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Cut the CC out of pvp. This is getting stupid.

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  • charononuscharononus Member Posts: 5,715 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    aulduron wrote: »
    Going by D&D, both wizards and clerics should be high damage, high control. (FYI damage=control). In the Forgotten Realms, wizards can wipe out armies.

    This is the truth, in DnD a prepared high level spellcaster is an unparalleled engine of destruction.
  • lisaxxiilisaxxii Member Posts: 207 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2014
    hquadros wrote: »
    what should be officially extinct this game is PVP since it was not developed for this purpose! is difficult to please Greeks and Trojans! the only thing you can try to "balance" is chars cause confusion about confusion. my opinion.

    Thank you sir that was quite helpful! I think PvE should be extinct! Get rid of it, the content requires no planning, no skill, and no gear, what is the point? Let's take this fantastic combat system and create content that can take advantage of it! *cough* PvP *cough*

    **i do not actually believe this! I think both PvE and PvP should have a place in every MMO. I am simply pointing out the absurdity of your statement. My opinion.
    brun2000 wrote: »
    IK, but how do you plan to balance PVE and PVP at the same time? If PVE is too strong, you nerf the class, PVP is affected... GG
    The way this game was introduced to PVP is made wrongly! Every skill should have a PVE and a PVP Stat!

    Tenacity? Which was a fail. PvP was fine, PvE was ok. The problem was that PvE players would go into PvP with the same gear they did PvE in. Which is fine! However the most difficult PvE content required a GS of around 10k (less would be fine, but at 10k you could tear through it pretty easily). PvE players entered PvP, and instead of one shoting everything like they do in dungeons, they got utterly destroyed by people who wore gear that was good for PvP (essentially just different enchants at higher ranks)

    Also, the PvE in this game requires nothing except moving out of red circles and cycling your encounters. PvP requires more thought, more movement, and MUCH MUCH more battlefield awareness, so they did do not do so well, hence the many many bitter PvE players who flood into every PvP thread to inform us poor ignorant PvP players that this game should not include the content we enjoy because they do not like it.

    AND FINALLY:
    ysil6969 wrote: »
    There is WAY to much cc in pvp. A fight pretty much amounts to two classes stunlocking you and focusing you down. Or you and another teammate stunlocks someone and focuses them down. It's stupid. There's no gameplay there, it's all just cc and pound. Imo this makes pvp really really boring.

    CC makes PvP. Without CC there are no tactics, no thought, no skill. It is needed, without it PvP would not be nearly as popular as it is.

    I know that's what the PvE/RP crowd wants (in general it seems) but that's too bad.

    If you do not PvP..... GET OUT OF THIS THREAD PLEASE. This is a PvP thread, please STOP trying to derail it with your anti-PvP rants.

    We don't troll PvE threads, please, kindly, show us the same curtesy.

    Thanks!
    Enemy Team
  • nightstalkornightstalkor Member Posts: 154 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Ok. to all and sundry... saying that CW's have any appreciable CC is bunk. It's BS. You're smoking illegal substances. I should know, my most played PvP toon is a CW. Basically because I'm a glutton for punishment. And I love my CW in PvE, although recently I've been finding that my GWF is more effective in PvE. Playing PvP has made me a Better PvE'r, and has really shown me the real weaknesses and strengths of various classes.

    IF MY CW HAD real CC, that CC would work ALL THE TIME. As in it would be UNBLOCKABLE, UNSTOPPABLE, FULL DURATION every time. Irregardless of WHATEVER special abilities or defenses other players or Mobs have. To be a CW means that you should be the ULTIMATE MASTER of all things controlling. And that is the one change that the devs NEED to make to CW's to create some game balance.

    There's others, like increasing the blink distance to 35-40 feet so maybe I could actually break contact w/ a GF or GWF for a couple of secs so I might be able to hurt them instead of being a stun locked rag doll. Please notice I don't say KILL, because w/o that CC change and about 30-50% more damage, actually killing a GWF or GF in my power bracket by MYSELF is unlikely to say the least. That w/ me running a 12.3 K Gear score, btw, and most of my kills are other CW's, HR's and the occasional TR. It almost always takes two or more players to take down a decently played and built GF.

    Another STRONG suggestion is changing Shield into something useful like Stone Skin or Mirror Images. Yes, classic D&D spells that are perfect fits for the CW archtype. I mean, seriously, if a mob illusionist can create mirror images, so should a CW. And hey, a CW's Mirrors should have some sort of damage output, or add a hit point bonus. Something that makes them USEFUL instead of an adornment. Something that FORCES an enemy player to kill the images BEFORE attacking the CW.

    Game balance is really the problem here. I fully agree w/ others here that CW's need more defense, more damage output, and as I just said, Ironclad <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> CC's. After all, the class is CALLED Control Wizards. So why is it that all of MY control effects are USELESS against EVERY other class in PvP? The introduction of tenacity has pretty much totally screwed over CW's. We live or MORE OFTEN DIE on our CC abilities. It's just so fun for me as a CW to have a GF jump to me and then kill me in 5 secs or so as I AM STUN LOCKED or prone locked or whatever you want to call it. I call it cheap BS. I am a CW. I should be able to CC any other class to death.

    Game balance would mean that we would see more Clerics and GF's in PvP as well. Mind you, I'm really not sure what is required to fix those classes. More damage for the cleric is pretty obvious, I've killed enough of them in my various alt roles to nail that one down. Personally I don't have either class in my stable, while I DO have a HR, GWF, and a TR. If you can't kill em, join em!

