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The Hunter Ranger Changes Aren't Looking Pretty

cryptfoundationcryptfoundation Member Posts: 342 Arc User
So the HR class is turning in to a whole new class because literally everything is getting changed except their encounter powers (which some are). I think the HR community is too quiet about these changes. This isn't about the set bonus it's about the whole class rework.

I don't think I'm liking the idea of the way the devs are trying to make the class work.... Honestly I liked it much better when the Archery Tree was a Hybrid who did more damage with ranged attacks and the Melee Tree was a Hybrid who did more damage with melee attacks. So here's my feedback

Don't rework the class. The tab ability of the HR is because they're supposed to weave in and out of combat. I liked the initial plan for the HR class where the path of melee would just give you more melee damage and vice versa with range. The new path changes are basically forcing us to stay in the Combat or Ranged stance. Giving more damage and defense ONLY when on one certain stance is encouraging players to not use the tab ability to weave in and out of combat.

My next line of feedback goes as the following..

Don't change Constricting Arrows so that it's basically a stronger Binding Arrows.. Instead change Binding Arrows so that it does that. The way Constricting Arrows worked was not confusing for anyone, I'm sure all the HRs loved it. It's the only thing that stops the chain prones/CCs from GWFs, GFs, and CWs. The melee path is going to be a joke because the set is getting nerfed, we have no CCs with the lost of Constricting Arrows aside from a Daily which is Distruptive Shot. How are we supposed to use that daily if we're being prone/CC chained? Leave Constricting as is. The only problem anyone ever had was when it went through unstoppable and now that's fixed so you're changing something that was never asked to be changed so that it's an exact copy of another skill. The Trapper tree is going to be a joke honestly, if you're going to change the Archery and Melee Tree totally then replace Nature with something then Replace it with something called the Hybrid Tree. Make it so that it's a combination of the old skills that were on the Archery and Melee Tree. In PVP I don't even understand what Grasping Roots are going to do. Keeping TRs at a distance? They have ITC.. Keeping GWFs at a distance? They have Unstoppable.. Keeping other Rangers, CWs, DCs at a distance? That's good because they are ranged classes. Leaving Grasping Roots only useful against GFs. Only use of the roots would be to keep the opponent from running of the node (Which you want them to do) or getting to the next node (The roots are gonna wear off) Which is going to easily dissapear when Unstoppable/ITC is popped.

So basically what I'm getting at is that you don't need to make the HR a totally different class, everyone that's playing the ranger now are playing it because they LIKE how they are now. If you're going to change the paths totally at least change Trapper in to a Hybrid Tree which is a combination of what the Melee/Archery Tree used to be. Thanks for reading and I think it's great you guys are trying to change things up but I like my class, the way it is, and was meant to be.
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  • hustin1hustin1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,467 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    I'm not at all happy about the change to Constricting Arrow. That's the only way to keep a red wizard from nuking me, a golem from knocking me flying, etc.
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  • ghoulz66ghoulz66 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,748 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    hustin1 wrote: »
    I'm not at all happy about the change to Constricting Arrow. That's the only way to keep a red wizard from nuking me, a golem from knocking me flying, etc.

    You're not a GF. You have to dodge stuff. Simple, yes?
  • dheffernandheffernan Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 216 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    The majority of what a CW will throw at you in PvP can't realistically be dodged.

    However, since PvP is a joke in bad taste in every MMO ever, this isn't something I'm going to cry about.
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  • cindiklecindikle Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 43
    edited July 2014
    I somewhat agree.

    I do not like that as Archery I wont be using Tab much. This really seems odd to me. At best I have Throw Caution. Single target I have a few more choices. But these choices are group buffs. Which were only strong in the Nature tree.

    Combat I'm sure will still be using it. The didn't get much to a melee focused damage build. And I'm sure we'll be seeing plenty of Thorn wards and Rain of Arrows coming from them. Unsure what they'd use for the 3rd slot. Maybe they'd be using the same thing there too, Throw Caution. Although I'd assume Marauder's would take over for gap closing needs. Although I don't think we'll see many of these in PvE. Just as we wont see many Archers in PvP.

    The point of trapper is lost on me. I get what they're doing. But why ruin the Nature tree? We have the tools for it to work. They could of combined the two and made it a CC/buff tree.

    Overall I feel Archery is losing depth. Combat isn't going to be very strong. And everyone seems to hate the Trapper tree.

    And all we can see is people QQing about Combat's healing or that Archery can't do damage when they bring nothing else. Which has been nerfed and fixed.
  • cheesegromitcheesegromit Member Posts: 540 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Don't change Constricting Arrows so that it's basically a stronger Binding Arrows..

    This is probably the biggest annoyance for me out of all the changes across all the classes. It ultimately doesn't matter that much for how I play but it still irks me that they couldn't come up with something different for Constricting Arrow.
  • edited July 2014
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  • arcmoon99arcmoon99 Member Posts: 499 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    I like trapper a whole lot more than nature though. It felt like HR was going for a Melee striker/Ranged Striker/Evasive/off-tank/Support class which made the class feel like it had an unfocused direction and only served as a class that could do everything, but wasn't best at anything.

    With the new Trapper tree(Hybrid/CC) the class feels just like an Evasive Hybrid Striker. Which I like a lot more because now the class feels more focused and now HRs feel like they have a real direction and can finally be focused on being good at just that.

    I feel bad for the people that wanted to play a support HR, but not to many people were interested in playing a Ranger to heal and buff allies. We'll just have to wait for either Druid or Shaman for a Nature support class.

    EDIT: and have you seen the feats for the Trapper recently? I don't know how they were before recently, but it's all about Weaving between Melee and Ranged. Most feats allow ranged attacks to power melee attacks and vice versa. They also rewarded for pressing the tab and changing stances.
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  • cryptfoundationcryptfoundation Member Posts: 342 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    macjae wrote: »
    Changing Constricting Arrow is one of the best things they are doing. The way it currently works in PvP, it's far too good of a cc ability in the hands of any half-decent HR player. It is in dire need of some sort of nerf from the current state of affairs. As for stopping cc from other classes, no class gets as many dodges as HRs. Furthermore, if you look at the larger picture, GFs and GWFs are getting their prone chains cut too, and Roar won't root you anymore. CWs are getting the potential for more control, but their damage is being cut by quite a lot.

