Just hope for new players sake, the sinks they add (if any) is aimed towards existing AD stockpiles. Dont make it harder on new players and the continued growth of the game/population by some badly placed sinks.
Incorrect. Because the demand for wards is not driven by AD demand but demand for enchants. Which is currently going up. An AD sink may affect the price of enchants but not the demand for them. Actually no an AD sink cannot even affect the price of enchants as the primary manufacturing cost is wards and marks.
The topic here is ZAX backlog, there is another thread about enchants prices.
But since those two are connected, I'll say that increasing AD demand will reduce AH prices for everything, simply because AD is worth more.
Also remeber that the main source of wards is Zen (mostly lockboxes, which are a source of marks too) .
Having more desirable AD is the same as more affordable Zen (in other words, it is easier to buy Zen with AD), which should result in more opened lockboxes.
It is an AD sink but it is not enough. It still transfers far more AD than it sinks.
... the solution is to put more effective sinks in...
Agreed.
Here's my 2 cents.
MMO economics are a microcosm where you try to balance the game's real income streams [Zen, Bundles, etc] against in-game virtual currency without causing excessive inflation of that currency.
The ZAX rate will stay variable only as long as there are adequate and desirable non-ZAX avenues to remove AD from the game. The AH tax helps a little, but not the AH posting fees since those are returned for items sold.
As in most economic systems, some basic rules are required such as those that help to prevent predatory practices or curb inflation. The ZAX rate cap is one of these basic rules in NW's economy, without which we would very likely see hyperinflation of the AD currency far beyond what we see now. Raising the cap would be a short term benefit for those sitting on piles of Zen, but would risk collapsing the entire economy as we've seen happen to other MMO's.
As mentioned by others, one suggested AD sink improvement would be a reduction in companion/mount upgrade costs, at least enough to bring them more in line with the cost of buying a new one of similar level. This could be balanced by offering additional exclusive big-ticket Zen Market items such as companions/mounts that are only available in packages or bundles, or via Zen purchase promotions like they have going now.
Or how about some AD sinks that are even more novel, such as: a "fashion wardrobe" separate from your packs; extra fashion outfit tabs; an account "home" (instead of character list screen) where your characters "live", complete with wardrobes, gear trunks (bank?), etc -- you can imagine the possibilities here; a guild headquarters and/or skyship -- think DDO; and on and on. I would be greatly surprised if some of these aren't already in the works.
It definitely feels like there is a need for more attractive spending outlets for the virtual currency (AD), since that currency is constantly being generated through Profession "labor" and AH/Trade "sales". Unfortunately, since an MMO is by definition a closed system, the one element from a real market economy that would naturally supply more of these outlets is missing: competition. Hopefully, PWE's creativity will soon fill that need.
You kinda confused the symptom with the cause. That using ZAX is currently unprofitable is a symptom, and lack of AD sinks and therefore low value of AD is the cause.
Better AD sinks > less AD in the system and AD more desirable > ZAX ratio under 1/500 again = using AH instead of ZAX not profitable.
And as an altoholic I'm telling you that making countless accounts with 50 leadeship/invoking chars is simply not a viable option, unless you are a bot. At some point I had 20 chars, I reduced this number to 16 and still leadership/invoking takes about 1 hour daily, not to mention it is not fun at all. I cannot imagine doing that on 50 chars (plus, character slots need to be bought first).
*head-desk*
1. Pointing out that the demand for enchants drives the ward market is about the ZAX.
2. So long as pres are necissary to refine enchants and the drop rate on them stays the same demand for enchantments will mean that increased demand for AD will not result in zen moving to the ZAX but rather Zen moving to pres wards to sell on AH.
3. Since keys are BoP now there is even less incentive to spend zen on ZAX as keys only come from the zen store so the entire key market stimulates demand for zen regardless of how many AD 'sinks' you put in the game.
4. Stimulating demand for AD will only work in a temporary 'need it now' situation like the chickens. Long term your choke-point is going to be how many people want to spend money on the game because that is the only way zen can be created. Alternately a zen sale would work. Say buy 2000 get 1000 free. That would add a lot of zen to the market which in turn would add a lot of wards to the AH which would drop the price of wards making the ZAX a viable method of exchange. O rmaybe something like the radiant promotion (last time I spent cash on the game. Free augment for every new toon?)
No that's not what I am saying. It's like I don't have the crayons to draw you a simple enough picture. Sinks will not work so long as there is a more profitable mens of selling Zen for AD than the ZAX. As long as I can get 600AD per Zen I will not trade my Zen on the ZAX for 500. How do you not understand that?
Except evidence contradicts you, how do *you* not understand that?
A world to defend
A city to protect
innocents to save
"Why?" They ask "they hate you"
We're heroes it's what we do.
*patiently waiting on Paragon City*
What evidence? Please don't say eggs. I dismissed that two pages ago :rolleyes:
And this is why most people are bashing their heads against the desks at your lack of copmprehension.
You are 100% incorrect in everything you say. The same nonsense was spouted before eggs.
"The backlog won't go away because Zen is worth more than 500 AD"
Literally the exact same utter false prediction. It is an incorrect and doom and gloom prediction with no more substance than the sky is falling.
