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The Real issues with PVP
doriangreigh
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 707 Arc User
There is so much going on about PVP and while there are some inherent balance issues between classes, here is the real problem with PVP:
GEAR! Too many people are so geared up the match is lopsided, then tenacity comes in and further enhances this issue as opposed to reducing it.
Most classes probably wouldn't be near the problem if not for gear/set bonuses and high ranking enchants. The major players out there have R9 and higher and most likely perfect level armor and weapon enchants. Remove these from play and you will see more balanced matches, however ranged will favor melee in this scenario as you just can't balance that issue much.
Can we get some sort of Beta test on having PVP matches that don't rely on gear? You can still give rewards in the form of awesome looking outfits that show the person is uber bad *** in PVP or hand out the ability to buy PVE based gear or something other than feeding the GEAR based beast that is PVP. TRUE PVP is not based on gear its skill, gear just negates the need for skill. Maybe give items that allow for faster point accumulation in a match but get away from GEAR!!
If you are going to keep things as is and leave gear based PVP in the game then bring back a more balanced reward system that only slightly favors the winner. People can't get gear if they can't win matches against people in gear (notice gear pops up a lot here) and thus feeding a never ending cycle of hatred. If a match takes an hour then make the rewards pay out a commensurate sum, if it takes 10 minutes its a lesser sum, then give a flat small bonus to whoever wins thus allowing the loser who gains nothing in Rank prestige but can at least still work towards not being on the losing end of the stick forever because he cant' win matches because his luck is not good enough to get on winning geared teams regularly.
People have valuable time and Cryptic appears to be losing sight of this for one reason or another.
Shorten match times (cap it no more than 10 minutes) or start upping the rewards for longer matches. Perhaps simplify the rewards payout so that even a loser who scores a lot in a match can get glory, say 10 - 20% of the points scored as a glory reward in a match with the winner getting a bonus of 250 glory and maybe have tier rewards such as if a match is less than 10 minutes you get 250 glory if its 10 - 20 minutes you get 500 and if a match lasts an hour then you get 1000 glory in addition to normal rewards.
No body wants to play for nearly an hour grudge matching to death (as exciting as that maybe to some) to only end up with 500 glory at the end, it makes you feel like you just wasted your time and your life.
There is a poll that seems to clearly indicate most people are here for PVE and as such we only do PVP as a side distraction and it needs to be considered as such, it is NOT the primary focus of this game and therefore should not be consuming so much time.
The XP reward for playing PVP needs to come down, running a couple of PVP matches will nearly level you out of the area you want to be in for PVE and thus prevent you from enjoying both a PVP match and the rewards of group skirmishes or dungeons. Once you level past a skirmish you can't experience it again which is unfortunate. This makes me almost not want to PVP at all in lower levels as just two matches might just push me out of being able to enjoy running a skirmish. At least a Dungeon I can manually walk into with a group but you can't do that with skirmishes and there maybe rewards that drop in a skirmish I might want but will have to farm a bit for.
To promote players who get into this just for PVP (and to give more incentive to PVE players) maybe instead of gear start giving out AD (not large sums but some sort of AD reward). This way people can PVP and earn AD to upgrade their enchants, especially since it costs 100,000AD to get 1 mark of potency that would get you from a rank R7 to a R8 (its 50k [25k x 2]) to rank up a 6 to a 7. Or in the alternative maybe start handing out enchantments for rewards to assist in this endeavor.
Better still, since this game has made PVP specific gear and since it seems to want to remain gear based, how about making PVP only enchants (PVE enchants won't work in PVP gear and vice versa) and make them purchasable with glory. Truly competitive PVP players shouldn't balk too much at this as they will have an edge to build up too that is probably cheaper than buying or making them as it stands now. This would also allow everyone to eventually build up to this level of play (albeit back to probably having two outfits). In theory that would stop the Pay to Win aspect of PVP since no one who only does PVP could possibly build up the level of enchants to R9 and higher by just PVPing since you'd only earn a max of 8k per day and 16k on the day you have the lord protector PVP, slightly more if you also do GG.
Anyone agree or disagree with this?
GEAR! Too many people are so geared up the match is lopsided, then tenacity comes in and further enhances this issue as opposed to reducing it.