    For the same reason, the changes to the armor set bonus, the ability to only have one Thorn Ward in place at a time and now the changes to Aspect of the Lone Wolf are all changes for the better in PvP. Those are all key aspects of why HRs are the strongest PvP class at the moment.

    So far, a lot of these changes are hitting the right spots. Making Constricting Arrow not periodically stun people is an especially important spot to hit. A different rework might have been okay as well, like making it only stun once, reducing the base cooldown, or giving it a charge system similar to Impact Shot or Hindering Shot.

    I think that a large part of these changes are to do with giving HRs more of their intended role. Currently, HRs are by far the tankiest characters in PvP at least, between their armor set bonus, Aspect of the Lone Wolf giving very high base DR, numerous dodges, ability to cc opponents to mess up their rotations, ability to control a node with Thorn Wards, ranged attacks, and even a get-out-jail-free card if they start going low on health anyway in the form of Forest Meditation. No other class stands a chance against an equally skilled, equally geared HR to control a node. A good permastealth TR may be able to survive and contest indefinitely, but that's pretty much it. GFs get absolutely destroyed, CWs get out-controlled via Constricting Arrow and Disruptive Shot and die, some DCs might be able to tank for a bit but they have no ability to win against an HR whatsoever. A GWF might score a fluke win if he gets a chain of lucky crits in to take the HR down quickly, but they generally die quickly too in most cases. The end result is that HRs are node holders in PvP, sitting on 1 or 3.

    That's just the PvP end of things, though. In PvE, a good HR brings respectable DPS to the party, especially with good teamwork. The main problem with HRs in PvE has generally been the number of outright bad HRs out there that mess things up for the rest of the party, drawing too much aggro with Split Shot, then un-controlling adds by running madly around trying to dodge all the stuff they've aggroed, while neatly staying outside the healing range of the DC because they are "archers." Their relative underperformance in more optimized settings is due more to lack of synergy with CWs and GWFs; they are more than adequate and useful already compared to TRs and GFs if played well. So the trick here is to tone down CW and GWF performance in PvE, while making HRs a bit more straightforward to play well.



    As for this part, I believe this is the stated intention of the new third paragon feat path to support this playstyle, while the other two paths support more strict melee and ranged styles. That's not necessarily a bad direction to go. It tends to support how a lot of people are actually currently playing the class better. The HR class may currently (by design even) have a slightly higher skill threshold to get a good mileage out of it than most of the other classes, simply because the melee/ranged interactions are a bit more complex. A lot of people simply like to play "archers"; you see a ton of HRs like that in PvP who don't play their class to its full potential, they just try to sit around and use Aimed Shot or stuff like that. Allowing those guys better tools to play like that isn't necessarily a bad thing for the community as a whole; the ability to switch between melee and ranged mode is obviously still there for more advanced players.

    I don't think you understand the changes all that much. The set is getting nerfed removing the tanky ones from the game period. AOTLF is getting nerfed so CWs and TRs won't have a problem murdering us. The feat they gave to help compensate for the set nerf got nerfed too. Don't worry however, people are still crying about WM. Deleting the ability to save us from CC chains and making it total **** is stupid. AOTLF isn't even cried about, in fact neither is CA so why did the devs remove it is the real question. We won't be tanky at all and the damage is going to be nothing if we're killed by CCs before we can even deal some. The trapper path is a poor excuse for trying to make it a mixture of a hybrid and useless roots. The roots are useless because no ones going to be running from a squishy no damage dealing joke lol. I'm fine with it being one tree for complete Melee and one for complete Archery but we need a hybrid that can pull both the damage dealing and survivability off not a tree that pulls none off but instead pulls off using roots that will eventually get them killed either way. Meanwhile the GWF nerf is a buff which by looking at it you won't even feel the nerfs but you'll feel the buff indefinitely
  • ahsherahsher Member Posts: 208 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2014
    macjae wrote: »
    Changing Constricting Arrow is one of the best things they are doing. The way it currently works in PvP, it's far too good of a cc ability in the hands of any half-decent HR player. It is in dire need of some sort of nerf from the current state of affairs. As for stopping cc from other classes, no class gets as many dodges as HRs. Furthermore, if you look at the larger picture, GFs and GWFs are getting their prone chains cut too, and Roar won't root you anymore. CWs are getting the potential for more control, but their damage is being cut by quite a lot.

    For the same reason, the changes to the armor set bonus, the ability to only have one Thorn Ward in place at a time and now the changes to Aspect of the Lone Wolf are all changes for the better in PvP. Those are all key aspects of why HRs are the strongest PvP class at the moment.

    So far, a lot of these changes are hitting the right spots. Making Constricting Arrow not periodically stun people is an especially important spot to hit. A different rework might have been okay as well, like making it only stun once, reducing the base cooldown, or giving it a charge system similar to Impact Shot or Hindering Shot.

    I think that a large part of these changes are to do with giving HRs more of their intended role. Currently, HRs are by far the tankiest characters in PvP at least, between their armor set bonus, Aspect of the Lone Wolf giving very high base DR, numerous dodges, ability to cc opponents to mess up their rotations, ability to control a node with Thorn Wards, ranged attacks, and even a get-out-jail-free card if they start going low on health anyway in the form of Forest Meditation. No other class stands a chance against an equally skilled, equally geared HR to control a node. A good permastealth TR may be able to survive and contest indefinitely, but that's pretty much it. GFs get absolutely destroyed, CWs get out-controlled via Constricting Arrow and Disruptive Shot and die, some DCs might be able to tank for a bit but they have no ability to win against an HR whatsoever. A GWF might score a fluke win if he gets a chain of lucky crits in to take the HR down quickly, but they generally die quickly too in most cases. The end result is that HRs are node holders in PvP, sitting on 1 or 3.

    That's just the PvP end of things, though. In PvE, a good HR brings respectable DPS to the party, especially with good teamwork. The main problem with HRs in PvE has generally been the number of outright bad HRs out there that mess things up for the rest of the party, drawing too much aggro with Split Shot, then un-controlling adds by running madly around trying to dodge all the stuff they've aggroed, while neatly staying outside the healing range of the DC because they are "archers." Their relative underperformance in more optimized settings is due more to lack of synergy with CWs and GWFs; they are more than adequate and useful already compared to TRs and GFs if played well. So the trick here is to tone down CW and GWF performance in PvE, while making HRs a bit more straightforward to play well.



