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What GS means to me
doriangreigh
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 707 Arc User
I know a lot of people like to check GS for one reason or another ... to some degree it is warranted especially when something has a minimum requirement.
However a lot of T2 dungeons can be ran in blue gear with blue enchants ... sure the GS might be something like 10k or so but still very doable to run T2 dungeons with skill.
I have ran and completed some dungeons in blue gear and a purple piece or two, some classes are a bit easier to do this with than others but mainly if you know what you are doing you can do quite a lot with a lower GS.
Having said that, there are people in full set bonus gear with high end enchantments (purple) and still have no clue what they are doing. In fact they probably just bought that HAMSTER threw it on their toon and got by, not ever really learning how to play.
So to me gear score is really a small gauge as to the player, if he is a fresh 60 in blues and enchants then he probably played the game learned how to play and put enough thought into his character to make it contribute to a group. GS also tends to mean that if its high enough you can do either stupid stuff or make things go faster without having too much in the way of consequences. You can tend to be a bit lazier in playing instead of having to move around, use tactics and the like. You can pretty much stand their and hit a mob/boss thus maintaining your status as a dps dealer. Lower GS means you have to plan more and use strategy and more ideal party make ups to do the same thing as a high GS group.
If you are a high GS group you can pretty much run non optimal parties (ie crazy stuff like 5 cw or 5 hr or some other weirdness). This does not necessarily mean things are easier just means you can get away with more than you can with a low gear score.
So for those that only run with 14k+ people let me say this, there are some great players that area earning their gear (not buying) that have probably 9 - 10k+ that can run speed runs in a lot of places just fine (I will conceded that VT and CN needs to have some pretty high GS people to run fast). SO you maybe missing out on a lot of good players just because you are looking for 16k people. I get why this happens but I think people need to be reminded that to run FH, Karrundax, SP, and PK. Although in ToS and SP it really does help a lot to have a DC and if you want to dps the bosses you need some high power players to hit hard enough to get them down reasonably fast.
I ran my GWF with a group looking for 15k people, my gwf was only 10 - 11 at the time needing to get his gear set up. I convinced them to run with me and it went rather well. I knew what I was doing and we blazed through it rather flawlessly. I told them that GS wasn't an issue especially since my toon was still well above the recommended GS for the dungeon (I was in dread ring full set of purples at the time).
Its always a HAMSTER shoot in a pug even with high GS people. Frankly asking people questions doesn't really help since people will lie to get a group (either because they get excluded for being new or because they are jerks and want to sabotage others cause its funny).
Sometimes I wish we could rate players by experience after a dungeon but that system would be badly abused.
However a lot of T2 dungeons can be ran in blue gear with blue enchants ... sure the GS might be something like 10k or so but still very doable to run T2 dungeons with skill.
I have ran and completed some dungeons in blue gear and a purple piece or two, some classes are a bit easier to do this with than others but mainly if you know what you are doing you can do quite a lot with a lower GS.
Having said that, there are people in full set bonus gear with high end enchantments (purple) and still have no clue what they are doing. In fact they probably just bought that HAMSTER threw it on their toon and got by, not ever really learning how to play.
So to me gear score is really a small gauge as to the player, if he is a fresh 60 in blues and enchants then he probably played the game learned how to play and put enough thought into his character to make it contribute to a group. GS also tends to mean that if its high enough you can do either stupid stuff or make things go faster without having too much in the way of consequences. You can tend to be a bit lazier in playing instead of having to move around, use tactics and the like. You can pretty much stand their and hit a mob/boss thus maintaining your status as a dps dealer. Lower GS means you have to plan more and use strategy and more ideal party make ups to do the same thing as a high GS group.
If you are a high GS group you can pretty much run non optimal parties (ie crazy stuff like 5 cw or 5 hr or some other weirdness). This does not necessarily mean things are easier just means you can get away with more than you can with a low gear score.