If you increase the demand of AD by offering items people want to buy with AD at a reasonable price (not the AH)...
And if you decrease the demand of Zen by taking a large portion of the cause for demand in Zen, in this case Coal Wards...
Those are economic laws. It doesn't matter what the prices are prior, just that it will regulate itself afterwards based on the new supply and demand.
The price of Zen will fall regardless of how high the Zen Exchange gets. This is just the simple law of supply and demand applied in a practical layout. Decreasing demand causes a price drop (in Zen), decreasing supply causes a price increase (in AD) and increasing demand causes a price increase (in AD).
Saying the system is too far gone for that to have an effect is doom and gloom nonsense. The same exact nonsense which was spouted before Chicken Eggs were released. I laughed and watched as a basic supply and demand did it's work.
This is not a complex notion...
The cause for the current Zen Exchange situation is simplistic in terms of economics. It can be summed up in a single sentence.
The demand for Zen has exceeded the demand for AD.
The symptom is people buy Zen items and sell them to impatient people at an increased price but that is not a cause of any problem, it's the symptom just like my head hurting is the symptom of dealing with a wall of doom and gloom that obviously hasn't studied economics enough to understand even the basic supply and demand laws.
The solution is, ultimately, to increase the demand of AD, decrease the supply of AD and decrease the demand of Zen.
The way every MMO deals with decreasing he supply of currency is sinks and this game has no effective sinks as we all look at them and say 'I can get a better deal if I use my AD to get Zen and buy this Zen item.' This is the problem which causes an abundance of supply and demand. It directly causes a lot of the AD generated to end up on the Zen Exchange which is equivocally a low demand of AD and a Large Demand for Zen.
Not people with a bunch of characters invoking. At some point people get tired of spending hours a day farming AD by invoking and doing tasks and would rather actually play the game. Some people may have fifty characters, good for them, but many will have only a handful. It all balances out as long as the players have reasons to use the sinks.
And right now the only sink people can cite as being used is the AH and that is not an effective sink...
Especially since many items being sold, even before the Zen Exchange broke 500, are from lockboxes or Zen products being sold for a profit. Fact is, it's a major cause of inflation as people buy Zen products, sell the items on the AH for a premium and then buy more Zen on the Zen Exchange.
But once the equation is tipped to make AD desirable, even minutely so, it doesn't take much to push that scale.
bioshrikeMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,729Arc User
edited July 2014
One of the biggest problems, IMO, is that all of the recent AD sinks the devs have added are high-ticket items, costing 100's of 1000's of ADs or more, What if they started selling BtA items, like dye bottles in colors you can't get from the Zen store, for only a few 100 ADs a piece. I'd also like to see other fluff items added at reasonable prices - I think some new special companion runes could work, or an assortment of weapon transmutes you can't get elsewhere, (again BtA).
I also think that something like weekly Wondrous Bazaar sales or general AD purchase discounts could work - like a 50% off mount or companion upgrades would work.
<::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::)xxxxxxxx(:::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> "Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
Especially since many items being sold, even before the Zen Exchange broke 500, are from lockboxes or Zen products being sold for a profit. Fact is, it's a major cause of inflation as people buy Zen products, sell the items on the AH for a premium and then buy more Zen on the Zen Exchange.
Just to clarify this before it is cited as contradictory...
A few months ago people were rampant about the people getting multiple big ticket items from lockboxes in a row...frequently.
This was caused because lockboxes actually do give more rewards than cost en mass. Opening a few will rarely pay off but opening a lot will result in more or less guaranteed profits.
But the issue is still that when people started to do this...
The issue still remained that there was little AD being removed from the market...and more and more demand for Zen.
The problem is still the same, reduce the AD floating in the market because the supply of Zen is not controllable. And that is done by making effective sinks be it adjusting what is currently there or adding new ones.
One of the biggest problems, IMO, is that all of the recent AD sinks the devs have added are high-ticket items, costing 100's of 1000's of ADs or more, What if they started selling BtA items, like dye bottles in colors you can't get from the Zen store, for only a few 100 ADs a piece. I'd also like to see other fluff items added at reasonable prices - I think some new special companion runes could work, or an assortment of weapon transmutes you can't get elsewhere, (again BtA).
I also think that something like weekly Wondrous Bazaar sales or general AD purchase discounts could work - like a 50% off mount or companion upgrades would work.
I agree fully with that.
Effective sinks have me spending money without thinking.
I always cite the teleport to Protector's Enclave as my example of what could be an effective sink but isn't due to price point. 100-500 AD to save a five minute walk, maybe. I'm still cheap. I used to walk in open world games rather than pay for teleports or cart rides...
But I will never buy a teleport scroll for 4000 AD.
But I will never buy a teleport scroll for 4000 AD.
On preview they added a new teleport scroll for 4000 ad that takes you to the 'exclusive' garden XD
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited July 2014
Another basic economic principle...
It is better for a million people to spend a dollar than a single person to spend a million dollars.
If everybody contributes a small amount the economy will be healthier. For instance the few people who do buy companion upgrades for hundreds of thousands of AD seriously don't add up to the tens of thousands who would buy companion upgrades if the prices were cut in half.