    As for this part, I believe this is the stated intention of the new third paragon feat path to support this playstyle, while the other two paths support more strict melee and ranged styles. That's not necessarily a bad direction to go. It tends to support how a lot of people are actually currently playing the class better. The HR class may currently (by design even) have a slightly higher skill threshold to get a good mileage out of it than most of the other classes, simply because the melee/ranged interactions are a bit more complex. A lot of people simply like to play "archers"; you see a ton of HRs like that in PvP who don't play their class to its full potential, they just try to sit around and use Aimed Shot or stuff like that. Allowing those guys better tools to play like that isn't necessarily a bad thing for the community as a whole; the ability to switch between melee and ranged mode is obviously still there for more advanced players.

    +1 I agree 100%
    People who did not think HR's were OP in pvp didn't likely min max their character.
    2 Hr Stacking aoe's on nodes
    Being chain stunned by constricting arrow while taking 7-9k damage in between is death to anyone that cannot escape cc.
    Sitting down while being dps'd by 2 players and popping up full health.
    If it were any other class doing it to you, you'd be flaming.
  • marnivalmarnival Member Posts: 1,432 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Changing Constricting Arrow is one of the best things they are doing. The way it currently works in PvP, it's far too good of a cc ability in the hands of any half-decent HR player. It is in dire need of some sort of nerf from the current state of affairs. As for stopping cc from other classes, no class gets as many dodges as HRs. Furthermore, if you look at the larger picture, GFs and GWFs are getting their prone chains cut too, and Roar won't root you anymore. CWs are getting the potential for more control, but their damage is being cut by quite a lot.

    For the same reason, the changes to the armor set bonus, the ability to only have one Thorn Ward in place at a time and now the changes to Aspect of the Lone Wolf are all changes for the better in PvP. Those are all key aspects of why HRs are the strongest PvP class at the moment.

    So far, a lot of these changes are hitting the right spots. Making Constricting Arrow not periodically stun people is an especially important spot to hit. A different rework might have been okay as well, like making it only stun once, reducing the base cooldown, or giving it a charge system similar to Impact Shot or Hindering Shot.

    I think that a large part of these changes are to do with giving HRs more of their intended role. Currently, HRs are by far the tankiest characters in PvP at least, between their armor set bonus, Aspect of the Lone Wolf giving very high base DR, numerous dodges, ability to cc opponents to mess up their rotations, ability to control a node with Thorn Wards, ranged attacks, and even a get-out-jail-free card if they start going low on health anyway in the form of Forest Meditation. No other class stands a chance against an equally skilled, equally geared HR to control a node. A good permastealth TR may be able to survive and contest indefinitely, but that's pretty much it. GFs get absolutely destroyed, CWs get out-controlled via Constricting Arrow and Disruptive Shot and die, some DCs might be able to tank for a bit but they have no ability to win against an HR whatsoever. A GWF might score a fluke win if he gets a chain of lucky crits in to take the HR down quickly, but they generally die quickly too in most cases. The end result is that HRs are node holders in PvP, sitting on 1 or 3.

    That's just the PvP end of things, though. In PvE, a good HR brings respectable DPS to the party, especially with good teamwork. The main problem with HRs in PvE has generally been the number of outright bad HRs out there that mess things up for the rest of the party, drawing too much aggro with Split Shot, then un-controlling adds by running madly around trying to dodge all the stuff they've aggroed, while neatly staying outside the healing range of the DC because they are "archers." Their relative underperformance in more optimized settings is due more to lack of synergy with CWs and GWFs; they are more than adequate and useful already compared to TRs and GFs if played well. So the trick here is to tone down CW and GWF performance in PvE, while making HRs a bit more straightforward to play well.

    Don't rework the class. The tab ability of the HR is because they're supposed to weave in and out of combat.
    As for this part, I believe this is the stated intention of the new third paragon feat path to support this playstyle, while the other two paths support more strict melee and ranged styles. That's not necessarily a bad direction to go. It tends to support how a lot of people are actually currently playing the class better. The HR class may currently (by design even) have a slightly higher skill threshold to get a good mileage out of it than most of the other classes, simply because the melee/ranged interactions are a bit more complex. A lot of people simply like to play "archers"; you see a ton of HRs like that in PvP who don't play their class to its full potential, they just try to sit around and use Aimed Shot or stuff like that. Allowing those guys better tools to play like that isn't necessarily a bad thing for the community as a whole; the ability to switch between melee and ranged mode is obviously still there for more advanced players.

    Seriously who are you ?? I havent read so much bull*sh*t in one text for a long time.

    Everything you say is about each change is taken out of context as if it was the single change. You must be seriously butthurt from HRs in pvp.

    Hrs are lacking in Pve because they mostly are bad --- bro you need a reality check am almost at loss of words to comment that one.

    The total sum of the changes break the class in every single way but maybe Archery in pve (am sure they nerf it some more). Removal of our only functional cc, nerfing the dam in meele path, removal of 10 % deflect in meele, removal of nature tree healing feet, armor adjustment(nm how valid that was its still a huge nerf in healing), removal of nature path and now the nerf to lone wolf the list goes on and on and never seem to end.

    Right now the Hr is a broken class with nothing left but to go archery and stay pve and trust me if warlock hits live as it is now not a single HR lfg will get invite but I guess thats what you are after with that amazingly less then bright text of yours.
  • cindiklecindikle Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 43
    edited July 2014
    macjae wrote: »
    Changing Constricting Arrow is one of the best things they are doing. The way it currently works in PvP, it's far too good of a cc ability in the hands of any half-decent HR player. It is in dire need of some sort of nerf from the current state of affairs. As for stopping cc from other classes, no class gets as many dodges as HRs. Furthermore, if you look at the larger picture, GFs and GWFs are getting their prone chains cut too, and Roar won't root you anymore. CWs are getting the potential for more control, but their damage is being cut by quite a lot.