Most classes probably wouldn't be near the problem if not for gear/set bonuses and high ranking enchants. The major players out there have R9 and higher and most likely perfect level armor and weapon enchants. Remove these from play and you will see more balanced matches, however ranged will favor melee in this scenario as you just can't balance that issue much.
Can we get some sort of Beta test on having PVP matches that don't rely on gear? You can still give rewards in the form of awesome looking outfits that show the person is uber bad *** in PVP or hand out the ability to buy PVE based gear or something other than feeding the GEAR based beast that is PVP. TRUE PVP is not based on gear its skill, gear just negates the need for skill. Maybe give items that allow for faster point accumulation in a match but get away from GEAR!!
If you are going to keep things as is and leave gear based PVP in the game then bring back a more balanced reward system that only slightly favors the winner. People can't get gear if they can't win matches against people in gear (notice gear pops up a lot here) and thus feeding a never ending cycle of hatred. If a match takes an hour then make the rewards pay out a commensurate sum, if it takes 10 minutes its a lesser sum, then give a flat small bonus to whoever wins thus allowing the loser who gains nothing in Rank prestige but can at least still work towards not being on the losing end of the stick forever because he cant' win matches because his luck is not good enough to get on winning geared teams regularly.
People have valuable time and Cryptic appears to be losing sight of this for one reason or another.
Shorten match times (cap it no more than 10 minutes) or start upping the rewards for longer matches. Perhaps simplify the rewards payout so that even a loser who scores a lot in a match can get glory, say 10 - 20% of the points scored as a glory reward in a match with the winner getting a bonus of 250 glory and maybe have tier rewards such as if a match is less than 10 minutes you get 250 glory if its 10 - 20 minutes you get 500 and if a match lasts an hour then you get 1000 glory in addition to normal rewards.
No body wants to play for nearly an hour grudge matching to death (as exciting as that maybe to some) to only end up with 500 glory at the end, it makes you feel like you just wasted your time and your life.
There is a poll that seems to clearly indicate most people are here for PVE and as such we only do PVP as a side distraction and it needs to be considered as such, it is NOT the primary focus of this game and therefore should not be consuming so much time.
The XP reward for playing PVP needs to come down, running a couple of PVP matches will nearly level you out of the area you want to be in for PVE and thus prevent you from enjoying both a PVP match and the rewards of group skirmishes or dungeons. Once you level past a skirmish you can't experience it again which is unfortunate. This makes me almost not want to PVP at all in lower levels as just two matches might just push me out of being able to enjoy running a skirmish. At least a Dungeon I can manually walk into with a group but you can't do that with skirmishes and there maybe rewards that drop in a skirmish I might want but will have to farm a bit for.
To promote players who get into this just for PVP (and to give more incentive to PVE players) maybe instead of gear start giving out AD (not large sums but some sort of AD reward). This way people can PVP and earn AD to upgrade their enchants, especially since it costs 100,000AD to get 1 mark of potency that would get you from a rank R7 to a R8 (its 50k [25k x 2]) to rank up a 6 to a 7. Or in the alternative maybe start handing out enchantments for rewards to assist in this endeavor.
Better still, since this game has made PVP specific gear and since it seems to want to remain gear based, how about making PVP only enchants (PVE enchants won't work in PVP gear and vice versa) and make them purchasable with glory. Truly competitive PVP players shouldn't balk too much at this as they will have an edge to build up too that is probably cheaper than buying or making them as it stands now. This would also allow everyone to eventually build up to this level of play (albeit back to probably having two outfits). In theory that would stop the Pay to Win aspect of PVP since no one who only does PVP could possibly build up the level of enchants to R9 and higher by just PVPing since you'd only earn a max of 8k per day and 16k on the day you have the lord protector PVP, slightly more if you also do GG.
Anyone agree or disagree with this?
Post edited by doriangreigh on
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Comments
People in terrible greens/blues/lower level enchants shouldn't even be facing people in BiS. Gear is part of the fun on NW PvP, your build comes into the equation just as much as how capable you are. I think it's great that you can change your gear setup to make up for where you feel you're weaker or stronger in terms of your gameplay.
