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Keeping the CW Changes in Perspective
ironzerg79
Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,942 Arc User
For all those guys who claim to have played a CW since launch, let me ask you a few questions?
Do you guys remember when Singularity, Shard of the Endless Avalanche and Sudden Storm couldn't crit?
Do you guys remember when NO ONE used Shard because "everyone" on this forum was adamant about it sucking?
Do you guys remember when Armor Penetration applied to basically NONE of our powers?
Do you guys remember when a lot of our feats didn't even affect the powers they were suppose to?
Do you guys remember when the Eye of the Storm use to have a 30 sec ICD?
Do you guys remember when we WEREN'T kings of DPS, but slotting spells to build AP fast and all we did was chain Singularity?
Do you guys remember when all we did in most dungeons was shield burst and repel mobs off cliffs?
Do you guys remember when they then "fixed" Shield, Entangling Force and Chill Strike from generating AP per target hit instead of per cast (which was suppose to kill the class)?"
Do you remember when we got the MoF paragon path, and the boards were adamant that it was completely worthless, doing less than half the damage of a Spellstorm (which was proven false)?
The point being the CW class has seen some pretty dramatic changes over the past year, and nothing has killed the class. Of course we've seen plenty of hyperbole every time changes were announced, and after the patches, it went back to business as usual.
I think some people here are just mad that EZ Mode is being taken away from them. In their current state, CW's trivialize content. In PvE, they are so far ahead of all the other classes, it's not even funny. Going into a dungeon with a geared CW? Great...your job is to pick up loot while the CW blows everything up.
And what are you asking for? Oh! Just buff the other classes to the level of the CW. Sounds easy, right? Even if that was possible without totally trashing all semblance of balance, then you've just trivialize the entire game for everyone.
Oh! Just make the content harder! Right, and then people just bring MORE CW's to the dungeons and more people get left behind.
Oh! Just make fights that focus on bigger enemies and less adds. Right, let's be honest here...if there's a fight with more than one target, a CW is still going to dominate that fight...and taking it a step further, do we dumb down the game so there's nothing more exciting that bashing a single big sack of hitpoints? No.
The point is, the dynamics of the game are changing. The GROUP is going to be more important. D&D has always been team game, and we're ironically at the point right now where Wizards are like the 3rd Edition Wizard, where after a few levels, they were so powerful they trivialize the roles of any other class in the party (well, most casters did, Clerics and Druids, too). It just makes the game "not fun" for anyone else.
It's not about YOU. It's not about YOU topping the Paingiver chart, or being "teh besstest!!111" DPS. It's about how do all the players come together in a cooperative MMO and have a good time. And if you'd take some time to dig through and understand the other changes they're making to class, you'll see that's what they're trying to do.
It's not about "nerf the CW, make them pay to play a Warlock!" That's an incredibly ignorant statement. It's about creating a game that EVRYONE can enjoy, regardless of the class they want to play. If for some reason you thought CW's were going to last in perpetuity, being able to double or triple the damage done of any other class, you're living in a true fantasy world.
And finally, keep in mind that Mod 4 is still a few weeks away. None of the changes are on Live yet. Nothing has technically been nerfed. So keep testing, keep posting feedback in the thread, but make it constructive. I can guarantee you the Devs are ignoring posts that just rehash the "Oooh, I lost all my DPS I quit". Don't waste their time filling up the feedback thread with posts that are going to bury other posts trying to be helpful.
Or just quit playing a CW and roll your Warlock. But I'm sticking with my CW, and come Module 4, regardless of the changes, I'll be excited to theorycraft up some new builds for the CW that's going to make people wonder what the big hoopla was all about.
Do you guys remember when Singularity, Shard of the Endless Avalanche and Sudden Storm couldn't crit?
Do you guys remember when NO ONE used Shard because "everyone" on this forum was adamant about it sucking?
Do you guys remember when Armor Penetration applied to basically NONE of our powers?
Do you guys remember when a lot of our feats didn't even affect the powers they were suppose to?
Do you guys remember when the Eye of the Storm use to have a 30 sec ICD?
Do you guys remember when we WEREN'T kings of DPS, but slotting spells to build AP fast and all we did was chain Singularity?
Do you guys remember when all we did in most dungeons was shield burst and repel mobs off cliffs?
