People whine about this "p2w" HAMSTER as if the game has any real or important pve & pvp competition. That ONE guy wasted 450$ on enchants and killing you in pvp, for 10-15 mins at max boo! or he's beating you in deeps meters oh no! OK, store might be overpriced but you can still play the game and win the game with your crappy greens, because game is easy and people are bad.
Seriously "I want justice in my game" troop, why are you not occupying your capitals and demand equality because last time I checked real "P2W" is called real life... I'm not seeing anyone going "Oh no that guy has bought a ferrari and travels faster than me, he also gets more girls! I'm quitting this life HAMSTER, nice job God!" *suicide* . You guys are forgetting you're all sitting on your expensive computers, playing expensive games which you (or your parents) paid for them and you complain about other people who CAN afford to spend more than you. The word for that is not equality or fairness, it's jealousy.
it looks like not all people understand that .... but, nice example by the way . I feel that some player feel, if they losing in PvP means they losing in the game. well PvP is feature, but not the main one ...
Seriously "I want justice in my game" troop, why are you not occupying your capitals and demand equality because last time I checked real "P2W" is called real life... I'm not seeing anyone going "Oh no that guy has bought a ferrari and travels faster than me, he also gets more girls! I'm quitting this life HAMSTER, nice job God!" *suicide* . You guys are forgetting you're all sitting on your expensive computers, playing expensive games which you (or your parents) paid for them and you complain about other people who CAN afford to spend more than you. The word for that is not equality or fairness, it's jealousy.
Yes ofcourse, you are 100% correct only not. This is a game and much like ALL OTHER GAMES there are rules, which make sure there's an equal playground for all players. Since you're so all pro P2W I understand you equally support this:
- Allow paying football teams to have 15 players instead of 11.
- Every player change on the pitch costs money.
- Paying tennis players now start each game with 30 points.
- Paying sprinters now have to run only 90 meters instead of 100.
- Non-paying swimmers now start with their hands chained and have to free themselves in the pool before they can start swimming.
- Paying political parties now start with 10% bonus votes.
- Paying citizens can now skip the queues in all banks and offices.
And so on and so on. The deal behind games is competition. There is no competition when Bill Gates comes by, drops a hundred mil and says "I win". Plain and simple.
Regards,
Kalantris
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steppenkatMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
There are plenty of online games out there which are insanely successful, without being pay to win.
DoTA. StarCraft. Call of Duty. Counterstrike. Team Fortress.
Note that none of these games are subscription games, and all of them require online servers which need to be maintained. Note, also, that many of these games enter the realm of being "eSport", meaning they are held to quite a high standard with regards to character/class/faction balance.
Free-to-play is not the same as pay-to-win, but we are going further and further in that direction with each new MMO release. It's entirely possible to come out with an online free-to-play game which does not even offer "pay for convenience," nevermind pay-to-win.
-Travail.
Your point doesn't stand for MMOs, you're talking about a whole different type of games.
You're basically saying: "French fries are a better food than burgers because I don't need to buy meat to eat them."
Of course, P2W is bad. Because it doesn't set an equal ground for players. This is why I don't enjoy sports like Formula I, motorcycles and the like: the same teams win always, there is little ground for competivity in a sport where the engine does most of the job and your odds of winning depend more on the bills you can spend to hire the best engineers. Whereas football doesn't require monetary investment to be played and it's more "fair" in the terms that there is no wealth bar you need to pass to actually be competitive, it depends on your own talent and later on, the training and preparation you can have.
MOBAs and FPS being P2W destroy the whole point of the experience as there's no point on PvPing when people can just buy an unfair advantage. They would cease to be "E-sports" the very moment they'd have a cash-shop to buy power upgrades.
The thing about MMOs being P2W only applies when you need to pay to beat content. PvP here usually isn't competitive if it allows PvE gear (other games fix this by forcing people to play with PvP specific gear, like GW2). If you needed to buy a key for 20$ to get into Castle Never, or a specific gear that couldn't be available from anywhere besides the Zen Store, then I'd agree with the P2W claims.
Characters: - Titania Silverblade, the Iron Rose of Myth Drannor (Lvl 60 GWF, Destroyer) - Gwyneth, the Cowardly Cat Burglar Drowling (Lvl 60 TR, Saboteur) - Lady Rowanne Firehair, Heartwarder of Sune (Lvl 33 DC) - Satella, Sensate (LvL 44 CW, Renegade, Non-Active)
Yes, ofcourse, but the price of these items is regulated by... ZEN. It's a triage - AD, ZEN, items which can be obtained both in-game and through the ZEN store. Regardless of how much effort it takes to obtain the items they will always be worth as much as their AD/ZEN coversion value.