However, as I said above, the problem isn't gear itself. It's that mathchmaking doesn't differentiate between the haves and have nots. 5-10k players shouldn't be running into games with 15-20k players. Ever.
If you want to play a game based purely off skill, play Chess. Most modern PvP games have an aspect of gear and build strongly integrated into them, especially in MMOs.
10 mins is too short. There should be a general 30 min limit, like GG PvP and a separate queue that has no time limit and bigger rewards. This would also be a mandatory queue if you have 3+ people in your group. As for the poor glory reward in long games, sometimes, a good fight is it's own reward.
Strongly disagree. There should be absolutely no AD reward of any kind for PvP. Only PvP specific rewards, ie, glory the seals. I'm sure I'm not the only person to have encountered people who never even jump into the arena and when asked why "I'm just here for daily AD". I've had guildies encounter an entire 4man guild premade who did this and ruined his PvP game as he was left 1v5. Pathetic.
Learn from other games, like OP says have a 30 min cap (i dont agree on the 10 min cap, its too short), which ever team leads after 30 mins, its game over and victory.
Enchant ranks has too much influence on the game. The difference between a rank 10 and a rank 5 is too great. And new players will never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever catch up to the players that have played for a year, because yeah, thats how long it will take you now to get full rank 9, all 3 boons to max, and i can just imagine a new boon-gind-snooze-fest system will come in mod4.
I know for a fact that 90% of quality PvPers dont play the game anymore. Now an mmo will allways have old players leave and new players join, but the endless grind and pay to win method it takes to get fully geared and prepared for PvP it getting worse and worse and new players will give up, which will eventually leave no pvpers. So to sum up, old players are leaving faster then new players are joining because of the boon-farming-p2w fest it requires to get geared.
Now i understand this is a buisniss and all, but the fact is that the population of this game has dropped insanely and its not a coincidence that the ZEN exchange is at 500, it basically forces people to buy ZEN with real money which is exactly what they are trying to do with the last remaining drop of players left. The player base have been suggesting to Cryptic for over a year now some changes that needs to be done to make this game awesome, and with every module that comes out, the opposite has happened and the players are the only ones suffering. With every module, more and more players are leaving.
I would say, PvP is as dead as it can get. We asked how the matchmaking system works, to help them tweak it, but they wouldent tell because they were afraid someone would steal the mecanics, be not afraid, nobody wants something that awful. PvPers that stayed for the awesome combat system has left long ago. Left are only those who are truly addicted to their characters and cant leave a years work and money spent, behind.
PvE is so easy and mecanic less its pointless to do it. Zerging is no tactic and the variety of classes will never be needed since they will always be one class that does more dps then the other. Since all fights in this game is a dps race, it will never change. Right now CWs and GWFs are the biggest AoE dpsers in this game. Next mod it will clearly be another DPS king, but it wont change stacking classes since there will always be one king. Unless the content changes mecanics, specific classes will always be stacked.
Also with every module the characters get stronger with better stats, boons, gear and much higher GS, while the content stays exactly the same, aka it just gets easier and easier. How easy can it get before its just too boring? As little as i PvE, i have done all the content countless of times and it really offers no challenge. So im guessing PvE is dying as fast as PvP.
So to OP i tell you this, you can make a 100 of these threads, most of them have great points but nothing is ever going to happen.
This made me LOL IRL
The best part about a system like this is the PVP in this game would actually balance itself out. As all the hard core PVP players will be up at the top GS lvls where they get to play against themselves. The bulk of the pvp population would meet in the middle GS lvls with the high end guys gearing down and the low end guys trying to gear themselves up to join them.
The last part of a fix like this would be to have weapon and armer enchantments have a weighted gear score number.
for instance lvl 1-20 max gem: R5
lvl 21-30 max gem: R6
lvl 31-40 max gem: R7
lvl 41-50 max gem: R8
lvl 51-max: Max
make the playing field fair for experts and beginners alike... Make more people want to play!
They do have a timer (recharge time). It is just that the players are able tweak their spec to greatly reduce the timer.
Ebony (Whisperknife)
red comments added
The same ELO system or whatever is being used will still work, and matches will be alot more balanced in terms of gear. It will still achieve the same goals as the ELO system: distinguishing good players from money geared/no skill players, all while giving everyone a fair chance.
