Why the royal fek should any CW+GWF+DC party ever putup with a TR no matter how much it reverts back to the olden days, when they still can easily clear 5... 6... 7... 10 mobs at a time with more than twice, thrice as much efficiency than with a TR in the team?
This is why I suggested At-Wills as my solutions, to address the current mechanics of dungeon runs. Neither buffing nor nerfing will be the solution for TRs. They need to contribute to the add fest in a more meaningful manner. Everyone else wants to change gameplay mechanics with so many suggestions for dungeons/PVE or PVP to find a balance, where any one such change need to address 6 classes instead of just the TR, that even if devs were willing, will take ages to flesh out. They cannot simply make the TR more essential without consideration for parties without a TR.
TR is a mixed bag with their encounters where damage can range from the damage of GF encounters which are relatively low, since they can benefit more from crit. This carries over to their AOE encounters which becomes lackluster in dungeons. They neglected an AOE at-will on the TR for consistency in dealing with adds with large hitpoints in dungeons unlike the other melee classes.
Why this IMHO is important is because the TR's DPS has an acceleration curve which comes mainly from Duelist's Flurry because there is no other better alternative. People think that TR no longer does good single target DPS relatively compared to the GWF. It's not, TR's single target DPS has simply been throttled since beta, and they can only excel with bosses with very large health pools. And with adds, there's just not enough time for the TR to do much before CWs and GWFs kill off the adds quickly with their comparatively more powerful encounters because of the acceleration curve and single target focus of TRs.
The issue really is everything being about AoE and Mod3 didn't even bring any new dungeons.
Let's see to patch things for rogues in this current environment for the most part they only need to raise target caps which shouldn't be much work. Here's my go at it:
**
Lashing blade from 1 to 3 target max
Dazing from 3 to 5 target max
Blitz from 5 to 10 target max
Whirlwind of blades from 5 to 15 max(power buff still capped at 5)
Wicked Reminder +20% damage +2 sec duration to debuff stacks
Shocking Execution does triple damage vs bosses **
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Which part of "if its OP for PvP, then its OP for PvE" do you not understand?
The 'difference' between PvP and PvE is superficial. The only thing that really matters is where the performance of a given class/character is adequate in relation to the 'target' that needs to be cleared. 35~40k Lashing Blades is just blatantly OP in PvE as it is in PvP. A ranged encounter like Impact Shot that fires off 4 times before going into a bit of a recharge and hits for 8~9k each, is OP.
Divide the amount of damage dealt with the numbers of mobs received and let's see if the CW really "outdamages" the TR. The GWF may have better single target damage as well as better AoE damage, but aside from that single class TR comes in close 2nd. Pain Giver/Executioner stats are the most frickin' stupid and misleading, useless set of numbers in any PvE content which doesn't represent even 1/4th of what your character has done during the game -- it is a stupid "frame", a "language" in which the most idiot of PvE cheese munchers have set up and you're speaking it.
Go look in a mirror, dude.
You've got zero grasp on the structural problems revolving around PvE, even less than this old PvPer, and just blaming everything on "nerfs"... and who's calling who "shortsighted"? ROFL :rolleyes:
Do you play / played 'high-end' PvE TR ?
(edit- i'm not trolling or bashful , i really asking what point of view your opinion comes from)
Which part of "if its OP for PvP, then its OP for PvE" do you not understand?
The 'difference' between PvP and PvE is superficial.
I wonder if we play the same game..
Lets start:
[th][/th]
[th]PvE[/th]
[th]PvP[/th]
Strategic goal for a team
Get to the end and kill the boss to get loot
Hold points
Tactical PoV for TR
get CA and focus big dude to maximize damage efficiency
'hit and run' points with invis, occupy as many of enemy team, or burst specific targets
Enemies Qty
from ****load to crapton
around 5 (less/more on openworld and a bit more for GG)
Enemy HP
15k-millions
20k-40k
Enemy Defence
negligible, crazy debuffed and capped at 24%
30% - 40% + Tenacity + other buffs
Behavior
Arrrgh bash, kill
yes, i already see how GF 'aggro' all the enemy team and let squishes burst them down without interference.
Behavior 2
Cannot dodge, even when they see that lashing coming
I think i saw few dodge, go invis, unstoppable, side-step, and god forbids even more complex things...
1. I can go on... but bottom line the setting is different and should be different. What makes the target both in the big picture and per encounter different.
2. The claim that PvE should change to be more like PvP is nice but evidently not realistic and also shortsighted, part of PvE is to fight big bad bosses and hordes of mobs... i dont want to fight 5 at a time no matter the class.
And as you stated, everything is relative to the target to be cleared. TR is not adequate for mob fights and now even boss fights not so much.
3. Lashing blade OP in PvE ? i wonder how a 40k damage is OP for in example fulmi/draco who have HP in the millions.Or perhaps we should tickle them to death ?! Also i wonder how it is OP relative to 100k AoE IBS bu thats another gripe.
4. Impact shot - why would i use it in PvE ? Or i should stand and one-shot cobolds with encounter killing 4 out of 20 ? Doesn't sound effective to me, i can one-two hit them with sly.
Perhaps it's good to dismount Mobs from mounts ? no, no dismounting.
Maybe bursting ? 4x8k =32k, lashing / DF / dazzing do more, so not good for bursting.
5. GWF can do the same single target DPS as TR without being 'glass'. Good CW can do more than 80% single target and staying ranged.
So what is TRs function in all of this ? guard the door ?
While i agree that many changes should be done, from dungeon mechanics to other classes to make TR desirable, PvP and PvE will never be the same, both because of the goal differences and because of todays limit of AI programming. As such realistic changes should be made / suggested.
Stating
some way to make it more desirable to use TRs as both DPS and utility
Is to vogue to be meaningful, imo. And the whole point if the thread was Starters will to state what he thinks those changes should be.
Bottom line, PvE and PvP hardly the same, different goals and different tactics to achieve that goal, different adversary to that goal.
IMO, the skills should have double effects one for PvE and another for PvP, when damaged calculated, everything that is NPC got 1 and Players will get the other. I think TR is a good example where is can be implemented as there is no complex skill interaction like chill,smolder but more straight forward DPS with single DF bleed DoT and one debuff.
