Regaining the confidence of the community

ironzerg79 · August 2014

While I know Cryptic has a policy against sharing specific details, it would be a real boost to the moral of the community if we had some sort of report on the outcomes of these investigations into exploits. Right now, there's very little confidence in how these things are being handle, and doubts as to how much impact Cryptic can really have on repairing the damage done to the economy, which in turn only hurts the legitimate players in this game.

No one here is asking for details, but as an example from another MMO, here's how they report details as they deal with RMT violations:

http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/team-security-now-with-100-percent-more-anti-rmt/

A quote from that article:

Much like with the initial reintroduction of botting bans many of you have noticed that a wonderful event occurred last Friday. Prior to Fanfest and again at Fanfest I promised that the security team would be looking into RMT as well as botting. Last Friday saw the first results of that work. I'm not going to get into confirming or denying who was involved as per policy and as much as I love to write I'm just going to break down the results of the first action into bullet points.

- Around 105 accounts with direct ties to RMT (Real Money Trade) operations banned permanently
- Between 1-3 trillion ISK in assets siezed permanently
- Around 500 billion ISK in RMT transactions reversed

It would be nice if Cryptic would share high level information, like the above with the community. While we may not work for Cryptic or Neverwinter, your loyal players have just as much of a stake in the game (a game we really enjoy), and it'd be nice to have some reassurance and confidence that these exploits are indeed be addressed, and the damage caused by the is being mitigated to the best of the developer's ability.

str8slayer · August 2014

I'm willing to wager they don't even have numbers for this stuff (and if they made any, they'd just be guesses), they're just reacting to it on a case-by-case basis (which will take a very long time). It's either handle it carefully, one account at a time or rollback everybody, the fact they didn't do a rollback indicates this exploit was live too long for a rollback to be a viable solution.

stah01 · August 2014

Ever since the fat of Monoclegate, that other game and its devs/management have really tried to be more revealing to the community. Even though it is a totally different type of game, it is really cool to see the communication they have. I'm not sure it can exist here because PWE seems very corporate and a bit old school in how information is handled. Similar to the old EQ days where players cant no anything about any changes. Not that the other game is anything near perfect but you do see a different sense of communication there now.

Could be wrong but it does seem like that. I think Akro has tried but we dont know how much he can do before getting silenced.

angrysprite · August 2014

I'd rather they have all their Devs and staff focus on their jobs rather than placating the paranoid. <-general statement, I'm not calling anyone in this thread paranoid. But surely this information isn't very important at all. As for 'confidence-building' that's more or less a moot point.

I for one am not a fan of "feel-good' efforts (why I laugh every time any politician opens their mouths, especially the current top-shop in the U.S.) - it's all spin and is nowhere near meaningful. Posting such information is nothing more than placating people with useless information for no reason other than to satisfy their own morbid curiosity.

As for confidence: only you can decide this for yourself. In truth it does't matter what they say, only what they do. I have been throwing money at Cryptic since WAY before they were ever a part of Perfect World and such and definitely NOT free-to-play. More than five years later my confidence in the company is pretty high.

Are they perfect? Hell no. Do they screw things up royally? All the time, especially with Neverwinter as compared to Champions or Star Trek on line. BUT I try to allow a little slack, too, because this whole 100% Free-to-Play thing is new to them as it is relatively new to the entire MMO industry. It's just a big old Grand Experiment for everyone. Okay so you may like how the other guys do it, but not every company is the same.

Are they are going to F*ck-up every now and again? Yeah, big time and it hurts when they do. But I have the *confidence* they are trying hard to always make things right, they are trying hard to create something players will want, they are trying hard to create what they hope will be the best, they are trying hard to keep the player-base happy.

But you can't make everyone happy, because making everyone happy is a statistical impossibility.

I've been happy a lot more often than unhappy with Cryptic over more than five years. My own confidence is pretty good. You may have less time with them, so your confidence level is low. Confidence comes from trust. They cannot give that away, they have to earn it. And no matter what they say, it will never affect your trust and, by extension, confidence anywhere near as effectively as time.

charononus · August 2014

It's not just eve that does things that way. It's becoming more common place to have press releases of that type to make sure that it's known that the games policy isn't early and often.

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/news/detail/f3e0937e67ac641f36db30fbeff3ced33db772cf

ironzerg79 · August 2014

angrysprite wrote: »

Confidence comes from trust. They cannot give that away, they have to earn it.

