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An idea on how to help new players gear up.
shadowbunslice
Member Posts: 175 Bounty Hunter
So, TR is my main and I am finding myself pretty much unwanted in dungeons. However, I had a great idea on how to help new players out, play my favorite class, and benefit in the process. On my TR I can solo any T2 dungeon save TOS in 40 minutes or less. I can also get a party of 7-11 k people through these dungeons with ease.
My idea is this. I get said party of people through the dungeon, they get their chest and chance at T2 set piece, I get the end drop, everyone wins.
I can understand how some people don't like watching someone else do everything else, and how they can get bored. But I'm thinking there are alot of new players gearing up that are being excluded from T2 dungeons and would just be happy to get through these dungeons with a minimum amount of pain and 100% chance of success.
This is my problem - First I spend a large amount of time finding these people in the first place. Then I spend a huge amount of time explaining everything. Then, more then half the time they just don't listen, make the boss fights harder, In general make the whole dungeon run twice as long as I could have done it solo. To top it off, after the final boss is dead, one, or more, or everyone, NEEDS/GREEDS the end drop even after I have clearly explained the rules.
Any ideas on how I can make this work? Would the legit channel be a good place to go for this. I've never checked it out before. Anyway, I want to help new players gear up, and I don't see any reason why we can't both benefit greatly, but I'm tired of being extremely frustrated, and constantly shafted. Any and all feedback would be appreciated.
My idea is this. I get said party of people through the dungeon, they get their chest and chance at T2 set piece, I get the end drop, everyone wins.
I can understand how some people don't like watching someone else do everything else, and how they can get bored. But I'm thinking there are alot of new players gearing up that are being excluded from T2 dungeons and would just be happy to get through these dungeons with a minimum amount of pain and 100% chance of success.
This is my problem - First I spend a large amount of time finding these people in the first place. Then I spend a huge amount of time explaining everything. Then, more then half the time they just don't listen, make the boss fights harder, In general make the whole dungeon run twice as long as I could have done it solo. To top it off, after the final boss is dead, one, or more, or everyone, NEEDS/GREEDS the end drop even after I have clearly explained the rules.
Any ideas on how I can make this work? Would the legit channel be a good place to go for this. I've never checked it out before. Anyway, I want to help new players gear up, and I don't see any reason why we can't both benefit greatly, but I'm tired of being extremely frustrated, and constantly shafted. Any and all feedback would be appreciated.
Post edited by shadowbunslice on
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I agree it's a huge problem, but why would I spend 4x the amount of time running a dungeon with undergeared players, likely have them not respect Greed rules, and likely have a frustrating experience. Option B, run some dungeon multiple times with 14k+ group on my CW. I don't like it, and I don't think it's fair either but if I want to improve my own character there is absolutely no incentive for the former other than being an extremely nice guy.
I am just trying to work with the rules of the system, and which is worse? Being carried through a dungeon at the cost of a 20% chance on a roll of an item that is likely not even worth much. Or being completely excluded from the content and forced to shell out an amount of astral diamonds which is likely taking you weeks to earn.
And you get some kind of itchy disease...don't ask.
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A chest is the best way to get T2 gear if your strapped for AD, furthermore you get to choose which set piece. For people gearing up this is usually the reason they are running the dungeon in the first place, moreover the chest is your number 1 best bet. For someone who has their T2 gear already, the chest is essentially worthless and your really looking for something nicely sellable. I see this as a win/win for both parties rather than a case of one or the other being exploited, otherwise I wouldn't even consider it.
As long as there are unbound drops in T2 dungeons Bis spec parties are going to farming these dungeons for AD and unfortunately they will exclude and create a toxic environment for any new player. I do not think this will change unless new content offers greater AD incentives, which seems highly unlikely considering the past few mods. Alternatively, I am in favor of ALL drops in all dungeons being BOP.