Also i'm more inclined that TR damage should be buffed as single target class with perhaps small AoE instead of adding massive AoE. I dont want another copy of GWF/meele HR, there should be uniqueness in classes. but can't have a glass cannon without the cannon, while there is a massive modern Tank bashing and killing nearby.
side note - i'm not the best PvE TR out there, but i want to think after playing from Open Beta only TR, respecing about half dozen times to try new things, and even making a **** calculater to get maximum expected value of my DPS (with the constrains of what items i have or my not so smart skill roll a year ago) i did learned a thing or two about PvE TRs
Strategic goal for a team
Get to the end and kill the boss to get loot
Hold points
Tactical PoV for TR
get CA and focus big dude to maximize damage efficiency
'hit and run' points with invis or burst specific targets
Enemies Qty
from ****load to crapton
around 5 (less on openworld and a bit more for GG)
Enemy HP
15k-millions
20k-40k
Enemy Defence
negligible, crazy debuffed and capped at 24%
30% - 40% + Tenacity + other buffs
Behavior
Arrrgh bash, kill
yes, i already see how GF 'aggro' all the enemy team and let squishes burst them down without interference.
Behavior 2
Cannot dodge, even when they see that lashing coming
I think i saw few dodge, go invis, unstoppable, side-step, and god forbids even more complex things...
1. I can go on... but bottom line the setting is different and should be different. What makes the target both in the big picture and per encounter different.
2. The claim that PvE should change to be more like PvP is nice but evidently not realistic and also shortsighted, part of PvE is to fight big bad bosses and hordes of mobs... i dont want to fight 5 at a time no matter the class.
And as you stated, everything is relative to the target to be cleared. TR is not adequate for mob fights and now even boss fights not so much.
3. Lashing blade OP in PvE ? i wonder how a 40k damage is OP for in example fulmi/draco who have HP in the millions.Or perhaps we should tickle them to death ?! Also i wonder how it is OP relative to 100k AoE IBS bu thats another gripe.
4. Impact shot - why would i use it in PvE ? Or i should stand and one-shot cobolds with encounter killing 4 out of 20 ? Doesn't sound effective to me, i can one-two hit them with sly.
Perhaps it's good to dismount Mobs from mounts ? no, no dismounting.
Maybe bursting ? 4x8k =32k, lashing / DF / dazzing do more, so not good for bursting.
5. GWF can do the same single target DPS as TR without being 'glass'. Good CW can do more than 80% single target and staying ranged.
So what is TRs function in all of this ? guard the door ?
Bottom line, PvE and PvP hardly the same, different goals and different tactics to achieve that goal, different adversary to that goal.
IMO, the skills should have double effects one for PvE and another for PvP, when damaged calculated, everything that is NPC got 1 and Players will get the other. I think TR is a good example where is can be implemented as there is no complex skill interaction like chill,smolder but more straight forward DPS with single DF bleed DoT and one debuff.
Every single thing you have mentioned is irrelevant. Everything.
The boss mobs with millions of HP aren't even an issue. The only thing in PvE that matters is how fast you reach the end-zone with the given team composition, and with currently how the dungeons are set-up, in whatever scenario you can conjure up there is no room for TRs -- EVAH.
40k LB? Why not ask for 60k? 70k? 100k? Let's wait to land our mighty 100k LB against eight mobs, at least once each. Yipee, 8 x 20sec recharge = 2.6 minutes. In that span of time, a GWF+CW party has vacuumed up three mob groups and moving onto the forth. TRs aren't shunned from PvE content because they are weak. TRs are shunned because they don't fit the PvE meta based on AoE-efficiency.
You know what that means?
IT MEANS TRs WOULD HAVE BEEN EVENTUALLY SHUNNED IN THE EXACT SAME MANNER EVEN WITHOUT HAVING RECEIVED ANY NERFS AT ALL
It is a result of the changing meta that killed the place of classes like GFs, TRs or HRs in PvE. The nerfs have actually got NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.
Oi, you poor, poor deluded people. When are you EVER going to realize this.
(ps) Here's a tip for ya. LB was never 'nerfed'. It just got bugfixed to acknowledge enemy defense/armor/etc. properly. Go look it up in the forum posts of the past.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
edited June 2014
Did i calimed LB was nerfed ? or have i called you deluded ?
I think i answered your claim point by point in precise and polite manner.
I dont see you are doing the same....
Nor was i speculative.
You calimed PvE and PvP are the same, I reffered to it, please state where am i wrong.
IT MEANS TRs WOULD HAVE BEEN EVENTUALLY SHUNNED IN THE EXACT SAME MANNER EVEN WITHOUT HAVING RECEIVED ANY NERFS AT ALL
Just to make a point:
If a TR can kill all the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> on the way single target by single target while the GWF still swinging, he will not be shunned ( fact - that how it was around beta )
If a TR can Top pain giver he will not be shunned - doesn;t matter if its a good measurement or not - psychology 101.
But thats only an argument point and nothing else.
40k LB? Why not ask for 60k? 70k? 100k? Let's wait to land our mighty 100k LB against eight mobs, at least once each. Yipee, 8 x 20sec recharge = 2.6 minutes.
You are the one claime LB is OP, not i. Let me quote you:
35~40k Lashing Blades is just blatantly OP in PvE as it is in PvP.
let me quote myself:
Also i wonder how it is OP relative to 100k AoE IBS bu thats another gripe.
So now it is useless ? please pick one..
And i specifically referred dungeon changes:
While i agree that many changes should be done, from dungeon mechanics to other classes to make TR desirable, PvP and PvE will never be the same, both because of the goal differences and because of todays limit of AI programming. As such realistic changes should be made / suggested.
Which you ignored and you have not suggested anything implementable, only 'something' should be done.
(at least not that i saw)
You claim everyone deluded, nice, but perhaps trying to read someones post before jumping to some invented conclusions is better ?
English is my third language, if i was not clear, i will clarify any point...
IMO, the skills should have double effects one for PvE and another for PvP, when damaged calculated, everything that is NPC got 1 and Players will get the other. I think TR is a good example where is can be implemented as there is no complex skill interaction like chill,smolder but more straight forward DPS with single DF bleed DoT and one debuff.
They claimed that they introduced tenacity as a way to "control" PvE vs. PvP damage.