Imagine a companion named... let's say The Friendly Giraffe. This Giraffe is awesome, because you can climb on it's neck and exploit half of the dungeons . Everyone wants it. You can get it from a chest at the end in one of the dungeons, but there's only 0.1% chance of getting one. It costs only 800 ZEN in the Zen Store though. Such an item would cost millions of AD if the only way to obtain it was through dungeon runs, but since it costs 800 ZEN it's price is around 300.000AD more or less. That diminishes the time spent in-game to the point it's actually better to stay longer at work and earn a little more cash to invest in the game than to actually play the game.
That's why the answer "you can also get it in-game" is not always a real answer .
Best regards,
Kalantris
Though the Friendly Giraffe you're speaking of is imaginary and there is no kind of equivalent remotely similar in this game. To say that you need Weapon Enchantments completely upgraded to beat this game is false. They help you, but they aren't "necesary". Also, they are not as hard to get as you claim. I know people who are freebies and are already fully equipped and sloted. And they haven't spend a dime: they just grinded, sold their spoils and made intelligent purchases. The more information you have, the more smart of a buyer you are and the more you can "defeat" the P2W strategy.
Did you know that by just doing dailies and smart use of crafting, you can easily gain more than 30 k AD per day? I'm doing so currently and paying myself an Ioun Stone. Won't be long before I get it, hopefully!
In your example, I could get the Friendly Giraffe in 10 days. Well, that's not that hard, isn't it?
You can't buy Enchantments through Zen. You get them in lockboxes. The lockboxes can be opened with AD and the enchantment rate is fairly high. I got 5 Plaguefires already, 3 Tenebrous. Opened about 25 boxes.
Now if we start basing our discussion in what EXISTS in the game and not imaginary pets... Or else there's no point of it, since people will keep adressing to "imaginary worlds" where everything is gloomy and sad.
Characters: - Titania Silverblade, the Iron Rose of Myth Drannor (Lvl 60 GWF, Destroyer) - Gwyneth, the Cowardly Cat Burglar Drowling (Lvl 60 TR, Saboteur) - Lady Rowanne Firehair, Heartwarder of Sune (Lvl 33 DC) - Satella, Sensate (LvL 44 CW, Renegade, Non-Active)
You can't take P2W literally, which means that you wont be able to come up with some great definition for it that everyone agrees on. It's pointless to argue the term.
That said, I can argue that it can be bad for a game to get the reputation of being P2W. Regardless of how you personally define it, NW definitely has that reputation now. Whenever the game is brought up people will very quickly call it just another F2P P2W mmo. It generates a lot of bad word of mouth and that does matter. That's also why you never see a developer admit that their game is P2W.
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mohannMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 27Arc User
edited May 2013
Most MMOPRG games publishers stick to some standards, like "equal chances" for both "donators" and "free players". For example: not allowing players to use their fatty wallets to hit max lvl of their character in few hours or to buy the best possible items in game. There are some companies that allow for such pathology - like PWE.
Usually when players realize they can't compete (both in PVE and PVP) with someone who is spending money like a mad monkey to be "best" - they leave the game for a title, that provides them with "equal chances". When majority of "free players" leaves the game - usually the "moderate" donators leave the game, too (mainly their friends, guild mates, etc). "Hardcore" payments stick to such title because they've pumped too much money into the mage to leave it. And such game dies.
Why is p2w bad? Because it discriminates people which can't afford to spend major amounts of money in a virtual game.
Though the Friendly Giraffe you're speaking of is imaginary and there is no kind of equivalent remotely similar in this game. To say that you need Weapon Enchantments completely upgraded to beat this game is false. They help you, but they aren't "necesary". Also, they are not as hard to get as you claim. I know people who are freebies and are already fully equipped and sloted. And they haven't spend a dime: they just grinded, sold their spoils and made intelligent purchases. The more information you have, the more smart of a buyer you are and the more you can "defeat" the P2W strategy.
Did you know that by just doing dailies and smart use of crafting, you can easily gain more than 30 k AD per day? I'm doing so currently and paying myself an Ioun Stone. Won't be long before I get it, hopefully!
In your example, I could get the Friendly Giraffe in 10 days. Well, that's not that hard, isn't it?
You can't buy Enchantments through Zen. You get them in lockboxes. The lockboxes can be opened with AD and the enchantment rate is fairly high. I got 5 Plaguefires already, 3 Tenebrous. Opened about 25 boxes.
Now if we start basing our discussion in what EXISTS in the game and not imaginary pets... Or else there's no point of it, since people will keep adressing to "imaginary worlds" where everything is gloomy and sad.
