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Really Worried About HR Viability In PVP Come MOD 4
jabsolum
Member Posts: 109 Arc User
To start, if you read this title and thought "Wait, what the **** is this guy on about?"
Consider these points. Let's dispel some myths.
1. The only viable HR for contesting in PVP at the moment is a Pathfinder who uses a bugged PVP set that gives far to many heals when using Forest Meditation. This HR also has a 20% bonus to healing from the Nature Path. Both of these things will be gone when Mod 4 goes live.
2. This build was only good at 1 thing and that was contesting againts melee fighters. Who never think to stop attacking while we have 100% deflect from the daily Meditation which in turn grants heals from the bugged set.
3. This build has a major weakness that no one cares to talk about which is that it can easily be countered by an equally geared CW who focuses on spike damage, control and distance striking. THIS is a major point.
4. The only way this build could sometimes give said equally geared CW a run for their money was by utilising our only viable CC, the encounter Constricting Arrow. This has been reworked for MOD 4 and will no longer interupt it's target.
So to sum this up, going into MOD 4 we lose,
1. 20% Healing for Nature Path Feat
2. Healing bonus from our PVP set (it will still be there but will triger less then 1/2 as much) so, being generous let us minus another 30% healing.
3. Our only interupet encounter besides a daily.
So a total of 50% less effective at healing and no way to escape or prempt a control power.
Now what do we gain from MOD 4?
An Archer path who was only keeping up with the damage the current CW can do in a PVE setting, which due to complaints has already had it's damaged nerfed in the test server. In PVP and PVE this path will have no effective CC or CC escape and no effective healing.
A Melee Path that needs to be close quarters to deal mediocre damage with decent healing due to a Teir 3 feat, which by the way has also been nerfed and again no effective CC or CC escape.
A Trapper Path whose amazing control powers can stop people from running around while he hits them with a minimal amount of damage compared to the above paths. Once more, no CC Escape.
So other than looking like a complaint, what is the purpose of this post? Well, I would like to ask more HR's to be vocal in the preview thread about these changes and help me to get the DEVS to at least rework a few of these things before it goes live. I don't want to hear about how we should have to deal with it because my >insert class here< has too. This is not a post about nerfing classes, I have never and would never request a class to be toned down, only tuned up.
To anyone who does not play an HR and thinks that this class is overpowered please add one of three things to your post, so that your POV has merit.
1. A video of an HR on live now fighting an equally geared and equally talented CW and winning easily. Then just for laughs duel again without the HR using the PVP set bonus.
2. A video of the Pathfinder build above beating a GWF of equal gear and talent without the current set bonus provided by the bugged PVP set.
3. A MOD 4 Melee focused HR without the bugged set bonus and instead using the Wilds Medicine feat againts the classes above and winning decisivley.
Finally I know that there are many HR's on the top of the leaderboard using the above mentioned build but please, please remember that most if not all of them are geared better than 95% of the player base. Also they are all part of the best and most competitive guilds. Couple this with the broken match making and the broken PVP set and we are in all sorts of circumstantial OPness. Now before MOD 3 HR's were also overpowed due to things that were nerferd in MOD 3.
The HR (apart from this paticular build with no MOD 4 changes) is truly lackluster in PVP and needs a buff. The overall perception of this class being overpowered is due to broken feats and gear that soon will no longer exist.
Consider these points. Let's dispel some myths.
1. The only viable HR for contesting in PVP at the moment is a Pathfinder who uses a bugged PVP set that gives far to many heals when using Forest Meditation. This HR also has a 20% bonus to healing from the Nature Path. Both of these things will be gone when Mod 4 goes live.
2. This build was only good at 1 thing and that was contesting againts melee fighters. Who never think to stop attacking while we have 100% deflect from the daily Meditation which in turn grants heals from the bugged set.
3. This build has a major weakness that no one cares to talk about which is that it can easily be countered by an equally geared CW who focuses on spike damage, control and distance striking. THIS is a major point.
4. The only way this build could sometimes give said equally geared CW a run for their money was by utilising our only viable CC, the encounter Constricting Arrow. This has been reworked for MOD 4 and will no longer interupt it's target.
So to sum this up, going into MOD 4 we lose,
1. 20% Healing for Nature Path Feat
2. Healing bonus from our PVP set (it will still be there but will triger less then 1/2 as much) so, being generous let us minus another 30% healing.
