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[Imbalanced] You know there's a problem when...
erdokan
Member Posts: 188 Arc User
1. Lvl 60 People who can afford ANY existing gear are wearing rare lvl 49 rings with regen + hp boost as their rings of choice.
2. 90%+ of the people are using soulforged and have waters in their main artifact slot. This is the perfect example of there being almost no build diversity in this game. If this many people are using waters as their main artifact slot, it means it's OP compared to the other artifact effects and must be nerfed. There's already enough healing effects in the game as it is to the point that it's already easy to survive in PvE and oh yeah, PvP should be about killing not contesting eachother for ages on a zone without any killing being done.
3. Random non premade PvP matches can take well over an hour now depending on which classes/builds are in the match now. I spoke with some people in that match afterwards, they did not know eachother and were in different guilds so confirmed no premade.
Why is this bad? Well first of all, some people who play this game have a life and cannot be randomly thrown into a PvP match that takes 2 hours of intense contesting which means there's no chance to deal with other stuff that comes up within those 2 hours. This is why most PvP minigames/activities have a set time of say, 20 mins or no timer at all (open world PvP) where you can quit whenever you want to. And secondly, no one wants to spend 2 hours on a single PvP game when the max reward is 500 glory + 125 bonus. Easy fix: match 30 mins max duration timer. Once 30 minutes are up, team with most points wins.
4. Tons of healing/defensive feats/buffs get added, but DPS options remain almost the same. Module 3 proves that the devs do not appear to understand what made PvP fun which is sort of understandable seeing as it's not their area of expertise, and it appears that they ended up listening to the wrong kind of feedback as a result. The kind of feedback from people who do not understand that adding tenacity and more hp boosting/healing options to the game without adding sufficient DPS improvements to compensate with it is going to make the fights dragged out and takes away the fast pace that NW PvP once had.
The screenshot @ point 3 is the perfect example - take a look at the classes that participated in that game. Everybody except me were using defensive builds (other rogue was perma stealth). The HR's were both pathfinders, and I'm an Executioner rogue with the highest possible DPS feats (so not the perma stealth path) and perfect vorp/rank 8-9 enchants, picked all the best DPS boons - 5.2k pow 4k crit 2.5k arp. In other words, it cannot get much better offense wise. And yet, the HR contesting our zone was simply able to stand still and would gain more lifepoints/second using meditation while I duel flurried him in stealth with combat advantage + 25% more damage in stealth AFTER being hit by the highest DPS combo's that a rogue can throw at a target atm. Lashing blade would simply get dodged without the HR actually dodging at times aswell (not an incident), so...which options are left to kill your opponent now?
Yes, a gwf would have to come over for knockdowns but a single HR requiring 2+ people to kill him means there is an imbalance and gives the team he's on an unfair advantage (4v3 @ other zones). It has nothing to do with good play/being skilled, there's just a ridiculous gap between DPS builds and defensive builds now to the point that pathfinder HR's/tanky gwf's etc don't even really have to try to stay alive anymore (atleast not 1v1) post tenacity/BI armor/defensive buffs etc. Check the amount of kills that all of us managed in almost 2 hours of 'PvP' @2nd screenshot. It truly is laughable. I also love how apparently perma stealth rogues are going to get nerfed without any buffs to compensate - do people even wonder why so many rogues play perma stealth in the first place?
5. Bugs still haven't been fixed after a year of them being known. PvP field potion for example - still unusable sometimes for the remainder of the entire match even though it's visible.
All of this makes me come to the conclusion that the following 'fixes' are required:
-Either remove PvP completely (pretty much the only endgame that NW has + it's a lot of fun when you don't play vs solo unkillable builds) OR hire players that PvP often and have the ability to think of the consequences that their new updates have on the game (from all possible angles).
-Buff the DPS output of classes that want to focus on the offense rather than defence.
-Give DPS penalties to encounters/at-wills of defensive skill paths/feats. Another problem is that defensive builds can troll effectively because they can still deal decent damage while being really tanky at the same time. This is yet another issue that must be adressed so that they'll have to sacrifice a bit of tankiness if they want to actually get kills aswell.