This is exactly what we're talking about. This is an opportunity for them to EARN trust.

mrgiggles651 · August 2014

Saying you banned x number of players is meaningless unless people also know the size of the current playerbase. Cryptic's not going to announce the size of the current playerbase.

laks0n · August 2014

angrysprite wrote: »

I'd rather they have all their Devs and staff focus on their jobs rather than placating the paranoid. <-general statement, I'm not calling anyone in this thread paranoid. But surely this information isn't very important at all. As for 'confidence-building' that's more or less a moot point.

I for one am not a fan of "feel-good' efforts (why I laugh every time any politician opens their mouths, especially the current top-shop in the U.S.) - it's all spin and is nowhere near meaningful. Posting such information is nothing more than placating people with useless information for no reason other than to satisfy their own morbid curiosity.

As for confidence: only you can decide this for yourself. In truth it does't matter what they say, only what they do. I have been throwing money at Cryptic since WAY before they were ever a part of Perfect World and such and definitely NOT free-to-play. More than five years later my confidence in the company is pretty high.

Are they perfect? Hell no. Do they screw things up royally? All the time, especially with Neverwinter as compared to Champions or Star Trek on line. BUT I try to allow a little slack, too, because this whole 100% Free-to-Play thing is new to them as it is relatively new to the entire MMO industry. It's just a big old Grand Experiment for everyone. Okay so you may like how the other guys do it, but not every company is the same.

Are they are going to F*ck-up every now and again? Yeah, big time and it hurts when they do. But I have the *confidence* they are trying hard to always make things right, they are trying hard to create something players will want, they are trying hard to create what they hope will be the best, they are trying hard to keep the player-base happy.

But you can't make everyone happy, because making everyone happy is a statistical impossibility.

I've been happy a lot more often than unhappy with Cryptic over more than five years. My own confidence is pretty good. You may have less time with them, so your confidence level is low. Confidence comes from trust. They cannot give that away, they have to earn it. And no matter what they say, it will never affect your trust and, by extension, confidence anywhere near as effectively as time.

prety much summed up how I feel about the company. And definitely a delight to see another person take my point of view, which happens rarely in this game. But the colored part where you call this information useless is wrong. I have no idea what placating means, but I do know that people want this information. Hell I am probably first in line. It doesn't change anything that we know it, but it makes people feel better, because people like to understand. And solid numbers are a lot closer to understanding than guessing in the dark. If Akro or any other company representative came forth with any information about this it would only make the community happy. And bigger the number, happier the community.

myowmyow · August 2014

Sigh. Reading those news releases from "other" gaming companies was so refreshing! I really wish the same could happen with PWE/Cryptic - detailed information, especially "permanent" bans for exploiters.

I am beginning to lose hope.

greensai · August 2014

I really like this game and agree with the OP that it would be cool.if this was done. I would hate for the people working on getting mod 4 ready felt cornered with this and got defensive instead of focusing on Aug 14.

Even if the numbers are not available or there is no interest in sharing it, an official statement from the devs has a lot of wieght even if its to say, we got this, we are going to do this and this to resolve the issue or improve it. The current statement is to vague considering what happened. A big release is around the corner and I would hate to see them try to weather it out and say, few more days they will be to busy in dragon lewt and warlock goodness to keep kicking this dead nightmare!!

mystagogue · August 2014

It's called transparency.

When you have nothing to hide, why obfuscate?

If you don't need smoke and mirrors, don't use them.

The "it's their company, they don't have to share meaningful info" tact is not a good position to take.

The bottom line is that their approach should have been a accounting of what happened, what they did and what are doing to ensure it doesn't happen again - not "because we said so..."

Just my take.

Keep in mind I support this game as a paying customer and will likely continue to do so. The Exchange issue I keep personally harping on doesn't even really directly affect me. That said, I think I have a pretty good understanding of the F2P business model so I do get how it harms others who interact in the gaming world with me.

Again, there's a simple and right way to handle and communicate this. All most of us are asking for is some meaningful dialogue.

*shrug*

akemnos · August 2014

mystagogue wrote: »

All most of us are asking for is some meaningful dialogue.

