GF - PVE and PVP - The Analysis Of A Year

thynael21 · June 2014

Hello all,

i'm pretty sure that anything i'm writing down here will be on another post already. Or partly written in many posts... but i felt like writing today... complaining seems too easy...

Don't read further if you are playing Neverwinter for fun. All coming suggestions are made for most efficent Dungeonclearing or PVP-interested.

1. Some things all should know of and i'm pretty sure all know of:
What is the Guardian Fighter and what is it not? - The Guardian Fighter is a defender and not a tank.
-The Guardian Fighter is provided with Control+ and De-/Buffskills NOT DPS!

2. How do i! play a GF in PVE?
For sure not as a DPS-Conquerer. "Why?" Because the DPS of CW's and GWF's is significantly greater than the one of a Conq. GF - since module 2&3 artefacts are added and many ppl maximized their builds out for ultimate dps...
"What am i supposed to do than?" Play as a Tactician. "Why?" Because you get alot of Features increasing the overall Partydps + Control there. "Maybe i can play a Protector?" For what reason? To be able to tank more? For how long do you want to do that? Most effective way of dungeonclearing is to dps and control adds till they are dead - so when all mobs/adds whatever you call them are cc'd or dead - what's the reason to "tank"? "There are some CC-Imun mobs..." Yes, and you can get their aggro and "tank" them without speccing on protector... it's 1 of 1000... probably the Boss...
"How do i increase the Party-DPS than?" Now it's getting interesting. Which armor are you wearing? "T2 blablabla" - Screw it. It's not helping the party in any way. Get yourself the Knight Captain's or Valiant Warrior T1 armor. "But..." Knight Captain increases the average DPS of a party by 5-15%. It's 15% powerincrease i know, but also 25% defincrease... AND it's for the WHOLE party (except you yay). Valiant Warrior reduces the defense of an enemy by 450 - which is about 3-6% dps increase on that target... funny fact? Valiant Warrior got no internal CD nor a Targetcap... Cleave the hell out in a singu. With the 3 High Vizier stacks of a CW it'll make 1800 less defense...12-24% more dps for the whole party

.
Tactician also provides the following: 5% DPSboost when casting "Into the Fray" and 10% DMGincrease on targets you controlled for 3sec. (The 10% goes for the whole party -> All hail Frontline Surge and Terrifying Impact - 5targets)
Also Powerful Strike makes you get 20% more threat and 100% to interupt a target with lunging strike. Funny Fact? It now counts as a control power - working on bosses too (it'S not interupting them, but giving the 3secs of 10% more dps and also helps keeping aggro of bosses - it will also interupt adds/mobs that are cc-imun while casting special skills, like the aoe of Battlewright Commanders in CN)
Fact is: a GF either speeds up or slows down a dungeonparty.

3. How do i play a GF in PVP?
You are not a nodeholder nor a nodeattacker... Don't try to solo someone...
You work as an intercepter in PVP. There are 2 things happening in PVP-Start fighting on 2 as a GF - everyone will focus you: Good. You hopefully got 34k+ hp so you survive this with your shield and your party can dps the **** out of the enemy... THey will just ignore you and focus the CW or DC. Good. Bullscharge and Frontline Surge - also Terrifying IMpact (against unstoppable gwfs) will keep them away so the dc can focus on healing/tanking/nodeblocking and the CW on controlling and DPSing again.. Funny fact: Prone is the strongest kind of cc in PVP - ppl layed prone are NOT able to deflect attacks and can't do anything else but waiting get killed or up again...
By that it means - try not to run around alone. Communicate with your party: Whom you are focusing or who gets focused by the enemy team...
PVP is not about 1vs1, exspecially not as a GF. HR's, TR's and GWF's are way stronger in that act. But also Domination PVP is not about 1vs1 but 5vs5. So it depends on the party, every single Partymember and their acts contribute to a succesful PVP-Match-> Rotater, Nodeholder, Nodeattacker, Nodeblocker, Interceptor.
You my friend and I are the Interceptor - and your best friends are (Nodeblocker/Holder/Rotater) CW's, DC's and GF's.

"What build do you recommand for PVP than"? None. It's good to deal additional DPS as a Conq in PVP. As a defender... You debuff the enemy quite well... probably the only path i'd recommand Swordmasterparagon and a feytouched WE too... the only way to play as a nodeholder/blocker too... A Tactician might be a risky choice in pvp tho...