    It's overall our only real CC. Roots don't stop ranged. And their duration is short in PvP. Also our dodges are short range. It's why we get so many. We have to use it twice to make up the range. And that also means it takes longer to travel the same distance. It has it's ups and downs. After it's change. We don't have any hard CC. Which I can understand to a point. We're a striker class. But this hurts hard for anyone who doesn't want to play as the ever-healing combat spec. Not that Archery is or will be that strong anyway. Maybe have it stun if used past x range. But overall I think a rework to the ability is needed.

    Change Binding Arrow to what Constricting Arrow will become. Upgrade Hindering Shot to Strong Grasping Roots. Change Constricting into a Ward like Thorn Ward. With an area about the same as Constricting Arrow. Have this area stun a single target within it. This allows us to keep our stun but repeated stuns are situational.
    For the same reason, the changes to the armor set bonus, the ability to only have one Thorn Ward in place at a time and now the changes to Aspect of the Lone Wolf are all changes for the better in PvP. Those are all key aspects of why HRs are the strongest PvP class at the moment.

    They're the strongest because they work around some broken healing mechanics that are being removed overall and replaced with a bandaid. Which is fine. The healing needed to be fixed. And I think they did a decent job at it. But at the same time the class lost 20% bonus healing form Nature. Combat lost damage to it's melee abilities. Not even Thorn Ward. The damage abilities most complain about on Combat are untouched.
    I think that a large part of these changes are to do with giving HRs more of their intended role. Currently, HRs are by far the tankiest characters in PvP at least, between their armor set bonus, Aspect of the Lone Wolf giving very high base DR, numerous dodges, ability to cc opponents to mess up their rotations, ability to control a node with Thorn Wards, ranged attacks, and even a get-out-jail-free card if they start going low on health anyway in the form of Forest Meditation. No other class stands a chance against an equally skilled, equally geared HR to control a node. A good permastealth TR may be able to survive and contest indefinitely, but that's pretty much it. GFs get absolutely destroyed, CWs get out-controlled via Constricting Arrow and Disruptive Shot and die, some DCs might be able to tank for a bit but they have no ability to win against an HR whatsoever. A GWF might score a fluke win if he gets a chain of lucky crits in to take the HR down quickly, but they generally die quickly too in most cases. The end result is that HRs are node holders in PvP, sitting on 1 or 3.

    HR's are not tanky. If you land a hit, it will hurt. But they do have high survivability. In Combat spec. Archery wont survive much if anything. At least not at +25'. And a LOT of what you've been stating so far sounds more like you're still comparing them to live values. Combat wont be the pain-in-the-rear to kill anymore. Other specs will still be weak. If things continue as they are. I expect HR's to become DC tier in PvP.
    That's just the PvP end of things, though. In PvE, a good HR brings respectable DPS to the party, especially with good teamwork. The main problem with HRs in PvE has generally been the number of outright bad HRs out there that mess things up for the rest of the party, drawing too much aggro with Split Shot, then un-controlling adds by running madly around trying to dodge all the stuff they've aggroed, while neatly staying outside the healing range of the DC because they are "archers." Their relative underperformance in more optimized settings is due more to lack of synergy with CWs and GWFs; they are more than adequate and useful already compared to TRs and GFs if played well. So the trick here is to tone down CW and GWF performance in PvE, while making HRs a bit more straightforward to play well.

    Split Shot problems I kind of blame on Cryptic. We've been asking for Electric Shot to be viable for a while now. Ideas have been given. The one I'd like to see is have it proc Split the Sky. It would make it's damage slightly higher than Split Shot. As well as require us to precast an ability. Overall I'd say the damage would be similiar in Electric Shot's as long as mobs can be held under StS. And non-Stormwarded HR's have no other option unless they go melee.

    Far as DPS goes. I hope the whiners don't have their way and kill Archery DPS. It should be high. And I hope combat can bring strong dps too. Although I don't see it happening. Considering we bring nothing but dps and weak group buffs that wont see use. I see no problem with us having high dps. Only being outclassed by TR on single target and CW in mass AoE's.

    As for this part, I believe this is the stated intention of the new third paragon feat path to support this playstyle, while the other two paths support more strict melee and ranged styles. That's not necessarily a bad direction to go. It tends to support how a lot of people are actually currently playing the class better. The HR class may currently (by design even) have a slightly higher skill threshold to get a good mileage out of it than most of the other classes, simply because the melee/ranged interactions are a bit more complex. A lot of people simply like to play "archers"; you see a ton of HRs like that in PvP who don't play their class to its full potential, they just try to sit around and use Aimed Shot or stuff like that. Allowing those guys better tools to play like that isn't necessarily a bad thing for the community as a whole; the ability to switch between melee and ranged mode is obviously still there for more advanced players.

    My only problem is that it makes our buff skills more pointless than they already are. If we could be a dps/support hybrid it would justify our dps not needing such a large buff. Say for example a feat that adds stacks to Hawkeye. Instead of an increase to one attack, it can be increased +1 per feat to 6.

    Instead it feels like they're trying to make us sub-par controllers.

    Far as taking out the Tab key for Combat/Archery. I don't mind not needing melee abilities. But I do mind not having a use for my tab key. As I already stated. Our buffs are weak. I don't want to be some super dps/buff machine. But something would be nice. Perhaps something survivability/pvp focused for Archery. Combat doesn't have it quite as bad. Unsure they need all that much help.
  • edited July 2014
    This content has been removed.
  • marnivalmarnival Member Posts: 1,432 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Is it too much to do so many things at once? Probably. However, pointing to Constricting Arrow as the bridge too far is really pushing it.

    Again you prove your lack of understanding of how HR works. If you have one cc that can actually save you from certain cc death its rather a HUGE difference between actually having a chance and having non.
    With the nerf to healing especially for archers but also for trapper path not having any reliable cc together with no cc escape is game breaking so no its not pushing it but I think am talking to some that will only hear its own words and thoughts.
    Because it is too good. 20% additional DR is just crazy strong.
    No its good and it depends on what you start at if you have 40% base or if you have 20% base. But yea it was good but far from crazy good as you had to give up other class feature to have it.
    Something HRs will share with a lot of classes with fewer dodges and less access to defensive gear options than HRs have. And at the current course, melee HRs will still enjoy quite a lot of tankiness. HRs also still retain Disruptive Shot for the purpose of interrupting enemies, which is practically another encounter power.