So for those that only run with 14k+ people let me say this, there are some great players that area earning their gear (not buying) that have probably 9 - 10k+ that can run speed runs in a lot of places just fine (I will conceded that VT and CN needs to have some pretty high GS people to run fast). SO you maybe missing out on a lot of good players just because you are looking for 16k people. I get why this happens but I think people need to be reminded that to run FH, Karrundax, SP, and PK. Although in ToS and SP it really does help a lot to have a DC and if you want to dps the bosses you need some high power players to hit hard enough to get them down reasonably fast.
I ran my GWF with a group looking for 15k people, my gwf was only 10 - 11 at the time needing to get his gear set up. I convinced them to run with me and it went rather well. I knew what I was doing and we blazed through it rather flawlessly. I told them that GS wasn't an issue especially since my toon was still well above the recommended GS for the dungeon (I was in dread ring full set of purples at the time).
Its always a HAMSTER shoot in a pug even with high GS people. Frankly asking people questions doesn't really help since people will lie to get a group (either because they get excluded for being new or because they are jerks and want to sabotage others cause its funny).
Sometimes I wish we could rate players by experience after a dungeon but that system would be badly abused.
Post edited by doriangreigh on
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Keep in mind GWF / CW are amazing in PvE so even with a low GS those to classes destroy PvE content.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
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Thought I had addressed that in my long statement, some classes have a clear advantage here but over all I have ran with plenty of under 12k people from GF to TR and even HR and found them quite competent. I have also ran with fully geared people tricked out something fierce and it was less than enjoyable although they held their own by shear strength of gear not so much skill.
My point being is that 15k gs shouldn't always be the deciding factor in who comes and who doesn't.
You know who I stay away from, people that don't even have an artifact in their slot or who can't be bothered to at least buy new shirt and pants when they turn 60, those that have the starting shirt and pants clearly don't care enough to do group or end game content. People that have some sense to their gear and took the time to match up enchants that boosts their style of play can be good players even if they aren't 14k+.
My secondary point, GS just makes things easier and allows for more lazy style of play, which kinda points towards some peoples cry that things are too easy, well if they are easy strip down and put some green or blue gear or remove your enchants and see how easy it is.
But you are right, gwf and cw tend to have an easier time with dungeons than say a GF or TR but I have run with plenty of capable TR and GF and have found that again skilled competent players in those classes can make the run easier. A good GF allows me to focus on killing not so much teleporting around interrupting my encounters every time I try to use one lol.
If you're a great player you will jump from 10k to 15k in no time, so just be patient. GS is not perfect, but it is pretty accurate. CW 15k with greater vorpal is much better than CW 12k without anything with probability of like 80%. This game does not require so much skill tbh, you just have to know your build and when to push your 4 buttons.
Disagree.
In most cases, GS is more than cosmetic. Skilled players dedicated to this game will evolve from being idiot newb players rocking 5k gs in a pvp match and develop their gear.
No, people ask for GS because they think that it's all that matter and that it's a direct consequence of performance. They also ask for a ridiculously high number for the content they want to run because they want to zerg without having to think.
High GS usually mean that people are stacking awful stats to inflate their GS and are considerably lowering their damage. Good examples are people using black ice gear and 2 2/4 sets or even the hrimmir set.
GS has one use though. It filter out stupid people. When you see someone asking for a 14-15k GS to run a t2, you know that person is a moron and going in his group is gonna be a bad experience.
Wrong.
It usually means that someone is stacking stats (that often are just plain bad stats) to get a high GS without any thought about stat weight. There's also a considerable amount of things that gives killing speed without counting for your GS.
These things being:
A race that compliment your class
A good spec
Using the right combination of skills/spells/passives
An augment companion
Companions that give good combat bonuses instead of pure stats (those stats give GS)
4 pieces set bonuses
Getting items that have better dps stats despite giving less GS (regeneration, lifesteal, defense and deflect do not increase kill speed, although some of those stats have use depending on which class).
Being able to weight stats (getting a black ice enchant will give more stats but it's considerably worse if you already have high crit/recovery)
Weapon enchant
Armor enchant
Some stats that don't count for GS (combat advantage bonus for example)
All those factors together mean that GS is totally unreliable, especially when doing the right thing can lower your GS by a few thousands compared to someone that just want to stack it.
What I have learned is, there are actually three classes of lvl 60 players here: low GS, mid GS, and high GS.