You're swamping yourself in pointless details, whereas I'm arguing about the concept. The Giraffe was simply an example. No, you can't get it in 10 days the "normal" way, because buying ZEN on the market is the paying way (you sell your time to people, who are willing to buy it for real money). The normal way would be to find it in a chest.
Yes, ofcourse there always will be players, who are freebies and will beat any P2W system either through grind or luck or a combination of both. My friend sold 20 nightmare lockboxes during the first weekend after launch for 20k AD each. A solid start, wouldn't you agree? Plain luck though. There are also others, who beat it through knowledge, analysis and hard work. The question is how hard does this work have to be? There's a point beyond which you shouldn't actually play if you want your character to progress, you should stay at work overtime and pay. That's when it all goes bust.
I make 50.000 AD/day even if I stay offline all day, thank you for your advice. I'm a gambler though, so I buy myself a key every day and open another box .
This thread is about the imaginary. We're not talking about P2W in Neverwinter here, we're talking about P2W in general. Perhaps you heaven't noticed, but feel free to go back to Page 1 and read the OP.
Regards,
Kalantris
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steppenkatMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
You're swamping yourself in pointless details, whereas I'm arguing about the concept. The Giraffe was simply an example. No, you can't get it in 10 days the "normal" way, because buying ZEN on the market is the paying way (you sell your time to people, who are willing to buy it for real money). The normal way would be to find it in a chest.
Yes, ofcourse there always will be players, who are freebies and will beat any P2W system either through grind or luck or a combination of both. My friend sold 20 nightmare lockboxes during the first weekend after launch for 20k AD each. A solid start, wouldn't you agree? Plain luck though. There are also others, who beat it through knowledge, analysis and hard work. The question is how hard does this work have to be? There's a point beyond which you shouldn't actually play if you want your character to progress, you should stay at work overtime and pay. That's when it all goes bust.
I make 50.000 AD/day even if I stay offline all day, thank you for your advice. I'm a gambler though, so I buy myself a key every day and open another box .
This thread is about the imaginary. We're not talking about P2W in Neverwinter here, we're talking about P2W in general. Perhaps you heaven't noticed, but feel free to go back to Page 1 and read the OP.
Regards,
Kalantris
Well, actually I had the impression that the OP was referring to P2W as one of the critics that are adressed to PWE, and hence the games they have like Neverwinter. And some contributions to this thread were specifically referring to elements of this game and not others. Zen isn't from WoW, right? :P
As long as the Zen exchange exists and a currency market, you can gain the Giraffe through the normal way. Otherwise we can also assume that commerce is P2W as well (there will be always people interested in buying AD, and the only way to gain it is through selling their Zen).
Markets don't depend on individuals, they are a collective effort. If you're not willing to sell Zen, rest assured: someone will take your place. It's just how it works. And if it was truly such a bad sinkhole (lets make some basic Economic assumptions) no one would invest in Zen, since it's not a rational decision and market operates through rationality. If no one sees a profit in buying Zen, it won't be bought.
Characters: - Titania Silverblade, the Iron Rose of Myth Drannor (Lvl 60 GWF, Destroyer) - Gwyneth, the Cowardly Cat Burglar Drowling (Lvl 60 TR, Saboteur) - Lady Rowanne Firehair, Heartwarder of Sune (Lvl 33 DC) - Satella, Sensate (LvL 44 CW, Renegade, Non-Active)
And they won't get it, because vastly more people prefer this model. This is borne out by every related industry statistic, and has been for years. Perfect World runs 30 games, 12 in North America, that use this model. In every one, the forums are full of people proclaiming that this time it's going to drive the customers away. The result? PW is second only to Blizzard in revenues in the MMO space, and unlike Blizzard, their revenues are growing.
Financial success does not equal game success.
Just look at how HAMSTER poor Diablo 3 is.
I heard about Star Trek Online being a fail before I even knew the game was out.
Yes ofcourse, you are 100% correct only not. This is a game and much like ALL OTHER GAMES there are rules, which make sure there's an equal playground for all players. Since you're so all pro P2W I understand you equally support this:
- Allow paying football teams to have 15 players instead of 11. Except there is no item that allows to you to increase the number of characters in a dungeon or pvp setting
- Every player change on the pitch costs money. Unlike football you can "change players" as often as you have injury kits. Another bad example
- Paying tennis players now start each game with 30 points ahead. No item that starts a dungeon with boss down or starts the pvp match with you 200 pts ahead, again example
- Paying sprinters now have to run only 90 meters instead of 100. See above
- Non-paying swimmers now start with their hands chained and have to free themselves in the pool before they can start swimming. Swimmers like footballers can buy better training facilities, better coaches and better nutrition supplementes. Using sports as an example against P2Win is a bad example as sports is the biggest p2win industry. Chelsea is an example of the biggest p2win club there is.