Some Hints fighting the 1vs1 classes (TR,HR, GWF):
-Stay out of the Thorn Ward of HR's. It's their best dps and debuff... if they snare you in it, try using lunging strike at a far away enemy - the strings will usually break then. and try to BS and frontline them out of it the same time. Info: ThornWard never gets 100% of a point flooded. So stay on the point the Ward does not check the node. Hr's got 5+ Dodges...
If they are too strong... Wait for reinforcement before trying to really get him down or send a tr,hr,gwf,(dc if pvp-specced). They are specialists in 1vs1 fights and will kill you...
-TR's: avoid getting hit by their flurry. Listen to the sounds; when they are invisible, use frontline at the position the sound comes from (when they are throwing knifes), get there when hit and use bullscharge -> Terrifying Impact/lunging strike. Rince repeat. Also the first 2 hits of their flurry make sounds. Be sure to stay as far away from those as possible. Good Tr's will be jumping between the hits to get you cold. TR'S got 2 dodges + a third one comming. Use this for your advantage.
If they are too strong...Wait for reinforcement before trying to really get him down or send a tr,hr,gwf,(dc if pvp-specced). They are specialists in 1vs1 fights and will kill you...
-GWF's: Important thing. Get them in your prone rotations first. Once done. Get as much distance as you can from them. Block only takedown and Roar/Frontline. Use terrifying impact if you have to take them out while unstoppable or to enhance the proneduration... rince/repeat. Count the seconds between their skills, Takedown got a 5-8 seconds cd, roar 7-10, frontline 13+. Try guessing how much determination he build up during your hits+ his roar. That helps alot to guess how long his unstoppable will be up. There is also a "Lock-Mechanism" WHen hitting CTRL. Pressing Shift and CTRL while fighting GWFs will enable you to block them even if they try to run behind your back and knock you down.
If they are too strong...Wait for reinforcement before trying to really get him down or send a tr,hr,gwf,(dc if pvp-specced). They are specialists in 1vs1 fights and will kill you...

Note: DO every PVP-players a favor and don't run into PVP with you PVE-char exspecially if you got 0 Tenacity, below 30k hp and/or are doing it for the daily rough AD... Thank you.

4.Sidefacts:
-Conquererpath has a high Burst-DPS but once the shield is depleted, it'll be just average as a Tactician or Protector - good for pvp as in most situations you can lay single/multiple enemy/s prone, enabling you to regain some guardmeter.
-Protector got many feat increasing it's own and probably the partysurvivabilitys. But if the party is weak - you are no enhancement there either and if the party is strong - why would they take you along then?...
-Tactician provides many feat improving the Party dps and keeping your own dps at average. (enhanced Trample the fallen, crushing pin etc...) but i fear the usefulness in pvp is rather low, as it either depends on surviving or high-burstdps in pvp.
-If you go for PVE get Str and Con (Dps+AP), or Str and Dex (pure DPS).
-If you go for PVP get Con and DEX the highest you can (con 24+, dex 20+)

5. THe love of GF.
I know we miss that alot in PVE. Many reason might have lead to those: GWF-CW-Stomping the DUngeon-Setup. One reason might be that there are far less GF and DC-Players than GWF or CW and those classes tried running Dungeons without a GF/DC realizing they do just fine... The only way to get us back is: There is none. You can only bring yourself back. Running dungeons with your guilds and 1 rnd to increase the rating and thinking of several non-gf players. Exspecially if you and your guild are able to run a dungeon as safe and fast as a GWF/CW-Party. Also get those ppl on your friendlist: Cause when they had some good runs with you - they will ask again

. Unfortunatly that will require you and your guild to have greater WE and r7+ (if aiming for Endgamecontent/ running it fast and efficent...)

I'm sure not everyone is in common with my thoughts. But that's just what i found out during playing all classes in NW for a year now.
In other words... it's my opinion. Besides that: if you are new to NW and want to play a gf - create some smasher first (CW or GWF) - you'll be more likely taken in dungeons and able to enhance your gf faster.
Greetings and farewells travellers.

slushlikewind · June 2014

PvP:

GF is fine. You just need to be good at it and don't premade with it.

PvE:

GF is fine. People always want bunch of high gs and CW/GWF. But the problem is many people can not even PVE properly with their toon so it really doesn't matter what class you have.

drhunter123 · June 2014

Hello all,

Don't read further if you are playing Neverwinter for fun.