This sums it up perfectly. While Akro did open up some dialogue there is no real substance to it.

does PWE/Cryptic need to tell us this information? No but what harm can come from it? Meanwhile the benefits of giving us this information can be huge. It placates the user base who are getting tired of seeing exploiters seemingly go unpunished and it makes aware of just how serious they are taking things when something goes massively wrong.

charononus · August 2014

akemnos wrote: »

This sums it up perfectly. While Akro did open up some dialogue there is no real substance to it.

does PWE/Cryptic need to tell us this information? No but what harm can come from it? Meanwhile the benefits of giving us this information can be huge. It placates the user base who are getting tired of seeing exploiters seemingly go unpunished and it makes aware of just how serious they are taking things when something goes massively wrong.

The only way it would cause harm is if they don't take it seriously and the release would prove it.

akemnos · August 2014

I am not sure how the information requested (especially in the same format as the other MMO examples posted) could possibly be used to avoid future sanctions.

the information we would like is

Type of Bans given
Number of accounts for each ban typ
approx wealth removed from ZAX/AH etc

For example if they posted officially stating the following:

100 3 day bans
125 7 day bans
300 permanent bans
~ 22 million AD removed from game

Everyone who is asking about this would be happy. Something specific would be better appreciated than a comment saying we banned some accounts. It shows real statistics that can show players what exactly is going on.

lewstelamon01 · August 2014

Gonna say this once and only once: Discussing moderation publicly is a violation of section V of Rules of Conduct and will subject your post to editing or removal without further notice.

If you have any questions as to why your post was removed or moderated, contact one of us via PM but do NOT address it publicly.

silverkelt · August 2014

Not only do I think there needs to be a bit more transparancy, I also would like a ACTUAL update on two items that are a major impact to the actual gaming process right now.

1. DD chest bug, its just horrific and Ive seen dozens of people stop playing in my Guild alone since this started.
2. IWD drop for MH, Bracers fixed.

Regardless of Mod 4 being released this needs to be addressed.

We all have opinions on how we would fix the game, but frankly, at this time, I just want some communication, not only about the exploit, but about those two items posted in particular.

melodywhr · August 2014

understand that there may be a lot of reasons why you will not get transparency from a company in the way that some people seem to want.

with PWE specifically, these requests are essentially asking them to change policy. whether it is or isn't negative PR for them to handle these situations publicly, this is the way they choose to do business. you agree to this by downloading and playing the games and by posting on their websites as this wording is in the ToS. their privacy policy isn't set up for only people that go by the rules. it is set up for anyone that chose to create accounts and use their service.

all the data that would determine whether someone should or shouldn't be banned is internal. as a player, i do not have the right to know that information. whether or not this is a deal breaker for you... well... i've said it before and i'll say it again. this isn't unusual in the gaming world. some companies may choose to provide more information but i'm sure it isn't as squeaky clean as some would like to think. people will always deny guilt. there will always be internet stories of innocence. and it doesn't matter what some companies say, there will always be those that do not/can not trust or believe what announcements they provide.

while PWE more recently has been forthcoming with small announcements involving bans, i doubt they will ever become transparent. they won't always announce patches and bug fixes for security reasons and this is just another one of those things.

hmdq · August 2014

In general it is easier to find information about UFOs from governments than some relevant information to the consumer of Cryptic / PWE. Indeed should not be, but ... EA say so! What the community wants is no name or people hanged in public square, but attitudes and FEEDBACK! This is called "respect for the consumer" and gives greater credibility to the product which consequently means that there is more investment! just think a little is not it?

mystagogue · August 2014

All I'm saying melodywhr is that they need to try harder. They've hurt their image A LOT here recently. I'm sorry, there's just no denying that. I don't want blood. I don't want a full accounting. I want dialogue from a company that at least appears to give a darned about their playing customers. I have VERY SELFISH reasons for this.

I want this game to succeed.

Nothing more.

ironzerg79 · August 2014

Melodywhr. we're not asking for specifics on players. We're not asking to name and shame anyone, or any of that jazz. It was just be nice (per some of those examples that were linked) for a little more concrete information on what Cryptic is doing to help alleviate concerns that the exploiters are disrupting the economy.

For example, saying they found and removed X amount of ill-gotten AD from the game would be nice. I don't see how that violates any of PWE's rules on player privacy, nor do I see how that violates anything I agree to when I clicked "yes" on the TOS.

But as of right now, we have nothing but a single, non-specific post from Akro that they're "dealing with it".

melodywhr · August 2014

no.