- Paying political parties now start with 10% bonus votes. It's called endorsing and politicians do it all the time
- Paying citizens can now skip the queues in all banks and offices. It's called premium queues and they exist
And so on and so on. The deal behind games is competition. There is no competition when Bill Gates comes by, drops a hundred mil and says "I win". Plain and simple.
Not that he would do it but he could buy cryptic and do it anyway without pay 2 win items.
Regards,
Kalantris
You obviously have no idea how real life works and need to talk a break from your p2win campaign. Paying cryptic is a good thing because they pay developers to make games. Profitable games means more games in the future from cryptic and other companies.
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calaminthaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Honest to god, I'm not trolling. I'm really asking because it's not obvious to me that it is the awful thing many/most folks seem to think it is.
PWE is in business to make money. A profit motive is not an evil thing. Why shouldn't they offer items of value to people who are willing and able to buy them, even if those items give the players some advantage?
The only argument against it I can think of is that it would discourage folks that can't/aren't willing to buy items from playing. But those same folks are only a cost to PWE so from a business perspective that wouldn't really matter.
Or, I guess another way to put it: what's the argument for putting people who aren't paying PWE on the same footing as people who ARE paying PWE?
casuals spent money in order to reach the same item level with players who invest time..
ergo, we can't consider this p2w but we can consider it balance between people with cash and no-lifers..
i prefer games where you have to invest time instead of money..
Well, actually I had the impression that the OP was referring to P2W as one of the critics that are adressed to PWE, and hence the games they have like Neverwinter. And some contributions to this thread were specifically referring to elements of this game and not others. Zen isn't from WoW, right? :P
Actually he wasn't criticising at all. Unless "Honest to god, I'm not trolling. I'm really asking because it's not obvious to me that it is the awful thing many/most folks seem to think it is." is criticising. Some contributions may have been referring to this game, but I was referring to the subject, not the offtopic .
As long as the Zen exchange exists and a currency market, you can gain the Giraffe through the normal way. Otherwise we can also assume that commerce is P2W as well (there will be always people interested in buying AD, and the only way to gain it is through selling their Zen).
No, you are incorrect. The ZEN exchange in it's nature requires paying customers (no paying customers = no ZEN to buy), it is therefore the "paid" way. The ordinary ways are the ones your character, mind you: character not player, can achieve through in-game activities directly connected to the game, not the outside payment systems.
Markets don't depend on individuals, they are a collective effort. If you're not willing to sell Zen, rest assured: someone will take your place. It's just how it works. And if it was truly such a bad sinkhole (lets make some basic Economic assumptions) no one would invest in Zen, since it's not a rational decision and market operates through rationality. If no one sees a profit in buying Zen, it won't be bought.
They will or they won't, it's a matter of balancing pay to win and free to play, so that both paying customers get what they want and free players have a good time as well to provide the paying customers with enough population for the game to be enjoyable. The price of ZEN in-game must be acceptable to both parties.
You obviously have no idea how real life works and need to talk a break from your p2win campaign. Paying cryptic is a good thing because they pay developers to make games. Profitable games means more games in the future from cryptic and other companies.
Dude, seriously, read the post I quoted. Guy said life is Pay to win. It's my response to that, I'm not comparing this to Neverwinter in any way, come on.
Best regards,
Kalantris
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orangerascalMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Dude, seriously, read the post I quoted. Guy said life is Pay to win. It's my response to that, I'm not comparing this to Neverwinter in any way, come on.
Best regards,
Kalantris
Life is p2win ... In your example of football: If you look at any league there will be vast difference in capital spent between the top ad bottom teams of a league. Like I said using sports as an example is bad because it is P2Win industry.
More wins = more sponsors = more money to train players, hire better coaches, and buy better facilities.
1) There is p2w where you literally pay money for a clear advantage. Like free players have 100 hps and you have 100,000 hps, etc.
2) Then there is p2w where the top end gear can only really be gotten by paying, because it just takes way too long without paying. Like if you can pay for something and it takes a free player 6 years to get, you might as well not pretend that you will ever get the item, or whatever, without paying.
With this game most people are talking about 2, as far as I know. Probably something to do with how stupid long it would take to get max enchantments without paying. Mount speed not being capped in pvp probably does not help.
When you can pay to be on the same level as people that pay 24/7, or get ahead of them, it is not really considered pay2win by most, as long as free people can catch up within a reasonable amount of time.