    Oh, and the CW fix needs to happen BEFORE the devs add the so-called Scourge Wizard. Otherwise, I predict here and now that CW's will become a dying breed after that class is introduced. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me at all if new CW's stop being created w/in a month of the Scourge Wizard's dayview.

    Two more things.... If any DEV or ANYONE ELSE doubts that CW's, at the very least, NEED TO BE BUFFED, i.e. more damage, better blink, CC improvement, etc, I invite YOU to take a close look at the PvP leaderboards. Like someone else in this thread said, PvP is about winning. About kicking butt and trashing other players. It's NOT ABOUT LOSING!

    The leaderboards have about 2900 pages as of July 9th, w/ 20 players a page. That gives Us a GREAT Statistical sample to work from. That's almost 60,000 people, which is a jim-dandy sample size. Now, what do those leader boards show? Simply this... as of July 9, there were seven CW's in the top 200 players. SEVEN. None of those CW's was in the TOP 20. NONE. Oh, and there was ONE cleric, and TWO GWF's. Game balance DEVS. It DOES NOT EXIST and YOUR OWN STATS PROVE IT.

    Oh, someone wants to know about HR's, TR's and GWF's? Sure... no problem. 62 TR's, 77 GWF's, and 51 HR's.

    Which is the second comment I have. A month or two ago NW put out a page (which I unfortunately did not bookmark) that listed a breakdown of the numbers of all the classes in percentages. As I recall, it stated that CW's were 18% and that HR's were 24% of the total toon population. So 18% of of all toons played are CW's.... but not even FOUR PERCENT of the top 200 players are CW's. Contrast this to HR's, which are at 25.5% of the top 200. Right where they should be. Without that NW page I can't really make any conclusive statement, but I'm fairly confident that GWF's do NOT have 38.5% of the toon total. Nor do TR's have 31% of the toon total. The numbers just don't work. So again... DEVS. FIX THIS. Your own statistics PROVE CONCLUSIVELY which classes are the weakest.

    You have my recommendations for CW. One more for free ... fix one and ONLY one class at a time. Track the leaderboards, because this is your best tool to show you how your adjustments are working in real time and in the most vicious combat environment available. Those leaderboards are were YOU DEVS should be going EVERY WEEK and say, HHMMMM, isn't that interesting?

    A VERY FRUSTRATED AND FREQUENTLY KILLED CONTROL WIZARD
  • crazymikeecrazymikee Member Posts: 694 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Ok. to all and sundry... saying that CW's have any appreciable CC is bunk. It's BS. You're smoking illegal substances. I should know, my most played PvP toon is a CW. Basically because I'm a glutton for punishment. And I love my CW in PvE, although recently I've been finding that my GWF is more effective in PvE. Playing PvP has made me a Better PvE'r, and has really shown me the real weaknesses and strengths of various classes.

    IF MY CW HAD real CC, that CC would work ALL THE TIME. As in it would be UNBLOCKABLE, UNSTOPPABLE, FULL DURATION every time. Irregardless of WHATEVER special abilities or defenses other players or Mobs have. To be a CW means that you should be the ULTIMATE MASTER of all things controlling. And that is the one change that the devs NEED to make to CW's to create some game balance.

    There's others, like increasing the blink distance to 35-40 feet so maybe I could actually break contact w/ a GF or GWF for a couple of secs so I might be able to hurt them instead of being a stun locked rag doll. Please notice I don't say KILL, because w/o that CC change and about 30-50% more damage, actually killing a GWF or GF in my power bracket by MYSELF is unlikely to say the least. That w/ me running a 12.3 K Gear score, btw, and most of my kills are other CW's, HR's and the occasional TR. It almost always takes two or more players to take down a decently played and built GF.

    Another STRONG suggestion is changing Shield into something useful like Stone Skin or Mirror Images. Yes, classic D&D spells that are perfect fits for the CW archtype. I mean, seriously, if a mob illusionist can create mirror images, so should a CW. And hey, a CW's Mirrors should have some sort of damage output, or add a hit point bonus. Something that makes them USEFUL instead of an adornment. Something that FORCES an enemy player to kill the images BEFORE attacking the CW.

    Game balance is really the problem here. I fully agree w/ others here that CW's need more defense, more damage output, and as I just said, Ironclad <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> CC's. After all, the class is CALLED Control Wizards. So why is it that all of MY control effects are USELESS against EVERY other class in PvP? The introduction of tenacity has pretty much totally screwed over CW's. We live or MORE OFTEN DIE on our CC abilities. It's just so fun for me as a CW to have a GF jump to me and then kill me in 5 secs or so as I AM STUN LOCKED or prone locked or whatever you want to call it. I call it cheap BS. I am a CW. I should be able to CC any other class to death.

    Game balance would mean that we would see more Clerics and GF's in PvP as well. Mind you, I'm really not sure what is required to fix those classes. More damage for the cleric is pretty obvious, I've killed enough of them in my various alt roles to nail that one down. Personally I don't have either class in my stable, while I DO have a HR, GWF, and a TR. If you can't kill em, join em!

    Oh, and the CW fix needs to happen BEFORE the devs add the so-called Scourge Wizard. Otherwise, I predict here and now that CW's will become a dying breed after that class is introduced. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me at all if new CW's stop being created w/in a month of the Scourge Wizard's dayview.

    Two more things.... If any DEV or ANYONE ELSE doubts that CW's, at the very least, NEED TO BE BUFFED, i.e. more damage, better blink, CC improvement, etc, I invite YOU to take a close look at the PvP leaderboards. Like someone else in this thread said, PvP is about winning. About kicking butt and trashing other players. It's NOT ABOUT LOSING!