Corporate transparency describes the extent to which a corporation's actions are observable by outsiders. This is a consequence of regulation, local norms, and the set of information, privacy, and business policies concerning corporate decisionmaking and operations openness to employees, stakeholders, shareholders and the general public. From the perspective of outsiders, transparency can be defined simply as the perceived quality of intentionally shared information from the corporation.[1]

Recent research suggests there are three primary dimensions of corporate transparency: information disclosure, clarity, and accuracy.[1] To increment transparency, corporations infuse greater disclosure, clarity, and accuracy into their communications with stakeholders. For example, governance decisions to voluntarily share information related to the firm's ecological impact with environmental activists indicate disclosure; decisions to actively limit the use of technical terminology, fine print, or complicated mathematical notations in the firm's correspondence with suppliers and customers indicate clarity; and decisions to not bias, embellish, or otherwise distort known facts in the firm's communications with investors indicate accuracy. The strategic management of transparency therefore involves intentional modifications in disclosure, clarity, and accuracy to accomplish the firm's objectives.

this is the norm.

however, what this thread truly describes is radical corporate transparency:

Radical corporate transparency, as a philosophical concept, would involve removing all barriers to free and easy public access to corporate, political and personal (treating persons as corporations) information and the development of laws, rules, social connivance and processes that facilitate and protect such an outcome.

Using these methods to 'hold corporations accountable for the benefit of everyone' was emphasized in Tapscott and Ticoll's book "The Naked Corporation" in 2003. Radical transparency has also been explained by Dan Goleman as a management approach where (ideally,) all decision making is carried out publicly. Specific to this approach is the potential for new technologies to reveal the eco-impact of products bought to steer consumers to make informed decisions and companies to reform their business practices.

In traditional public relations management, damage control involved the suppression of public information. But, as observed by Clive Thompson in Wired, the Internet has created a force towards transparency: "[H]ere's the interesting paradox: The reputation economy creates an incentive to be more open, not less. Since Internet commentary is inescapable, the only way to influence it is to be part of it. Being transparent, opening up, posting interesting material frequently and often is the only way to amass positive links to yourself and thus to directly influence your Googleable reputation. Putting out more evasion or PR puffery won't work, because people will either ignore it and not link to it – or worse, pick the spin apart and enshrine those criticisms high on your Google list of life." Mark Zuckerberg has opined that "more transparency should make for a more tolerant society in which people eventually accept that everybody sometimes does bad or embarrassing things."

ultimately PWE is a for-profit company with multiple game titles and they will do what is best for the company based on internal data and decisions. whether external influence would be a major factor in those decisions remains to be seen.

melodywhr · August 2014

ironzerg79 wrote: »

Melodywhr. we're not asking for specifics on players. We're not asking to name and shame anyone, or any of that jazz. It was just be nice (per some of those examples that were linked) for a little more concrete information on what Cryptic is doing to help alleviate concerns that the exploiters are disrupting the economy.

For example, saying they found and removed X amount of ill-gotten AD from the game would be nice. I don't see how that violates any of PWE's rules on player privacy, nor do I see how that violates anything I agree to when I clicked "yes" on the TOS.

But as of right now, we have nothing but a single, non-specific post from Akro that they're "dealing with it".

you want this, but i don't care about those details. i'm sure there are countless others that don't either. it's not going to provide me with any assurances that there won't be another exploit situation ever or that they won't take appropriate actions towards such a situation. it's fine if you need that kind of assurance, but that kind of hand-holding is few and far between. and in my opinion unnecessary.

*actually the ToS does state the following:

Your using the Service shall constitute your agreement to accept and be bound by the terms and conditions appearing in these Terms, and your agreement to comply with any Rules of Conduct posted on the Website or otherwise provided to you by PWE (the “Rules of Conduct”) and any end-user license agreement (“EULA”) applicable to our Game software or other software that we may provide in connection with the Service. All user identities created on the Website are governed by these Terms. This includes, but is not limited to, proper in-game and out-of-game conduct relating to the Game.

You understand and agree that we may access, disclose or preserve personal information, including the content of your communications, in the good faith belief that we are lawfully authorized or required to do so, or that doing so is reasonably necessary or appropriate to comply with the law or with legal process or authorities, respond to any claims, or to protect the rights, property or safety of Perfect World, our users, our employees or the public, including without limitation to protect Perfect World or our users from fraudulent, abusive, inappropriate or unlawful use of our Service.

We may take any actions and impose any penalties we deem necessary to discourage and punish any violation of these terms or any other illegal or inappropriate conduct, all without prior notice or warning. The determination as to whether a violation has occurred and who is responsible for such act is solely within our discretion, and is based on what we deem best for the community and the Service. By using the Service, you agree you will be bound by our determination as to whether a violation has occurred and any penalty we choose to implement.

mystagogue · August 2014

Chug that Kool Aid mel, drink long and deep. Only time, and customer retention, will tell.