^This. I don't even consider the enchantment stuff here as pay to win because you can easily get the wards in game. Heck, they are cheaper in the game than they are in the shop. I've played games where it was nearly impossible to get the best 'enchants' without buying from the cash shop. The mounts in PvP kind of blur the pay-to-win line a bit though. But only because the AD cost to upgrade a gold-bought mount are so high.
Its all about a balance between players with time and players with money. In my opinion as long as anything you can get with money can be reasonably obtained with time - its not pay to win.
The Freemium (F2P or sub with micro transactions ingame) will take over.
Just look at how much more money SWTOR (EA), as well as TERA and Rift made after going Freemium.. These games developers have doubled their revenues and they don't just stop, they're still increasing at a very fast rate.
Most publishers/developers will rid themselves of the old "pure" F2P model because if they don't, they'll end up losing out to the Freemium model.
It's the perfect business model. You got two choices. Play for Free and spend money as you'd do in other current F2P titles, or you can subscribe and get more benefits through being a "premium" member, i.e getting a specific amount of cash shop currency once a month to spend on the cash shop etc, and to top it off, you don't need to buy stuff in the cash shops to unlock certain things in the game(s) as you'll get everything for free when subbing.
I've always been a subber in mmorpgs, but i prefer the Freemium business model. It gives those who haven't got a steady income the chance to play AAA titles and an option to pay whenever they can afford it, and it gives players with a steady income the chance to keep playing progressively without having to empty their wallets into the cash shops every day to stay progressive.
Currently the standards have always been like this. vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
F2P = Hey, you can play our game but in order to play progressively you have to pay us $50 a month give or take, and on top of that you have to pay even more if you want to respec (respec token!?), make a new character (character slot token!?), unlock locked boxes (keys!?), and the list goes on in terms of what you have to pay for in order to be a progressive player and to enjoy everything the game "can" offer.
P2P = Pay a regular $12-15 giver or take once a month and get everything for free including respecs, 10-12 character slots or more + + + + + + + + + + +. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
See what i'm getting at here?
"For in this modern world, the instruments of warfare are not solely for waging war. Far more importantly, they are the means for controlling peace..."
Too much p2w can be bad and can backfire if not done right. The first question that needs to be asked is: What is the replay value in this game? Well, it can be played to 60 in a relatively short time, even by free players. After that its just a repetitive grind of the same dailies and dungeons. Does getting to 60 need to be made any faster through p2w, or will that just make people get bored faster and leave sooner?
Its all about the replay value. If there is enough replay value to support the amount of p2w in this game then they did it right. If there is not enough replay value, and p2w speeds up the process too much, then they are in for a rude awakening.
Too much p2w can be bad and can backfire if not done right. The first question that needs to be asked is: What is the replay value in this game? Well, it can be played to 60 in a relatively short time, even by free players. After that its just a repetitive grind of the same dailies and dungeons. Does getting to 60 need to be made any faster through p2w, or will that just make people get bored faster and leave sooner?
Its all about the replay value. If there is enough replay value to support the amount of p2w in this game then they did it right. If there is not enough replay value, and p2w speeds up the process too much, then they are in for a rude awakening.
Foundry is where the replay value is (for me). Seriously, if they develop it further and let it reach potential, it wouldn't even matter how much P2W this game is at that point. Really throws a wrench in the equation, and will be interesting to see what kind of improvements we get to it. If it's not seen as profitable, and as such, not worth putting any focus on, then you have another example as to why P2W is so bad.
Foundry is where the replay value is (for me). Seriously, if they develop it further and let it reach potential
Authors should be able to add chests with loot, skill checks, branching dialogues and vendors to their maps. Cryptic just needs to figure out a way to make them unexploitable.
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sasheriaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 1Arc User
not to mention things like res tokens exist, which are also completely stupid in such a game.
any non HAMSTER "gamer" would agree that this is HAMSTER.
you can also PLAY the game to get AD. Use AD to buy gear in AH (which are BoE) consider the low prices of Epic right now, it is pretty much even at this point without spending Zen.
also since you CAN change AD TO Zen (and vice versa) you CAN buy stuff from cash shop at no CASH cost. This is why the AH was shut down due to the exploit because people WERE using AD to Zen (people selling zen need AD) and buying up stuff without actually earning them.
Authors should be able to add chests with loot, skill checks, branching dialogues and vendors to their maps. Cryptic just needs to figure out a way to make them unexploitable.
In the foundry there are resource limit. All they have to do to is limit how many chest and skill check on a map. I wish for branching dialog and optional quest.
the game has lost it's once luster but the game all ways been lag city where you can get up to 3000 ping or complete dc and bugs still stay in the game after like 5 years there still in game.