But it seems the tool is there, but the manpower (and brainpower) is not available in the amount necessary to do anything useful with tenacity in regards to PvE vs PvP performance. Pity.
i'm not the best PvE TR out there, but i want to think after playing from Open Beta only TR, respecing about half dozen times to try new things, and even making a **** calculater to get maximum expected value of my DPS (with the constrains of what items i have or my not so smart skill roll a year ago) i did learned a thing or two about PvE TRs
Yes, your TR's performance in dungeons is quite acceptable.
The boss mobs with millions of HP aren't even an issue. The only thing in PvE that matters is how fast you reach the end-zone with the given team composition, and with currently how the dungeons are set-up, in whatever scenario you can conjure up there is no room for TRs -- EVAH.
I must one of those crazy dudes that play a game for fun.
I am always happy to have micky1p00's TR in my DD group when the opportunity arises.
I might prefer to have less than 3 TR in the group, but basically I don't understand why you think the TR is useless. You do remember this is a game you play for recreation, right? at least for me it is not "how can I make 5 SP runs within the hour".
Of course an easy way out is to demand buffs and such if your personal performance is not to your liking, but having a good TR (a bit skilled and a bit equipped) in a group is good enough for me.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
edited June 2014
They claimed that they introduced tenacity as a way to "control" PvE vs. PvP damage.
But it seems the tool is there, but the manpower (and brainpower) is not available in the amount necessary to do anything useful with tenacity in regards to PvE vs PvP performance. Pity.
Yes, and i was thinking about much further,
In example smoke bomb doing DoT for PvE,
LB having Different target cap for PvE and so on..
PotB not so useless in PvE (everything dies before it even tickles something)
This dis-chaining can help balance both PvP and PvE simultaneously without cross effects (Tenacity can't do it) and perhaps less of this: http://www.nerfnow.com/comic/1297
The only thing in PvE that matters is how fast you reach the end-zone with the given team composition, and with currently how the dungeons are set-up, in whatever scenario you can conjure up there is no room for TRs -- EVAH.
That's a farmer's mentality, and while true for yourself, is still a preference. There are also players who simply enjoy the process of dungeon runs. Also, you may not have ran with really well geared PVE TRs which can stay competitive with a CW or GWF up to 13-14k GS bracket, albeit disadvantaged with having to have higher GS/better equips than them. That said, TRs' DPS diminishes exponentially with how many high GS/well geared CWs or GWFs stacked in the party, and these are mostly farming parties popular in the LFG channel.
TRs are shunned because they don't fit the PvE meta based on AoE-efficiency.
This is true, TR's DPS diminishes so rapidly when stacking CWs and GWFs, but again it's a farmer's mentality. Run a rainbow party with friends and guildies or just pug a queue, TRs can still contribute much.
I do not think everyone here is deluded, TR players simply desire their class to be more competitive without the need to overcompensate with GS and good gear. I have beaten 14-15k CWs and GWFs in rainbow parties where there was only 1 or 2 of them, TRs do have a place in dungeon parties, just not CWF stacked farms. They just need a little more consistency in the AOE department to be put into consideration and not be a turn off for PUGs.
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
Every single thing you have mentioned is irrelevant. Everything.
The boss mobs with millions of HP aren't even an issue. The only thing in PvE that matters is how fast you reach the end-zone with the given team composition, and with currently how the dungeons are set-up, in whatever scenario you can conjure up there is no room for TRs -- EVAH.
Oi, you poor, poor deluded people. When are you EVER going to realize this. .
I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is...
Lets remove those Rogue nerfs and see what happens?
That Meta has been here since the BEGINNING of the game rogues were never this unpopular before. While a lot of things have changed, those nerfs DID hurt the class... a great deal.
But hey... I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is... lets see how Rogues would fare with all the useless and irreleven Nerfs that crushed their damage in PvE...
One thing that the TR suffers from and which has not been mentioned at all is the over saturation effect. This is when everyone and their mother wants to play a ninja dual wielding uber death monkey master of shadows. Thus you end up with a full 1/4 of the player base playing the same character.
Now couple this with the fact that like 95% of those wanna be ninjas just suck at being TR. They don't grasp and utilize the class optimally let alone fit the current zerg meta. So you have as we have seen over time now, parties get these players in groups, see how ineffective they are, and refuse to bring them again. This process multiplies exponentially and you end up with an anti TR sentiment.
For the purpose of comparison, this is the same thing that happened to the HR as well. Over saturation combined with a poor showing will result in a death spiral for a class.
The problem is a lot of us top end PvE TR's are usually only grouping with guildies and so the vast majority of the player base doesn't get to see the benefits of a well played TR in a party to help fight this sentiment.
I am not saying the TR does not need a few powers tweaked, but with the fix to combat advantage and some smart playing a TR can do just fine at the moment at what it was intended to do. So consider this before recommending going off the deep end with buffs.
I am not saying the TR does not need a few powers tweaked, but with the fix to combat advantage and some smart playing a TR can do just fine at the moment at what it was intended to do. So consider this before recommending going off the deep end with buffs.
I'd agree that was surprisingly large for TRs, the increase in combat advantage which technically affected everyone is huge for this class.
The biggest problem for TRs with regards to that is that they often turn the mobs on them fairly quickly and lose that combat advantage just as fast as they gained it.
I can see it when my Nightmare Wizardry procs and there's a geared rogue in the party as his damage jumps enormously. That said, that depends on a Wizard.... and then one who actually feats it which tends to be mostly Renegade Spec CWs. Then you guys can actually get a combat advantage when they turn on you too.
The massive jump in Combat Advantage damage multiplier has been a major step for rogues in getting back to that damage but there's still a long ways to go to UNDO that damage that has been caused up to this point with all these assorted nerfs.
The Fix to combat advantage damage was meant to be the beginning of a domino effect I believe. One that would see benefits to GF, HR and TR as well. After this fix was done one of the fastest smoothest runs I've been on with my TR was with a threat generating GF. I was always attacking mobs backs and my damage was very nice. It was an MC run, we had two CW with perfect vorpals and I still cleared 13 million damage.
The threat generation issue also plays into the domino effect as well. TR's can now do great damage when attacking from behind and so now you want someone who can keep baddies backs to the TR, thus the GF now becomes way more useful. Many people underestimate what combat advantage can really do.
The Fix to combat advantage damage was meant to be the beginning of a domino effect I believe. One that would see benefits to GF, HR and TR as well. After this fix was done one of the fastest smoothest runs I've been on with my TR was with a threat generating GF. I was always attacking mobs backs and my damage was very nice. It was an MC run, we had two CW with perfect vorpals and I still cleared 13 million damage.
