permanently banned for an exploit-for-gain (which is rare), temporary bans would always result in forfeiture of all funds or deletion of characters (leaving the account itself available to play afterwards, in case they had bought account wide packs)

    From what many people have posted here and on other sites, those who are temporarily banned here unfortunately get to keep all their ill-gotten gains, which I feel is an extremely poor deterrent for those tempted to use exploits. It is also rather mid-boggling for legit players why these exploiters are not somehow penalized (other than a short holiday). Tort and Proceeds from Crime comes to mind as a real world comparison.

    There would also be more confidence in the community, if people reported (with evidence) of exploits were actually banned. So far, I have not seen this happen at all from personal experience here, though of course I can't speak for everyone.

    Stripping the ill-gotten gains of the exploiters is what will reassure me and give me confidence in the game, because statistics can lie.
    Giving me a bunch of numbers pulled out of someone's ...Hat tells me nothing.
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