It's the high prices of sinks which cause so many people to not use them. More people using sinks is always better.
On preview they added a new teleport scroll for 4000 ad that takes you to the 'exclusive' garden XD
I heard...and facepalmed at it.
See the way some players and likely the marketing team look at it is in real world equivilency.
"That's only 8 cents."
The way I look at it is that 4K is one sixth of a day's profit if I play all day on a single character...no thank you. It takes me longer than 5 minutes to make 4K AD.
That's not really a problem, because it hits the right target group. It's not a problem that players have hundreds of thousands of ADs. It is a problem when they have hundreds of millions; it is the rich players that fill up the ZAX the most, not the people that can barely scrounge up enough surplus AD to order 1,000 Zen.
However, it's also a problem that the "sinks" just turn into further business opportunities, which is tied to a deeper economic problem in the game: It's too easy to make more money just by using money, as opposed to being productive in some way.
Well, the AD fat-cats still want worthwhile items; Just because they're wealthy AD-wise doesn't mean they're going to throw their ADs away. And I'd argue that there's enough "regular" folks out there that outnumber the wealthy ones, that there purchases of these hypothetical cheaper items would add up and help alleviate the issue...
<::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::)xxxxxxxx(:::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> "Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
And this is why most people are bashing their heads against the desks at your lack of copmprehension.
You are 100% incorrect in everything you say. The same nonsense was spouted before eggs.
"The backlog won't go away because Zen is worth more than 500 AD"
Literally the exact same utter false prediction. It is an incorrect and doom and gloom prediction with no more substance than the sky is falling.
If you increase the demand of AD by offering items people want to buy with AD at a reasonable price (not the AH)...
And if you decrease the demand of Zen by taking a large portion of the cause for demand in Zen, in this case Coal Wards...
Those are economic laws. It doesn't matter what the prices are prior, just that it will regulate itself afterwards based on the new supply and demand.
The price of Zen will fall regardless of how high the Zen Exchange gets. This is just the simple law of supply and demand applied in a practical layout. Decreasing demand causes a price drop (in Zen), decreasing supply causes a price increase (in AD) and increasing demand causes a price increase (in AD).
Saying the system is too far gone for that to have an effect is doom and gloom nonsense. The same exact nonsense which was spouted before Chicken Eggs were released. I laughed and watched as a basic supply and demand did it's work.
This is not a complex notion...
The cause for the current Zen Exchange situation is simplistic in terms of economics. It can be summed up in a single sentence.
The demand for Zen has exceeded the demand for AD.
The symptom is people buy Zen items and sell them to impatient people at an increased price but that is not a cause of any problem, it's the symptom just like my head hurting is the symptom of dealing with a wall of doom and gloom that obviously hasn't studied economics enough to understand even the basic supply and demand laws.
The solution is, ultimately, to increase the demand of AD, decrease the supply of AD and decrease the demand of Zen.
The way every MMO deals with decreasing he supply of currency is sinks and this game has no effective sinks as we all look at them and say 'I can get a better deal if I use my AD to get Zen and buy this Zen item.' This is the problem which causes an abundance of supply and demand. It directly causes a lot of the AD generated to end up on the Zen Exchange which is equivocally a low demand of AD and a Large Demand for Zen.
Not people with a bunch of characters invoking. At some point people get tired of spending hours a day farming AD by invoking and doing tasks and would rather actually play the game. Some people may have fifty characters, good for them, but many will have only a handful. It all balances out as long as the players have reasons to use the sinks.
And right now the only sink people can cite as being used is the AH and that is not an effective sink...
Especially since many items being sold, even before the Zen Exchange broke 500, are from lockboxes or Zen products being sold for a profit. Fact is, it's a major cause of inflation as people buy Zen products, sell the items on the AH for a premium and then buy more Zen on the Zen Exchange.
But once the equation is tipped to make AD desirable, even minutely so, it doesn't take much to push that scale.
I think the best way would be multi tiered. AD sinks are part of it. But also part of it is that you have to close the loophole that lets people exploit the ZAX to buy zen with ad, then sell Cash shop items on the AH for a profit to be used to buy more zen and repeat the process. It's a big loophole that hurts new players, clogs the exchange, and takes advantage of those that don't do the math on what the item actually costs.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited July 2014
Actually, recommending Zen Store price decreases is something that would increase the demand of Zen.
That would actually make the problem worse.
They have to focus on the other end and make AD desirable. Which it won't be so long as people see Zen as superior currency.
And this is why most people are bashing their heads against the desks at your lack of copmprehension.
You are 100% incorrect in everything you say. The same nonsense was spouted before eggs.
"The backlog won't go away because Zen is worth more than 500 AD"
Literally the exact same utter false prediction. It is an incorrect and doom and gloom prediction with no more substance than the sky is falling.
If you increase the demand of AD by offering items people want to buy with AD at a reasonable price (not the AH)...
And if you decrease the demand of Zen by taking a large portion of the cause for demand in Zen, in this case Coal Wards...
Those are economic laws. It doesn't matter what the prices are prior, just that it will regulate itself afterwards based on the new supply and demand.
The price of Zen will fall regardless of how high the Zen Exchange gets. This is just the simple law of supply and demand applied in a practical layout. Decreasing demand causes a price drop (in Zen), decreasing supply causes a price increase (in AD) and increasing demand causes a price increase (in AD).