    The leaderboards have about 2900 pages as of July 9th, w/ 20 players a page. That gives Us a GREAT Statistical sample to work from. That's almost 60,000 people, which is a jim-dandy sample size. Now, what do those leader boards show? Simply this... as of July 9, there were seven CW's in the top 200 players. SEVEN. None of those CW's was in the TOP 20. NONE. Oh, and there was ONE cleric, and TWO GWF's. Game balance DEVS. It DOES NOT EXIST and YOUR OWN STATS PROVE IT.

    Oh, someone wants to know about HR's, TR's and GWF's? Sure... no problem. 62 TR's, 77 GWF's, and 51 HR's.

    Which is the second comment I have. A month or two ago NW put out a page (which I unfortunately did not bookmark) that listed a breakdown of the numbers of all the classes in percentages. As I recall, it stated that CW's were 18% and that HR's were 24% of the total toon population. So 18% of of all toons played are CW's.... but not even FOUR PERCENT of the top 200 players are CW's. Contrast this to HR's, which are at 25.5% of the top 200. Right where they should be. Without that NW page I can't really make any conclusive statement, but I'm fairly confident that GWF's do NOT have 38.5% of the toon total. Nor do TR's have 31% of the toon total. The numbers just don't work. So again... DEVS. FIX THIS. Your own statistics PROVE CONCLUSIVELY which classes are the weakest.

    You have my recommendations for CW. One more for free ... fix one and ONLY one class at a time. Track the leaderboards, because this is your best tool to show you how your adjustments are working in real time and in the most vicious combat environment available. Those leaderboards are were YOU DEVS should be going EVERY WEEK and say, HHMMMM, isn't that interesting?

    A VERY FRUSTRATED AND FREQUENTLY KILLED CONTROL WIZARD

    In the first 10 pages there are 8 CWs. (thats 200 people) although im one of them its still stupid as hell, they should really check the leaderboards once and awhile to see that dc and cw underpreform in pvp, and now in mod4 the cw is going into the **** bin and hr is being buffed even more, for no reason except for the stupid entertainment of devs to see more people cry on the forums about imbalances
    Coach Mike - 19.1k PvP CW
    CRAZY MIKE - 14.6k PvE CW

    Backbone - 16.7k PvP HR
    [SIGPIC]http://i59.tinypic.com/s3hts7.png[/SIGPIC]
  • oicidrazoicidraz Member Posts: 627 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    brun2000 wrote: »
    How the balance in this game should be:

    CW: Medium Damage, High Control, Low Mobility, Low Res = 7/8
    TR: High Damage, Low Control, Medium Mobility, Low Res = 7/6
    GWF: Medium Damage, Low Control, Medium Mobility, Medium Res = 7/9
    GF: Low Damage, Medium Control, Low Mobility, High Res = 7/6
    DC: Low Damage, Medium Control, Low Mobility, Medium Res + Heals = 7/7
    HR: Medium Damage, Low Control, High Mobility, Low Res = 7/7

    Low = 1
    Medium = 2
    High = 3
    Heals = 1

    All stats added toguether should be 7
    *What is wrong right now should be as blue*

    How this should be (considering Mod 3 and that we are speaking about PvP, right?):
    brun2000 wrote: »
    How the balance in this game should be:

    CW: Medium Damage, High Control, Low Mobility, Low Res = 8
    TR: High Damage, Low Control, Medium Mobility, Medium Res = 7
    GWF: High Damage, Medium Control, Medium Mobility, Medium Res = 9
    GF: Low Damage, Medium Control, Low Mobility, High Res = 6
    DC: Low Damage, Medium Control, Low Mobility, Medium Res + Heals = 7
    HR: Medium Damage, Medium Control, High Mobility, Medium Res = 10

    Low = 1
    Medium = 2
    High = 3
    Heals = 1

    And all stats added toguether should be 8.
  • plaviaplavia Member Posts: 540 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    the first pages leaderboard is all prebuild party, its ok, but I wouldn't take example from it

    as for the CC
    a small example:
    I am a 15K AC DC + stone
    45% DR
    23% tenacity
    20% deflect
    30K hp
    27 wisdom (= 17% control resist)
    10% movment
    6k power, 3k recovery/crit, 1k regen
    all rank 7+ stones, weapon and armor enchants
    3 purples artifacts
    healing step, full boons, profound set, pvp rings set...
    almost every pvp stat u can get from a DC

    an when I meet a [email protected]@B CW with a 2 gold horse, 12k stat and 0 PVP equip / stat I die in 10 sec without even retaliate
    this is absurd! a NPC in icewind will take him longer time to kill

    ppl say you don't know how it was before tenacity came... well I do know and it was 100 times better

    don't get me wrong, every class will kill me, but at least against TR or HR I manage to run to the nearest golem or throw bit of damage

    against CW / GWF / GF, I do 0 damage!!!
    and its not about dodging, encounters or whatever. its all because of CC

    and if I die without moving its not a PVP, as I said, a NPC / ADD have better chance so I guess DC is even lower then that
  • doriangreighdoriangreigh Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 707 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    g4nj4m4n0 wrote: »
    HR has CC immunity? Really!
    I must have missed it last 6 months playing HR!
    Dont give out false information just to say something!

