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Matchmaking is terrible and making PvP a frustrating experience.
pvpvolley
Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 10 Arc User
Let me start by saying I believe PUGs and premades of any size should never face one another. That is discussed in another thread and the community mostly agrees. This thread is about something different. The team selection algorithm is bonkers. Seriously I can't think of a better word.
In the last 20 matches I played with my (then page 14 CW) I had at least one 9k gs player on my side 17 times. I had two 9k gearscore players on my side 12 times! I personaly have 16.5k gear score and most of the ppl in the top 20 pages are similarly stated/geared.
Just as bad I face a team with two GWFs and one GFs 4 times when I had neither GWFs or GFs on my team. They all claimed to solo queue ( I have only their word on it but they werent in the same guild). Those all ended predictably.
Actually they all ended predictably. I lost 18 of my last 20 matches and the vast majority of those were 1000 to sub 100 blowouts.
I am not saying it is easy to build even teams via a collection of stats and pseudo-elo ratings. I am sure it is a solvable problem. If they did nothing other than balance classes and gearscore/elo it would be better than this by far I'm sure. I think those matches might be more dull than mixing up classes but 18 blowouts isn't even playing a game. It is waiting for a loss so I can try to play a game if the RNG gods favor me.
Strangely it seems like match making is worse now in Mod3 than it was way back pre ELO. If we didn't face a premade both sides could score. That former cases is, obviously, easily solved by preventing premades from facing solo que-ers.
Anyhow my frustration with this game is at an all time high. Pvp domination is fun once ever 10 or 20 matches. Black Ice gear is too RNG to acquire. After over 100 attempts across multiple toons I have one pair of gloves and zero main hands despite numerous great successes. That is probably a different post.
In the last 20 matches I played with my (then page 14 CW) I had at least one 9k gs player on my side 17 times. I had two 9k gearscore players on my side 12 times! I personaly have 16.5k gear score and most of the ppl in the top 20 pages are similarly stated/geared.
Just as bad I face a team with two GWFs and one GFs 4 times when I had neither GWFs or GFs on my team. They all claimed to solo queue ( I have only their word on it but they werent in the same guild). Those all ended predictably.
Actually they all ended predictably. I lost 18 of my last 20 matches and the vast majority of those were 1000 to sub 100 blowouts.
I am not saying it is easy to build even teams via a collection of stats and pseudo-elo ratings. I am sure it is a solvable problem. If they did nothing other than balance classes and gearscore/elo it would be better than this by far I'm sure. I think those matches might be more dull than mixing up classes but 18 blowouts isn't even playing a game. It is waiting for a loss so I can try to play a game if the RNG gods favor me.
Strangely it seems like match making is worse now in Mod3 than it was way back pre ELO. If we didn't face a premade both sides could score. That former cases is, obviously, easily solved by preventing premades from facing solo que-ers.
Anyhow my frustration with this game is at an all time high. Pvp domination is fun once ever 10 or 20 matches. Black Ice gear is too RNG to acquire. After over 100 attempts across multiple toons I have one pair of gloves and zero main hands despite numerous great successes. That is probably a different post.
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Think about it like this. 10 players queue, all of whom are within 50 ranks on the leaderboard from one another. These are extremely ideal circumstances for an even match. However, in reality, Party A is a premade team grouped of players from the highest 10 spots of that 50 and Party B is made up of up of 5 solo-queuers from the 11-50 ranks. This match turns into a lopsided match because the premade refuses to party with anyone but their stacked team consisting of likely a stacked composition. Even like with this case, where the stacked premade goes up against fairly evenly matched players ELO-wise, it still ends up one sided. The matchmaking has done its job, but the problem is that with premades, these players have essentially said "Okay we have 10 fairly even players, but we want the best 5 out of those 10, all on our team."
In the same circumstances, if it were solo-queue only, the system could divide these same players into 2 more evenly matched teams, with more evenly matched compositions. The match would be an even one.
You enforce solo-queues, not only do you make matchmaking more effective, you also make class composition in PvP more even, AND, as a bonus, you end up with a much more accurate ladder since bad players won't be carried by thier premades so easily and good players won't be burdened by their pugs so much. Its a win-win. Except of course, if you're one of the people who are too scared to do anything but premade with a stacked group and composition.
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
The problem with allowing solo queue only is it mostly punishes friends or guildmates that queue together. 2 people queue'ing together != premade. That's the most common way (other than solo) people queue. Guild Wars 2 was like this when it came out (don't know if it still is). It made me not enjoy the PvP, because I was always fighting against my friends instead of with them.
Some people only want to win. They are not in it for the fun anymore. They want a nice looking record to mouth off about.
I mean, if you had to pay for your stuff and was also a bad player, wouldn't you also queue with stacked parties?
And they would be missed by exacly whom ???
I have now hit 30+ matches and lossed 27 of them for exactly the same reason as before: 9k gear score team mates and no gwfs versus teams with 2 gwfs or more. My gwf doesn't get such bad RNG luck so now he is in mid 30s (page wise) and my CW has fallen to around 150.
What is the point of a leaderboard in such cases? Does it really measure anything when my party is so outclassed?
Unsurprisingly the higher gear score ppl on my team usually just AFK once they notice the low gear score person on the team.