They can lay out whatever they want in their terms of service. You're absolutely correct they can do whatever they darn well please.

What you do and what you should do are two wholly different things.

kumaluca · August 2014

I didn't read the thread but I have spent the last few day gathering and reporting accounts that are used to sell enchants gathered by bots.I know they are bots because I have followed them for the last few months.If something they are selling gets sold it's only a minute later that it's up again for the same price 24 hours a day 7 days a week.I have gathered all the handles (which are similar btw) and put them in...but no one cares.I reported accounts used only to sell enchants got from bots multiple times.The first time they went away but soon came back and then I reported them again and the knew names they were using and nothing..I think it has to to do with the economy.

I have played since day one and have only played the correct way.I farmed enchants in mt hotenow for about 100 hrs and no on cares.I have sent in the names that have been used for the last few months.the names they changed to after getting a shout and all the new names they use now and no one cares.It must be good for the economy to have bots cause I have given names and handles every single day for a while with nothing.I still play dragon warrior for the nintendo, so I could never imagine cheating that just sucks but right now...there's bots killing AH ...bots with names ..names I have put in now 4 or 5 times but they are still there.Can someone explain this to me?Can someone explain why I buy something and the second I do it's replaced?Can someone explain to me why every single handle on all of these...hold on..13 accounts is similar?

I now have a ton of names and handles all gathered in word with extremely similar names and handles..and all that are selling enchants for way cheaper then normal.You can't check these for the same IP?You can check where all the enchants are coming from?Is there anything that can be done cause this is just silly

or is this just good for the economy?

melodywhr · August 2014

mystagogue wrote: »

Chug that Kool Aid mel, drink long and deep. Only time, and customer retention, will tell.

They can lay out whatever they want in their terms of service. You're absolutely correct they can do whatever they darn well please.

What you do and what you should do are two wholly different things.

actually, they can't. there are things like laws and regulations.

what you do and what you should do are opinions. between yours and mine, PWE is going to do what they think is best for their stakeholders and their business. if that's the kool-aid i'm drinking, then so be it.

melodywhr · August 2014

kumaluca wrote: »

I didn't read the thread but I have spent the last few day gathering and reporting accounts that are used to sell enchants gathered by bots.I know they are bots because I have followed them for the last few months.If something they are selling gets sold it's only a minute later that it's up again for the same price 24 hours a day 7 days a week.I have gathered all the handles (which are similar btw) and put them in...but no one cares.I reported accounts used only to sell enchants got from bots multiple times.The first time they went away but soon came back and then I reported them again and the knew names they were using and nothing..I think it has to to do with the economy.

I have played since day one and have only played the correct way.I farmed enchants in mt hotenow for about 100 hrs and no on cares.I have sent in the names that have been used for the last few months.the names they changed to after getting a shout and all the new names they use now and no one cares.It must be good for the economy to have bots cause I have given names and handles every single day for a while with nothing.I still play dragon warrior for the nintendo, so I could never imagine cheating that just sucks but right now...there's bots killing AH ...bots with names ..names I have put in now 4 or 5 times but they are still there.Can someone explain this to me?Can someone explain why I buy something and the second I do it's replaced?Can someone explain to me why every single handle on all of these...hold on..13 accounts is similar?

I now have a ton of names and handles all gathered in word with extremely similar names and handles..and all that are selling enchants for way cheaper then normal.You can't check these for the same IP?You can check where all the enchants are coming from?Is there anything that can be done cause this is just silly

or is this just good for the economy?

if you have detailed information as you say you do in your post, you need to send that to PWE by way of a support ticket or by sending an email to customerservice@perfectworld.com. that is all we can do as players towards helping PWE fight against bots.

godlysoul2 · August 2014

It doesn't really matter what information they decide to release or not, it only matters what action is being taken. They will do what they can to make their statements appear certain ways, regardless of the truth. Talking with those in game, most of the bans are short term temporary bans. It would only be wishful thinking to believe that any of the exploited AD would actually be removed from these accounts though. (There was one individual of unknown credibility who said they were able to talk with one of the developers who said no AD was planned to be removed from the game, yet, we can rely on previous dealings with exploits as well to make this assumption). However, even if it were to be removed, I know people who were not banned in any reasonable amount of time on exploited accounts (if at all) allowing time for exploited AD to flow straight into exploiters pockets without repercussions on their main accounts.