Wow...to say absolutely nothing of the fact that the above post is so full of disinformation (for instance, the game is only barely over a year old) I don't know where to begin, P2W discussions aren't allowed, and this thread is well over a year since its last post which firmly puts it in the realm of necromancy--another behavior forbidden under RoC.
Putting this one to bed where it belongs.
ROLL TIDE ROLL
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
Comments
it looks like not all people understand that .... but, nice example by the way
Yes ofcourse, you are 100% correct only not. This is a game and much like ALL OTHER GAMES there are rules, which make sure there's an equal playground for all players. Since you're so all pro P2W I understand you equally support this:
- Allow paying football teams to have 15 players instead of 11.
- Every player change on the pitch costs money.
- Paying tennis players now start each game with 30 points.
- Paying sprinters now have to run only 90 meters instead of 100.
- Non-paying swimmers now start with their hands chained and have to free themselves in the pool before they can start swimming.
- Paying political parties now start with 10% bonus votes.
- Paying citizens can now skip the queues in all banks and offices.
And so on and so on. The deal behind games is competition. There is no competition when Bill Gates comes by, drops a hundred mil and says "I win". Plain and simple.
Regards,
Kalantris
Your point doesn't stand for MMOs, you're talking about a whole different type of games.
You're basically saying: "French fries are a better food than burgers because I don't need to buy meat to eat them."
Of course, P2W is bad. Because it doesn't set an equal ground for players. This is why I don't enjoy sports like Formula I, motorcycles and the like: the same teams win always, there is little ground for competivity in a sport where the engine does most of the job and your odds of winning depend more on the bills you can spend to hire the best engineers. Whereas football doesn't require monetary investment to be played and it's more "fair" in the terms that there is no wealth bar you need to pass to actually be competitive, it depends on your own talent and later on, the training and preparation you can have.
MOBAs and FPS being P2W destroy the whole point of the experience as there's no point on PvPing when people can just buy an unfair advantage. They would cease to be "E-sports" the very moment they'd have a cash-shop to buy power upgrades.
The thing about MMOs being P2W only applies when you need to pay to beat content. PvP here usually isn't competitive if it allows PvE gear (other games fix this by forcing people to play with PvP specific gear, like GW2). If you needed to buy a key for 20$ to get into Castle Never, or a specific gear that couldn't be available from anywhere besides the Zen Store, then I'd agree with the P2W claims.
- Titania Silverblade, the Iron Rose of Myth Drannor (Lvl 60 GWF, Destroyer)
- Gwyneth, the Cowardly Cat Burglar Drowling (Lvl 60 TR, Saboteur)
- Lady Rowanne Firehair, Heartwarder of Sune (Lvl 33 DC)
- Satella, Sensate (LvL 44 CW, Renegade, Non-Active)
Check Steppenkat's Foundry Quest Reviews!
Though the Friendly Giraffe you're speaking of is imaginary and there is no kind of equivalent remotely similar in this game. To say that you need Weapon Enchantments completely upgraded to beat this game is false. They help you, but they aren't "necesary". Also, they are not as hard to get as you claim. I know people who are freebies and are already fully equipped and sloted. And they haven't spend a dime: they just grinded, sold their spoils and made intelligent purchases. The more information you have, the more smart of a buyer you are and the more you can "defeat" the P2W strategy.
Did you know that by just doing dailies and smart use of crafting, you can easily gain more than 30 k AD per day? I'm doing so currently and paying myself an Ioun Stone. Won't be long before I get it, hopefully!
In your example, I could get the Friendly Giraffe in 10 days. Well, that's not that hard, isn't it?
You can't buy Enchantments through Zen. You get them in lockboxes. The lockboxes can be opened with AD and the enchantment rate is fairly high. I got 5 Plaguefires already, 3 Tenebrous. Opened about 25 boxes.
Now if we start basing our discussion in what EXISTS in the game and not imaginary pets... Or else there's no point of it, since people will keep adressing to "imaginary worlds" where everything is gloomy and sad.
- Titania Silverblade, the Iron Rose of Myth Drannor (Lvl 60 GWF, Destroyer)
- Gwyneth, the Cowardly Cat Burglar Drowling (Lvl 60 TR, Saboteur)
- Lady Rowanne Firehair, Heartwarder of Sune (Lvl 33 DC)
- Satella, Sensate (LvL 44 CW, Renegade, Non-Active)
Check Steppenkat's Foundry Quest Reviews!