3. Our only interupet encounter besides a daily.
So a total of 50% less effective at healing and no way to escape or prempt a control power.
Now what do we gain from MOD 4?
An Archer path who was only keeping up with the damage the current CW can do in a PVE setting, which due to complaints has already had it's damaged nerfed in the test server. In PVP and PVE this path will have no effective CC or CC escape and no effective healing.
A Melee Path that needs to be close quarters to deal mediocre damage with decent healing due to a Teir 3 feat, which by the way has also been nerfed and again no effective CC or CC escape.
A Trapper Path whose amazing control powers can stop people from running around while he hits them with a minimal amount of damage compared to the above paths. Once more, no CC Escape.
So other than looking like a complaint, what is the purpose of this post? Well, I would like to ask more HR's to be vocal in the preview thread about these changes and help me to get the DEVS to at least rework a few of these things before it goes live. I don't want to hear about how we should have to deal with it because my >insert class here< has too. This is not a post about nerfing classes, I have never and would never request a class to be toned down, only tuned up.
To anyone who does not play an HR and thinks that this class is overpowered please add one of three things to your post, so that your POV has merit.
1. A video of an HR on live now fighting an equally geared and equally talented CW and winning easily. Then just for laughs duel again without the HR using the PVP set bonus.
2. A video of the Pathfinder build above beating a GWF of equal gear and talent without the current set bonus provided by the bugged PVP set.
3. A MOD 4 Melee focused HR without the bugged set bonus and instead using the Wilds Medicine feat againts the classes above and winning decisivley.
Finally I know that there are many HR's on the top of the leaderboard using the above mentioned build but please, please remember that most if not all of them are geared better than 95% of the player base. Also they are all part of the best and most competitive guilds. Couple this with the broken match making and the broken PVP set and we are in all sorts of circumstantial OPness. Now before MOD 3 HR's were also overpowed due to things that were nerferd in MOD 3.
The HR (apart from this paticular build with no MOD 4 changes) is truly lackluster in PVP and needs a buff. The overall perception of this class being overpowered is due to broken feats and gear that soon will no longer exist.
Post edited by jabsolum on
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Comments
As for the melee I don't get what you mean, I have seen gwf and gf out melee by a HR, they can just spin around a player and deal 10k dmg...I don't like seeing classes nerfed, I don't use CW but was still against there nerf but in HR case I'm glad because they are way too strong atm.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Hi, thanks for replying.
I have seen an HR melee a GWF also, but the point is that this is with an already known and soon to be changed bugged PVP set and a 20% healing feat that will no longer be availible in MOD 4
On the test server we are nothing like we are now and have only suffered nerfs for our feedback and the misinformed posts of people with different clasees. I'll give the DEV's one nod for giving the Melee Path a little increase in damage.
The HR above that you mention will not exist after MOD 4, whats left is 3 different paths that have little synergy unlike we have in the paths now.
The Archery tree is currently deals too much damage, but it has no defenses, so I think it's pretty balanced.
The Melee tree is underpowered, it provides nothing but Wild Medicine, which seems to be bugged on preview - it heals me for the same amount despite the number of stacks I have. The deflect feat is a joke, life steal sucks because HRs won't deal any damage in melee tree. After the next update, I'll see if Careful Attack will proc twice every time it hits with the capstone bonus.
Haven't tested the last tree, seems strange, CC is kinda too hard, but the lack of damage and survivability...
I don't want HR to be weak, all classes should be balanced but just have different strengths and weaknesses, all able to beat each other just depending on the players skill. I hope HR is still good in mod 4 but also killable because some just don't seem to be able to die no matter how many players they have on them.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I think virus means you are trolling us (sarcastic) so he is speechless.
In MOD4 you must also consider that GFs and GWFs prones will be gone. One of the "top PvP classes", the GWF, is getting a considerable nerf in survivability and will be easier to kite.
Even if, as you say, HRs get a slight nerf, they will still be, most likely, far from being uneffective in PvP. Just my guess.
About the lack of other viable paths...well, every top PvP class is powerful only if using the best setup-spec-gear-rotation. That goes for GWFs, HRs, TRs exc...
Just consider that the other classes will be nerfed too. And the ones to be buffed will most likely be the weaker ones. I'm quite curious to see if with MOD4 the devs will eventually find a little balance in both PvP and PvE. Would be nice to have a way to test PvP on preview. Like some "practicing" PvP bots, to at least test viable strategies and rotations.