    If you can tank but cant do dam cant cc cant escape cc what good do you think it does (ask current majority gfs what they think). Dissputive shot is a DAILY using it as an encounter when other classes use their dailys to kill you off mmm once again good trade amazing why I dident think of it as an advantage.

    You tend to forget that when you compare HR to other classes that they have more cc or more cc and anti cc then hrs but you seem very good at looking at HRs from one angle and forget all about the others.........

    Now may i suggest you make a full archer HR go pvp and lfg with it am mighty curious about what your thoughts will be once you tried.............
  • skinlikewinterskinlikewinter Member Posts: 104 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    So much bull$#!+ that I am reading.

    Just to taking one post, but in no way am I ignoring the other HAMSTER others have posted, as I don't want to quote them all to respond to them.

    ahsher wrote: »
    +1 I agree 100%
    Being chain stunned by constricting arrow while taking 7-9k damage in between is death to anyone that cannot escape cc.
    Sitting down while being dps'd by 2 players and popping up full health.


    Seriously!?

    So llet me get this straight, you hate being stunned and taking 7-9K damage? What about CWs who stun/hold you with no way break the cc and can hit you for 9-13k? Or even worse what about a CW who can get you at full health, then get you in their encounter rotation and kill you?

    oh wait maybe you didn't mention this is because you're either a CW or DC? Chances are you're a CW, (I use "chances are," as I'm not fully certain). DCs have the short end of the stick in everything (Devs hate DCs ), GWFs can be immune to it and most other things, TRs can dodge or go stealthy, GFs, well not quite sure if they can block it with their shields or not.
    ahsher wrote: »
    If it were any other class doing it to you, you'd be flaming

    Again about the CWs ability to kill you outright, I'm not flaming, because al that CC is part of their class. I understand this and can be unbiased. They had many fixes to their classes, some good and some bad, but they are called Control Wizards for a reason. Yet You don't see me flaming them/calling nerf and spewing out HAMSTER. Its their job to CC their targets.

    Then again I could be wrong and you're not a CW and just are crying about one of two ccs that a HR has that actually is usable.

    Let me explain the Constricting Arrow to you asit is on LIVE server.

    PROs
    1. Constricting Arrow is a CC that can get you in a series of locks for one encounter.
    2. The devs must have been drunk or high to have overlooked this and gave us a CC that isn't HAMSTER.


    CONs
    1. If you dodge the initial shot, you wont be affected by the following stun locks, my DC, HR and TR have done this vs. other HRs using it.
    2. It's 1 of 2 CCs that HRs can use, that is not total HAMSTER. ( other is Disrupting shot but that's a daily and only lasts max of 1 sec)
    3. Because of the above, we cannot chain you to death and the target can most likely survive the shot if hit.
    4. If timed correctly while being stun locked by CA, you can get a shot in between the locks. (EDIT: not sure if this is still possible or perhaps it was changed recently)


    Now with that said, almost all other classes have some sort of CC that can keep you from attacking.

    1. GWFs have that roar, and knock down that they spam.
    2. GFs have the knock downs that they spam.
    3. CWs, well they have boat load of CCs in their arsenal
    4. TRs have that smokebomb that lasts as long as the CA.
    5. NOt sure if Warlocks will have one or more?

    Why aren't you putting a stink over the above?

    DCs are the exception. Their chains of burning light just sucks HAMSTER$. Chains is pretty weak too, as the victim can still attack and defend use pots if hit by chains if burning light. It's just DC hatred by Devs.

    You're all weak who cry about this ONE CC that is used by HRs. Hell I wouldn't care about the change if the Devs would have better implemented the other CC encounters and made them viable in game instead of being on the "Encounters I had To Take In Order To Use Up My Points and That I Will Never Use" list. Even with the upcoming changes to some of them, they still are HAMSTER, and will continue to remain under-/un-utilized

    Constricting Arrow should not be changed.
    I show player support, by only playing Neverwinter as F2P
  • xtraordinary91xtraordinary91 Member Posts: 323 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2014
    Now with that said, almost all other classes have some sort of CC that can keep you from attacking.

    1. GWFs have that roar, and knock down that they spam.
    2. GFs have the knock downs that they spam.
    3. CWs, well they have boat load of CCs in their arsenal
    4. TRs have that smokebomb that lasts as long as the CA.
    5. NOt sure if Warlocks will have one or more?

    In regards to the above:

    1. Gwf roar will be fixed and will no longer Root come Mod 4, They no longer have any knockdowns unless they spec as Swordmaster and even then, the only knockdown / prone is Crescendo, which is incredibally slow and hard to land against anyone that knows how to dodge.
    2. GFs knockdowns have been removed, the only one they will have now will be one of two daily options (Both in different Paragon Paths). Stuns are practically worthless.
    3. Cw CC will be improved with them slotting orb of implosion, however their damage has been hit incredibally hard.
    4. No TR slots Smoke bomb in PvP in the majority of circumstances. They are Perma stealth node holders.
    5. Warlocks currently have some CC on Test, but I would expect that to be changed as they are primarily a striker.

    DCs get chains, and a couple of dailies.

    PvP as it currently sits is going to drastically change with this new mod. Prones or knockdowns are going to be increasingly rare.
    Desidus@Xtraordinary91
    19.9k PvP Control Wizard
    <Complaints Department>
  • dheffernandheffernan Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 216 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    People who did not think HR's were OP in pvp didn't likely min max their character.

    Evidently neither has any HR I've ever seen in PvP.