However, the problems for new players would not disappear under such conditions. To a large degree you need the T2 gear to run the T2 dungeons and it takes several runs of a dungeon to get a feel for the mobs and boss fights and how to do each dungeon smoothly. Thereby, new players might have an extremely hard time putting together a party that is actually capable and knows how to run a given dungeon. By the time the become veterans at a given dungeon they will likely have the gear they need and no longer have any reason or interest in running them anymore and leaving the next generation the same problem they themselves faced.
If you want gear, just solo dungeons. Easy. Or run with /legit.
If you want to help people gear up, you're going to have to do the frustrating thing you've been doing: explain it to them, watch them botch it, and just teach them. But you help them more in the long run ... you can't honestly expect them to do it with you every time, can you? Do you want to run 40, 50, dungeons with the same group, so they can always be bored out of their minds? No, it's better if you just show them.
NEED/GREED problems ... get used to them for PUGs. People don't care if they break rules for a better chance at good loot.
In terms of gear the only thing I am working on is artifacts/enchants. I am bored of all the dungeons and generally during a DD I'll run PK with my CW for salvage, refusing to join groups that only take CW/GWF or post a GS of 14k+. Worst comes to worst no matter what my group composition is the run will likely not take more than 20 minutes.
I like to solo dungeons on my TR because it is indeed still challenging. I encourage ppl to clear mobs behind me and learn how to fight the different mobs in a dungeon while sticking together and supporting each other. End bosses I'll often explain how that boss works and how to beat them as well as good tactics for different party roles. I'll start off on the end fight with the group and if they all die I just finish the boss off myself. I like to give advice to new players who actually respect and appreciate me at the end of a run by telling them how they might improve their stats. Which wep enchants to use, how to get artifacts and where, etc.
I just think it's a shame that new players are being given the shaft on T2 dungeons. I think the elitism in the PVE community has made new players defensive, paranoid, greedy, and frustrated. Castle never certainly did that to me at one point. It would be nice to see the devs implement a master/apprentice system with tangible benefits to all parties involved. The relationship between old players and new players in both pvp and pve is not exactly harmonious. I guess the reason for my post was to bring attention to this and think of possible ways we the players can rectify it even if the mechanics of the game promote the opposite.
Sellsword, e.g.
Very good point, I'd only buy a fashion for a newbie which is my relative in real life. Or mulhorand weapon/cloak, which would help them on their progress but after they hit 60 - not a single enchantment given. I'd run dungeons with them, if they ask kindly but besides that I'd only help with an advice.
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I understand where your coming from. But do you have a better idea on how to get new players into a T2 dungeon run and have them complete it? No sarcasm here I would love to hear an intelligent solution to this problem. Pointing to the legit channel is not the end all be all either. I never knew about /legit until I started visiting the forums. Which only happened because game-play became dull and repetitive. New players are unlikely to know about /legit, nor is there any obvious way for them to find out.
There is no doubt that a group of new players will have a much better chance of success with at least one player who is experienced and capable. It doesn't have to be a TR, and this person doesn't have to solo the dungeon. A veteran player who does this is going to be devoting a lot of time and effort to this. Time and effort that he could have spent improving his own character. As long as this is the case it will never be common to have a dungeon guide. If I get friends/guildies to help me gear up a new character I pass on the end drop. When I do this they never grumble about dragging my gimp *** along and are usually more than happy to bring me along next time, and really, on a new toon, I just want my chest.
A new player would be able to run T2 dungeons, obtain 2-3 set pieces and then buy the last piece(s) for much cheaper. At the end of the day you would have less competition between old players and new players, and a much quicker, cheaper way for a new player to gear up. Additionally, you would have friendly interaction between old players and new players, because the dungeon runs would be completed that much faster if everyone is on the same page and coordinated. Overall, I don't see how any of this would "harm everyone on the server"
Instead, do the following - start on the Sharandar and Dread ring campaigns, and get the boons - at least the first three boons in both places. The daily instances have a reasonable chance of dropping decent purple items, so, grab those and by the time you have the first 3 boons in both campaigns, you will probably have a GS of at least 12K. At this point you have various options - for some it makes sense to start running PK and get the T1 drops - for others PvP is the way to go.