Saying the system is too far gone for that to have an effect is doom and gloom nonsense. The same exact nonsense which was spouted before Chicken Eggs were released. I laughed and watched as a basic supply and demand did it's work.
This is not a complex notion...
The cause for the current Zen Exchange situation is simplistic in terms of economics. It can be summed up in a single sentence.
The demand for Zen has exceeded the demand for AD.
The symptom is people buy Zen items and sell them to impatient people at an increased price but that is not a cause of any problem, it's the symptom just like my head hurting is the symptom of dealing with a wall of doom and gloom that obviously hasn't studied economics enough to understand even the basic supply and demand laws.
The solution is, ultimately, to increase the demand of AD, decrease the supply of AD and decrease the demand of Zen.
The way every MMO deals with decreasing he supply of currency is sinks and this game has no effective sinks as we all look at them and say 'I can get a better deal if I use my AD to get Zen and buy this Zen item.' This is the problem which causes an abundance of supply and demand. It directly causes a lot of the AD generated to end up on the Zen Exchange which is equivocally a low demand of AD and a Large Demand for Zen.
Not people with a bunch of characters invoking. At some point people get tired of spending hours a day farming AD by invoking and doing tasks and would rather actually play the game. Some people may have fifty characters, good for them, but many will have only a handful. It all balances out as long as the players have reasons to use the sinks.
And right now the only sink people can cite as being used is the AH and that is not an effective sink...
Especially since many items being sold, even before the Zen Exchange broke 500, are from lockboxes or Zen products being sold for a profit. Fact is, it's a major cause of inflation as people buy Zen products, sell the items on the AH for a premium and then buy more Zen on the Zen Exchange.
But once the equation is tipped to make AD desirable, even minutely so, it doesn't take much to push that scale.
Eggs were, as I already pointed out, not just demand but time. To get them you had to accrue a certain ammount of AD within a limited period of time. At that point ZAX exchange makes sense. A consistant AD sink will not have the same effect because intelligent actors in the market will not use the ZAX. The simple minded will not recognize this. But the intelligent investor will act upon it.
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bioshrikeMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,729Arc User
edited July 2014
What if, for instance, they offered coalescent wards in the Wondrous Bazaar at a rate of 5% above their current AD:Z conversion rate?
<::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::)xxxxxxxx(:::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> "Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
What if, for instance, they offered coalescent wards in the Wondrous Bazaar at a rate of 5% above their current AD:Z conversion rate?
You would need that and pres. Given a 10% AH tax that would enforce an equilibrium. The financial problem with such a solution is that it would remove the incentive to spend money on zen. And money is how the game pays for itself.....
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bioshrikeMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,729Arc User
You would need that and pres. Given a 10% AH tax that would enforce an equilibrium. The financial problem with such a solution is that it would remove the incentive to spend money on zen. And money is how the game pays for itself.....
Well, the Zen store ones would be slightly cheaper in their equivalent converted price. Hmm.. maybe they could offer a BtA coal ward in the Zen store that costs 850 Zen, (or some cheaper amount), but still offer the unbound version AND one in the Bazaar as well...
<::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::)xxxxxxxx(:::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> "Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
What if, for instance, they offered coalescent wards in the Wondrous Bazaar at a rate of 5% above their current AD:Z conversion rate?
The problem with that is that the current AD rate is exceedingly low so once AD values rise then Zen would yet again be the superior currency no matter what.
Frankly if I was given the keys to fix the system I would revamp it from the ground up and make a clear distinction between Zen and AD so there would be no chance of looking at Zen products as superior options to AD products. In otherwords make both valuable for different reasons.
I.E. Have all convenience items be purchased with one and all cosmetics with the other, so on and so forth.
In short, for instance, I wouldn't offer products for refinement both in terms of AD and Zen because it makes them comparable and thus defines a blatant desirable and undesirable option based on current market values.
As such...for the idea of moving coal wards into AD purchases IMO it would work best if they were just outright removed from the Zen Store. At the end of the day it really doesn't matter which end of the equation it is in. Even if it was moved to be exclusively from the Wondrous Bazaar there would still be the people who would want to get them faster than they can farm the AD and those people would take out their wallets, buy Zen and then buy AD with the Zen.
And that last sentence is the kicker...
The ZAX relies on people wanting AD to purchase items...
But the game doesn't offer reasons for people like that to want AD other than some select big ticket items on the AH (which as I explained earlier more often than not results in that AD being put right back onto the ZAX)
So this long winded response all can be sumnarised with... If Coal Wards (a guaranteed to be desired item) was available to be purchased with AD then it would have to be separated from the Zen Equivalencies.