The threat generation issue also plays into the domino effect as well. TR's can now do great damage when attacking from behind and so now you want someone who can keep baddies backs to the TR, thus the GF now becomes way more useful. Many people underestimate what combat advantage can really do.
In that way its a MAJOR success,
That combination of the Tank/Rogue is a pair much like the CW/GWF team. Both play off each other very very well.
Its about time Cryptic started thinking in these terms... that is a long term fix for group viabillity.
Granted it affects all classes, and I notice it on my CW as well, but for once things are looking up for rogues. I know you guys get a lot of combat advantage related feats and encounters too.
I'd actually like to see this taken a step further with synergistic feats between classes such as rogues gaining a damage bonus or decreased threat against marked targets or GF getting bonus damage and threat against targets that are bleeding etc.
If thevdevs did this and got rid of stacking debuffs from similar sources, it would go a long way towards promoting variety in groups.
If the devs did this and got rid of stacking debuffs from similar sources, it would go a long way towards promoting variety in groups.
That's the only one... I'm not so sure is a good idea. While I definitely like the idea of synergies between the classes, the stacking debuffs are what allow the other classes to contribute.
The idea here is class synergy, and excluding those you could end up excluding other classes, which is counter productive to what you're trying to achieve.
"TR on boss" We said that a hundred times before mod2.
Nowadays another melee class wiped them from Lfg channel.
TRs theoretically should have the biggest single target but aganst encounters which can easily crit 100k+ they have no chance.
Yes that would be Gwfs and their buffed IBS.
After deep gash was fixed there was a slight chance that the days of TRs would return somewhat but GWFs was quickly "recompensated" +40% unstoppable dmg,+30% IBS dmg and various buffs.
One thing that the TR suffers from and which has not been mentioned at all is the over saturation effect. This is when everyone and their mother wants to play a ninja dual wielding uber death monkey master of shadows. Thus you end up with a full 1/4 of the player base playing the same character.
Now couple this with the fact that like 95% of those wanna be ninjas just suck at being TR. They don't grasp and utilize the class optimally let alone fit the current zerg meta. So you have as we have seen over time now, parties get these players in groups, see how ineffective they are, and refuse to bring them again. This process multiplies exponentially and you end up with an anti TR sentiment.
For the purpose of comparison, this is the same thing that happened to the HR as well. Over saturation combined with a poor showing will result in a death spiral for a class.
The problem is a lot of us top end PvE TR's are usually only grouping with guildies and so the vast majority of the player base doesn't get to see the benefits of a well played TR in a party to help fight this sentiment.
I am not saying the TR does not need a few powers tweaked, but with the fix to combat advantage and some smart playing a TR can do just fine at the moment at what it was intended to do. So consider this before recommending going off the deep end with buffs.
u know how many <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> cw are out there?
90% cw in pve are quite bad and dont use their potential.its the same with tr but the class is to bad.
That's the only one... I'm not so sure is a good idea. While I definitely like the idea of synergies between the classes, the stacking debuffs are what allow the other classes to contribute.
The idea here is class synergy, and excluding those you could end up excluding other classes, which is counter productive to what you're trying to achieve.
Let me clarify. By similar I mean from the exact same source. Example you have two thaumaturge with the CoI debuff. Under my proposal you could only have one active on enemies at a time thus it would actually do very little good by stacking CW anymore. They would become redundant without variety.
Debuffs from different classes would still apply though as they are not that type and source as the CoI debuff however they too would not stack with each other(example an add could only be effected by one SotS no matter how many GWF or only one Disheartening Strike no matter how many TR and etc)
Each classes debuffs stack with the other classes just not with their own. This promotes variety and discouraged the current meta as it will become more efficient to gets buffs and damages from other sources.
"TR on boss" We said that a hundred times before mod2.
Nowadays another melee class wiped them from Lfg channel.
TRs theoretically should have the biggest single target but aganst encounters which can easily crit 100k+ they have no chance.
Yes that would be Gwfs and their buffed IBS.
After deep gash was fixed there was a slight chance that the days of TRs would return somewhat but GWFs was quickly "recompensated" +40% unstoppable dmg,+30% IBS dmg and various buffs.
and I do not have any "remorse" that since nobody cared about the fact that gwf was kicked before the start dungeons. not be prioritized in lfg is a sub <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> drama.
which does not change the fact that the rogue needs to be competitive while also dps.
if it were not for the buff to gwf, the rogue still ignored. simple.
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tankinatorfrMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 107Bounty Hunter
edited June 2014
By advance, sorry if I am not clear, English isn't my first language.
If I can make a suggestion, you are looking for a way to improve the rogue's abilities in dungeon without making him OP ?
Well, if the best way would be to re-create dungeon, with a more important number of different situation (already well discussed any-way), I think of a simple buff that will improve it's efficiency in dealing with big mobs while keeping him safe from any counterpart in PvP : increase duelist fury's max stack.
For example, let's extend it to 15 or 20 instead of 10. rogues will get monstrous 1vs1 damage when they stack it, but as it is nearly impossible to stack it on a player in pvp (and also, useless because they often dye or kill too fast), we can assume there will be a limited impact here.
It is just a suggestion, and buffing 1 power will not be enough, but maybe this can be a helpful buff, with limited negative effects...
If there were not these pumped gwf, the girls would love tr by her inner beauty ...
I think I missed something. we're talking about preference or efficiency? If you want the gwf go down for aesthetic differences (and not the rogue and the other classes are on a par with cw / gwf) well, it's a boring situation, no?
Doubling the target caps for the rogue AoE would go a long ways towards improving rogue performance in Castle Neverending Adds. While they can also use a general damage increase, I feel they also need too look into nerfing stealth for this to happen.
this is most recent paingiver posted from full run cn,raibow party as it was intended
yeah tr doesn need no buff its all good lol
AoE and DoT damage tends to go far in score-padding -- the example being that I can usually rank on average 2nd, or at worst 3rd place in paingiver with a Whisperknife, since being a WK adds an automatic 20k damage within 5 seconds to every target crit with DHS. Stick in the knife to 3 enemies visible, and that's 60k damage added on top of other damage you do. This trend is actually the same for most other games as well, hence a class with good DoTs or AoEs will always rank as the highest in total amount of damage dealt.