Really confused by this?? Are some people (outside of PWE/Cryptic) being paid, or plyaing because they enjoy not having fun?

query523 · June 2014

Conq is just fine in PVE. I kind of consideer Tactician to be the training path. It is better when you are still building your gear up and lerning how to control mobs and manuever your GF. But after that I moved to Conq because here's the thing of it. DPS builds aggro too. And that shield is not going to save you. So you end up getting better control by turning that guard meter into a power meter. I would have agreed with you pre-mod3 on KC as it was all I aver used in PVE. Since the nerf I think the overall stats you can get from other sets make it less useful and it is currently parked in inventory. I have high hopes for the corrupt BI gear because it has more offensive stats than any other GF set in the game.

emilemo · June 2014

drhunter123 wrote: »

Really confused by this?? Are some people (outside of PWE/Cryptic) being paid, or plyaing because they enjoy not having fun?

Dude is pro, his opinion aint for casual players lol

lisaxxii · June 2014

slushlikewind wrote: »

PvP:

GF is fine. You just need to be good at it and don't premade with it.

PvE:

GF is fine. People always want bunch of high gs and CW/GWF. But the problem is many people can not even PVE properly with their toon so it really doesn't matter what class you have.

Wow, really man?

thynael21 · June 2014

query523 wrote: »

Conq is just fine in PVE. I kind of consideer Tactician to be the training path. It is better when you are still building your gear up and lerning how to control mobs and manuever your GF. But after that I moved to Conq because here's the thing of it. DPS builds aggro too. And that shield is not going to save you. So you end up getting better control by turning that guard meter into a power meter. I would have agreed with you pre-mod3 on KC as it was all I aver used in PVE. Since the nerf I think the overall stats you can get from other sets make it less useful and it is currently parked in inventory. I have high hopes for the corrupt BI gear because it has more offensive stats than any other GF set in the game.

You are probably right: The point is... i don't need dps or aggromanagement if anything i hit with my party is cc'd or dead... i can use my guardmeter as much as i want and my dps won't suffer from it. Any hit that gets me directly enables me to get AP through the 5th feat in Tactician enabling me to use villain'S menace (for dps in a singu) or Terrifying Impact more often (additional dmg for surviving stronger adds) to immidiatly lay them prone again after coming out of a singu without kicking them into nirvana so the shard of a cw will not hit its targets (and all the targets will recieve 10% dmg again thx to 1 of our feats.). Into the Fray is a must-have if looking for fast dungeonclearing. THe movementspeed enables the whole party to skip areas with 0 mobs faster, as it also presents 15%+ AP-Gain to the whole party ->More Singus and oppressives of the CW's. with additional 5% dmg (also counting for ourself) with give them **** alot. You can not outdps a cw or gwf. But you can help them increasing their dps by alot - suffering only a little on your own.

The power rework indeed had some sideeffects on kc. But KC is still one of the strongest sets a GF has. An average Endgame-CW has 6k+ power doing 40%? more dmg. 15% of 6k will still push his dps by another 3-5% (+1k power). I want to quote a CW here i'Ve been running in CN 4/4 with: "Wow, i always love running with your buff gf. My Shard hit for 150k DMG." well something like that...
Additional it's not just for the 1 CW but for the whole party, so the healing of a dc is improved as dps of gwfs, hrs, trs, etc... Important to mention is also the 25% defincrease. This will enable lots of squishychars (like glasscannon-pve-cws or gwfs) to endure and survive longer. At least long enough until trash is cleared. Every player downed is 1 player dealing NO dps at all and require a 2nd to pick him up again: Making it 2ppl not interfering in a fight. Many Dracolich-Wipes (And other Endboss-wipes) i have seen are because of this "Chain-of-Death"-Reasons. 25% more def can do quite alot...

BI is indeed an interesting aspect. But i've heard and read that the BI-Gear will not outrun the casual t2/1 (HV of CW, AoW of GWF, HP of DC) gear in the current dungeoncontent. It might be interesting in PVP or IWD itself. Not worth wearing in Dungeons tho. Exspecially not if looking for efficiency.

thynael21 · June 2014

drhunter123 wrote: »

Really confused by this?? Are some people (outside of PWE/Cryptic) being paid, or plyaing because they enjoy not having fun?

"emilemo" is right. It's not for casual players. Sounds hard and is also somewhat intended to be.

thynael21 · June 2014

slushlikewind wrote: »

PvP:

GF is fine. You just need to be good at it and don't premade with it.

PvE:

GF is fine. People always want bunch of high gs and CW/GWF. But the problem is many people can not even PVE properly with their toon so it really doesn't matter what class you have.

My real pleasure in PVP comes from Premade-fighting. For sure it's nice to hit some pug-pve players and stomp them to the ground as the same might happen to you while fighting with pugs... In PVP-Premades tho you'll find exclusive players enhancing their chars to the best and playing them the best (in PVP). Beating them makes yourself being one of the more experienced players yourself for pvp.