Well I for one do not pay zen for much and have decreased even more so, I think pet up grades were reduced say 200.000 AD from green to blue and 400.000 from blue to epic. I would prefer it if you would just remove a zero from the end of each instead I.E. 50.000 for green to blue and 75,000 for epic but don't see it happening. as for the mount training well as of now I have horses I got for gold and see no reason to up grade other than cosmetic. I can avoid or fight most things on the map so don't see the point really of up grading. Also I only up grade enchantments and runes for pets and items to blue because the cost for epic is not worth it for the price to me again remove a zero an it might be. As it is now I don't see the point as I can do just fine with out all the frills and you give me no reason to buy them. I have 4 characters who's sole profession is leadership and give me a year of doing this with noting to sink it in to and I will not meed to spend a single cent on any thing in the game. I have seen where some things in the quest line do cost AD but the feywild with cost of unlocking a malabog castle which 1) a slim chance to get a item drop which some of the characters can not use and I think not sure but binds on pick up and have to have a 5 man team or pug group. I have ran through a few of your dungeons and have to say its not to fun to keep dieing so much when the group your with wants to run through as fast as they can. I can solo a dungeon with my epic GWF now and with out really breaking a sweat, the boss fighters are typical as was a strait fight on some there over quick but the others with adds and other factores does make it a bit of a pain not fun just annoying some times. This goes back to the first group dungeon I went through and found I needed a key but looked and saw I had one for the daily dungeon, I think it is different than the one I needed for the one dungeon in ice spire so could not open chest. After which I went thought the caverns of madness the one with the abolith, I died because the plat form fell in and did not know it was going to do this and another also died but the remainder finished it did not get the chest at the end of that as well. I think its dumb to have to buy a key to unlock a chest at the end of a dungeon that the sole purpose of it to get to the end loot. A lot of things in the game just irks me, you gain items from creatures at low levels that are some what useful, at higher levels they become less and less so until epic 60 when you get blue drops for 60 that no one ever uses because you need a gear score that is 9000 or more. So what do I do with them sale them for gold because no other person will buy them I can only put so many on my pets. So now I am sitting with over 40 gold as of right now, with nothing to spend it on but maybe healing potions. I have taken to selling all the gems I get for AD as do not do any up grading with them not worth it, now most of my characters I have 4 have over 100,000 AD this is less than a bout 2 or 3 months.
1) lower the cost of pet up grades remove a zero and it will cause me to spend as well as mount up grades the same way. Weapon transmute cost too much as much as I would love to do it for some of my guys I will just suffer with it "my dwarf kept using his axe because the sword was better but did not want a sword, that is untill I got an epic axe from the ice spire "
2) different color dyes would be nice for AD or weapon types like axes, war hammers, urgrosh cool skull head maces, ect... also for pact blades and CW orbs too.
How about putting a cap on the amount of zen that can be ordered using the exchange at once per account? so maybe 5k to 10k zen maximum per account and as soon as the order is filled you can order more ?it would be very unpopular but I think anything they do to try to gain control over the exchange will probably be unpopular , earlier it was up to a 7.5 million backlog and growing , something needs to be done.
Frankly if I was given the keys to fix the system I would revamp it from the ground up and make a clear distinction between Zen and AD so there would be no chance of looking at Zen products as superior options to AD products. In otherwords make both valuable for different reasons.
[...]
In short, for instance, I wouldn't offer products for refinement both in terms of AD and Zen because it makes them comparable and thus defines a blatant desirable and undesirable option based on current market values.
You pretty much nailed it right on the head. I'd just go even one step further: they need to introduce more items that are inter-dependable, like now with the Wards and the Marks of Potency. Without Marks, the Wards are pretty much useless and vice versa. So in this instance, Cryptic/PWE actually got it just right IMHO. There is a need for ZEN (Wards) and AD (Marks). They should create more such relationships.
Just as an example:
Make all the mounts that can be bought with gold untrainable. Only ZEN bought mounts will be trainable, BUT they will all be green (for every character you have). You want them to become blue or purple? Just buy the appropriate mount training tomes (for each character separately, so that you can choose if you want to have this done on just one character or on all of them).
Same can be done with companions. White ones are untrainable, only greens can be bought (only with ZEN, remove all other options of obtaining a companion). Upgrading a companion will cost you AD by buying the right training tome.
Of course for both examples they'd have to revamp the whole system and that's not feasible, especially as everyone will cry foul if they'd retcon it and others will cry out if they change it mid-game. But I think my point is clear. They just have to find new ways to introduce items that are dependent on both a ZEN-purchase (with reasonable prices!!!) and a (or multiple) AD-purchase(s). This way they will create a lasting demand for ZEN as well as AD, without one of them becoming the superior currency.
As it stands now there's simply (almost) nothing worth buying with AD except for ZEN, as the ZEN store offers much more "value for money" (best example I can think of is the Stormraider Clydesdale, a purple mount for all characters at 2500 ZEN or 1,250,000 AD (disregarding any discounts), while Mount Training II and III will set you back 2,832,000 AD just for one character).
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flambridgeMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 191Arc User
edited July 2014
I just open a topic on Rituals, I think is extremely viable measure (with the system and with the lore) and will meet with you spoke, rvdvelden.
Rituals and mechanics alike let all coins equally strong, since "no one could do anything constructive without the three."
This can be implemented easily, I'm a programmer and I know this not an impossible labor (since they can be transferred to merery HUDs within Neverwinter).
And any proposal must take into regard "the labor she gives to implement."