I don't blame the low gs guys. Its not their fault they dont have gear yet. We, however, should never be in a pvp match together. I would rather wait an hour for a fair match.
The multiple GWFs versus a team with no GWFs is beyond ridiculous. Usually within 60s both are at your spawn Roar, Takedown, IBSing you before you can even start playing.
I guess there are really two problems here.
1) Matchmaking makes for very unbalanced teams
2) Losing by a little or losing by a lot has the same value (massive rank plummet and practically no glory) so once you know you can't win its pointless to try. Usually it is no fun either because once you are losing you are either being home point camped or spawn camped and it is 5v1 scenario where you just die instantly. Pushing into the enemy side should be unsustainable because of base defenses so balance point is always near point two and comebacks are actually possible.
I beg to differ. I (semi-stealth TR... not all that skilled, just a good sport) was in a "premade" last week consisting of one guildie who PvPs (GWF), one who never had before that night (Stormwarden HR), the non-PvPing guildie's son (CW), and the son's friend (CW).
The pug team we were matched with consisted of one person from EoA, one from AC, one from a Brazilian guild I see PvPing a lot, etc. I don't remember the exact composition, but mostly GWF and HR, all of them very obviously built for PvP.
The only good thing I can say about that match was that nobody on the other team was a spawncamping or trashtalking jerk.
There is a slight advantage when playing with friends, all other things being equal. If the queue decides to put even two random strong PvPers against you and your friend, the rest of their team would have to be pretty bad for you to not lose much of your advantage.
And if you get randomly matched with strong PvPers on your side, you still have to hope that they're people who aren't going to talk smack to their own team and completely undermine their morale taking them from a win into a loss by attrition... I've had that happen too.
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I absolutely agree that you should be able to casually play with friends without being labeled a serious "premade", but it cannot be done within a single player rating system, because it's a _single_ player rating system.
I think there have to be three systems to please and satisfy everyone.
a) Ranked queue. You queue up solo, matches are capped at 20 minutes (most points win) and grant glory for the full 20 minutes. Matches also count towards the PVP campaign. This major step needs to be done to get the leaderboard anywhere near significance.
b) Unranked queue. No queue restrictions. 50% glory and matches don't count towards the campaign to limit premade exploitation. This is were your casual play is happening. People need to complete ten (20? 25?) unranked matches before they can queue up for any ranked matches.
c) A challenge / league / team ladder system for premades. Five-player queue only. No glory and matches don't count towards the PVP campaign. This is supposed to be the super competitive environment for PVP guilds and everybody should know what they are getting into. Thus no matchmaking, if there are two teams, they square off.
You fail to see the real problems!
3) You say yourself that you meassure your win possibilities in the amount of GWF's a team has;
4) and you mention GWF's spamming ROAR as an effective way to win.
Number 3 and 4 are the biggest problems with PvP (apart from crappy matchups)
Don't let any GWF be in teams with another GWF, in GG there can be max 4 GWF's on a map at a time, or take away ROAR as a skill all together, unless it's fixed!
Most problems solved - end thread
This is exactly why normal PvP queue should continue to allow premades. So friends and guildmates can queue up together and enjoy some casual PvP, they can progress in the campaign and they can complete daily quests. However, Ranked Queue should be created in order to establish a truly competitive atmosphere, in which players are subjected to ladder movement up or down and premades of any size are not allowed.
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
Well stated...I'd only add that the amount "some" is probably more like...most. Whats with that anyway...like really, if you want that kind of win at all cost serious action, almost every city and town will have a MMA faction for you lean into and step away from behind the keyboard so that prove to yourself you are a winner and maybe dispel being bullied in your past.
Read a little from the D&D texts ...remember those? It was much more fun based no? Most of it if not all is about players helping other players against NON players.....ie...cooperattion peaapalll ...cooperation keeps it light, fun and positive.
Otherwise its called MMA...look into it
You used to see the same thing in apb all the time where 100 players would be in a district at max so the matchmaker had 50 players it could set up against the other 50 in teams of four typically. The gruesome mismatches were unavoidable if it was going to make them even if the ranking of the players was appropriate.
You want to do Domination? You solo queue.
You want to fight alongside your guildies? No problem, there's Open World PVP.
It's THAT simple.
That would lead to 40+min of queue times since the ELO would also have to match the gear (since this is a main point of contention by players) and skill
I think between ranked and a premade challenge/league/ELO system there has to be a way for friends to queue up together without being forced into a competitive environment. The unranked queue with little glory and very loose matchmaking would be the place for that type of casual play.
Yeah that was just a random addition because it makes sense to go from unranked to ranked. No major demand.
They could choose between unranked and the premade queue. You would also be able to queue solo to fill up teams. I think the premade queue times could be a pain, but it is what it is. I know Cryptic is very anxious about those queue times, but the premade queue would ultimately show how big the dedicated PVP population really is on a team level. Plus people can still decide to go unranked or queue up solo.
Generally I think the ranked queue should be a strict one because matchmaking should have one helluva easier time to match up single players. In theory the queue times should go down in ranked matches. And unranked as well without any or a very loose matchmaking system.
A league system with registered teams is the best place for it. Short-term it might be easier to install a team ELO, because the system is already in place and just has to be copied.