Remembering some good old times... there's always been a "lf 1gf and 1dc" in the lfg channels and it didn't matter for what dungeon

.

ripyourlipsoff · June 2014

thynael21 wrote: »

My real pleasure in PVP comes from Premade-fighting. For sure it's nice to hit some pug-pve players and stomp them to the ground as the same might happen to you while fighting with pugs... In PVP-Premades tho you'll find exclusive players enhancing their chars to the best and playing them the best (in PVP). Beating them makes yourself being one of the more experienced players yourself for pvp.

Remembering some good old times... there's always been a "lf 1gf and 1dc" in the lfg channels and it didn't matter for what dungeon .

Yea, I just don't see playing Tank in PvP as efficient, Other classes negate your 50%-52% DR to almost 0 and you limit your own DPS by not running Conq, you don't stand around with your guard up or you will be sorry and dead. Taunting players don't work albeit your Tactician feats to debuff dmg to your party, we are not set up with damage mitigation against players with 35% Crit perfect vorpals or Bilethorn and 2500 ARP...

I respect your opinion, however I think GF is a play style choice and yours is Tank! Mine is annoy the opposition into double teaming me, and beating on their squishies so my other team mate have less to deal with on the other nodes!

thynael21 · June 2014

Well... i mentioned before that the GF is not a 1vs1 class. Besides that: I'd never run into PVP with my PVE-Tactician. It's like running with a 20k hp PVE-CW into pvp... different skills and speccs are needed than.
I'm playing my PVP GF as Conq myself. See potential builds as protector and tacticians too tho. All depends on the feat and skills you specced and use and in which kind of combination to armor and weaponenchants as in the synergy to your partymembers.

query523 · June 2014

thynael21 wrote: »

You are probably right: The point is... i don't need dps or aggromanagement if anything i hit with my party is cc'd or dead... i can use my guardmeter as much as i want and my dps won't suffer from it. Any hit that gets me directly enables me to get AP through the 5th feat in Tactician enabling me to use villain'S menace (for dps in a singu) or Terrifying Impact more often (additional dmg for surviving stronger adds) to immidiatly lay them prone again after coming out of a singu without kicking them into nirvana so the shard of a cw will not hit its targets (and all the targets will recieve 10% dmg again thx to 1 of our feats.). Into the Fray is a must-have if looking for fast dungeonclearing. THe movementspeed enables the whole party to skip areas with 0 mobs faster, as it also presents 15%+ AP-Gain to the whole party ->More Singus and oppressives of the CW's. with additional 5% dmg (also counting for ourself) with give them **** alot. You can not outdps a cw or gwf. But you can help them increasing their dps by alot - suffering only a little on your own.

The power rework indeed had some sideeffects on kc. But KC is still one of the strongest sets a GF has. An average Endgame-CW has 6k+ power doing 40%? more dmg. 15% of 6k will still push his dps by another 3-5% (+1k power). I want to quote a CW here i'Ve been running in CN 4/4 with: "Wow, i always love running with your buff gf. My Shard hit for 150k DMG." well something like that...
Additional it's not just for the 1 CW but for the whole party, so the healing of a dc is improved as dps of gwfs, hrs, trs, etc... Important to mention is also the 25% defincrease. This will enable lots of squishychars (like glasscannon-pve-cws or gwfs) to endure and survive longer. At least long enough until trash is cleared. Every player downed is 1 player dealing NO dps at all and require a 2nd to pick him up again: Making it 2ppl not interfering in a fight. Many Dracolich-Wipes (And other Endboss-wipes) i have seen are because of this "Chain-of-Death"-Reasons. 25% more def can do quite alot...

BI is indeed an interesting aspect. But i've heard and read that the BI-Gear will not outrun the casual t2/1 (HV of CW, AoW of GWF, HP of DC) gear in the current dungeoncontent. It might be interesting in PVP or IWD itself. Not worth wearing in Dungeons tho. Exspecially not if looking for efficiency.

You also gain AP from dealing damage. I made good use of the tactician capstone when I was a tactician build. But conq gains AP at almost the same rate. More with the new Winter's Bounty boon. Actually kind of a lot since I picked it up this morning I am in Menace more than I am out of it. You are correct that BI is not optimal for most classes. The thing is there is a lot more diversity in point distribution for other classes. Just the ArPen on the peices I have has allowed me to move a lot of points other places. I won't have T3 totals until tomorrow afternoon. But I will post them up once I finish my chest and re-figure my build.

thynael21 · June 2014

Good to hear. I'd like to have more and newer info about the Black Ice gear - exspecially for the GF!