The point is that just starting on T1s the minute you hit lvl 60 is not necessarily the way to go.
When I am in the mood for dungeon I know I'll have to carry people, specially ******s from pvp with 16k+ gs, witch is the most amusing thing...
But I'll help when I want to do dungeons. I dont require any gs or class in particular when doing dungeons for fun... if they cant do their job more fun for me because of the handicap.
How to help without doing that is simple:
[Looking for Group}LF4M for Karru teaching run, all welcome
Then you do just that you teach every step of the way, if someone doesn't listen you don't rage, you just keep trying, and if you fail well that's going to happen sometimes.
No it hurts everyone because lets say you do this over and over and help someone get a t2 set with your system. You have now created a geared player with no more skill or knowledge about the endgame than a bot. They still have no idea how to complete the dungeon but will rage out when they fail because "but I'm geared" no one wins and everyone loses.
At this point, how does a new 60 gear up with these enchants (of which i consider soulforged to be a HUGE difference in enjoyability of endgame dungeons) when they are that expensive without spending actual cash?
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Your still not addressing why someone would bother with with a teaching run in the first place other than being nice or having fun. Such players do exist and these kind souls are to be complemented. But this is far too much to be expected from a normal person the majority of the time. Perhaps my example of a TR soloing a dungeon was a bad example and did not convey what I wanted it to. New players would be actually running the T2 content and seeing how the fights work, and a veteran guide would do well to teach them in order to make the run a smooth affair.
The current dynamic is that new players are flat out not running the T2 dungeons at all. Or if they do manage to squeak by into a party they are outperformed by everyone else and probably do not contribute or learn much in the process and the party does not need to or bother with explaining things.
A good point and i'm glad you brought it up. At this point the short answer is zen. The next best option for coal wards with no up front cost is praying. I have 4 characters and in two months of praying have received 1 coal ward. This dynamic heavily benefits established characters with multiple toons over new players as well. The same is true of artifacts. A new player is much better off getting 2 or more characters to 60 with boons as soon as possible, and this means a significant time commitment. Fey blessing enchants are a good way to gain rank 4s for refinement, tho getting them past the lesser version can be difficult but will likely pay off over time. A big problem is that this is all obscure information.
You can't get enough Zen without having a ton of AD. New players don't have it, and won't for a while. I consider 2 months with 4 characters to also be a while - and that's for 1 coal ward.
We need more options.
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Because this person whom you are mentoring will then help YOU complete the harder content, MC/VT/CN or the new dungeon in mod4. But if you just farm the gear for them, they won't learn how to actually use their gear.
New players are not running T2 dungeons now because of the DD chest bug. Now, it's just players who are already geared farming the boss drop loots.
Dude, most people in this game are selfish and not wise. You don't get any sign of gratitude from anyone for doing anything for them. Leave this idea. Have fun doing something which is worth it. Dunno, maybe try help guildies only or do what you like. Tthis idea has no chance to success. All you will get is being used as slave, if not that they will kick you in the end. PUG people are not worth any help like you propose-doing everything for them.
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To help new players. Like you claimed you wanted to in the OP. Since you don't see the reason for doing a teaching run, you don't seem to actually have that motivation and are instead just making rationalizations for selling runs.
I second that.
You seem to want to sell runs by having the new players agree to giving you the boss loot, every time. Seems like your biggest problem is players rolling greed/need.
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Personally, I might have a fun enough time just helping people out and clearing the dungeon as a challenge. However, having people appreciate my efforts or listen at all and not actually making the run harder usually doesn't happen. Whatever my personal reasons are I don't see it working as a system that could become popular and widespread unless the runs are "sold". Now people can have the opinion that this is morally reprehensible and that this would be a terrible idea. Personally, I think excluding new players for T2 content, farming unbound drops, and then selling these drop to the very new players that were excluded is much worse, if more indirect.