-Reduce the amount of time it takes to mount up after attacking/being attacked to help bring back the fast pace that NW PvP used to have.
And that's about all for now. Post your class + build/stats if you're going to critisize/disagree with something I've written down here. I don't like it when people try to argue with me if they don't know what they're talking about. Thanks.
2. 90%+ of the people are using soulforged and have waters in their main artifact slot. This is the perfect example of there being almost no build diversity in this game. If this many people are using waters as their main artifact slot, it means it's OP compared to the other artifact effects and must be nerfed. There's already enough healing effects in the game as it is to the point that it's already easy to survive in PvE and oh yeah, PvP should be about killing not contesting eachother for ages on a zone without any killing being done.
3. Random non premade PvP matches can take well over an hour now depending on which classes/builds are in the match now. I spoke with some people in that match afterwards, they did not know eachother and were in different guilds so confirmed no premade.
Why is this bad? Well first of all, some people who play this game have a life and cannot be randomly thrown into a PvP match that takes 2 hours of intense contesting which means there's no chance to deal with other stuff that comes up within those 2 hours. This is why most PvP minigames/activities have a set time of say, 20 mins or no timer at all (open world PvP) where you can quit whenever you want to. And secondly, no one wants to spend 2 hours on a single PvP game when the max reward is 500 glory + 125 bonus. Easy fix: match 30 mins max duration timer. Once 30 minutes are up, team with most points wins.
4. Tons of healing/defensive feats/buffs get added, but DPS options remain almost the same. Module 3 proves that the devs do not appear to understand what made PvP fun which is sort of understandable seeing as it's not their area of expertise, and it appears that they ended up listening to the wrong kind of feedback as a result. The kind of feedback from people who do not understand that adding tenacity and more hp boosting/healing options to the game without adding sufficient DPS improvements to compensate with it is going to make the fights dragged out and takes away the fast pace that NW PvP once had.
The screenshot @ point 3 is the perfect example - take a look at the classes that participated in that game. Everybody except me were using defensive builds (other rogue was perma stealth). The HR's were both pathfinders, and I'm an Executioner rogue with the highest possible DPS feats (so not the perma stealth path) and perfect vorp/rank 8-9 enchants, picked all the best DPS boons - 5.2k pow 4k crit 2.5k arp. In other words, it cannot get much better offense wise. And yet, the HR contesting our zone was simply able to stand still and would gain more lifepoints/second using meditation while I duel flurried him in stealth with combat advantage + 25% more damage in stealth AFTER being hit by the highest DPS combo's that a rogue can throw at a target atm. Lashing blade would simply get dodged without the HR actually dodging at times aswell (not an incident), so...which options are left to kill your opponent now?
Yes, a gwf would have to come over for knockdowns but a single HR requiring 2+ people to kill him means there is an imbalance and gives the team he's on an unfair advantage (4v3 @ other zones). It has nothing to do with good play/being skilled, there's just a ridiculous gap between DPS builds and defensive builds now to the point that pathfinder HR's/tanky gwf's etc don't even really have to try to stay alive anymore (atleast not 1v1) post tenacity/BI armor/defensive buffs etc. Check the amount of kills that all of us managed in almost 2 hours of 'PvP' @2nd screenshot. It truly is laughable. I also love how apparently perma stealth rogues are going to get nerfed without any buffs to compensate - do people even wonder why so many rogues play perma stealth in the first place?
5. Bugs still haven't been fixed after a year of them being known. PvP field potion for example - still unusable sometimes for the remainder of the entire match even though it's visible.
All of this makes me come to the conclusion that the following 'fixes' are required:
-Either remove PvP completely (pretty much the only endgame that NW has + it's a lot of fun when you don't play vs solo unkillable builds) OR hire players that PvP often and have the ability to think of the consequences that their new updates have on the game (from all possible angles).
-Buff the DPS output of classes that want to focus on the offense rather than defence.
-Give DPS penalties to encounters/at-wills of defensive skill paths/feats. Another problem is that defensive builds can troll effectively because they can still deal decent damage while being really tanky at the same time. This is yet another issue that must be adressed so that they'll have to sacrifice a bit of tankiness if they want to actually get kills aswell.