How about putting a cap on the amount of zen that can be ordered using the exchange at once per account? so maybe 5k to 10k zen maximum per account and as soon as the order is filled you can order more ?it would be very unpopular but I think anything they do to try to gain control over the exchange will probably be unpopular , earlier it was up to a 7.5 million backlog and growing , something needs to be done.
There is a cap of 5 transactions listed at a time. A cap of 5-10k zen would be crappy though. You need 15k just to make 1 perfect enchantment. If you want 2 then you already have reached the transfer cap.
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khimera906Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 898Arc User
Just as an example:
Make all the mounts that can be bought with gold untrainable. Only ZEN bought mounts will be trainable, BUT they will all be green (for every character you have). You want them to become blue or purple? Just buy the appropriate mount training tomes (for each character separately, so that you can choose if you want to have this done on just one character or on all of them).
Same can be done with companions. White ones are untrainable, only greens can be bought (only with ZEN, remove all other options of obtaining a companion). Upgrading a companion will cost you AD by buying the right training tome.
That is a horrible idea. It takes away from the variety, and when you take away stuff instead of adding you're doing it wrong.
We have a wide variety of mounts, but we see players using the same tired Stormrider Clydesdale, just because it's convenient. I wanna ride my awesome Shadow Wolf mount or the Armored Boar on my dwarven GF, and I should be able to upgrade them, but for a reasonable fee. Now, I will never upgrade them, and it's not because I don't have the AD, but because it feels wrong to do it.
Same with Companions. We have such a good variety, and we love many of them even if they are <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, but hesitate to upgrade them because of the crazy fees. I am ashamed to admit it, but I upgrade my Fawn of Shiallia to blue quality. I died a little inside when I did it, but I wanted that second ring slot to be available.
We need more variety and options to customize, and they could turn that into AD sinks, but well though out sinks, not intimidating paywalls that the majority of the players won't even touch.
I hate dancing with Lady Luck. She always steps on my toes.
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Fox Stevenson - Sandblast
Oh Wonder - Without You
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
- Dylan Thomas
The topic here is ZAX backlog, there is another thread about enchants prices.
But since those two are connected, I'll say that increasing AD demand will reduce AH prices for everything, simply because AD is worth more.
Also remeber that the main source of wards is Zen (mostly lockboxes, which are a source of marks too) .
Having more desirable AD is the same as more affordable Zen (in other words, it is easier to buy Zen with AD), which should result in more opened lockboxes.
Agreed.
Here's my 2 cents.
MMO economics are a microcosm where you try to balance the game's real income streams [Zen, Bundles, etc] against in-game virtual currency without causing excessive inflation of that currency.
The ZAX rate will stay variable only as long as there are adequate and desirable non-ZAX avenues to remove AD from the game. The AH tax helps a little, but not the AH posting fees since those are returned for items sold.
As in most economic systems, some basic rules are required such as those that help to prevent predatory practices or curb inflation. The ZAX rate cap is one of these basic rules in NW's economy, without which we would very likely see hyperinflation of the AD currency far beyond what we see now. Raising the cap would be a short term benefit for those sitting on piles of Zen, but would risk collapsing the entire economy as we've seen happen to other MMO's.
As mentioned by others, one suggested AD sink improvement would be a reduction in companion/mount upgrade costs, at least enough to bring them more in line with the cost of buying a new one of similar level. This could be balanced by offering additional exclusive big-ticket Zen Market items such as companions/mounts that are only available in packages or bundles, or via Zen purchase promotions like they have going now.
Or how about some AD sinks that are even more novel, such as: a "fashion wardrobe" separate from your packs; extra fashion outfit tabs; an account "home" (instead of character list screen) where your characters "live", complete with wardrobes, gear trunks (bank?), etc -- you can imagine the possibilities here; a guild headquarters and/or skyship -- think DDO; and on and on. I would be greatly surprised if some of these aren't already in the works.
It definitely feels like there is a need for more attractive spending outlets for the virtual currency (AD), since that currency is constantly being generated through Profession "labor" and AH/Trade "sales". Unfortunately, since an MMO is by definition a closed system, the one element from a real market economy that would naturally supply more of these outlets is missing: competition. Hopefully, PWE's creativity will soon fill that need.
*head-desk*
1. Pointing out that the demand for enchants drives the ward market is about the ZAX.
2. So long as pres are necissary to refine enchants and the drop rate on them stays the same demand for enchantments will mean that increased demand for AD will not result in zen moving to the ZAX but rather Zen moving to pres wards to sell on AH.
3. Since keys are BoP now there is even less incentive to spend zen on ZAX as keys only come from the zen store so the entire key market stimulates demand for zen regardless of how many AD 'sinks' you put in the game.
4. Stimulating demand for AD will only work in a temporary 'need it now' situation like the chickens. Long term your choke-point is going to be how many people want to spend money on the game because that is the only way zen can be created. Alternately a zen sale would work. Say buy 2000 get 1000 free. That would add a lot of zen to the market which in turn would add a lot of wards to the AH which would drop the price of wards making the ZAX a viable method of exchange. O rmaybe something like the radiant promotion (last time I spent cash on the game. Free augment for every new toon?)
Except evidence contradicts you, how do *you* not understand that?
A city to protect
innocents to save
"Why?" They ask "they hate you"
We're heroes it's what we do.