Do you guys remember when they then "fixed" Shield, Entangling Force and Chill Strike from generating AP per target hit instead of per cast (which was suppose to kill the class)?"
Do you remember when we got the MoF paragon path, and the boards were adamant that it was completely worthless, doing less than half the damage of a Spellstorm (which was proven false)?
The point being the CW class has seen some pretty dramatic changes over the past year, and nothing has killed the class. Of course we've seen plenty of hyperbole every time changes were announced, and after the patches, it went back to business as usual.
I think some people here are just mad that EZ Mode is being taken away from them. In their current state, CW's trivialize content. In PvE, they are so far ahead of all the other classes, it's not even funny. Going into a dungeon with a geared CW? Great...your job is to pick up loot while the CW blows everything up.
And what are you asking for? Oh! Just buff the other classes to the level of the CW. Sounds easy, right? Even if that was possible without totally trashing all semblance of balance, then you've just trivialize the entire game for everyone.
Oh! Just make the content harder! Right, and then people just bring MORE CW's to the dungeons and more people get left behind.
Oh! Just make fights that focus on bigger enemies and less adds. Right, let's be honest here...if there's a fight with more than one target, a CW is still going to dominate that fight...and taking it a step further, do we dumb down the game so there's nothing more exciting that bashing a single big sack of hitpoints? No.
The point is, the dynamics of the game are changing. The GROUP is going to be more important. D&D has always been team game, and we're ironically at the point right now where Wizards are like the 3rd Edition Wizard, where after a few levels, they were so powerful they trivialize the roles of any other class in the party (well, most casters did, Clerics and Druids, too). It just makes the game "not fun" for anyone else.
It's not about YOU. It's not about YOU topping the Paingiver chart, or being "teh besstest!!111" DPS. It's about how do all the players come together in a cooperative MMO and have a good time. And if you'd take some time to dig through and understand the other changes they're making to class, you'll see that's what they're trying to do.
It's not about "nerf the CW, make them pay to play a Warlock!" That's an incredibly ignorant statement. It's about creating a game that EVRYONE can enjoy, regardless of the class they want to play. If for some reason you thought CW's were going to last in perpetuity, being able to double or triple the damage done of any other class, you're living in a true fantasy world.
And finally, keep in mind that Mod 4 is still a few weeks away. None of the changes are on Live yet. Nothing has technically been nerfed. So keep testing, keep posting feedback in the thread, but make it constructive. I can guarantee you the Devs are ignoring posts that just rehash the "Oooh, I lost all my DPS I quit". Don't waste their time filling up the feedback thread with posts that are going to bury other posts trying to be helpful.
Or just quit playing a CW and roll your Warlock. But I'm sticking with my CW, and come Module 4, regardless of the changes, I'll be excited to theorycraft up some new builds for the CW that's going to make people wonder what the big hoopla was all about.
"Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
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Comments
While you do have a lot of good points in your text, i totaly disagree with this part... The reason why I personaly(and a lot of other people, i could imagine) are so pissed and most likely is gonna quit, is because as it seems right now, they are excactly nerfing CW's into oblivion in order to make way for the warlock(since warlocks are basicly gonna be the new king of aoe)... While i can easily agree that the CW's damage needed to be brought Down a bit, the current changes are just madness... I have played my CW for about a year, and invested heavily into it, and no cant be bothered to roll a warlock to get my aoe fix... As it looks right now, they are keeping the CW the worst class in PvP(together with DC) and also gonna make us totaly useless in PvE, which imo isnt fair...
totally agree!
Nerf my DPS cause CW isnt supposed to deal that much DPS? Sounds Fine!
But pls provide me more controllings, or atleast keep it as right now, I am the CONTROLL wizard am I? OMG...
otherwise, They are doing the same thing with CWs as they did with GFs at the moment when compare with GWF:
GF (supposed to be tank): die fast, no dps WHILE GWF: healing deppression, god of single DPS and always in second place when u talk bout AoE
and guess what?
CW (supposed to controll): less controllings, no DPS WHILE WL(could be): King of AoE (doesnt need controllings since they maybe can even kill everything with out any controllings)
Could be the new role for CW? stay at the conner like GF in PvE?