(In retrospect, also the reason why MI based TRs that simply used to rely on spamming Shoxecution are now doing like <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. With Shox nerfed, they've removed the one trick from a one-trick pony. MIs have nothing for PvP now. No real AoEs...no real DoTs... no nuthin' -- as compared to WKs with very strong DoTs, as well as feats that boost the performance of the weak TR AoEs to at least mediocre levels.)
So frankly, no, I don't see anything wrong with the CWs. Ranged/caster classes will always deal damage more efficiently than melee - especially with the amount of AoEs they have usually (as in any game) -- provided that the melees do their job and hold aggro and protect the ranged/casters.
The only thing I see wrong from this picture is clearly how the GWF is simply overboard.
It's not difficult to guess how he amasses that much damage in comparison to others.
He's the toughest. He doesn't need to move around or dodge anything unless it is one of those one-hit-death mega-red circles. He's physically more resilient than its cousin which carries a big-<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> shield, since he has a one-button defense that's even better than a shield. While to protect himself the GF has to raise the shield and stop its attack, he doesn't need to. As a main tank healing/support is always primarily centered around him, as well as CC support from those very CWs. If a mob moves away, he can get back into range with a single push of a button and start swinging again. Every boss/middle-boss with a huge pool of HP will pad his damage count with every IBS used. "Based on percentage of health" damage mechanic will do that, just like Shoxecution used to -- except IBS is an encounter that repeats every 15secs or so. Imagine how much damage a TR would do with the old-version Shoxecution available every 15 seconds.
In short, GWFs have no "deal-loss" timing where any other melee class like the TR or GF goes through. He doesn't need to dodge or block. His back-to-back Unstoppable is all he needs in most cases. He gets the most support, access to most mobs at a given time, and swings around almost unfair amount of damage.
Remember when I said if something is OP in PvP, then it is OP in PvE as well? Perhaps now people understand. Just because mobs don't complain don't mean everything's OK in PvE. The GWF just performs too well. Just frickin' tone down and return the bullshi* IBS as it was before and I guarantee that'd chop off at least 10 million from that score.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
so ... this is another gwf trap? in which these people find that the act of verbalizing an "idea" makes it reality? (I hate modernity)
1 - see that hilarious. someone help me there: in much a cw can increase the damage of gwf? and as gwf can increase the damage of the cw? (bf dont work ... at least with dc)
Briefly: Part of this gwf damage IS CW DAMAGE (and dc let's be honest). but the converse is not true. this demonstrates the qualitative difference that still exists between the two classes (I'm not complaining.I even like this new dynamic.).
2 - the cw itself is proof that being "op" in pve not imply being "op" in pvp.
Always be wary of anyone who says "the problem is designating the dungeons." are people who are wanting to maintain the hegemony of its class. no more, sir. no more.
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
so ... this is another gwf trap? in which these people find that the act of verbalizing an "idea" makes it reality? (I hate modernity)
1 - see that hilarious. someone help me there: in much a cw can increase the damage of gwf? and as gwf can increase the damage of the cw? (bf dont work ... at least with dc)
Briefly: Part of this gwf damage IS CW DAMAGE (and dc let's be honest). but the converse is not true. this demonstrates the qualitative difference that still exists between the two classes (I'm not complaining.I even like this new dynamic.).
2 - the cw itself is proof that being "op" in pve not imply being "op" in pvp.
Always be wary of anyone who says "the problem is designating the dungeons." are people who are wanting to maintain the hegemony of its class. no more, sir. no more.
Well he is partially right.
The CW thrives in Mass Mob situations, that's what its designed to take on, ergo... any dungeon with a ton of mass mobs the CWs are going to have huge amounts of damage. His weakness... is single target damage. This is why hes not so good in PvP and never will be as a pure damager.
That's what CWs rely on GWFs for.
While the GWF contributes AoE damage through Front Line Surge and several other smaller AoEs getting there.... its nothing close to what the CW does in a crowd like that.... conversely, the GWF just slaughters the CW in single target damage.
When you combine the Cleric and CWs debuffs/buffs on the Boss Mobs they enable the GWF to shine like there's no tomorrow.
Its a synergy between the Three Classes that is perfect for these dungeons where you have a ton of mass mobs to get there, and then an uber tough... like million or more health Boss Mob...
The other secret is that the CW is not a very good controller... BUT... combine the CWs short 3 second stun and 1 second prones with the GWFs prones, stuns and slows, and togather they can take on huge amounts of mass mobs, each one covering the deficiencies of the other.
This is why this group functions so well togather. It not one class or the other, its the synergy of all three that do it... and a dungeon design that's perfect for that.
The GF if they could hold mass mob agro better or at least take it back once they lose it, could be a contributer if they survive as they could keep a single point of Mobs on them. The Rogue, if they had not been so viciously nerfed COULD be the single target damager on boss and Elite mobs as the CW can provide Nightmare Wizardry to boost their CA damage on top of everything.
so ... this is another gwf trap? in which these people find that the act of verbalizing an "idea" makes it reality? (I hate modernity)
The amount of crapshi* the class forces others to go through, its very existence is a trap to itself. Its what happens when you start sucking the most blatantly obvious OP class. Suck it up.
1 - see that hilarious. someone help me there: in much a cw can increase the damage of gwf? and as gwf can increase the damage of the cw? (bf dont work ... at least with dc)
Briefly: Part of this gwf damage IS CW DAMAGE (and dc let's be honest). but the converse is not true. this demonstrates the qualitative difference that still exists between the two classes (I'm not complaining.I even like this new dynamic.).
Honestly, I have no idea what you're saying. Request a bit of grammar.
2 - the cw itself is proof that being "op" in pve not imply being "op" in pvp.
So who says CWs are OP in PvE?
Always be wary of anyone who says "the problem is designating the dungeons." are people who are wanting to maintain the hegemony of its class. no more, sir. no more.
A GWF apologist criticizing someone else as "wanting to maintain the hegemony of the class".... Trorlolorolofl. Who should be wary of who here, again?
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Comments
This is why I suggested At-Wills as my solutions, to address the current mechanics of dungeon runs. Neither buffing nor nerfing will be the solution for TRs. They need to contribute to the add fest in a more meaningful manner. Everyone else wants to change gameplay mechanics with so many suggestions for dungeons/PVE or PVP to find a balance, where any one such change need to address 6 classes instead of just the TR, that even if devs were willing, will take ages to flesh out. They cannot simply make the TR more essential without consideration for parties without a TR.