That said, I can argue that it can be bad for a game to get the reputation of being P2W. Regardless of how you personally define it, NW definitely has that reputation now. Whenever the game is brought up people will very quickly call it just another F2P P2W mmo. It generates a lot of bad word of mouth and that does matter. That's also why you never see a developer admit that their game is P2W.
Usually when players realize they can't compete (both in PVE and PVP) with someone who is spending money like a mad monkey to be "best" - they leave the game for a title, that provides them with "equal chances". When majority of "free players" leaves the game - usually the "moderate" donators leave the game, too (mainly their friends, guild mates, etc). "Hardcore" payments stick to such title because they've pumped too much money into the mage to leave it. And such game dies.
Why is p2w bad? Because it discriminates people which can't afford to spend major amounts of money in a virtual game.
You're swamping yourself in pointless details, whereas I'm arguing about the concept. The Giraffe was simply an example. No, you can't get it in 10 days the "normal" way, because buying ZEN on the market is the paying way (you sell your time to people, who are willing to buy it for real money). The normal way would be to find it in a chest.
Yes, ofcourse there always will be players, who are freebies and will beat any P2W system either through grind or luck or a combination of both. My friend sold 20 nightmare lockboxes during the first weekend after launch for 20k AD each. A solid start, wouldn't you agree? Plain luck though. There are also others, who beat it through knowledge, analysis and hard work. The question is how hard does this work have to be? There's a point beyond which you shouldn't actually play if you want your character to progress, you should stay at work overtime and pay. That's when it all goes bust.
I make 50.000 AD/day even if I stay offline all day, thank you for your advice. I'm a gambler though, so I buy myself a key every day and open another box
This thread is about the imaginary. We're not talking about P2W in Neverwinter here, we're talking about P2W in general. Perhaps you heaven't noticed, but feel free to go back to Page 1 and read the OP.
Regards,
Kalantris
Well, actually I had the impression that the OP was referring to P2W as one of the critics that are adressed to PWE, and hence the games they have like Neverwinter. And some contributions to this thread were specifically referring to elements of this game and not others. Zen isn't from WoW, right? :P
As long as the Zen exchange exists and a currency market, you can gain the Giraffe through the normal way. Otherwise we can also assume that commerce is P2W as well (there will be always people interested in buying AD, and the only way to gain it is through selling their Zen).
Markets don't depend on individuals, they are a collective effort. If you're not willing to sell Zen, rest assured: someone will take your place. It's just how it works. And if it was truly such a bad sinkhole (lets make some basic Economic assumptions) no one would invest in Zen, since it's not a rational decision and market operates through rationality. If no one sees a profit in buying Zen, it won't be bought.
- Titania Silverblade, the Iron Rose of Myth Drannor (Lvl 60 GWF, Destroyer)
- Gwyneth, the Cowardly Cat Burglar Drowling (Lvl 60 TR, Saboteur)
- Lady Rowanne Firehair, Heartwarder of Sune (Lvl 33 DC)
- Satella, Sensate (LvL 44 CW, Renegade, Non-Active)
Check Steppenkat's Foundry Quest Reviews!
Financial success does not equal game success.
Just look at how HAMSTER poor Diablo 3 is.
I heard about Star Trek Online being a fail before I even knew the game was out.
Money is the normal way. This is a for-profit venture. Grinding is the free alternative to the normal way. It is, essentially, a gift.
Indeed, I see your point. Let me rephrase it then:
As long there is a currency market, you have the option of spending time instead of money to gain your Giraffe.
- Titania Silverblade, the Iron Rose of Myth Drannor (Lvl 60 GWF, Destroyer)
- Gwyneth, the Cowardly Cat Burglar Drowling (Lvl 60 TR, Saboteur)
- Lady Rowanne Firehair, Heartwarder of Sune (Lvl 33 DC)
- Satella, Sensate (LvL 44 CW, Renegade, Non-Active)
Check Steppenkat's Foundry Quest Reviews!
You obviously have no idea how real life works and need to talk a break from your p2win campaign. Paying cryptic is a good thing because they pay developers to make games. Profitable games means more games in the future from cryptic and other companies.
Eh. Of course real life is pay2win. Most of your points just enforced his.
casuals spent money in order to reach the same item level with players who invest time..
ergo, we can't consider this p2w but we can consider it balance between people with cash and no-lifers..
i prefer games where you have to invest time instead of money..
Actually he wasn't criticising at all. Unless "Honest to god, I'm not trolling. I'm really asking because it's not obvious to me that it is the awful thing many/most folks seem to think it is." is criticising. Some contributions may have been referring to this game, but I was referring to the subject, not the offtopic
No, you are incorrect. The ZEN exchange in it's nature requires paying customers (no paying customers = no ZEN to buy), it is therefore the "paid" way. The ordinary ways are the ones your character, mind you: character not player, can achieve through in-game activities directly connected to the game, not the outside payment systems.