    I've been PvPing with my HR myself and I've never had any trouble getting a rival HR off a node, and I certainly haven't noticed any other class having any particular trouble killing me or other HRs. Enemy HRs are typically the least of my worries. I usually come out of a match with more kills than deaths (and tons of assists) but this is mainly due to using Tactics Unworthy of Good Alignments. (Arguably the only viable kind in PvP, but that's another rant.)
    @Venture-1 @Venture from City of Heroes if you remember that far back. Yes, *that* Venture. Yes, I probably trashed your MA arc. For me it was Tuesday.
  • skinlikewinterskinlikewinter Member Posts: 104 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    In regards to the above:

    1. Gwf roar will be fixed and will no longer Root come Mod 4, They no longer have any knockdowns unless they spec as Swordmaster and even then, the only knockdown / prone is Crescendo, which is incredibally slow and hard to land against anyone that knows how to dodge.
    2. GFs knockdowns have been removed, the only one they will have now will be one of two daily options (Both in different Paragon Paths). Stuns are practically worthless.
    3. Cw CC will be improved with them slotting orb of implosion, however their damage has been hit incredibally hard.
    4. No TR slots Smoke bomb in PvP in the majority of circumstances. They are Perma stealth node holders.
    5. Warlocks currently have some CC on Test, but I would expect that to be changed as they are primarily a striker.

    DCs get chains, and a couple of dailies.

    PvP as it currently sits is going to drastically change with this new mod. Prones or knockdowns are going to be increasingly rare.

    These I didn't know and thanks for updating me. With that said...that's going overboard in changing those classes.

    1. GWF should at lest have Roar if they dont have knock down.
    2. GFs should have at least one knockdown and not have it removed it completely
    3. CW hard to say, as I haven't played one since last year, but they should have good CC.
    4. Past week I have seen more TRs use smoke bombs on nodes to cancel enemy encounters and make it easier to kill affected or chance to chase them off node.
    5. meh

    DCs only have Chains. Hammer of faith only pushes back tad bit, and flame strike knocks you down but in pvp its like for a sec. Its also a daily so its not used a much as opposed to encounters.
    I show player support, by only playing Neverwinter as F2P
  • xtraordinary91xtraordinary91 Member Posts: 323 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2014
    These I didn't know and thanks for updating me. With that said...that's going overboard in changing those classes.

    1. GWF should at lest have Roar if they dont have knock down.
    2. GFs should have at least one knockdown and not have it removed it completely
    3. CW hard to say, as I haven't played one since last year, but they should have good CC.
    4. Past week I have seen more TRs use smoke bombs on nodes to cancel enemy encounters and make it easier to kill affected or chance to chase them off node.
    5. meh

    DCs only have Chains. Hammer of faith only pushes back tad bit, and flame strike knocks you down but in pvp its like for a sec. Its also a daily so its not used a much as opposed to encounters.

    No problem on the update.

    1. Roar is currently bugged where it roots for 2 seconds as well as interrupting encounters / cast times. The Root in unintentional, the interrupt is not. It is getting fixed* The devs have stated that they want prones to be more rare (Currently when proned, the proned characters do not benefit from certain defensive stats - deflect)
    2. See above regarding Prones. All currently existing prones excepting dailies on both GWFS and GFs have been replaced with Stuns - Still a CC, just no ignoring deflect whilst afflicted.
    3. CWs will be in a tough spot damage wise, this patch will more than likely move them to a pure supportive role, where a well played CW tag teaming with any other class will be able to lock down somone incredibally well. Some potential should still remain for burstish builds as well.
    4. Sorry I forgot to mention in the top tier of Pvp. You never see any TR slot smoke bomb, unless they are rotated to the Mid zone. Their encounter slots are already filled with Bait and Switch, Shadow Shot and Potb.
    Desidus@Xtraordinary91
    19.9k PvP Control Wizard
    <Complaints Department>
  • rashylewizzrashylewizz Member Posts: 4,265 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2014
    macjae wrote: »
    Changing Constricting Arrow is one of the best things they are doing. The way it currently works in PvP, it's far too good of a cc ability in the hands of any half-decent HR player. It is in dire need of some sort of nerf from the current state of affairs. As for stopping cc from other classes, no class gets as many dodges as HRs. Furthermore, if you look at the larger picture, GFs and GWFs are getting their prone chains cut too, and Roar won't root you anymore. CWs are getting the potential for more control, but their damage is being cut by quite a lot.

    For the same reason, the changes to the armor set bonus, the ability to only have one Thorn Ward in place at a time and now the changes to Aspect of the Lone Wolf are all changes for the better in PvP. Those are all key aspects of why HRs are the strongest PvP class at the moment.

    So far, a lot of these changes are hitting the right spots. Making Constricting Arrow not periodically stun people is an especially important spot to hit. A different rework might have been okay as well, like making it only stun once, reducing the base cooldown, or giving it a charge system similar to Impact Shot or Hindering Shot.

    I think that a large part of these changes are to do with giving HRs more of their intended role. Currently, HRs are by far the tankiest characters in PvP at least, between their armor set bonus, Aspect of the Lone Wolf giving very high base DR, numerous dodges, ability to cc opponents to mess up their rotations, ability to control a node with Thorn Wards, ranged attacks, and even a get-out-jail-free card if they start going low on health anyway in the form of Forest Meditation. No other class stands a chance against an equally skilled, equally geared HR to control a node. A good permastealth TR may be able to survive and contest indefinitely, but that's pretty much it. GFs get absolutely destroyed, CWs get out-controlled via Constricting Arrow and Disruptive Shot and die, some DCs might be able to tank for a bit but they have no ability to win against an HR whatsoever. A GWF might score a fluke win if he gets a chain of lucky crits in to take the HR down quickly, but they generally die quickly too in most cases. The end result is that HRs are node holders in PvP, sitting on 1 or 3.

    That's just the PvP end of things, though. In PvE, a good HR brings respectable DPS to the party, especially with good teamwork. The main problem with HRs in PvE has generally been the number of outright bad HRs out there that mess things up for the rest of the party, drawing too much aggro with Split Shot, then un-controlling adds by running madly around trying to dodge all the stuff they've aggroed, while neatly staying outside the healing range of the DC because they are "archers." Their relative underperformance in more optimized settings is due more to lack of synergy with CWs and GWFs; they are more than adequate and useful already compared to TRs and GFs if played well. So the trick here is to tone down CW and GWF performance in PvE, while making HRs a bit more straightforward to play well.