1. Renegade will be useless and not used, if a line isnt used, then its broken.
2. Thaum is usable via MoF.
3. Oppressor niche line, will see if the end is viable or not.
and 4. Shard nerf is over the top and leave AS count alone. Everything else I can live with, some of the time increases need to be looked at.
on GWF.. egads, its broken , they continue to tinker, but I DIDNT roll this class to RUN away every ten seconds from a fight.. I have to do that alot in kessell's especially on a weaker team, I dont want to do that in every t2 as well!
Sever the GWF /GF lines and restart, its the only way to make both of them work right. They are already removing all the good stuff out of Vanguard as it is.
And who says the Warlock is going to be king of AoE? Warlocks are primarily ST damage and small groups.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Oppressor is rather more than niche. In fact at the moment it's pretty OP in both PvE and PvP. I expect nerfs before it goes live (they've already announced some tweaks).
Casting times are being shortened again because of feedback on lack of fluidity in attack. This is, however, coming at the expense of some further damage nerfs...
In short, the situation is fluid and I expect what eventually goes live to be a fair bit different to the first cut on Preview right now. First update due this week.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Neither of these statements is remotely accurate. CW's aren't being nerfed into oblivion and they aren't going to be useless in PvE. This suggests to me that you haven't bothered to log on to the preview server to test these changes at all. There are builds on the preview server where 4-6 man heroic encounters can be easily soloed and Castle Never can be cruised through with ease with an all CW party. Personally, I've found a build that does 2/3 of my current damage that also offers a truckload more control.
CW's are getting nerfed, but the nerf is not going to make CW's useless. The biggest problem (or opportunity, depending on your perspective) is that they've completely upset the apple cart. All of the current theory-crafting and time-tested uber builds are getting wrecked. In order for your CW to survive they will just have to adapt to a completely new play style. If you walk into Mod 4 and try to use the same feats and spell rotations as you currently do then you'll be useless.
They turned us into a DPS class slowly but surely as time went by. (We were sing bots for a short time it's true)
Now, guess what?
We are a sing bot again only this time we're going to be spamming Oppressive Force instead. (Which we should have been doing back then too, if you want to be honest.)
So CW has finally come full circle. We're back to pushing <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> off ledges for super high AP gain. (MoF CA/CC combo)
Ultimately this is proof that the developers shouldn't have screwed with the CW for over a year without any kind of clear goal or focus.
They turned us into DPS for absolutely no reason whatsoever. OP as hell DPS in fact.
Yeeep. Their stated goal of making other classes more relevant has completely and ultimately backfired on them.
Turns out 'more control' is worse than too much damage if you stack it.
As if everyone didn't already know that, but it's cute to watch a development team learn that lesson over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over...
...and yet they make the same mistakes...
Thank you. I'm glad someone here gets it.
And to the part I highlighted in green, I've also come up with some new, interesting builds that can definitely deliver high levels of DPS while bringing in ridiculous amounts of control. I'll be psyched to get off my laptop (traveling for work) and get on my desk top where I can run some ACT tests using this update.
But yes, everything is changing, and I can guarantee you CW's will still be in demand. Especially with the large amount of Derplocks I imagine we're going to see pouring out of every crack in PE come Module 4
Ok...
....despite.... any other disagreements you and I may have...
We definitely hold this view as common ground.
Its been a repeated thing out of this crew for a very long time... repeatedly making the situation worse while attempting to fix it or thinking it through.
I do not think they do much more than throw darts at a dartboard at this point and definitely without thinking things through.
While my CW isn't as old and experienced as yours (and nowhere as close in terms of pwnage
I see quite a few CWs reporting viable builds- Oppressor seems very appealing, suddenly and MoF (not sure if it was on par in terms of damage with SS, but it sure is fun to play) will be as viable as SS, if not more. Ultimately, players that can adapt, will adapt and probably more than just survive.
This may be a bit harsh. While CW damage may have been out of line, we may never know all the reasons leading to these changes. Ultimately, business comes first
But it is ignorant. The Devs aren't money-grubbing <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> that sit around a conference room all day thinking about how they can fack over the players to wring more cash out of them. They genuinely care about the game and want to make a product that's fun and entertaining. Nobody is nerfing the CW so that people will pay real cash to gear up a Warlock. Hell, take a minute to look over the Warlock spell list or fire up the Test Server and see for yourself. It looks like the Warlock has very strong single target spells, some spill-over AOE damage, and virtually no hard CC abilities.