Say someone with no skill spends to get themselves up to 18k GS. They will end up on the bottom of the 14k+ GS bracket leaderboard.
Someone new with 11k GS with lots of skill will end up on top of the leaderboard in their pvp bracket, and will eventually gear up enough to enter the 14k+ GS bracket. Given that they have alot of skill, they will end up higher on the leaderboard than the 18k GS person who bought their way there = achieving what the current ELO system was meant to do.
TL;DR. Add in GS pvp brackets. No need to implement a whole new rating system
Butters TR PVP
So far, this seems a far better solution than taking the gear out of the equation. I'd rather have a slightly longer queue time than enter a heavily one-sided match (everyone likes a challenge, but not to the extent that you may be declared insane).
However, they need to be careful how they implement it. People may start queuing in without gear and then equipping it once in the instance. So maybe, implement Gear locks. I know this will be a hated suggestion, considering others are suggesting quick swaps for equipment. But I feel this may be necessary if they ever implement GS tiers. So maybe to accomodate those that like to swap gear based on opponents, maybe the Queue notification will show you the classes on the enemy team and you get a chance to swap your gear prior to accepting (again, will lead to longer queue times)
I don't mind the possible exploit of people unequipping and requipping gear. You've gotta be a REALLY BIG LOSER to want to enter and try to dominate a pvp bracket lower than what you're supposed to be in. Doing that will just announce to the world who the losers and no skill people are. Its like a highschool kid dressing up as a kindergarten in order to be the top of a kindergarten class.
In the end everyone's goal is to get into the top GS bracket, so i don't think it really matters much in the long run.
Butters TR PVP
by doing that you will remove the factor of max geared premades/partial premades looking for undergeared pugs for easy wins.
That is what is killing the PVP game all the premades looking for easy wins.
They know 9 out of 10 game will be played against under geared pugs and thats what they are going for.easy wins.
The new players sign up to check out the PVP plays 1 game and NEVER come back.
It just bleeds any new players and all your left with is elit premade pug crushers ruining PVP.
If you make a solo queue it will be the one almost everyone uses.
The queue we have now will works for premades and then if you sign up in the premades que at least you will know what you are getting into.
Eventually have a more in depth queue system for gear score and/or elo(if elo ever works)But for now to keep the game fun and stop the bleeding MAKE A SOLO QUEUE!
I can assure you, overgeared premades hate fighting pugs as much as pugs hate fighting them.
What is fun about capping 3 bases and waiting it out? At least before you could quit the match if you saw there was no competition, without leaver pentaly, remake and try again.
Gear is only half the equation. If you're rocking 12 CON on your GWF and you wear PvP gear it doesn't nearly make up for your squishiness.
It's because you can't have a point setup for PvP and PvE. If people were allowed to dual spec PvP/PvE then their 12 CON glass cannon would be fine in PvE, then when the queue for PvP they can swap out to their maxed CON tankier spec and hopefully, enjoy PvP more than they would if they were oneshotted repeatedly.
Being able to have specific ability rolls and feats for both options would allow people to enjoy the game more, imo.
I would say otherwise, at least for now, the PvE content is so easy that PvP specs in PvP gear can easily complete it. Having a pure PvE spec simply makes it faster.
Here, you are correct. Aside from tenacity and set bonuses there is little to differentiate between high end PvP and PvE gear. Both are equally viable in PvE if you aren't going for five CN runs in an hour.
I'll gladly take the "inferior" PVE CW instead.
You know, I wish people would stop referring to the PVE content as "easy". The content itself is not "easy". You have simply outgrown the content. That's fine. When you say the content itself is easy, you are subtly insulting players who are still learning, and struggling with, how to conquer it.
Part of the reason is partial-premades are paired up together against puggers constantly, so almost every match is some sort of premade against all pugs.
At the very least partial premades should be put on opposite sides. It's a simple solution that would go a long way to helping out.
Any sensible CW would swap their encounter bar... it's not a case on PvE vs PvP in this case. It's the CW being a idiot.
Yes, killing 10 million adds with AOE is difficult if you are not specced properly for it. Take 3 PVP CW's (if there are even 3 of them left), the ones with high CON and no ArPen but 40k HP, and put them into the Draco fight. See what happens.