    As for this part, I believe this is the stated intention of the new third paragon feat path to support this playstyle, while the other two paths support more strict melee and ranged styles. That's not necessarily a bad direction to go. It tends to support how a lot of people are actually currently playing the class better. The HR class may currently (by design even) have a slightly higher skill threshold to get a good mileage out of it than most of the other classes, simply because the melee/ranged interactions are a bit more complex. A lot of people simply like to play "archers"; you see a ton of HRs like that in PvP who don't play their class to its full potential, they just try to sit around and use Aimed Shot or stuff like that. Allowing those guys better tools to play like that isn't necessarily a bad thing for the community as a whole; the ability to switch between melee and ranged mode is obviously still there for more advanced players.

    This is probably the best response I've seen in this thread.

    Nothing else needs to be said.
  • osterdracheosterdrache Member Posts: 480 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    This is probably the best response I've seen in this thread.

    Nothing else needs to be said.

    No its not.
    Its the typical whine packed in long text and proper words. But still a whine.
    It has been said and I say it again: If u look at one change alone, it could be fine. But all changes together will break the class.

    I will say this directly: nearly no one who responses here has any real clue about pvp endgame balance, maybe because u DONT PLAY pvp endgame. Simple, isnt it?

    I am a BiS HR from page one with over 500 matches played. I pug alot, I play coordinated premades alot, too.
    As a matter of fact, u cant balance a class around situations where the player of the class outgears the opponents or has vastly more skill. Almost all whine and nerf threads about the HR comes from people who are either inexpierenced or play another class without any deep understanding of HR. Look in the forum, then u will see I speak the truth!
    U have to balance regaarding equal requirements.
    U cant balance around a situation where a BiS HR kills 3 pve specced 13k gs players.

    Here are my personal matchups against the other classes (ofc all also have r10s, perfects, legendaries and most important equal skill), and my analysis to show u HOW FRAGILE a balanced situation is:

    - vs TRs: they can block the node a looong time. They are not able to kill us HRs because of our bugged set. But we have a hard time killing them either. With the huge set nerf alone, TR will be king of nodes again.

    - vs DC: there are only few these days but the skilled and geared ones, I am not able to kill them. Btw with geared, I mean 50k hp+, just to clarify the gear level we are talking about. I am fine with it btw. DCs should cancel other classes 1vs1.

    - vs GWF: because of thorn ward, we win. If the gwfs is actual a thinking person, if hes timing his ecounters its a hell of a fight and close. With nerfed set, it will be totally balanced.

    - vs GFs: yeah, GFs nust have a hadd time against any class.

    vs CW: if they avoid thorn ward, they are maybe our most dangerous foe. Its a close fight, too. With nerfed set their dots will hurt even more.

    The resume we can draw: the HR is OP since mod3 because of the bugged set. (Remember mod2? Nobody complained about unkillable HRs because the set obeyed HD, but the devs broke it in mod3)
    BUT notice also, the fights are close against HR even WITH the bugged set.
    Just fixing it would solve nearly all current balance issues with this class. Consider also, with an ICD on the set bonus, foredt meditation will be useless in pvp again. Nobody will use it in mod4 and that skill alone was responsible for 80% of the whine threads.

    Just to remind u, I dont talk **** here. I am not the best out there but I played almost all classes in high end pvp since beta. My analysis is based upon my expirience I gained by playing literally thousands of matches against the best players this game to offer.
    I dont say this to brag, but just to clarify that my opinion is not based on some theories I thought out in isolation but on actual testing!
  • rashylewizzrashylewizz Member Posts: 4,265 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2014
    I'd rather someone address the points he brought up directly rather than bring up that you are a "BIS HR" who only played HR for the most part.

    Also, the comparison to other classes are full of excuses and exaggerations. HR can and will beat most classes 1v1 especially on a node for the most part. Are you sure you are a BIS HR?

    By the way, leaderboards are broken and mean little. The leaderboard is a showcase of which person this week has no life and has played the most matches.
  • osterdracheosterdrache Member Posts: 480 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    I'd rather someone address the points he brought up directly rather than bring up that you are a "BIS HR" who only played HR for the most part.

    Also, the comparison to other classes are full of excuses and exaggerations. HR can and will beat most classes 1v1 especially on a node for the most part. Are you sure you are a BIS HR?

    By the way, leaderboards are broken and mean little. The leaderboard is a showcase of which person this week has no life and has played the most matches.

    Here we have it. Another one of those responses. No substance there. U even try to draw artificial thoughts out of my post just to lower the content of my analysis.
    I always try to avoid the situation to build an opinion on personal skill and rather look at the reason behind arguments.
    But I have to ask: how many pvp matches do u play a day? Are u playing against with or against the maxed out players skill- and gearwise?

    I played thousands of matches of pvp with HR, CW, TR, GWF. I dont mention this because I want to show how good (or bad I am) but to point the fact out that my analysis of matchups is based upon this intense testing and expirience.

    And I only do that because over the course of weeks and month in this forum I have read so much bull**** about classes which are just not the case that I have to assume, thise individuals who whine and cry about classes and mechanics have little expirience in maxed-out pvp.

    Example? Here: "HR has 6 dodges! More than any other class. NERF IT!!"
    Such a statement can come only from an very inexpirienced player. The HR dodges have a very very short immunity frame compared to other dodge which makes them very unreliable. VERY! Every HR player can confirm that. I would rather have the three CW dodges, heck even the two TR dodges than these 5-6 unreliable short frame dodges.
    This FACT (do u really want a video proof?) is not acknowledged by most of the people who post about balancing HRs.
    Just ONE example of how players here dont know about mechanics of HRs.

    But these same people are now indirectly responsible with their "feedback" for balancing this class.
    Yeah, gg^^
  • jabsolumjabsolum Member Posts: 109 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    I'd rather someone address the points he brought up directly rather than bring up that you are a "BIS HR" who only played HR for the most part.

    Also, the comparison to other classes are full of excuses and exaggerations. HR can and will beat most classes 1v1 especially on a node for the most part. Are you sure you are a BIS HR?

    By the way, leaderboards are broken and mean little. The leaderboard is a showcase of which person this week has no life and has played the most matches.

    Ok, look at it from this point of view. Please really read all of this and think about it.

    I have played only HR since Mod 3. I wrote a guide months ago on the current "OP" HR Pathfinder Build (I in no way created it, you can see this in the HR forum) and only played the build for a week or so before I realized that it was very unchallenging.