Offtopic:
Maybe i should state that i don't think my Tactician is the "best" build a GF can have in PVE. Simply because i don't think something like "the best" exist. I can just refer to my experience, while running dungeons with my gf as conquerer, protector and tactician. Somehow i stayed at my Tactician with KC for now, because it enabled my party to clear mobs of 15+ in 1 rotation (or less).

snappa0126 · June 2014

thynael21 wrote: »

Well... i mentioned before that the GF is not a 1vs1 class.

GF's are more like a 1 vs .35 class

ripyourlipsoff · June 2014

snappa0126 wrote: »

GF's are more like a 1 vs .35 class

Lol, I can solo .35 of a player!

osterdrache · June 2014

Lol, I can solo .35 of a player!

Maybe because u put ur faith in lifesteal than regen ^^

The GF has kind of the same problem the CWs and DCs have in pvp.
Its a support class, their success tied to teammates and pure pvp specs.

Thats the issue: people try to build their GFs as something he is not.
To be good in pvp with a support class u have to understand how pvp domination works. As a gwf, u can simply go to a node, kill everything on there and claim to be a strategic genius. Point capped mission accomplished. As a HR: the same, just more finger works and power rotations. As a TR: the same, if ur at least semi perma and know how big the circle is where u have to jump around to cap or block a point.

With gwf, tr and hr u can have easy success if ur following the rules above. Not so with cw, gf or dc.
These classes require a deeper understanding of domination strategy.
Many many players in NWO lack this understanding.
I am quite sure thynael didnt meant the term "fun" in his initial post, but "casual", the opposite to ambitious and even more important: willing to learn and adapt.

Look around in these forums. So many players so desperatly commited to their ineffective playstyles. Convinced they are so awsome because they crit 7k pugs for 25k with their 10k gs class cannon GF, or healing so much with lifesteal against 6k pugs who have no mitigation or ability to evade. Players bragging about their kill/death ratio while they forget to capture nodes. Players who rage against p2w but have grey shirts and pants. Players with 2/2 set bonuses to boost their gs while abbandoning very powerful 4 set boni. And so on and on and on.

To be not only good but also useful as a GF for ur team, u have to understand ur role and have to minmax ur char. No way putting this gently: if u lack the ambition to learn and play efficient, u will always be toast against the other classes. Its not a balance issue (which we need anyway btw) but an issue of, well, bad play.

Listen to thynael, he is one of the most dedicated GF players i have ever met.

bananachef · June 2014

Name a situation where you'd rather have a GF on the team than another GWF/TR/HR

emilemo · June 2014

snappa0126 wrote: »

GF's are more like a 1 vs .35 class

I guess you both have builds quite different from mine since I view the GF as a 1vs1 (almost)god. Anything can fall and I do mean anything to a GF specced to kill.

ripyourlipsoff · June 2014

osterdrache wrote: »

Maybe because u put ur faith in lifesteal than regen ^^

The GF has kind of the same problem the CWs and DCs have in pvp.
Its a support class, their success tied to teammates and pure pvp specs.

Thats the issue: people try to build their GFs as something he is not.
To be good in pvp with a support class u have to understand how pvp domination works. As a gwf, u can simply go to a node, kill everything on there and claim to be a strategic genius. Point capped mission accomplished. As a HR: the same, just more finger works and power rotations. As a TR: the same, if ur at least semi perma and know how big the circle is where u have to jump around to cap or block a point.

With gwf, tr and hr u can have easy success if ur following the rules above. Not so with cw, gf or dc.
These classes require a deeper understanding of domination strategy.
Many many players in NWO lack this understanding.
I am quite sure thynael didnt meant the term "fun" in his initial post, but "casual", the opposite to ambitious and even more important: willing to learn and adapt.

Look around in these forums. So many players so desperatly commited to their ineffective playstyles. Convinced they are so awsome because they crit 7k pugs for 25k with their 10k gs class cannon GF, or healing so much with lifesteal against 6k pugs who have no mitigation or ability to evade. Players bragging about their kill/death ratio while they forget to capture nodes. Players who rage against p2w but have grey shirts and pants. Players with 2/2 set bonuses to boost their gs while abbandoning very powerful 4 set boni. And so on and on and on.

To be not only good but also useful as a GF for ur team, u have to understand ur role and have to minmax ur char. No way putting this gently: if u lack the ambition to learn and play efficient, u will always be toast against the other classes. Its not a balance issue (which we need anyway btw) but an issue of, well, bad play.

Listen to thynael, he is one of the most dedicated GF players i have ever met.

Well first of all why you are choosing to attack me personally, I have no idea as you cannot speculate to know me / my play style/ or how successful I am or am not!

With that said I will give you some of my tips to you!