What is the result of this? Based on this event and previous exploits, exploiting is still an acceptable activity which has an extremely low chance of yielding any disruptive consequences, but will grant the opportunity to gain an extreme advantage over other paying/working players. Until other actions are being taken, I would encourage others to engage in this type of behavior in the future while it is still so low-risk and high-reward if one does not wish to fall behind others, whether it is considered acceptable behavior or not and whether it has a negative impact on the game or not, because until other actions are taken, it will continue to have the effects it has been having.

rollingonit · August 2014

What Godlysoul says is about right.

It's alright proven, it's not even opinion, its fact; about what PWE/Cryptic does to exploiters. The economy side we'll never know (and really this is the most important part). And to ask for it, is now proven foolish by the mods.

melodywhr · August 2014

godlysoul2 wrote: »

It doesn't really matter what information they decide to release or not, it only matters what action is being taken. They will do what they can to make their statements appear certain ways, regardless of the truth. Talking with those in game, most of the bans are short term temporary bans. It would only be wishful thinking to believe that any of the exploited AD would actually be removed from these accounts though. (There was one individual of unknown credibility who said they were able to talk with one of the developers who said no AD was planned to be removed from the game, yet, we can rely on previous dealings with exploits as well to make this assumption). However, even if it were to be removed, I know people who were not banned in any reasonable amount of time on exploited accounts (if at all) allowing time for exploited AD to flow straight into exploiters pockets without repercussions on their main accounts.

What is the result of this? Based on this event and previous exploits, exploiting is still an acceptable activity which has an extremely low chance of yielding any disruptive consequences, but will grant the opportunity to gain an extreme advantage over other paying/working players.

that's just it... credibility. between PWE's statements and someone that's been banned for exploiting, it seems like more people want to believe exploiters. where's the logic in that?

i think it doesn't matter what information PWE provides. it may appease some but not others. it wasn't enough or it wasn't harsh enough. and then we're back here debating over policy and the ToS. you're either going to accept the outcome or you're not. period.

godlysoul2 · August 2014

melodywhr wrote: »

that's just it... credibility. between PWE's statements and someone that's been banned for exploiting, it seems like more people want to believe exploiters. where's the logic in that?

i think it doesn't matter what information PWE provides. it may appease some but not others. it wasn't enough or it wasn't harsh enough. and then we're back here debating over policy and the ToS. you're either going to accept the outcome or you're not. period.

This confuses me slightly. Ultimately, the exploiters are the people affected who care about their accounts. The PWE statements are based on a company trying to calculate + manipulate customers for the purpose of making money. Why should you trust the company trying to make money when you have multiple cases of customer feedback to go on? Who would you trust if you were looking into any similar matter of conflict between provider and customer with any other company, product, service, ect.?

I don't disagree with the second paragraph though.

kumaluca · August 2014

melodywhr wrote: »

if you have detailed information as you say you do in your post, you need to send that to PWE by way of a support ticket or by sending an email to customerservice@perfectworld.com. that is all we can do as players towards helping PWE fight against bots.

I have done that over and over and over and no one cares.It's clearly the same person...if you buy something it's replaced seconds later 24 hours a day 7 days a week and all the accounts that coincide perfectly with this player and their characteristics all have the same'ish handle.I have reported them over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and then was told not to say anything here and only say it online...then the thread was locked.Ok I understand and cool...but I did all that over and over and over and over and over and over.I at least on the forum was able to express myself for a second before getting muted.That's what's wrong with stuff these days, you get people that are only trying to help and mods like lewstelamon01 that are so sick of hearing about it that they won't take anyone serious....lock the thread and instead of making another thread and being a bother i'd just msg him.I did and he deleted it before even getting it and it was a well thought out decent message.Is this what we have running the show?I'm only trying to help...are we just a bother too?It seems so.I think the bots are helping the economy and people like myself are getting muted.

if that's not the case then let's see it?!let's see these bot's taken out....I doubt it ...same **** different day

*at AH checking every second...let's see*

I have a big list..who should I give these names to that'll acutually listen since ALL THE PEOPLE I HAVE GIVEN THEM TO HAVEN'T YET?

not only do I have all their name's on word I have their selling habit's all worked out on excel and the possibilities they could be different judging by the mathimatical figures are absolutely ridiculous

Regaining the confidence of the community

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