    What nobody understands unless they themselves run this build is that it relies on 2 things for its tankiness, these 2 things for are Forest Meditation and our T2 PVP set which is bugged to heal without Healing Depression.

    If you take away all of the nerfs proposed by the Devs and just keep the nerf to our T2 PVP set, this build becomes very, very beatable in PVP in the current Meta. The biggest mistake that the Devs made was to try and replicate this change with Wilds Medicine and in turn sparked a new mass of QQ'ing. This then resulted in Wilds Medicine being nerfed (which was fair) and then everything else (not fair at all).

    Two things put in place by the Devs (a bugged PVP set not respecting healing depression and an initially much overpowered Wilds Medicine, which has been nerfed a little) has been the cause of over speculation that the HR is some kind of immortal tank.

    Do me a favor; look at my character on the leaderboards. Look at my K/D ratio (keep in mind I only PUG), look at my character sheet and my gear - Rank 8s/9's Perfect Bark/Vorpal. Trust me a little bit and believe me that I am a better than average player and keep in the back of your mind that I have chosen not to use the FotM Pathfinder HR or the Multispam Thorn Ward HR build.

    Aro@jabsolum Do you think I am an overpowered HR that turns the tide in PVP?

    What is overpowered is BIS, intelligent and very experienced players who maximize and utilize every aspect of their builds potential to be extremely competitive in PVP. These are the minority of HR's and the ones that people are crying about. But these people are not just amazing HR's, they will be amazing with any build they wish to dedicate playing.

    All you are doing is adding to the flames that will destroy this class. Once you have achieved that however, the minority of amazing HR's will just move on to the next competitive PVP class. And we rinse and repeat, rinse and repeat, rinse and repeat.
  • lirithiellirithiel Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,482 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Are you sure you are a BIS HR?

    By the way, leaderboards are broken and mean little. The leaderboard is a showcase of which person this week has no life and has played the most matches.

    Do us all a favour love, take Smallbow on 1v1 in his current build which is not the super tanky one everyone is QQing about. I guarantee he will F your S up! I've been unfortunate to meet him a few times in pvp and I did not stand a chance. Take it from me, he knows what he is talking about.

    The fix to the 4-piece pvp set would have made the world of difference before they came up with the ingenious idea of Wilds Medicine, which has caused a whole new headache to try and balance around. Everything since then is just knee-jerk reaction by Cryptic.

    PvP in this game was fast becoming like World of Stuncraft. I'm glad they are toning the CC down across the board but to take away our only form of CC and replace it with a crappy root. Really? The battlefields will be strewn with the bodies of HRs...
    Our pain is self chosen.

    The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
  • mehguy138mehguy138 Member Posts: 1,803 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    I personally hate Constricting Arrow. With all the hate I have in my heart. It's impossible to play against and this is by far one of the most annoying and overpowered CC in the game (on line with Roar and Icy Rays). I glad it's being nerfed. But the outgoing result sucks. You can't just totally remove such a substantial CC that plays a crucial role in HR gameplay. While the power is broken, it's the only thing to rely on in most cases.

    I'd like CA to be a ranged short time knockdown, a silence or stun, whatever NOT a stupid useless AoE (with 5 feet radius? or less?) root.
    M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
  • dheffernandheffernan Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 216 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    I personally hate Constricting Arrow. With all the hate I have in my heart. It's impossible to play against and this is by far one of the most annoying and overpowered CC in the game

    Funny, I just ignore it and it goes away. The HR can't follow it up with another incapacitating attack so it's much less annoying than fighting most other classes, which looks more like CC-CC-CC-dead.
    @Venture-1 @Venture from City of Heroes if you remember that far back. Yes, *that* Venture. Yes, I probably trashed your MA arc. For me it was Tuesday.
  • hamletswordshamletswords Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 1,320 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2014
    I agree, if everything goes through now it's going to really suck to play HR.

    At first I was OK with the constricting arrow thing because we were supposed to get monstrous damage in Archery and monstrous tankiness in Combat.

    Now those things have been nerfed, and now they're going to nerf Aspect of the Lone Wolf? On top of the constricting arrow nerf and nerf to the set-bonus?

    HR is going straight to ****-tier for PVP and will remain so for PVE.
    My Harem: Dawn HR, Erin CW, Piper TR, Zoe GWF
  • myrnymmyrnym Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 80
    edited July 2014
    I agree, if everything goes through now it's going to really suck to play HR.

    At first I was OK with the constricting arrow thing because we were supposed to get monstrous damage in Archery and monstrous tankiness in Combat.

    Now those things have been nerfed, and now they're going to nerf Aspect of the Lone Wolf? On top of the constricting arrow nerf and nerf to the set-bonus?

    HR is going straight to ****-tier for PVP and will remain so for PVE.

    Yep.

    Glad I'm already working on my GWF, I suppose.
  • cryptfoundationcryptfoundation Member Posts: 342 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    The last 2 posts are soo true. Just I'm not gonna go in to end game PVP with my GWF ever I'm gonna do exactly what I did with my HR, make another class to counter both OP classes. I was never the dude who liked to play the OP class but I got sick of Permas and Roarers ruining my game so I created my HR to counter both classes and I can beat any same lvl gear GWF and TR. Keep in mind I'm not using any OP set with just Constricting I can stop the GWF from proning me if he ever catches me and I can avoid DF. But I guess that's gone so on to the next counter class
  • hustin1hustin1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,467 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    4. If timed correctly while being stun locked by CA, you can get a shot in between the locks. (EDIT: not sure if this is still possible or perhaps it was changed recently)

    This is most definitely true in PvE. Just because I hit a fell troll with CA doesn't guarantee that he won't get to knock me flying, but it becomes a lot less likely. I still have to dodge the attack if it looks like the stun won't proc in time.

    I really would like to hear from a Dev: what is the rationale behind the CA change? I don't PvP at all, and so I would like to hear the justification for hurting us this badly in PvE, which is the vast majority of NW content.

    This change to CA is what I would describe at work as "killing an ant with a thermonuclear weapon". A simple solution would be to space out the stuns by an extra 0.5 sec. But then, I'm an engineer and when we need to make a change in a complex system, we do our best to minimize its impact footprint as much as possible--and then test it to death (it being a manned aircraft, after all).
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