1. Regen is not better then Life Steal ( In my opinion ) because we do not have a way to remove ourselves from combat like some classes, we cannot dodge, roll, sprint, vanish etc. we rely on our guard. If you think for 1 second you're going to hold you guard up and regen your hp you are very misguided! 1500- 2000 hp regen every 3 seconds at 50% health with healing depression added in is not going to save you or any other GF, as you will have your guard taken down in seconds and be either cc'd or just killed within the next 20 seconds!

My Life Steal however as not as good on GF as other classes is still superior because I gain hp every hit, between 25hp - 2000hp depending on my damage output. Using the incoming healing bonus, and endless consumption boon give me good bonus healing chances. So while you need to get to half health to get your measly regen heal I 'll be continuously gaining far more hp with every hit before that...

ripyourlipsoff · June 2014

emilemo wrote: »

I guess you both have builds quite different from mine since I view the GF as a 1vs1 (almost)god. Anything can fall and I do mean anything to a GF specced to kill.

We were being facetious, i can handle myself decently but cannot take on GWF / HR / TR of equal skill and gear, I'd love to see a video of you doing so though??

kattefjaes · June 2014

emilemo wrote: »

I guess you both have builds quite different from mine since I view the GF as a 1vs1 (almost)god. Anything can fall and I do mean anything to a GF specced to kill.

I am severely unconvinced by this assertion. Consider this an invitation and perhaps challenge to write up what you're using. I have experimented with a lot of setups on my GF, and while I can hold my own against most people with a following wind, a GWF like my own would smoosh it into the ground, if played sensibly.

It's not just me, either. I was 1v1ing Grimah last night (him: GF me: GWF)- he's trying to find a good setup too. He is a HAMSTER player, but as soon as he made even one mistake, he was lost, as I was all over him like white on rice (though I made the odd mistake too). A similarly GSsed-up HR, GWF, or perma would have had a lot more options. He didn't lose due to lack of skill, just because the GF is comparatively weak against reasonably competent players.

So, care to put your... forum thread where your mouth is, and write up what you're using? Maybe I'm totally wrong, and have missed something vital. Convince me with something viable (none of this broken obsolete "Iron Maiden" tat kthx

).

ripyourlipsoff · June 2014

Kat I too play with some pretty **** good GF players with some great gear set pieces smashed together they all rolled GWFs because they have tried to no avail to beat a GWF of same skill and GS, There are times I catch a GWF low hp and manage to kill him, there are times I can beat a GWF pretty easily and then ask the opposing team his gs and they usually tell me "Yea he has 25k hp and has pve set on" so yea I can beat a poorly geared or bad payed GWF. But against a good pvp geared GWF who knows his class and mine.... Not going to happen!

osterdrache · June 2014

My Life Steal however as not as good on GF as other classes is still superior because I gain hp every hit, between 25hp - 2000hp depending on my damage output. Using the incoming healing bonus, and endless consumption boon give me good bonus healing chances. So while you need to get to half health to get your measly regen heal I 'll be continuously gaining far more hp with every hit before that...

You say, the GF doesnt profit from lifesteal as much as the other classes. And ur right.
And even so, the other classes dont use lfesteal in pvp. No decent pvpler who premades and fights against decet opponents prefers lifesteal over regen. Even the almighty gwfs who always are in the middle of the action and dealing insane dmg numbers still stack more regen than lifesteal. Have u ever thougt about why that is?

Are all the top pvp players missing something while u have found a secret tech for GFs?
I very doubt that.

In another thread concerning GFs I explained it already.
Regen is superior even with HD.
Didnt u watch the infamous video antmonster posted? Most attacks will get dodged if ur fighting a decent opponent = no lifesteal for. Additional: if ur cced or if the enemy is in stealth, u also dont get lifesteal. Ur just bleeding hp to them. With lifesteal u also dont get any hp if u cleared the point and sitting on it to capture it. U also dont get healing with lifesteal if u rotate to another point. Want more examples?

General speaking: with lifesteal u ONLY get hp when u attack AND DEAL dmg. Especially as a GF u dont deal that much dmg, u dont have fast and frequent attacks and u dont have ticking dot-attacks. All classes except gwf have evasion techniques against ur most powerfull attack aka your encounters. They will get dodged/blocked frequently.
Look at a GF vs GF situation for example. Regen is so much more useful than lifesteal there.

The times for GFs have changed. Not only because of balancing issues with gwfs/HRs/TRs but because pvp is now more serious. With tenacity and more and more geared players u cant burst players down like in the old days. Not good and skilled players.