In other words, it's NOT the CW 2.0.
And the reason I specifically call this very specific whine out is it's how these dumb rumors and myths start. Before you know it, it will be "common knowledge" that the Devs nerfed the CW to force everyone to play a SW, which isn't true. But that's how it works around here. Someone types something silly in a post, it gets parroted by someone, and then you see people legitimately asking if Cryptic gave all the CW powers to SW as a cash grab.
The entire idea is pretty ludicrous, and you should think more highly of the Devs than that.
And furthermore, we DO know the reasons behind the changes. While some of the stuff definitely needs to be adjusted, no CW worth his salt should have been completely surprised by the changes. In it's current state, the CW is vastly more powerful than any other class in PvE. The changes being made across the board are to tether things back a bit, and allow for more diversity in how the game plays. Overall, the changes should make things more fun for everyone.
Look, money is to be made by keeping players interested in the game. And you do this by keeping the game fun and balanced, with new content. You can't just keep crying "Ugh! Cash grab!" every time a decision is made that you don't like.
This in and of itself is a bad thing. Tuning is one thing, completely trashing all the current builds is just obnoxious and makes me wonder if they actually know how to play their own game.
According to my ACT testing last weekend, my build did 28% less damage on Test than Live, using the EXACT build and rotation. And that's with some of the feats not working correctly. Plus, you have to factor in a default 15% drop on EVERYONE'S DPS due to the removal of the 15% debuff from Assailing Force It'll still be less damage, but the changes don't totally negate everything we know.
Yes, it's different, but people who were intimately familiar with the current mechanics should have no problem adapting to the new changes.
At the end of the day, forcing every CW to respec (since pretty much all the current builds are trashed), you might as well play a SW because gameplay will be completely different anyway.
Proper game design is about offering options, not taking away options.
I'll admit, I haven't done any of my own testing. 28% is still pretty over the top (15 - 20% would be more reasonable), but, I can't imagine the oppressor build being better than 28% less than the current most powerful spellstorm build.
That's with MoF Zerg....
Not with Spellstorm... it was the Spellstorm Paragon path that got completely wrecked. As MoFs we're barely scratched.
The Spellstorm has been completely trashed at this point. Some builds there have been reduced by a good 67% down...
As have two entire Feat trees... That's not "balancing" that's wrecking...
Well there you have it ....... 67% less sound more in line with what I've been hearing ... and that is a big slap in the face to the existing players.
What I don't understand is how the Dev's come up with this stuff and actually test it. From all the livestreams I've seen and heard about, the Dev's play worse than bad PUGs.
Pretty much...
For MoFs this is nothing... especially if you knew what you were doing in the first place.... my biggest annoyance is a larger recast timer for FtF
... not so for the Spellstorms...
That paragon path got completely destroyed... its a broken Paragon path at this point.
Like I said, at the end of the day, most of the good players will adapt. Whiners will whine. Quitters will quit. Evolution works in mysterious ways :cool:
Can you link to the numbers on this? You keep throwing out the "67%" number, but I haven't actually seen you provide data to back that claim up. Again, I'm not paying $3 to respec just to get a baseline on DPS for Spellstorms.
If someone can quote me numbers on a test versus the three dummies in the PvP area, as well as approximate stats, I'd be happy to parse out some builds on the test server. But right now, it's tough for me to find out where 67% of a Spellstorm's DPS went, considering there's not that much difference between MoF and SS, except for Eye of the Storm and Sudden Storm in builds. Otherwise, the powers and feats are identical.
Unless you can back this 67% number up with some data on how it was measured, I'm calling bs on it.
You're missing a key point here. The damage debuff on Assailing Force has been removed, meaning it's a flat 15% drop in DPS for EVERYONE in a group with a CW's, not just the CW's. So for all practically purposes, you can discount it. When you take that away, you're looking at your 15-20% number.
A 67% decrease in damage, oh my!
With a smaller damage reduction on MoF? Surely MoF's will be best forever more right?
Now, ask yourself how much more damage a Spellstorm Thaumaturge spec does on live right now over a similar MoF build.
That's what people are ignoring in this little conversation. How incredibly out of line Spellstorm Thaumaturge is right now.