    Think they are CC immune during a daily - meditation? I dunno I have one but rarely play it, I don't find it that enjoyable, its fun (storm warden, i'm not spending to respec since I got him to 60 before the update gave a new paragon).
  • cristianrossicristianrossi Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 32
    edited July 2014
    magenubbie wrote: »
    DC: Very useful, hard to kill, but relies on it's team not being selfish and run off in every direction. Has little to no damage to speak of and doesn't kill. Never seen in PvP.
    I'm always in PVP...:'(
    EguaDoidOx - Rock'n'roll DC / EguaDoidOx - Dominion Champion CW
    Ancient Warriors Guild
  • ripyourlipsoffripyourlipsoff Member Posts: 1,552 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    magenubbie wrote: »
    PvP is boring. It has been for quite a while. But it's not because some classes have CC.
    Let's briefly recap the world of PvP, shall we? And for the sake of discussion, let's stick to domination/GG since OPvP is dominated by a single companion and therefor not worth the effort of discussing.

    CW: Definitely a lot of CC potential, but with 20% tenacity and 90% halflings working against him has no chance of survival. No damage to speak of once they hit 60. No defenses against anything. Doesn't exist in high level domination, but can get a lot of assists in GG.

    TR: Perfect defense, not enough damage to really scare anyone. Only good for node holding. Abundant in every aspect of PvP.

    DC: Very useful, hard to kill, but relies on it's team not being selfish and run off in every direction. Has little to no damage to speak of and doesn't kill. Never seen in PvP.

    GF: Decent staller, can hold nodes for a while and has a few prones. Relies heavily on team work to be effective, but must not expect to get a lot of kills on its own. Numbers are slowly growing.

    HR: Quickest movement of all classes. Mediocre damage when it sticks to either melee or ranged, but shines when it combines melee with archery. Next to unstoppable in PvP. Hard to master. Abundant in all parts of PvP.

    GWF: has everything a class needs to excel: Self healing, gap closers, prones (soon to be stuns) by the dozen, hits everything in it's path with a brute force no other class can match and has the ability to become immortal for a while. Easy to the point a trained monkey could win a match. Along with TR and HR easily the most seen class in PvP.

    Pretty much right on, the GWF, TR, HR do not need a team to be successful however a CW, GF , DC do!

    The classes need a team mate of the following:

    GF ~ Need a healer or a ranged class behind him

    DC ~ Need a melee with them, or a ranged class behind them

    CW ~ Need a melee in front of them
    Shieldbash 60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard 19.0k
    Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
    ==========================================


    ~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
  • nightstalkornightstalkor Member Posts: 154 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    plavia wrote: »
    the first pages leaderboard is all prebuild party, its ok, but I wouldn't take example from it

    as for the CC
    a small example:
    I am a 15K AC DC + stone
    45% DR
    23% tenacity
    20% deflect
    30K hp
    27 wisdom (= 17% control resist)
    10% movment
    6k power, 3k recovery/crit, 1k regen
    all rank 7+ stones, weapon and armor enchants
    3 purples artifacts
    healing step, full boons, profound set, pvp rings set...
    almost every pvp stat u can get from a DC

    an when I meet a [email protected]@B CW with a 2 gold horse, 12k stat and 0 PVP equip / stat I die in 10 sec without even retaliate
    this is absurd! a NPC in icewind will take him longer time to kill

    ppl say you don't know how it was before tenacity came... well I do know and it was 100 times better

    don't get me wrong, every class will kill me, but at least against TR or HR I manage to run to the nearest golem or throw bit of damage

    against CW / GWF / GF, I do 0 damage!!!
    and its not about dodging, encounters or whatever. its all because of CC

    and if I die without moving its not a PVP, as I said, a NPC / ADD have better chance so I guess DC is even lower then that

    dude, you MUST be doing something wrong. Most of the time it takes me 20-30 secs to burn down a cleric. They are TOUGH. And hard to CC. And when the TR nerf and tenacity first came out, my TR ran into 2 clerics that I COULD NOT KILL. Heck, I could barely put a dent in either of those guys, and I was trying. I did an equipment upgrade shortly thereafter, but it used to be that my alpha strike could take ANY CW or Cleric down to around 1/2 health or more. Now I'm lucky to get 1/4.

    As for 12 K for a CW, from my standpoint, that's pretty high. My score is 12.3 w/ two lvl 59 artifacts (no 3rd one), max dread ring and sharandar boons, lvl 6 -7 enchantments, and tier 2-3 PvE gear. I have one normal and one lesser enhancement in my armor and weapon respectively, and NO, I do not have soulforged. Have been thinking about it, but I am not willing to spend money on this game despite my love for it.

    Why no PvP gear? I'll be buying tier 3 PvP weapons soon and see what difference, if any, they make. Both my TR and my GWF have tier One Pvp gear, and frankly I have not really noticed much difference in game play. For a CW, tenacity is a useless stat. It is based on resistance, and when you don't have any or very little, what's the point? All adding it did was drag down the USEFUL STATS of the PvP Armor. Not to mention that the NEW PvP armor stat choices suck IMHO.