I really don't agree. The Melee version may be now, but it has already seen a nerf since its initial release and will most likely be nerfed futher before or after release. In any case having one path that is viable goes againts what the DEVS were trying to give us with this update which is a diverse way to play the HR. They have not done this as of yet.
As for you being a dedicated Cleric, I think any changes that benefit any class could be looked at as a bit OP until your class recieves a much needed rework/buff.
Maybe I am just old but "I think virus means you are trolling us (sarcastic) so he is speechless" makes no sense to me and I will stick to my original comment or more simply put. If their is nothing they can add that adds value to this conversation then lay off the keys.
I'm glad you agree, I really dont understand how we can be good after all these changes or why people cannot understand that I am not refering to the HR on live now, but the new MOD 4 HR.
Agreed. I'm also very speechless at this thread. I wish I had caught it on video. But today I played Preview with an HR friend. First she tried a non-Wild's Medicine spec against my 13K perma/no enchants on me whatsoever... She lost quickly. I asked her to spec into the would-be Mod4 META and she destroyed me. I then switched to my 16.8K Combat TR. We have equal skill/gear and it was a stalemate.
Conclusion: No difference to the results of our 1v1 on LIVE server. Always a stalemate with her putting a bit more damage output, but both of us outheal our damage.
TL;DR
Pathfinder HR is currently OP on live because of a broken set. Mod4 HR is still OP because of a broken feat.
Don't mislead people. Look at your class. Now look at the DC/GF/CW. You didn't get the short end of the stick. Stop whining.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
I am not whining Rustlord, I find it very immature of you to post such a statement. I am providing a point of view like you are however I am trying to do it with tact and am making valid points.
Your example above proves that one feat is OP in the melee spec, and come on, we all know it will be nerfed. Right now, we still lose our CC from Contricting Arrow that is a life saver againts a CW, and the other 2 paths have no healing feat and lose all of their unique feats if they try to take Wilds Medicine.
We are not being buffed or gaining anything other than another FOTM build.
Rustlord, sorry if it sounds offensive, but reading your post it feels that you complain because your e-peen became smaller for you couldn't kill a HR as a defensive non-damaging TR. It's like my friend and his GWF with 2k power, almost zero arp and crit whines that it takes forever to kill someone. Yes, it is. Because you shouldn't be able to kill as a defensive tank. Any character with burst damage will kill that wild HR easily. Bring CW with you and it's over.
1vs1 is screwed in Neverwinter and it shows nothing.
but u want HR to have option to choose between all path to choose for PVP.
which is itself is wrong, every class have a single path which is best for PVP , 1 FOR DPS burst dmg and 1 for hybrid settings or mixture of both or support settings , so u keep telling HR not able to survive is PVP in mod 4 is wrong , u have to respec to the best path available for u in PVP and use it , but u want to be DPS burst dmg player with tankiness , which remove the purpose of balancing .
even GWF is being nerfed for players to choose between destro and sent .
as ur point may be correct for other paths but a single path for PVP give u option to be balanced with other classes.
CW is also being nerfed so dont say that long range CW with single target burst dmg will be able to kill u easily.
I agree. You guys cant have it all!
Santa Claus --GF
Gargamel --CW
The OP does have some valid points. Melee HR builds suck against any competent ranged opponent, and a well-built Burst Renegade CW can defeat them better than 50% of the time on live even with Constricting Arrow messing up rotations. The new Archer path is a 100% classic Glass Cannon, and they just don't work in NW PvP. The Trapper path has some interesting CC but no DPS, no healing, and not much defence.
There are a lot of misconceptions about HR and unfortunately they seem to have formed the basis of the rework.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
.....what? That's just death for anyone in the intersection of them.
Probably because you weren't geared. I've never lost so little from an ice knife against a CW that could damage me with its encounters.
Or they're built like a brick wall and their offensive stats equate to slapping you with a fish, in which case they're just like a brick wall GF except with no CC to apply against you.
And with that build, unhelpful for anything but holding a node indefinitely, which is neat and all for getting wins, but is pretty boring.
Competent and decently geared CWs provide the biggest challenge to me. Constricting Arrow and running the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> away are pretty much my only hope, as I'm just spamming piddly arrows when frozen to the ground. I can't do enough damage between CC to solo-kill them, and without Constricting Arrow, it'll be totally laughable.