*patiently waiting on Paragon City*
What evidence? Please don't say eggs. I dismissed that two pages ago :rolleyes:
And this is why most people are bashing their heads against the desks at your lack of copmprehension.
You are 100% incorrect in everything you say. The same nonsense was spouted before eggs.
"The backlog won't go away because Zen is worth more than 500 AD"
Literally the exact same utter false prediction. It is an incorrect and doom and gloom prediction with no more substance than the sky is falling.
If you increase the demand of AD by offering items people want to buy with AD at a reasonable price (not the AH)...
And if you decrease the demand of Zen by taking a large portion of the cause for demand in Zen, in this case Coal Wards...
Those are economic laws. It doesn't matter what the prices are prior, just that it will regulate itself afterwards based on the new supply and demand.
The price of Zen will fall regardless of how high the Zen Exchange gets. This is just the simple law of supply and demand applied in a practical layout. Decreasing demand causes a price drop (in Zen), decreasing supply causes a price increase (in AD) and increasing demand causes a price increase (in AD).
Saying the system is too far gone for that to have an effect is doom and gloom nonsense. The same exact nonsense which was spouted before Chicken Eggs were released. I laughed and watched as a basic supply and demand did it's work.
This is not a complex notion...
The cause for the current Zen Exchange situation is simplistic in terms of economics. It can be summed up in a single sentence.
The demand for Zen has exceeded the demand for AD.
The symptom is people buy Zen items and sell them to impatient people at an increased price but that is not a cause of any problem, it's the symptom just like my head hurting is the symptom of dealing with a wall of doom and gloom that obviously hasn't studied economics enough to understand even the basic supply and demand laws.
The solution is, ultimately, to increase the demand of AD, decrease the supply of AD and decrease the demand of Zen.
The way every MMO deals with decreasing he supply of currency is sinks and this game has no effective sinks as we all look at them and say 'I can get a better deal if I use my AD to get Zen and buy this Zen item.' This is the problem which causes an abundance of supply and demand. It directly causes a lot of the AD generated to end up on the Zen Exchange which is equivocally a low demand of AD and a Large Demand for Zen.
Not people with a bunch of characters invoking. At some point people get tired of spending hours a day farming AD by invoking and doing tasks and would rather actually play the game. Some people may have fifty characters, good for them, but many will have only a handful. It all balances out as long as the players have reasons to use the sinks.
And right now the only sink people can cite as being used is the AH and that is not an effective sink...
Especially since many items being sold, even before the Zen Exchange broke 500, are from lockboxes or Zen products being sold for a profit. Fact is, it's a major cause of inflation as people buy Zen products, sell the items on the AH for a premium and then buy more Zen on the Zen Exchange.
But once the equation is tipped to make AD desirable, even minutely so, it doesn't take much to push that scale.
I also think that something like weekly Wondrous Bazaar sales or general AD purchase discounts could work - like a 50% off mount or companion upgrades would work.
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
Just to clarify this before it is cited as contradictory...
A few months ago people were rampant about the people getting multiple big ticket items from lockboxes in a row...frequently.
This was caused because lockboxes actually do give more rewards than cost en mass. Opening a few will rarely pay off but opening a lot will result in more or less guaranteed profits.
But the issue is still that when people started to do this...
The issue still remained that there was little AD being removed from the market...and more and more demand for Zen.
The problem is still the same, reduce the AD floating in the market because the supply of Zen is not controllable. And that is done by making effective sinks be it adjusting what is currently there or adding new ones.
I agree fully with that.
Effective sinks have me spending money without thinking.
I always cite the teleport to Protector's Enclave as my example of what could be an effective sink but isn't due to price point. 100-500 AD to save a five minute walk, maybe. I'm still cheap. I used to walk in open world games rather than pay for teleports or cart rides...
But I will never buy a teleport scroll for 4000 AD.
Cheap sinks are effective sinks.
On preview they added a new teleport scroll for 4000 ad that takes you to the 'exclusive' garden XD
It is better for a million people to spend a dollar than a single person to spend a million dollars.
If everybody contributes a small amount the economy will be healthier. For instance the few people who do buy companion upgrades for hundreds of thousands of AD seriously don't add up to the tens of thousands who would buy companion upgrades if the prices were cut in half.
It's the high prices of sinks which cause so many people to not use them. More people using sinks is always better.
I heard...and facepalmed at it.
See the way some players and likely the marketing team look at it is in real world equivilency.
"That's only 8 cents."
The way I look at it is that 4K is one sixth of a day's profit if I play all day on a single character...no thank you. It takes me longer than 5 minutes to make 4K AD.
Well, the AD fat-cats still want worthwhile items; Just because they're wealthy AD-wise doesn't mean they're going to throw their ADs away. And I'd argue that there's enough "regular" folks out there that outnumber the wealthy ones, that there purchases of these hypothetical cheaper items would add up and help alleviate the issue...
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
I think the best way would be multi tiered. AD sinks are part of it. But also part of it is that you have to close the loophole that lets people exploit the ZAX to buy zen with ad, then sell Cash shop items on the AH for a profit to be used to buy more zen and repeat the process. It's a big loophole that hurts new players, clogs the exchange, and takes advantage of those that don't do the math on what the item actually costs.