    As for the top 200... DUDE, that is where to look. I don't care if they're running in groups, that just supports my argument. I'll bet you $1000 that ALL of those top 200 players are running maxed out monsters. They most likely all have lvl 9 enchantments minimum, Tier 3 gear, perfect weapon and armor enhancements, max boons, at least one maxed out artifact and probably two. In OTHER words, the playing field from a Gear score standpoint is LEVEL. So the only differences MUST BE in relative CLASS KILLING ABILITY and SURVIVABILITY. How about it crazymikee? Care to share?
  • dustintheclouddustinthecloud Member Posts: 57 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Game balance is really the problem here. I fully agree w/ others here that CW's need more defense, more damage output, and as I just said, Ironclad <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> CC's. After all, the class is CALLED Control Wizards. So why is it that all of MY control effects are USELESS against EVERY other class in PvP? The introduction of tenacity has pretty much totally screwed over CW's. We live or MORE OFTEN DIE on our CC abilities. It's just so fun for me as a CW to have a GF jump to me and then kill me in 5 secs or so as I AM STUN LOCKED or prone locked or whatever you want to call it. I call it cheap BS. I am a CW. I should be able to CC any other class to death.


    A VERY FRUSTRATED AND FREQUENTLY KILLED CONTROL WIZARD

    So, you want ur class to be overpowered, and able to perma cc anyone and kill them, without letting them the chance to defend themselves?


    .....And you're the 1 talking about balance?.....Sigh....


    dude, you MUST be doing something wrong. Most of the time it takes me 20-30 secs to burn down a cleric. They are TOUGH. And hard to CC. And when the TR nerf and tenacity first came out, my TR ran into 2 clerics that I COULD NOT KILL. Heck, I could barely put a dent in either of those guys, and I was trying. I did an equipment upgrade shortly thereafter, but it used to be that my alpha strike could take ANY CW or Cleric down to around 1/2 health or more. Now I'm lucky to get 1/4.

    As for 12 K for a CW, from my standpoint, that's pretty high. My score is 12.3 w/ two lvl 59 artifacts (no 3rd one), max dread ring and sharandar boons, lvl 6 -7 enchantments, and tier 2-3 PvE gear. I have one normal and one lesser enhancement in my armor and weapon respectively, and NO, I do not have soulforged. Have been thinking about it, but I am not willing to spend money on this game despite my love for it.

    Why no PvP gear? I'll be buying tier 3 PvP weapons soon and see what difference, if any, they make. Both my TR and my GWF have tier One Pvp gear, and frankly I have not really noticed much difference in game play. For a CW, tenacity is a useless stat. It is based on resistance, and when you don't have any or very little, what's the point? All adding it did was drag down the USEFUL STATS of the PvP Armor. Not to mention that the NEW PvP armor stat choices suck IMHO.

    As for the top 200... DUDE, that is where to look. I don't care if they're running in groups, that just supports my argument. I'll bet you $1000 that ALL of those top 200 players are running maxed out monsters. They most likely all have lvl 9 enchantments minimum, Tier 3 gear, perfect weapon and armor enhancements, max boons, at least one maxed out artifact and probably two. In OTHER words, the playing field from a Gear score standpoint is LEVEL. So the only differences MUST BE in relative CLASS KILLING ABILITY and SURVIVABILITY. How about it crazymikee? Care to share?


    Im from the top 200+-, and im only rank7-8 enchantments, 0 maxed artifacts(some still blue)...I almost never run 5 men premades( sometimes i duo queue with a friend, but rarely), i have no t3 , 0 black ice gear, and only 1 boon from ICD....It's not all about gear...

    crazymikee wrote: »
    In the first 10 pages there are 8 CWs. (thats 200 people) although im one of them its still stupid as hell, they should really check the leaderboards once and awhile to see that dc and cw underpreform in pvp, and now in mod4 the cw is going into the **** bin and hr is being buffed even more, for no reason except for the stupid entertainment of devs to see more people cry on the forums about imbalances

    CW and DC are suport classes... they normally dont perform that well, holding 1 vs 1 a node against any of these(hr,gwf,tr)...

    And the nerf for cw for mod4 its not that big(only pve wise), for pvp they will still be pretty good suports, since shard prones will last way longer.


    Oftopic: played against you today(and also in the past), a little advice: u should be a little bit nicer with ur teammates, insulting someone because he didn't do what he should do(or did a mistake), its not the way to go....
  • plaviaplavia Member Posts: 540 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    dude, you MUST be doing something wrong. Most of the time it takes me 20-30 secs to burn down a cleric. They are TOUGH. And hard to CC...

    whats exactly is hard in killing DC?
    the 2 more mouse clicks compare to training dummy or AFK character?
    did the DC almost killed you?
    controlled you?

    you kill DC in 20 sec and you complain its to hard? you prefer to kill it in one mouse click?

    I hear this argument that DC are "hard" to kill but I have no idea what so hard?
    sometime I meet in icewind TR that actually try to only stealth attack me... after a while he understand its waist of time, change his encounters and kill me with duelist fury and some other encounters
  • fuzzychaos13fuzzychaos13 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 127 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2014
    "A fight pretty much amounts to two classes stunlocking you and focusing you down.'


    .......So what your saying is that This game is doing exactly what every other MMO has.,.......

    Its called commmunication......If you dont have communication in pvp.. then your gna lose. Get a microphone, get in a good guild, and start pwning....
  • aulduronaulduron Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,351 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    My CW is 15K with r8s/9s, 3 purple artifacts and there are a lot of DCs I can't kill. Some I've actually had to run from and some kill me if I'm fighting someone else. I have no idea what they do. My DC (13k) can't stand up to anyone for more than a couple of seconds.
  • williep30williep30 Member Posts: 773 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2014
    aulduron wrote: »
    My CW is 15K with r8s/9s, 3 purple artifacts and there are a lot of DCs I can't kill. Some I've actually had to run from and some kill me if I'm fighting someone else. I have no idea what they do. My DC (13k) can't stand up to anyone for more than a couple of seconds.