Top-geared GWFs can annihilate me, but less than that, it's a pretty even stalemate most of the time as long as I'm on my dodge and kite game. TRs are similar to that, except they have more trouble killing me, and it takes forever to track them down to do damage.
DCs are either unkillable, take awhile to kill, or are pushovers. Top-end GFs can kill me, but otherwise lock me down with CC or eventually die solo.
The only time I'm "unkillable" is when there isn't a heavy CC class (GF, GWF or CW) or when they're under-geared.
So, for Mod 4, it appears that GWFs are great in Damage and CC, still, and now "just pretty decent" in Survivability. HRs seem to be good at only one of those three categories at a time (not even great), and thus pale in dramatic comparison.
GFs being broken doesn't mean HR needs to be nerfed. It means GF needs to be buffed.
What spec were you using? Were you using the frost ray one that will quickly give that HR a 10 stack?
As you were replied to as well. You must of been under their gear level to do such little damage.
People like you who bring such nonconstructive feedback should be banned. I can't think of a single post of people saying GF's don't need buffs. This is very well known. And HR's are not the problem with GF's. The only thing they had over GF's was their ability to self heal and avoid damage.
This thread isn't about that. Your post has no place here.
This thread overall sums up my worries as a HR for Mod 4.
PvE Archery - Right now I am lucky to make #2 on paingiver if there is more than 1 GWF/CW in the group. We bring no utility to the group. How much damage over other classes must we do to be viable and balanced? If it's just 20% or less. Then why bother? When a CW or GWF bring loads of utility over us. All we bring is high sustained damage. Not even burst. People just keep crying about it. This isn't WoW where all the classes have been normalized and expected to do the same damage. Each one has it's use. A striker does damage. You wont be seeing 4 HR+1GF/GWF groups. The mobs will be running all over and stuff wont die very fast. You will still want a balanced group. At most you'll want 2. Going over that will be overkill. I've heard we can do 30% more than a GWF. I have yet to hear how we fair vs CW in dungeons. I would assume they would still do mostly fine as they can always hit more targets than us. Groups will still almost always want at least one.
PvE Combat - Sounds like it's dead. Damage has gone down. Survivability is better for PvE and not reliant on a PvP bonus. But I don't see it's damage holding out. As just like the Archery tree, all they will bring to a group is damage. At best they can try to hold their own in AoE.
PvE Trapper - In the back of my mind this tree just sounds like it SHOULD be strong. But I have yet to hear much positive.
PvP Archery - Yes, letting the HR land a long range Aimed Shot will hurt. Did you know any damage will cancel the cast? Going out of view? Did you know that if he does any damage worth mentioning he will probably die to any burst rotation? At best you'll see these guys in guild groups where they can be protected. Much like you'd see for a Marksmen in LoL. At most they'll be strong at the start of Mod 4. Once people get used to them they'll go back to being a weak pick.
PvP Combat - Reduced damage, reduced survivability. Given currently it works off a bugged and broken system. It needs more damage IMO. Both for PvE and PvP. Slightly lower survaiblity, but more damage to make up for it. OP overall stated how this tree will turn out if it his live as it is now.
PvP Trapper - Same as PvE. I've heard little. None of it really all that great. I wonder if we'll still be seeing hybrid builds between Combat and Trapper. Enough to get Wild Medicine and Ancient Roots. This overall should be as close as you can get to the current PvP build. Trading some survaiblity for CC. But will still be a pain to catch and kill under a node.
This. If it is true, then all QQ concerning PvP is obsolete.
We tried my 19,5K PvP GWF with 4 purple companions and a ~15k perma TR against a 16k HR on preview in OPvP. I can still remember his insane laughter, while he was crushing us. This was before the latest patch, so I cant say, how much it toned HR down, but tbh he was insanely OP.
IF a build with 4 TWs at the same time is really doable in mod 4, then there is no question, who will be king of the hill in PvP. On live combat HRs with 2 TW up at the same time are extremly strong, so with 4 TWs a BIS HR will be able to defend a node against any class.
Even on the current live patch, this is doable (but more like 3 TWs). They use an originally PVE trick to get massive cooldowns with Armor of the Royal guard with some feats and a plaguefire. It just destroys gwfs, even now. Would really like to see a change to only allow 1 thorn ward at a time.