TR is a mixed bag with their encounters where damage can range from the damage of GF encounters which are relatively low, since they can benefit more from crit. This carries over to their AOE encounters which becomes lackluster in dungeons. They neglected an AOE at-will on the TR for consistency in dealing with adds with large hitpoints in dungeons unlike the other melee classes.
Why this IMHO is important is because the TR's DPS has an acceleration curve which comes mainly from Duelist's Flurry because there is no other better alternative. People think that TR no longer does good single target DPS relatively compared to the GWF. It's not, TR's single target DPS has simply been throttled since beta, and they can only excel with bosses with very large health pools. And with adds, there's just not enough time for the TR to do much before CWs and GWFs kill off the adds quickly with their comparatively more powerful encounters because of the acceleration curve and single target focus of TRs.
Let's see to patch things for rogues in this current environment for the most part they only need to raise target caps which shouldn't be much work. Here's my go at it:
**
Lashing blade from 1 to 3 target max
Dazing from 3 to 5 target max
Blitz from 5 to 10 target max
Whirlwind of blades from 5 to 15 max(power buff still capped at 5)
Wicked Reminder +20% damage +2 sec duration to debuff stacks
Shocking Execution does triple damage vs bosses **
Do you play / played 'high-end' PvE TR ?
(edit- i'm not trolling or bashful , i really asking what point of view your opinion comes from)
I wonder if we play the same game..
Lets start:
[th][/th]
[th]PvE[/th]
[th]PvP[/th]
Strategic goal for a team
Get to the end and kill the boss to get loot
Hold points
Tactical PoV for TR
get CA and focus big dude to maximize damage efficiency
'hit and run' points with invis, occupy as many of enemy team, or burst specific targets
Enemies Qty
from ****load to crapton
around 5 (less/more on openworld and a bit more for GG)
Enemy HP
15k-millions
20k-40k
Enemy Defence
negligible, crazy debuffed and capped at 24%
30% - 40% + Tenacity + other buffs
Behavior
Arrrgh bash, kill
yes, i already see how GF 'aggro' all the enemy team and let squishes burst them down without interference.
Behavior 2
Cannot dodge, even when they see that lashing coming
I think i saw few dodge, go invis, unstoppable, side-step, and god forbids even more complex things...
1. I can go on... but bottom line the setting is different and should be different. What makes the target both in the big picture and per encounter different.
2. The claim that PvE should change to be more like PvP is nice but evidently not realistic and also shortsighted, part of PvE is to fight big bad bosses and hordes of mobs... i dont want to fight 5 at a time no matter the class.
And as you stated, everything is relative to the target to be cleared. TR is not adequate for mob fights and now even boss fights not so much.
3. Lashing blade OP in PvE ? i wonder how a 40k damage is OP for in example fulmi/draco who have HP in the millions.Or perhaps we should tickle them to death ?! Also i wonder how it is OP relative to 100k AoE IBS bu thats another gripe.
4. Impact shot - why would i use it in PvE ? Or i should stand and one-shot cobolds with encounter killing 4 out of 20 ? Doesn't sound effective to me, i can one-two hit them with sly.
Perhaps it's good to dismount Mobs from mounts ? no, no dismounting.
Maybe bursting ? 4x8k =32k, lashing / DF / dazzing do more, so not good for bursting.
5. GWF can do the same single target DPS as TR without being 'glass'. Good CW can do more than 80% single target and staying ranged.
So what is TRs function in all of this ? guard the door ?
While i agree that many changes should be done, from dungeon mechanics to other classes to make TR desirable, PvP and PvE will never be the same, both because of the goal differences and because of todays limit of AI programming. As such realistic changes should be made / suggested.
Stating Is to vogue to be meaningful, imo. And the whole point if the thread was Starters will to state what he thinks those changes should be.
Bottom line, PvE and PvP hardly the same, different goals and different tactics to achieve that goal, different adversary to that goal.
IMO, the skills should have double effects one for PvE and another for PvP, when damaged calculated, everything that is NPC got 1 and Players will get the other. I think TR is a good example where is can be implemented as there is no complex skill interaction like chill,smolder but more straight forward DPS with single DF bleed DoT and one debuff.
Also i'm more inclined that TR damage should be buffed as single target class with perhaps small AoE instead of adding massive AoE. I dont want another copy of GWF/meele HR, there should be uniqueness in classes. but can't have a glass cannon without the cannon, while there is a massive modern Tank bashing and killing nearby.
side note - i'm not the best PvE TR out there, but i want to think after playing from Open Beta only TR, respecing about half dozen times to try new things, and even making a **** calculater to get maximum expected value of my DPS (with the constrains of what items i have or my not so smart skill roll a year ago) i did learned a thing or two about PvE TRs
Every single thing you have mentioned is irrelevant. Everything.
The boss mobs with millions of HP aren't even an issue. The only thing in PvE that matters is how fast you reach the end-zone with the given team composition, and with currently how the dungeons are set-up, in whatever scenario you can conjure up there is no room for TRs -- EVAH.
40k LB? Why not ask for 60k? 70k? 100k? Let's wait to land our mighty 100k LB against eight mobs, at least once each. Yipee, 8 x 20sec recharge = 2.6 minutes. In that span of time, a GWF+CW party has vacuumed up three mob groups and moving onto the forth. TRs aren't shunned from PvE content because they are weak. TRs are shunned because they don't fit the PvE meta based on AoE-efficiency.
You know what that means?
IT MEANS TRs WOULD HAVE BEEN EVENTUALLY SHUNNED IN THE EXACT SAME MANNER EVEN WITHOUT HAVING RECEIVED ANY NERFS AT ALL
It is a result of the changing meta that killed the place of classes like GFs, TRs or HRs in PvE.
The nerfs have actually got NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.
Oi, you poor, poor deluded people. When are you EVER going to realize this.
(ps) Here's a tip for ya. LB was never 'nerfed'. It just got bugfixed to acknowledge enemy defense/armor/etc. properly. Go look it up in the forum posts of the past.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I think i answered your claim point by point in precise and polite manner.
I dont see you are doing the same....
Nor was i speculative.
You calimed PvE and PvP are the same, I reffered to it, please state where am i wrong.