This is the real issue at hand if you ask me. Statistics can lie, and using just reduced percentages of damage in a vacuum is not terribly useful information for comparison of the two.
Those are some pretty big differences. Spellstorms generally claim to have almost a 50% parsed crit rate due to EotS. I have never seen a MoF get anywhere close to that. (Maybe with a Executioner TR in group...maybe.) Also Sudden Storm is kind of a big deal if you can force it to crit. (Which you can as SS.)
Just sayin'. They are not really identical in the powers or class skills that they use in my opinion.
However I will agree it's questionable that with highly reduced damage it will be worth choosing Spellstorm over a DoT/CC spec MoF build of some sort or another. Without bringing high damage, what does Spellstorm really offer on test? (And this probably depends what you define as 'high' damage.)
If you run a Vorpal enchantment as a Spellstorm I can see this really neutering what you were built to do before.
The data he is referring to is mine. I conducted a 5 minute test in the dread ring on the four test dummies (Thaumaturge build, with nightmare wizardry feat, CoI on tab, steal time, sudden storm, shard of avalanche, with evocation and eye of the storm as passives. I spammed spells repeatedly for 5 minutes. I did approximately 39,276k DPS (15 million total damage) on those dummies. I then copied that character over to the preview server and did the exact same thing and did approximately 16,934k DPS (5 million total damage).
It is important to note that I did nothing to adapt my build to the new trees. Also the several of the thaumaturge tree feats were bugged and not working properly. Since that initial testing the developers have scaled back some of the nerfs (eye of the storm cooldown changed from 90 seconds to 25). That's given some damage back.
Edit: I think I saved the data from those tests. I'll see if I can find the parsed data and post pics.
Yep found em.
Mod 3 test
Mod 4 test
I noticed those numbers are decieving (more hits on live)
alot more hits with
chilling cloud (should be less on live)
steal time (has cooldown reduction)
and conduit should have hit alot more due to the shorter cooldown. noticed just alot less hits on preview with skills that haven't been affected by CD changes.
I know it doesnt really matter anymore but it helps to keep certain conditions when testing. (an annoying one is when someone runs in and gives you combat advantage during the middle of a test, grrr)
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
I was wondering about those myself before I posted them. The decrease in Sudden Storm hits makes sense since they increased the cooldown time. Conduit of Ice got slightly more hits in, but maybe not enough more. Its cooldown was decreased and its casting time was increased. I would think the net would be a few more hits than that. Shard Slam and Shard Plosion should have hit a few more times as well. I also got a bit unlucky with Oppressive Force in the second test since it only scored a crit 11% of the time.
So you're correct that there are some irregularities in my second test. I'll re-do it now that they've re-worked some things and see if I can get similar results in the number of casts of each spell and I'll report the damage. But do know that there was no intention on my part to make the second test worse than the first. I was trying to use spells as quickly as I could. It may have just been that my rhythm of when spells come off cooldown, and when I have time for at-wills was off because of the changes they made.
And man, do I wish they would allow people or guilds to use AD to purchase homes or guild halls where you could configure your own test dummies so other people can't interfere with the testing. Nothing more obnoxious than walking into trade of blades wanting to test stuff and five other people are sitting there spamming attacks.
Did you test your CW in Preview?, I can hardly belive it, I've run some dungeon in Preview with some HRs/GWFs/CWs and CWs are still good in DPS, yea, HRs are now the 1st in DPS, but CWs and GWFs are still outdpsing TRs/DCs/GFs by A LOT and you have great CC too, so no way you will be at a corner like my GF, test your class!.
in pve thats not even a nerf
cw will be viable and needed as ever if not more.
if tr would do double the dmg then cw
cw would still be more valuable but they will still do more lol
And it didn't take me long to see he was accurate in his assessment.
It was the Spellstorms that got completely wrecked along with two feat trees.
But looking at some of the recent reversals of the Devs on the Trees its starting to look a little brighter... they still have a ways to go yet...
But at least there's promise.
I may even log in again and play, but I want this to come a lot further back from the ledge as far as Spellstorms are concerned.
I do not like watching an entire paragon path and feat trees broken like that. That's not a "fix" that's breaking something.
in a game were whole clsasses are broken one or 2 trees in nothing
While that may be true...
Breaking another class's paragons and feats just because the other classes ones are broken is just stupid... its not "balancing"... its breaking.