They will or they won't, it's a matter of balancing pay to win and free to play, so that both paying customers get what they want and free players have a good time as well to provide the paying customers with enough population for the game to be enjoyable. The price of ZEN in-game must be acceptable to both parties.
Dude, seriously, read the post I quoted. Guy said life is Pay to win. It's my response to that, I'm not comparing this to Neverwinter in any way, come on.
Best regards,
Kalantris
Life is p2win ... In your example of football: If you look at any league there will be vast difference in capital spent between the top ad bottom teams of a league. Like I said using sports as an example is bad because it is P2Win industry.
More wins = more sponsors = more money to train players, hire better coaches, and buy better facilities.
^This. I don't even consider the enchantment stuff here as pay to win because you can easily get the wards in game. Heck, they are cheaper in the game than they are in the shop. I've played games where it was nearly impossible to get the best 'enchants' without buying from the cash shop. The mounts in PvP kind of blur the pay-to-win line a bit though. But only because the AD cost to upgrade a gold-bought mount are so high.
Its all about a balance between players with time and players with money. In my opinion as long as anything you can get with money can be reasonably obtained with time - its not pay to win.
The Freemium (F2P or sub with micro transactions ingame) will take over.
Just look at how much more money SWTOR (EA), as well as TERA and Rift made after going Freemium.. These games developers have doubled their revenues and they don't just stop, they're still increasing at a very fast rate.
Most publishers/developers will rid themselves of the old "pure" F2P model because if they don't, they'll end up losing out to the Freemium model.
It's the perfect business model. You got two choices. Play for Free and spend money as you'd do in other current F2P titles, or you can subscribe and get more benefits through being a "premium" member, i.e getting a specific amount of cash shop currency once a month to spend on the cash shop etc, and to top it off, you don't need to buy stuff in the cash shops to unlock certain things in the game(s) as you'll get everything for free when subbing.
I've always been a subber in mmorpgs, but i prefer the Freemium business model. It gives those who haven't got a steady income the chance to play AAA titles and an option to pay whenever they can afford it, and it gives players with a steady income the chance to keep playing progressively without having to empty their wallets into the cash shops every day to stay progressive.
Currently the standards have always been like this.
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
F2P = Hey, you can play our game but in order to play progressively you have to pay us $50 a month give or take, and on top of that you have to pay even more if you want to respec (respec token!?), make a new character (character slot token!?), unlock locked boxes (keys!?), and the list goes on in terms of what you have to pay for in order to be a progressive player and to enjoy everything the game "can" offer.
P2P = Pay a regular $12-15 giver or take once a month and get everything for free including respecs, 10-12 character slots or more + + + + + + + + + + +.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
See what i'm getting at here?
~Admiral Arleigh Burke~
- Titania Silverblade, the Iron Rose of Myth Drannor (Lvl 60 GWF, Destroyer)
- Gwyneth, the Cowardly Cat Burglar Drowling (Lvl 60 TR, Saboteur)
- Lady Rowanne Firehair, Heartwarder of Sune (Lvl 33 DC)
- Satella, Sensate (LvL 44 CW, Renegade, Non-Active)
Check Steppenkat's Foundry Quest Reviews!
Its all about the replay value. If there is enough replay value to support the amount of p2w in this game then they did it right. If there is not enough replay value, and p2w speeds up the process too much, then they are in for a rude awakening.
Foundry is where the replay value is (for me). Seriously, if they develop it further and let it reach potential, it wouldn't even matter how much P2W this game is at that point. Really throws a wrench in the equation, and will be interesting to see what kind of improvements we get to it. If it's not seen as profitable, and as such, not worth putting any focus on, then you have another example as to why P2W is so bad.
Authors should be able to add chests with loot, skill checks, branching dialogues and vendors to their maps. Cryptic just needs to figure out a way to make them unexploitable.
you can also PLAY the game to get AD. Use AD to buy gear in AH (which are BoE) consider the low prices of Epic right now, it is pretty much even at this point without spending Zen.
also since you CAN change AD TO Zen (and vice versa) you CAN buy stuff from cash shop at no CASH cost. This is why the AH was shut down due to the exploit because people WERE using AD to Zen (people selling zen need AD) and buying up stuff without actually earning them.
Please review my campaign and I'll return the favor.
In the foundry there are resource limit. All they have to do to is limit how many chest and skill check on a map. I wish for branching dialog and optional quest.
Please review my campaign and I'll return the favor.
Putting this one to bed where it belongs.
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
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