Just to make a point:
If a TR can kill all the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> on the way single target by single target while the GWF still swinging, he will not be shunned ( fact - that how it was around beta )
If a TR can Top pain giver he will not be shunned - doesn;t matter if its a good measurement or not - psychology 101.
But thats only an argument point and nothing else.
You are the one claime LB is OP, not i. Let me quote you: let me quote myself: So now it is useless ? please pick one..
And i specifically referred dungeon changes: Which you ignored and you have not suggested anything implementable, only 'something' should be done.
(at least not that i saw)
You claim everyone deluded, nice, but perhaps trying to read someones post before jumping to some invented conclusions is better ?
English is my third language, if i was not clear, i will clarify any point...
But it seems the tool is there, but the manpower (and brainpower) is not available in the amount necessary to do anything useful with tenacity in regards to PvE vs PvP performance. Pity. Yes, your TR's performance in dungeons is quite acceptable.
I must one of those crazy dudes that play a game for fun.
I am always happy to have micky1p00's TR in my DD group when the opportunity arises.
I might prefer to have less than 3 TR in the group, but basically I don't understand why you think the TR is useless. You do remember this is a game you play for recreation, right? at least for me it is not "how can I make 5 SP runs within the hour".
Of course an easy way out is to demand buffs and such if your personal performance is not to your liking, but having a good TR (a bit skilled and a bit equipped) in a group is good enough for me.
Yes, and i was thinking about much further,
In example smoke bomb doing DoT for PvE,
LB having Different target cap for PvE and so on..
PotB not so useless in PvE (everything dies before it even tickles something)
This dis-chaining can help balance both PvP and PvE simultaneously without cross effects (Tenacity can't do it) and perhaps less of this:
http://www.nerfnow.com/comic/1297
That's a farmer's mentality, and while true for yourself, is still a preference. There are also players who simply enjoy the process of dungeon runs. Also, you may not have ran with really well geared PVE TRs which can stay competitive with a CW or GWF up to 13-14k GS bracket, albeit disadvantaged with having to have higher GS/better equips than them. That said, TRs' DPS diminishes exponentially with how many high GS/well geared CWs or GWFs stacked in the party, and these are mostly farming parties popular in the LFG channel.
This is true, TR's DPS diminishes so rapidly when stacking CWs and GWFs, but again it's a farmer's mentality. Run a rainbow party with friends and guildies or just pug a queue, TRs can still contribute much.
I do not think everyone here is deluded, TR players simply desire their class to be more competitive without the need to overcompensate with GS and good gear. I have beaten 14-15k CWs and GWFs in rainbow parties where there was only 1 or 2 of them, TRs do have a place in dungeon parties, just not CWF stacked farms. They just need a little more consistency in the AOE department to be put into consideration and not be a turn off for PUGs.
I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is...
Lets remove those Rogue nerfs and see what happens?
That Meta has been here since the BEGINNING of the game rogues were never this unpopular before. While a lot of things have changed, those nerfs DID hurt the class... a great deal.
But hey... I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is... lets see how Rogues would fare with all the useless and irreleven Nerfs that crushed their damage in PvE...
Let go back and undo those mistakes...
Wanna bet me it changes a whole hell of a lot?
Now couple this with the fact that like 95% of those wanna be ninjas just suck at being TR. They don't grasp and utilize the class optimally let alone fit the current zerg meta. So you have as we have seen over time now, parties get these players in groups, see how ineffective they are, and refuse to bring them again. This process multiplies exponentially and you end up with an anti TR sentiment.
For the purpose of comparison, this is the same thing that happened to the HR as well. Over saturation combined with a poor showing will result in a death spiral for a class.
The problem is a lot of us top end PvE TR's are usually only grouping with guildies and so the vast majority of the player base doesn't get to see the benefits of a well played TR in a party to help fight this sentiment.
I am not saying the TR does not need a few powers tweaked, but with the fix to combat advantage and some smart playing a TR can do just fine at the moment at what it was intended to do. So consider this before recommending going off the deep end with buffs.
Gloom level 60 Control Wizard
Dusk level 60 Trickster Rogue
Dawn level 60 Devoted Cleric
Eclipse level 60 Hunter Ranger
Wrath level 60 Great Weapon Fighter
Jinx level 60 Scourge Warlock
I'd agree that was surprisingly large for TRs, the increase in combat advantage which technically affected everyone is huge for this class.
The biggest problem for TRs with regards to that is that they often turn the mobs on them fairly quickly and lose that combat advantage just as fast as they gained it.
I can see it when my Nightmare Wizardry procs and there's a geared rogue in the party as his damage jumps enormously. That said, that depends on a Wizard.... and then one who actually feats it which tends to be mostly Renegade Spec CWs. Then you guys can actually get a combat advantage when they turn on you too.
The massive jump in Combat Advantage damage multiplier has been a major step for rogues in getting back to that damage but there's still a long ways to go to UNDO that damage that has been caused up to this point with all these assorted nerfs.
The threat generation issue also plays into the domino effect as well. TR's can now do great damage when attacking from behind and so now you want someone who can keep baddies backs to the TR, thus the GF now becomes way more useful. Many people underestimate what combat advantage can really do.
Gloom level 60 Control Wizard
Dusk level 60 Trickster Rogue
Dawn level 60 Devoted Cleric
Eclipse level 60 Hunter Ranger
Wrath level 60 Great Weapon Fighter
Jinx level 60 Scourge Warlock
In that way its a MAJOR success,
That combination of the Tank/Rogue is a pair much like the CW/GWF team. Both play off each other very very well.
Its about time Cryptic started thinking in these terms... that is a long term fix for group viabillity.
Granted it affects all classes, and I notice it on my CW as well, but for once things are looking up for rogues. I know you guys get a lot of combat advantage related feats and encounters too.
If thevdevs did this and got rid of stacking debuffs from similar sources, it would go a long way towards promoting variety in groups.
Gloom level 60 Control Wizard
Dusk level 60 Trickster Rogue
Dawn level 60 Devoted Cleric
Eclipse level 60 Hunter Ranger
Wrath level 60 Great Weapon Fighter
Jinx level 60 Scourge Warlock
That's the only one... I'm not so sure is a good idea. While I definitely like the idea of synergies between the classes, the stacking debuffs are what allow the other classes to contribute.
The idea here is class synergy, and excluding those you could end up excluding other classes, which is counter productive to what you're trying to achieve.