Low GS: Has blues and maybe an odd purple, just gearing up with T1 sets and T2 sets, completes dungeons by killing each mob one by one, some of the tougher dungeons like Mad Dragon or Temple of the Spider are actually quite challenging and not always successful, generally requires a healer DC in the group in order to make it.
Mid GS: Has a full 4-pc epic set but working on leveling up the enchants and artifacts and selecting the right companions. Has only maybe 2 artifacts and a motley assortment of white and green companions and maybe a blue augment. Can now complete dungeons without needing a healer DC. Completes dungeons by killing mobs maybe 2-at-a-time or 3-at-a-time. Can possibly, maybe just barely, complete Castle Never after wiping a few times at Draco.
High GS: Has full 4-pc epic set and a wide assortment of epic artifacts and companions to choose from. All enchants are Rank 8 or better. Completes dungeons by dragging 6+ mobs at a time to one location and nuking them all down. Can speed run Castle Never and kill Draco in under 4 minutes.
The High GS players won't take the Low GS players on a dungeon run not necessarily because they are snobs (some are for sure, of course, but not all are), but because the low GS people won't be able to keep up. The Low GS players would die instantly when the high GS players decided to drag half the dungeon into one spot and try to kill it all. Talent won't save the low GS player from being pummeled to death by 20 Fell Trolls in MC all at once. But that is what the High GS players do: they aggro every single mob in MC before the first gate and kill them all at once.
The only thing to do is to work towards getting into the High GS category yourself so that you can experience the benefits of being able to do 5 CN runs in under 3 hours. Personally I am only in the Mid GS grouop myself (14k) but I can see how to get there from here. But asking the 16-17k crowd to take the 10k guy along isn't fair to either group - it will slow down the high GS group, and it will just frustrate the low GS player as he/she continually dies over and over.
I have no idea if you've actually played the game at high levels pointsman but I can assure you that what you describe is not what's happening. Simply because of one thing. The aoe target cap.
Incorrect.
You are assuming that I am making the stance of 17k GS players being better than 16k gs players.
Lets make this simple. You're wrong. It's about speed and what tactics you can use. High gs can just kill bosses. Don't believe me take a 9-10kgs group into a T2 and just kill the boss then worry about the adds. You will fail, for a high gs group it's insanely faster that way and no real risk of dying because of lifesteal.
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just no, it's not a tactic. It's lack of a tactic. They ask for a high GS because they don't know how to play 95% of the time. The proof is that when their "tactic" fail, they repeat it over and over until someone get fed up and leave. They don't know better.
Hell, those guys still don't understand that killing spiderling in ToS remove most of the healing from the boss. They just focus her because they are either too stupid to understand that killing the spiderling will accelerate her death or they just don't know better.
It's not a matter of being faster. It's really a matter of ignoring everything possible and just zerging.
GS is just a # given to you by how many stats you have composed of (gear/build/feats/pets). Youll run into 12k who do great in T2. 12k who do terrible in T2s. Youll meet 16k who do great in T2 and 16k who dont know quite what they are doing in T2.
Not sure what you're babbling about.
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emmm..have you ever experienced thru 3-4 consecutive OF that can literally destroy the whole Malabog's castle?
and actually every split CN run i made in high gs groups was pretty the same: run as far as possible - kill the tons of everything jumping in red. ye, no tactics included. pure damage.
@OP absolutely agreed on the fact there are many skilled players in mid- and low-gs segment. agree that asking for "16k+ exp only!" for T2 is pretty lame. and on the other hand ppl usually are very lazy and want no tactics or whatever. they want run-forest-run.
in case i'd like to enjoy good friendly party - i go with my guildies not looking at gs. every time i run low-gs pug i meet DC who refuses to put AS on the ground or trying to dps 1.5k power gf etc etc maybe i'm not that lucky and i will gladly make a run with your ``k gwf (if you still there) to improve my impression
Zerg is a tactic and if you are geared enough it is faster. group em all up and hit them hard. It works if you have the dps which equates out to the right stats but you can't have the right stats high enough if you don't even have enough stats, if you don't have enough stats you won't have a high gs as gs counts stats and only stats.