-Reduce the amount of time it takes to mount up after attacking/being attacked to help bring back the fast pace that NW PvP used to have.
And that's about all for now. Post your class + build/stats if you're going to critisize/disagree with something I've written down here. I don't like it when people try to argue with me if they don't know what they're talking about. Thanks.
David Valtiere, Lvl 70 TR with perfect Lvl 60 gear which I don't want to replace cause nostalgia yo ;_;
Post edited by erdokan on
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Comments
I think the general consensus is that both GWFs and HRs need to be changed if PvP is to be balanced. There's a link in the thread I mentioned to a post by the developers, mentioning some future class changes. It looks like GWFs are going to be seriously affected and CWs who run shard in PvP.
Edit: Were you in Crush It?
Skipped over post and read that and just...
If you're tired of being stomped, then stick to PVE.
10v10 PvP would solve a lot of these other issues. Waters is not OP, its just OP in small fights. Soulforged is not OP, its just OP in small fights. If the size of a battle grew, things like Banners, alternative armor enchants would emerge. Additionally, there would be a lot less of the boring stalemates in PvP and a lot more killing. With an additional 5 players on each team rotating, caps would be captured and held more easily and games would be decided much quicker.
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
Maybe you should have read the entire post. He was obviously using an extreme dichotomy to emphasize how troubling the current state of PvP is and how important it would be to hire a team of specialists. I don't think anyone is meant to take seriously the option of removing PvP. But I understand how hard it is to read people's posts before replying to them.
That's at the very least part of your problem. You're not actually the DPS monster you think you are. >_>
Actually, I've messed around with more arp instead of crit but there was no noticable difference in PvP. What I could do is switch out a few dark enchants for radiants once I collect enough seals to afford profound scoundrel, which will give me the desired amount of crit + some more arp and power. However, this would not make a big enough difference in PvP to overcome the gap I've mentioned @OP. So in a way, this is pretty pointless to discuss as it doesn't solve the problem that I talk about @OP.
@Fuzzy: I'm pretty sure that you misunderstood that part. The choice to go for a lvl 49 ring with hp/regen rather than a ring with other/higher stats is part of my point of defensive choices outperforming offensive choices right now - HP stacking being the main problem here. Not sure if there have been any changes to regen the last half year but at one point everyone and their mom used the full greater teneb + hp stack/regen build for any class (even CW's) to the point that PvP started to feel very 'trolly'.
And that still appears to be the problem today. You'll see what I mean here:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?691441-Module-3-Rustlord-s-Reflect-TR
''Soulforged Armor: Just to be overly annoying, if your enemies somehow manage to bring you down, rise from the dead, spam stealth and disengage from combat. Either grab a field potion or sit someplace to catch your breath. Troll the node again when it is convenient for you.'' (Self-Healing section, post 2)
Killing makes PvP fun and it's what PvP should be about. Module 3 gear aids in allowing people to achieve the exact opposite - it has greatly reduced the amount of kills/minute and is pushing the meta towards endless zone contesting and, well, trolling eachother as you will. I do not play a game to be trolled constantly, I play it to have fun. Surely I'm not the only one who feels this way?
@Pandora: Before I took a long break from NW I pvp'd with/against Lemonade Stand a lot. You sound like a new kid on the block but even if not, I can assure you that I've done more PvP than you @total hours spent and did so with a very favorable KDR. Please make a DPS rogue and run it against defensive class builds before commenting and read my post fully in the future, thanks.
@Velynna: *claps* faith in humanity restored a little!
Sorry, somehow didn't see this post o_o. Yeah I was, almost all the people that were active in the PvP scene back then seem to have quit the game permanentaly and I'm starting to understand why they did based on what I'm reading/experiencing so far haha. Nice to see that atleast a few are still around from those days :P which guild were you in?
Also, to not go completely off-topic, yes I agree that gwf/HR are the classes that need to be toned down a little (especially HR) before there can be any hope of a somehat balanced PvP scene. I'm also not against a perma stealth change but the lack of compensation for it is what worries me.