    Anymore, a lot of DCs tend to go anointed champion, for the increased DR builds they can use. Like TRs and HRs, they dropped their main purpose(healing for DCs) for buffing their defenses really high. Can you blame them though? Healing Depression hit DCs pretty hard...
    I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
  • ripyourlipsoffripyourlipsoff Member Posts: 1,552 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    aulduron wrote: »
    My CW is 15K with r8s/9s, 3 purple artifacts and there are a lot of DCs I can't kill. Some I've actually had to run from and some kill me if I'm fighting someone else. I have no idea what they do. My DC (13k) can't stand up to anyone for more than a couple of seconds.

    What spec are you? Because my CW 14.7k blue artifacts have not lost to a DC? I mean that too, maybe some crazy BI geared Tank DC I can't but so far I pretty much roll them by the second rotation.
    Shieldbash 60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard 19.0k
    Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
    ==========================================


    ~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
  • aulduronaulduron Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,351 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    I'm a renegade. They don't actually kill me solo, but there are quite a few I can't kill alone. Their HPs never go down, but mine do. To be clear, I can kill most of them. These are probably built specifically for PvP (I'm not), and out gear me by a ways (I never inspect in PvP)

    I can kill most anyone I can get the drop on, except GWFs, especially if I'm on a higher level. I even took out a perma TR today that I had earlier seen 3 of my teammates wasting their time on. He didn't even make any glaring mistakes, though he might not have been very well geared.
  • nightstalkornightstalkor Member Posts: 154 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    So, you want ur class to be overpowered, and able to perma cc anyone and kill them, without letting them the chance to defend themselves?


    .....And you're the 1 talking about balance?.....Sigh....

    NO. I want a chance to get away and MAYBE kill. I'm not running renegade, I'm using my own build. To wit, Conduit of Ice, Entangling Force, Shard of Endless Avalanche, Fanning the Flame. Dailies are Ice Storm and Furious Immolation. So two slows and one hold, that at max is good for about 3 seconds. Compare that to the 5 PLUS seconds that a GF Or a GWF can CONTINUOUSLY STUN LOCK MY CW. And kill her. If you have a CW build that can hold (Stun lock) someone in series, I'd be VERY INTERESTED in seeing it.

    Put another way... SO it's OKAY for a GF or a GWF to do it to MY CW, when I have WAY fewer hit points and SUBSTANTIALLY lower armor class, but it's not OK for ME to do it to them? To quote Jim Carrey, "RRRREEEEEAAAAAALLLLLLYYYY? I can see YOUR FAVORITISM! Not to mention the continuing ongoing favoritism of the DEVS. If my CC's worked like I have suggested, then this INCREDIBLE IMBALANCE would be SOMEWHAT offset. The other fixes still need to happen.

    Im from the top 200+-, and im only rank7-8 enchantments, 0 maxed artifacts(some still blue)...I almost never run 5 men premades( sometimes i duo queue with a friend, but rarely), i have no t3 , 0 black ice gear, and only 1 boon from ICD....It's not all about gear...

    So that's 3 artifacts at over 60, correct? Exactly which armor/weapon enhancements? What's your total gear score? I posted mine! You're in the top 200 and haven't purchased T3 PvP gear? Why the heck Not? You should have earned the glory to do so....


    CW and DC are suport classes... they normally dont perform that well, holding 1 vs 1 a node against any of these(hr,gwf,tr)...

    See again GAME BALANCE, OR THE CONCEPT THEREOF. Which was the whole point of my discussion. Three classes INARGUEABLY DOMINATE PvP. EVEN YOU SAY SO. So why should I even ROLL a CW, DC, or GF? If my toon is not EQUALLY GOOD in ALL aspects of the game, why have it? That is why this incredible GAME IMBALANCE NEEDS TO BE RECTIFIED.

    As for a wizard of ANY KIND being a support character, DUDE. You are MESSED UP. I can tell that you have NEVER read any of the MANY D&D books out there. Probably have never played any 2nd or 3rd Edition either. I have ONE name for you my friend.. ELMINSTER.

    And the nerf for cw for mod4 its not that big(only pve wise), for pvp they will still be pretty good suports, since shard prones will last way longer.

    Again, CW's BADLY NEED TO BE BUFFED. END DISCUSSION. I not sure of what nerf you're talking about, but it's bad enough for CW's already. Bloody DEVS need to wake up and READ THE PVP LEADERBOARDS.

    Oftopic: played against you today(and also in the past), a little advice: u should be a little bit nicer with ur teammates, insulting someone because he didn't do what he should do(or did a mistake), its not the way to go....

    Is that to crazymikee? Hope so. I only insult people who have earned it. Like the slackers who cower in the spawn when our team is getting clobbered. Or maybe people who are not reading my arguments and are OBVIOUSLY not aware of their own hypocrisy.

    cheers.
  • nightstalkornightstalkor Member Posts: 154 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    To Recap.

    The DEVS need to use the PvP leaderboards as a tool to survey how classes are doing in PvP.
    There are now over 3200 pages on the leaderboards. Recommend looking at the top 200 players for a quick trend, the top 600 players for a solid trend. But my number crunching indicates you will see little difference in class percentage population between these two numbers.