I want a buff for GF, too (maybe because my GF is sitting on fashion items worth millions lol. And has a **** awsome pig mount).
But this buff should enhance the purpose of the class as a Defender. Even with upcoming buffs I am sure many GF players will struggle with their class because they want 1vs1 lunging strike supermans and dont understand the true role of a support class.

Lets focus on buffing his powers to defend ur teammates, buff them and intercept enemy atacks.

ripyourlipsoff · June 2014

osterdrache wrote: »

You say, the GF doesnt profit from lifesteal as much as the other classes. And ur right.
And even so, the other classes dont use lfesteal in pvp. No decent pvpler who premades and fights against decet opponents prefers lifesteal over regen. Even the almighty gwfs who always are in the middle of the action and dealing insane dmg numbers still stack more regen than lifesteal. Have u ever thougt about why that is?

Are all the top pvp players missing something while u have found a secret tech for GFs?
I very doubt that.

In another thread concerning GFs I explained it already.
Regen is superior even with HD.
Didnt u watch the infamous video antmonster posted? Most attacks will get dodged if ur fighting a decent opponent = no lifesteal for. Additional: if ur cced or if the enemy is in stealth, u also dont get lifesteal. Ur just bleeding hp to them. With lifesteal u also dont get any hp if u cleared the point and sitting on it to capture it. U also dont get healing with lifesteal if u rotate to another point. Want more examples?

General speaking: with lifesteal u ONLY get hp when u attack AND DEAL dmg. Especially as a GF u dont deal that much dmg, u dont have fast and frequent attacks and u dont have ticking dot-attacks. All classes except gwf have evasion techniques against ur most powerfull attack aka your encounters. They will get dodged/blocked frequently.
Look at a GF vs GF situation for example. Regen is so much more useful than lifesteal there.

The times for GFs have changed. Not only because of balancing issues with gwfs/HRs/TRs but because pvp is now more serious. With tenacity and more and more geared players u cant burst players down like in the old days. Not good and skilled players.

I want a buff for GF, too (maybe because my GF is sitting on fashion items worth millions lol. And has a **** awsome pig mount).
But this buff should enhance the purpose of the class as a Defender. Even with upcoming buffs I am sure many GF players will struggle with their class because they want 1vs1 lunging strike supermans and dont understand the true role of a support class.

Lets focus on buffing his powers to defend ur teammates, buff them and intercept enemy atacks.

You're entitled to your opinion, don't trash me for mine because you disagree. I feed on killing IV GFs in domination! I'm a Swordmaster and most my kills are IV GFs I wait to unload when their shield guard is below half and then all they can do is try and run away hoping they will regen.... but nope they die! SO disagree all you want I am sure others here have found the same as I...

You are acting like I have NO regen, I have 8% but Life Steal is better! I have 10% ls.

kattefjaes · June 2014

ripyourlipsoff wrote: »

You're entitled to your opinion, don't trash me for mine because you disagree. I feed on killing IV GFs in domination! I'm a Swordmaster and most my kills are IV GFs.

Even if this weren't nonsense, it would make you a big fish in a very small pond, so the point would still be irrelevant. The problem is that above a certain level, no-one cares about GFs.

ripyourlipsoff · June 2014

kattefjaes wrote: »

Even if this weren't nonsense, it would make you a big fish in a very small pond, so the point would still be irrelevant. The problem is that above a certain level, no-one cares about GFs.

True! No argument there.

guille23mx · June 2014

Sadly TRUE

kolatmaster · June 2014

kattefjaes wrote: »

I was 1v1ing Grimah last night (him: GF me: GWF)- he's trying to find a good setup too. He is a HAMSTER player...

Grimah is pure awesome sauce.

aethanas · June 2014

Nice threat to give a hand to all the Guardian Fighters out there.
I used to play a Conqueror too, but recently I changed back to Tactician and part of that change was that the latter gets Action Points even without guarding attacks besides dealing damage to others: a feature direly missed by me on every Conqueror build. So I am a bit surprised that Tactician seems to have the reputation of being a daring choice in terms of PvP.

But aside from talking about roles and how to adapt to them, let us summarise the role of a Guardian Fighter:

A GF does not have much damage, so should rely on his team. (Expectable of a Tank)

A GF does not have much survivability, so should rely on his team. (That was a bit unexpected of a Tank...)

A GF is utterly a supporter in PvP, that is: a prone-o-bot. (Really? That is all?)

A GF is able to prevent his allies from getting hurt -- by risky means; but not efficiently in PvP. (Sad story)

A GF is able to boost the party damage -- a bit; but not efficiently in PvP. (Sad story 2)

Fun fact: The support classes are fully replaceable by all damaging classes -- except the Control Wizard. (Thanks that at least one supporter gives needed support.)