Perma. Or semi-perma. The style you're using isn't just bad for killing HRs, it's bad against anyone compared to the alternative. The way the game is played heavily favors defensive builds.
And even if you can't kill the HR with perma, if you play defensive he can't kill you either, so you'll nullify his advantage on the game.
Real life comes up- just turn off your computer like you would do for any video game...
I, like many people, are totally glory capped. I have 5 bloodcrystal raven skulls and stacks of healing potions. I play for the fun of the game, and long tough games are lots of fun.
The problem is pure-tanky doesn't work very well. You can see it already in the DC. Without any threat of DPS, they eventually die and lose the node.
Exactly, which is why they'll have to sacrifice some of that tankiness to get back some DPS threat - which will close the gap between offense vs defence more.
i understand why he says it, read previous line.
a pot bug of over a year old hehe.
it`s just too weird.
removing the pots won`t be that huge deal untill it`s fixed.
it`s already a gamble to walk somewhere and hope there`s a pot or not.
the bug isn`t realy helping with that
i don`t play real much pvp anymore, but the 30 min max matches would be nice.
it actualy should have been there all the time
oooooh i found it. THIS Our friend has done pvp in the future.
This is an ability called fox shift, or you are just not good enough to aim.
now lets call about the tankiness:
the average player has 30k, you are not doing pve. you dont need great number to see your enemy health going down. So tanky builds are the more effective and is always like this in every games with pvp. the so called tankyderps.
water of el. = it heals and it's the only artifact to do it. nothing more.
about rings = every classes with 0 regen in their sets have those rings.
It's about waters ignoring HD.
This!
OP just sounds like a TR who wants his one shotting lashings back.
Wont happen, sorry!
Defensive builds were always been superior to offensive glass cannon builds. In many many MMOs.
But I agree totally to the 30min max for a match. Pvp matches should not last 2h+.
Also need to point out both team have BIS DC that are really tanky and dish out heal at the same time, combine with HRs it really make the game like eternity
The HR meditation is simply stupid, after he die to me on home point twice he went full defensive with oak skin combine with other root ability, his whole goal is to survive 40 sec so he can pop a daily lol. Not a fun game for me, and yeah it was too annoying that the other team actually gave up when we hit 900-480 and they reckon they can't come back so no point to waste time.
PS: record of that match incase anyone wanna watch how stalemate that game is lol
<< unauthorized video link removed >> match starts at 24:30
I haven't been back that long, and I was in the middle of my break from NW when HR came out so I might mix up the name of a move by accident. Green light shines on them which heals them but they are unable to move while doing so. I was under the impression that this move is called medicine, but it's called meditation. I blame the fact that it both starts with 'medi', lol.
But this thread is hardly full of bs. It is a fact that the amount of kills per minute have gone down drastically in PvP compared to pre tenacity/module 3. Not a single player with over 20 kills in a match lasting almost 2 hours - that's about 1 kill every 5-6 minutes. If you look at some of the replies @this thread, you'll see that not everyone agrees with your opinion concerning the current meta.
I mean, did you have a problem with PvP the way it was the first few months of this game's release? It may not have been perfect and needed some tweaks here and there but the balance between tanky builds vs offensive builds was closer back then compared to how it is now (sentinel GWF excluded).
Lastly about the rings, the hitpoints on it are the biggest part of the problem in this hp/regen combo. Hp stacking is not affected by DR while the DPS boosting stats are affected by it, this means that with enough HP stacking you're eventually stacking more HP than the DPS options of offensive class builds can chew, no matter how high your DPS output is. Cooldowns kick in, it's easy to avoid or simply out-tank at-wills, and with enough healing power you can heal up any damage that the encounters/at wills of said attacker dealt by the time that their encounters are available for use again. The cycle would just repeat itself until the attacker eventually dies by being whittled down. Shouldn't be this way, simple as that.
Meditation. HR daily power.
Medicine is a paragon feat deep in the combat tree currently in testing for Mod 4, which is looking at a different way of giving HRs some regen-on-deflect (iirc) back because their PvP set bonus that does this now is slated for a mega-nerf.
Mixing the two up would be confusing to people.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Gotcha, had a feeling it was that after reading Slush's post :P I'll edit it.