    For TRUE GAME BALANCE, these trend numbers NEED to reflect the ACTUAL toon game population. That is, CW's should be about 12 to 18 percent of this group, NOT FOUR PERCENT. Ditto for TR's and GWF's. These two groups should NOT BOTH be over 30 percent!
    This change should be done by BUFFING, NOT NERFING, the unfairly represented classes. As a side note, As a CW I am sick and tired of being nerfed, Nerfed, NERFED all the **** time. Buff ONE class at a time, small steps. Do a buff, watch the leaderboards for a week or two. If little to no change, buff again. If HUGE change, dial back BUFF. Simple. Rinse and repeat.

    Some people apparently think its OK for THEIR favored classes to stun/hold lock others, but NOT OK for that to happen to them. These individuals need to check their hypocrisy at the door.
    One person who was purportedly in the top 200 refused to give out a Gear score. My guess is that dustinthecloud didn't want to say that his toon was over 14K as a CW. Or similar overwhelming power for whatever toon he was talking about.

    Wizards of any kind SHOULD BE FRONT LINE KILLERS. But somehow the DEVS seem bound and determined to make CW's total wimps, not even giving us PENETRATING CONTROL ABILITY. THIS NEEDS TO STOP!!

    MANDATORY BUFFS TO CONTROL WIZARDS: 1) Increase blink/teleport to 35-40 ft. NOT 25. CW is a ranged class. They need to be able to break contact. Otherwise they just die. 2) New power in place of shield, something like Mirror Images, or an "armor" skin that has 3 to 5 times the HPs of shield. 3) PENETRATING CONTROL / CC. Make it a 3 or 4 step item in the basic CW feats. At 100%, the CW's CC abilities BYPASS all defenses of GWF's, GF's etc. As best I can tell, this will NOT allow a CW to perma stunlock them, but it will give a CW a chance to get away or do some good damage. In other words, give the CW a CHANCE TO kill, not a guarantee. Unlike what currently happens to MY CW.

    I sincerely hope that the DEVS are listening, and do the right thing. The trend in PvP has been for the totally uncalled for dominance of three classes. For GAME BALANCE, all classes should be doing equally well in PvP. Again, this can be determined by toon population comparison. STOP THE FAVORITISM NOW!! Do it right... or just don't do it.

    Cheers.
  • charononuscharononus Member Posts: 5,715 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Ummm CW's are getting a good chunk of cc resistance in mod4, extra length to their cc spells, and more damage resistance.
  • boanergeseboanergese Member Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    What they need to add to the game that would fix the issue with crowd control is resilience. It's not that most classes have a way to CC you, it's that you can easily be stun locked by two players and not be able to fight back. The way resilience would work is that once someone prones or roots or snares, etc. you the resilience meter would fill up. The second time you are CC within 15 seconds it would be full. Any addition CC within 15 seconds wouldn't work on you. You would still receive the damage from the encounter, but you wouldn't be knocked down or rooted. This would give you the ability to heal yourself, use your encounters, and get out of range. Currently in Mod 3 you can go from full health to death in 10 seconds if two players group up on you and CC you, even with tenacity and 40,000 health. I think the developers should also reconsider the protection that tenacity gives to players. Battles should be longer once you have a full set of PVP gear.
  • jazzfongjazzfong Member Posts: 1,079 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    I laughed so hard when i see someone protesting cw and asked for mandatory buff. Which CW cant kill a DC?? He must learn to play, unless he is facing the BIS monsters with 10k gs. I am a 14k gs ACDC with full r8, but then i lost to a 14k gs CW in less than 20 sec. I was played and juggled at least 5 secs for every rotation and i was given only a few seconds to heal back those damage done to me.

    In fact, DC have no chance to win or stall a CW, he will die 100% and it is just time issue. If CW get major buffs, what will happen on DC? We have no cc-immune skill, always rooted or proned to death without a single chance to dodge or have to wait every 15 secs for a 2 sec immune shell. You get a buff?? Well we die faster.

    Be grateful fellow CW, there is a class who suffer more than you in pvp, especially after tenacity patch. You guys can ignore a portion of cc-immunity from tenacity, but we cant bypass healing depression. You guys got a rework, we got a tooltip revision. Just my 2 cents.
  • kweassakweassa Member Posts: 2,390 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    CC is an integral part of any PvP. Without CCs, any PvP is simply a menial contest of:

    (a) who strikes first
    (b) who has higher DPS
    (c) who has higher defense
    Stop making excuses. Be a man.
    If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
    Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
  • plaviaplavia Member Posts: 540 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    kweassa wrote: »
    CC is an integral part of any PvP. Without CCs, any PvP is simply a menial contest of:

    (a) who strikes first
    (b) who has higher DPS
    (c) who has higher defense

    ok, so now its depend on what class you chosen and that's it
    now some classes will lose 100% no matter skill, GS etc.
    I am not talking about winning, I realize long time that as DC you cannot win.
    but losing so fast without doing any damage???
    don't remove control. but make it reasonable
    it doesn't make sense to die without even moving
  • pando83pando83 Member Posts: 2,562 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Exaggerations about classes apart, every class has its role and strenght in PvP. My experience:

    - DC: can be so tanky, even with healing depression, to just be nearly unkillable by a single opponent. Good to contest nodes till backup arrives.

    - CW: can hurt A LOT from far and focus his double ray of enfeblement debuff on the stronger player in the enemy team to make him melt fast. Powerful backup class. Most likely the strongest ranged backup you can see in PvP. Can avoid damage by teleporting and kite enemies a bit till some mate comes to save his *** if a melee start focusing him. Can get lots of kills and assists firing from higher ground/ back lines.

    - TR: when properly specced and played, can have the best ability to troll points against multiple enemies. Can engage/ disengage at will. Perfect to keep trolling the enemy base.