Another fun fact: The support classes are fully unable to replace even a mediocre damaging class -- except the Control Wizard. (Again, good to see that one supporter survived.)

emilemo · June 2014

ripyourlipsoff wrote: »

We were being facetious, i can handle myself decently but cannot take on GWF / HR / TR of equal skill and gear, I'd love to see a video of you doing so though??

Well, a video aint gonna happen

since im not into recording myself. That being said what is "equal skill and gear" ? How do you measure it in a Domination or open PVP ? The only way I know to gain some insight is to go to IWD with my guild in two opposing teams and just have duels for a few hours. Yet that is still far from "equal skill and gear" since everyone has different GS and play style ( 'sept for GWFs who mostly do the same thing).

I'm basing my comments on the fact the a GF can end someone in 2-3 hits and people dont expect that. It comes with a huge risk most of the time (reckless attacker indeed). When I use KC on a GWF in a 1vs1 scenario I risk more than him, so lets say he has higher GS than me but I drop him - is that skill or gear or lack of skill ?

My point is that PVP in 98% of cases is all situational and relative but realistically speaking a GF has the tools to defeat any class in a single combat.

emilemo · June 2014

kattefjaes wrote: »

I am severely unconvinced by this assertion. Consider this an invitation and perhaps challenge to write up what you're using. I have experimented with a lot of setups on my GF, and while I can hold my own against most people with a following wind, a GWF like my own would smoosh it into the ground, if played sensibly.

It's not just me, either. I was 1v1ing Grimah last night (him: GF me: GWF)- he's trying to find a good setup too. He is a HAMSTER player, but as soon as he made even one mistake, he was lost, as I was all over him like white on rice (though I made the odd mistake too). A similarly GSsed-up HR, GWF, or perma would have had a lot more options. He didn't lose due to lack of skill, just because the GF is comparatively weak against reasonably competent players.

So, care to put your... forum thread where your mouth is, and write up what you're using? Maybe I'm totally wrong, and have missed something vital. Convince me with something viable (none of this broken obsolete "Iron Maiden" tat kthx ).

You are correct, one mistake and it is over. That is exactly why a GF cant afford mistakes until they get some kind of improvement. My own Destroyer has had trouble killing a tank GF in a domination. He lasted long enough for his team to arrive. I've lost count of how many times I've said it already but PVP ( unless a sanctioned duel in IWD ) is purely situational. Be it pugs or premades you can always be caught off guard, from behind or while fighting other people and then you fall regardless of class, gear and skill. I've fallen many times but 99% of my losses are vs more than 1 person and Im willing to bet its a similar situation with most people. So how do you figure how good or bad, strong or weak your toon is when you're gettin chain killed by 2-3 people ? Answer is you cant. People can only see their point of view and speak from personal experience. In my experience people fall fast or I hold them unless zerged.

So lets look into my toon a bit. He started as IV Conq and was doing pretty good. Usual PVP setup was - LS/KC/BC with passives CS/ST, TRush/ToI at wills and TI/SoS daily. There you have all the tools to kill/contest anything solo. You are as mobile as a GF can be, you have increased Guard meter ( full set bonus + passive ) you have DR debuffs ( mark + ToI ) you can regen guard meter and you have the best dmg buff ever. You can burst non-tankier players in 1 rotation and if its a pvp CW with 30k+ HP you'll need maybe 2 rotations. You can stop unstoppable GWFs, you can even counter perma TR. Certain HRs I've found to be the most trouble of any class.

Recently I managed to set aside the idea that a GF cant PVP without TRush and I went SM. At first it was super awkward not having my gap closer on the right mouse button. But as few matches went by things became clear. The SM is stronger in PVP. Stronger in PVE too as I soloed my first Totem in the Pass last night with minimum potions use and no deaths ha! Previously I was only able to solo those on my 17k Destroyer

One significant change to my tool set as a SM is the swap of Shiled Talent to Steel Defence. At-Wills Im still experimenting with. Encounters are the same.

In conclusion I'd like to dispute a long standing axiom - "GWF getting IV was the biggest mistake of the devs". You've heard it, maybe you even said it yourself. That doesnt make it less wrong. IV works much better for a GWF than it ever did for a GF, thats a fact and SM works better for a GF than it ever did for me when I was a SM GWF. As a GWF I nvr utilized the 5 sec invulnerability. On my GF who builds AP so fast I use it all the time - it was meant to be so.

EDIT - we do need a buff as GFs tho

This is what he looks like on gateway

GF - PVE and PVP - The Analysis Of A Year

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