You may not like zerging, but that doesn't mean that zerging isn't fast.
As a 15.3k CW I did more damage than lots of 16-17k CWs.
As a 15k DC I can heal/debuff through CN/VT w/o problem.
But I don't have and don't aim for:
-water artifact/GWF artifact/banner artifacts
-stat pets; prefer % pets
-raised HP/hrimnir set
-dual/triple enchantments everywhere
-my R9s are in the stone not on my char
-doesn't go for stat raising feats w/o thinking
I always prefer experience/skill over GS when I am making the party!
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I have RL obligations and a job, so my time to play is valuabe, to me at last. If I help out, I know, that I have to spent more time i a dungeon, bc the other guys have worse gear. Thats no problem bc. I want to help and spent time with friends.
If I farm I want it to be efficent. If you spent some time in game, have some boons, T 2 set, you can have a GS of 14k+ easily. So I dont expect my mates to have perf. enchants, 5 epic companions and all R8+, but at last good gear. I dont want to waste my time. For sure GS is not everything. There are a lot of ppl. pushing their GS with useless stats. But a good 12k CW cant even begin to compete with a good 16k+ CW with perf. vorp, HV, epic pets etc. I had Kessels retreat runs, where my 16k GS CW did more dmg than all of the other players combined and there are BIS CW payers out the who DOUBLE my dmg. So GS is not everything, but I want to decide how much time I have to spent in a dungeon and one of the indicators is the GS of my mates.
Completely agree with that...in fact, let me give you an example:
My main is a DC I have been playing since day 1 of open beta, and I have a pile of equipment that allows different configurations. Now, the highest GS I can get is over 18K. However, the configuration I actually use most of the time has a GS around 16.3K, as it is simply much, much better for just about any purpose.
Why?
The high-GS configurations has two pieces of one T2 set and two pieces of another while the low-GS configuration has a single T1 set (HP). This means lower GS because of T1 vs T2, and 450 less points from not having a double 2-piece bonus.
Second, I can pick companions that give stat bonuses, or I can pick companions with active bonuses that are actually more useful for me - this accounts for a difference of 630 points.
Yet another reason I don't like the /lfg channel - most people there would prefer the 18K DC instead of the 16.3K one.
Ehm, the fact that you have been dealing more damage than all the others combined in a Kessel's run is probably due to the fact that CW damage is over-inflated at the time being (not saying that you don´t play well).
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
Fully agree. My HR PvE usual configuration gives me a 16,7k GS with the Royal Guard set. Putting on the Black Ice set and changing some companions (I use the Owl to pull less aggro and have more time free to fight instead of dodging running) would push me to something like 18k but I would be far less efficient.
But I like the Hrimnir´s set. It´s a good way to get an high basis and then use it to aim at the scores you want.
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
I see a ton of LF#M <insert class> 15k+ in LFG channel and I am often left scratching my head because if people understood how damage actually works... its more about having the right encounters and gear as opposed to having purple items and legendary artifacts. 99.9% of these people's stats are actually way over the soft-cap any how. A well geared 13K party that is coordinated will clear it 30 seconds slower.
If you are using GS as a barometer for how "dedicated" someone is to the game then your logic is exceptionally faulty... All it tell me at face-value is that someone either:
A) Spends a lot of time grinding (least likely)
C) Gets their items from 3rd party sites (even more likely)
Just sayin'
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looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
Some of it is elitism but some of it is just wanting a "safer" choice. You cannot argue that having a 15k GS player will in most cases result in a player who knows how to play and understands their role over a 10k GS player.
The Gearscore itself does not make a player smarter or better, but players who are dedicated and learned about the game will strive to develop all aspects of their game which includes gear.
If I could inspect a player's IQ, skill and experience, I'd do that over gearscore. But right now, gearscore does have a correlation to those factors and I'll take my chances with that.
If we are comparing 15k GS vs 16k GS, inspecting the artifacts and the gear setup is more vital into clueing in on who the better player is than simply going with the 16k GS player.
dungeon runs and A little research and testing goes a loooong way