    - HR: powerful ranged DPS. Also, right now, along with tank DCs, the most tanky class when properly geared/ specced/ used. Monster self-healing. Also, useful backup to reduce the mobility of fighter tanks and root them to protect CWs/ DCs.

    - GF: when well geared and used can tank a lot with his block, chain prone and stall for long enemy GFs and GWFs.

    - GWFs: the best melee DPS. Less able to tank multiple enemies than TRs and HRs right now, but can chain CC (at least till module 4 arrives) and fight a lot into the brawl. 2v1 melts fast if the enemies know what they are doing. 1v1, one of the strongest classes along with TRs and HRs. Requires skills to face and beat a good perma TR.

    Things gonna change a lot in module 4. At least hope the tidal wave of nerfs the class got will stop the endless QQ against GWFs.

    Thing is, any class if the player is good and geared can seem OP. Any class has different roles in PvP. With my old CW i was always 1st-2nd-3rd cause i knew i got to go cap with team mates and not alone, debuff specific enemies to help my team and DPS nuke stuff from far.

    Sad thing is few players, if you ask me, understand that different classes have different strenghts and weaknesses, and must be used differently in PvP.
  • yperkeimenosyperkeimenos Member Posts: 334 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    In True AD&D, Archwizards were like Demigods. It was Archmages, like Karsus or Raistlin, who even challenged the Gods. Nothing can and should compete with raw magical power and yet people seem to forget that. But since this game isn't true D&D its understandable that wizards are the pvp weaklings we know them to be. Easy to kill and with spell powers that roll over you like rain water due to CC immunities and Tenacity. Oh and lets not forget the "Conduits of Divine Wrath" Devine Clerics who are so divine you actually forget they exist in pvp.
    It's BUGS bunny i tell you.
  • tang56tang56 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    In True AD&D, Archwizards were like Demigods. It was Archmages, like Karsus or Raistlin, who even challenged the Gods. Nothing can and should compete with raw magical power and yet people seem to forget that. But since this game isn't true D&D its understandable that wizards are the pvp weaklings we know them to be. Easy to kill and with spell powers that roll over you like rain water due to CC immunities and Tenacity. Oh and lets not forget the "Conduits of Divine Wrath" Devine Clerics who are so divine you actually forget they exist in pvp.

    Ok fine. But you get 15 encounter spells and one daily a day.
    RIP Neverwinter 26/06/2014
  • charononuscharononus Member Posts: 5,715 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    tang56 wrote: »
    Ok fine. But you get 15 encounter spells and one daily a day.

    Considering campfires are places to rest it would be more like 15 encounters and one daily between trips to a campfire.
  • nightstalkornightstalkor Member Posts: 154 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    magenubbie wrote: »
    Don't worry. The only CWs that PvP are those with a death wish. Domination may be doable, but you'll get roared to death before you can cast a sudden storm anywhere else. OPvP is so not for CWs it's ridiculous. While GWFs mod4 nerfs are slowly being undone, the CW gets... 25% longer control time. 25% of 0.1 second extra. I thought I was about to faint when I read that. If only it would help...20% from tenacity, 10% from the halfling..a crapload more if we're talking about OPvP. At least a 70% increase is needed to pretend to have some form of CC.

    But you're wrong on a few points. TRs are probably a LARGE part of the playerbase. But most of them are PvE specced, give PvP a try or 2 and realize that with their build there's no way they'll get a single kill in. You think those people change to perma MIs just to PvP? hell no.
    Same goes for GWF. Since both PvP and PvE started to be about GWFs -this was a little while before the HR came out- everybody made GWFs. While maybe not as good in one or the other, they are capable of doing both PvP and PvE to an extend it does't really matter if he's PvP or PvE specced (except for in PvP).
    Lastly, a DC will never perfom well in PvP. Fights don't last long enough for their buffs to be useful, and you can't expect a cleric to deal the same dmg a fighter/tr/cw does. That would be unrealistic. All they can do is spam that chains root thing whatever it's called. They can make good node holders, but it ends there.

    Ok. I think you need to go read all of my posts on this thread. You are basically agreeing w/ my various points. That's why I'm calling for changes. PvP as it is right now is ONLY really for TR's, HR's, and GWF's. Any other class is basically there to raise the kill count of those toons.

    I am DEMANDING game balance. I have pointed out the tools to judge it by and some ways that CW (at least!) could be transformed so that It could be a competitive PvP class. And I have also said that improvements NEED to be made to DC and GF as well. I just don't know what, since I don't HAVE either of those classes.

    One of those posts pointed out that at 2-3 months ago, the DEVS posted a page that laid out the class distribution in the game. It said that there were 18% CW's and 24% HR's. So FOURTY TWO percent of ALL toons played In NW at that time were HR's and CW's. That leaves FIFTY EIGHT percent for GWF's, TR's, GF's and DC's.

    So there is NO way, mathematically, that GWF's and TR's can have the numbers in toons that they have in the top of PvP. If they did, then No one would be playing DC's and GF's AT ALL. For that matter, since TR's have 31% and GWF's have 38.5% of the top 200, that cuts hard into the real numbers of HR's and CW's.

    I'm not saying that there aren't plenty of TR's and GWF's. But I AM saying that they are overwhelming in PvP. And please NOTE that I have REPEATEDLY asked for the 'weak' classes to be BUFFED, NOT for the 'strong' classes to be NERFED. Which is why I find some of the nay sayers here fascinating. You turkeys just can't STAND the idea of a fair fight, can you?

    cheers
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