That would actually make the problem worse.
They have to focus on the other end and make AD desirable. Which it won't be so long as people see Zen as superior currency.
Eggs were, as I already pointed out, not just demand but time. To get them you had to accrue a certain ammount of AD within a limited period of time. At that point ZAX exchange makes sense. A consistant AD sink will not have the same effect because intelligent actors in the market will not use the ZAX. The simple minded will not recognize this. But the intelligent investor will act upon it.
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
You would need that and pres. Given a 10% AH tax that would enforce an equilibrium. The financial problem with such a solution is that it would remove the incentive to spend money on zen. And money is how the game pays for itself.....
Well, the Zen store ones would be slightly cheaper in their equivalent converted price. Hmm.. maybe they could offer a BtA coal ward in the Zen store that costs 850 Zen, (or some cheaper amount), but still offer the unbound version AND one in the Bazaar as well...
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
The problem with that is that the current AD rate is exceedingly low so once AD values rise then Zen would yet again be the superior currency no matter what.
Frankly if I was given the keys to fix the system I would revamp it from the ground up and make a clear distinction between Zen and AD so there would be no chance of looking at Zen products as superior options to AD products. In otherwords make both valuable for different reasons.
I.E. Have all convenience items be purchased with one and all cosmetics with the other, so on and so forth.
In short, for instance, I wouldn't offer products for refinement both in terms of AD and Zen because it makes them comparable and thus defines a blatant desirable and undesirable option based on current market values.
As such...for the idea of moving coal wards into AD purchases IMO it would work best if they were just outright removed from the Zen Store. At the end of the day it really doesn't matter which end of the equation it is in. Even if it was moved to be exclusively from the Wondrous Bazaar there would still be the people who would want to get them faster than they can farm the AD and those people would take out their wallets, buy Zen and then buy AD with the Zen.
And that last sentence is the kicker...
The ZAX relies on people wanting AD to purchase items...
But the game doesn't offer reasons for people like that to want AD other than some select big ticket items on the AH (which as I explained earlier more often than not results in that AD being put right back onto the ZAX)
So this long winded response all can be sumnarised with...
If Coal Wards (a guaranteed to be desired item) was available to be purchased with AD then it would have to be separated from the Zen Equivalencies.
1) lower the cost of pet up grades remove a zero and it will cause me to spend as well as mount up grades the same way. Weapon transmute cost too much as much as I would love to do it for some of my guys I will just suffer with it "my dwarf kept using his axe because the sword was better but did not want a sword, that is untill I got an epic axe from the ice spire "
2) different color dyes would be nice for AD or weapon types like axes, war hammers, urgrosh cool skull head maces, ect... also for pact blades and CW orbs too.
Just as an example:
Make all the mounts that can be bought with gold untrainable. Only ZEN bought mounts will be trainable, BUT they will all be green (for every character you have). You want them to become blue or purple? Just buy the appropriate mount training tomes (for each character separately, so that you can choose if you want to have this done on just one character or on all of them).
Same can be done with companions. White ones are untrainable, only greens can be bought (only with ZEN, remove all other options of obtaining a companion). Upgrading a companion will cost you AD by buying the right training tome.
Of course for both examples they'd have to revamp the whole system and that's not feasible, especially as everyone will cry foul if they'd retcon it and others will cry out if they change it mid-game. But I think my point is clear. They just have to find new ways to introduce items that are dependent on both a ZEN-purchase (with reasonable prices!!!) and a (or multiple) AD-purchase(s). This way they will create a lasting demand for ZEN as well as AD, without one of them becoming the superior currency.
As it stands now there's simply (almost) nothing worth buying with AD except for ZEN, as the ZEN store offers much more "value for money" (best example I can think of is the Stormraider Clydesdale, a purple mount for all characters at 2500 ZEN or 1,250,000 AD (disregarding any discounts), while Mount Training II and III will set you back 2,832,000 AD just for one character).
Rituals and mechanics alike let all coins equally strong, since "no one could do anything constructive without the three."
This can be implemented easily, I'm a programmer and I know this not an impossible labor (since they can be transferred to merery HUDs within Neverwinter).
And any proposal must take into regard "the labor she gives to implement."
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?717411-Rituals-proposed-to-help-the-economy
There is a cap of 5 transactions listed at a time. A cap of 5-10k zen would be crappy though. You need 15k just to make 1 perfect enchantment. If you want 2 then you already have reached the transfer cap.
We have a wide variety of mounts, but we see players using the same tired Stormrider Clydesdale, just because it's convenient. I wanna ride my awesome Shadow Wolf mount or the Armored Boar on my dwarven GF, and I should be able to upgrade them, but for a reasonable fee. Now, I will never upgrade them, and it's not because I don't have the AD, but because it feels wrong to do it.
Same with Companions. We have such a good variety, and we love many of them even if they are <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, but hesitate to upgrade them because of the crazy fees. I am ashamed to admit it, but I upgrade my Fawn of Shiallia to blue quality. I died a little inside when I did it, but I wanted that second ring slot to be available.
We need more variety and options to customize, and they could turn that into AD sinks, but well though out sinks, not intimidating paywalls that the majority of the players won't even touch.