Nowadays another melee class wiped them from Lfg channel.
TRs theoretically should have the biggest single target but aganst encounters which can easily crit 100k+ they have no chance.
Yes that would be Gwfs and their buffed IBS.
After deep gash was fixed there was a slight chance that the days of TRs would return somewhat but GWFs was quickly "recompensated" +40% unstoppable dmg,+30% IBS dmg and various buffs.
u know how many <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> cw are out there?
90% cw in pve are quite bad and dont use their potential.its the same with tr but the class is to bad.
Let me clarify. By similar I mean from the exact same source. Example you have two thaumaturge with the CoI debuff. Under my proposal you could only have one active on enemies at a time thus it would actually do very little good by stacking CW anymore. They would become redundant without variety.
Debuffs from different classes would still apply though as they are not that type and source as the CoI debuff however they too would not stack with each other(example an add could only be effected by one SotS no matter how many GWF or only one Disheartening Strike no matter how many TR and etc)
Each classes debuffs stack with the other classes just not with their own. This promotes variety and discouraged the current meta as it will become more efficient to gets buffs and damages from other sources.
Gloom level 60 Control Wizard
Dusk level 60 Trickster Rogue
Dawn level 60 Devoted Cleric
Eclipse level 60 Hunter Ranger
Wrath level 60 Great Weapon Fighter
Jinx level 60 Scourge Warlock
In Mod2 we quickly realized how unreliable are they for CN runs...
and I do not have any "remorse" that since nobody cared about the fact that gwf was kicked before the start dungeons. not be prioritized in lfg is a sub <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> drama.
which does not change the fact that the rogue needs to be competitive while also dps.
if it were not for the buff to gwf, the rogue still ignored. simple.
If I can make a suggestion, you are looking for a way to improve the rogue's abilities in dungeon without making him OP ?
Well, if the best way would be to re-create dungeon, with a more important number of different situation (already well discussed any-way), I think of a simple buff that will improve it's efficiency in dealing with big mobs while keeping him safe from any counterpart in PvP : increase duelist fury's max stack.
For example, let's extend it to 15 or 20 instead of 10. rogues will get monstrous 1vs1 damage when they stack it, but as it is nearly impossible to stack it on a player in pvp (and also, useless because they often dye or kill too fast), we can assume there will be a limited impact here.
It is just a suggestion, and buffing 1 power will not be enough, but maybe this can be a helpful buff, with limited negative effects...
Its not.
I loved playing with rogue in pve. It required much more finesse. Now I am bored with playing Gwf neanderthal style.
And I dont think I am alone!
If there were not these pumped gwf, the girls would love tr by her inner beauty ...
I think I missed something. we're talking about preference or efficiency? If you want the gwf go down for aesthetic differences (and not the rogue and the other classes are on a par with cw / gwf) well, it's a boring situation, no?
cw-40mill dmg
gf-23mill dmg
tr-12mill dmg
dc-6mill
this is most recent paingiver posted from full run cn,raibow party as it was intended
yeah tr doesn need no buff its all good lol
AoE and DoT damage tends to go far in score-padding -- the example being that I can usually rank on average 2nd, or at worst 3rd place in paingiver with a Whisperknife, since being a WK adds an automatic 20k damage within 5 seconds to every target crit with DHS. Stick in the knife to 3 enemies visible, and that's 60k damage added on top of other damage you do. This trend is actually the same for most other games as well, hence a class with good DoTs or AoEs will always rank as the highest in total amount of damage dealt.
(In retrospect, also the reason why MI based TRs that simply used to rely on spamming Shoxecution are now doing like <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. With Shox nerfed, they've removed the one trick from a one-trick pony. MIs have nothing for PvP now. No real AoEs...no real DoTs... no nuthin' -- as compared to WKs with very strong DoTs, as well as feats that boost the performance of the weak TR AoEs to at least mediocre levels.)
So frankly, no, I don't see anything wrong with the CWs. Ranged/caster classes will always deal damage more efficiently than melee - especially with the amount of AoEs they have usually (as in any game) -- provided that the melees do their job and hold aggro and protect the ranged/casters.
The only thing I see wrong from this picture is clearly how the GWF is simply overboard.
It's not difficult to guess how he amasses that much damage in comparison to others.
He's the toughest. He doesn't need to move around or dodge anything unless it is one of those one-hit-death mega-red circles. He's physically more resilient than its cousin which carries a big-<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> shield, since he has a one-button defense that's even better than a shield. While to protect himself the GF has to raise the shield and stop its attack, he doesn't need to. As a main tank healing/support is always primarily centered around him, as well as CC support from those very CWs. If a mob moves away, he can get back into range with a single push of a button and start swinging again. Every boss/middle-boss with a huge pool of HP will pad his damage count with every IBS used. "Based on percentage of health" damage mechanic will do that, just like Shoxecution used to -- except IBS is an encounter that repeats every 15secs or so. Imagine how much damage a TR would do with the old-version Shoxecution available every 15 seconds.
In short, GWFs have no "deal-loss" timing where any other melee class like the TR or GF goes through. He doesn't need to dodge or block. His back-to-back Unstoppable is all he needs in most cases. He gets the most support, access to most mobs at a given time, and swings around almost unfair amount of damage.
Remember when I said if something is OP in PvP, then it is OP in PvE as well? Perhaps now people understand. Just because mobs don't complain don't mean everything's OK in PvE. The GWF just performs too well. Just frickin' tone down and return the bullshi* IBS as it was before and I guarantee that'd chop off at least 10 million from that score.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
1 - see that hilarious. someone help me there: in much a cw can increase the damage of gwf? and as gwf can increase the damage of the cw? (bf dont work ... at least with dc)
Briefly: Part of this gwf damage IS CW DAMAGE (and dc let's be honest). but the converse is not true. this demonstrates the qualitative difference that still exists between the two classes (I'm not complaining.I even like this new dynamic.).
2 - the cw itself is proof that being "op" in pve not imply being "op" in pvp.
Always be wary of anyone who says "the problem is designating the dungeons." are people who are wanting to maintain the hegemony of its class. no more, sir. no more.
Well he is partially right.
The CW thrives in Mass Mob situations, that's what its designed to take on, ergo... any dungeon with a ton of mass mobs the CWs are going to have huge amounts of damage. His weakness... is single target damage. This is why hes not so good in PvP and never will be as a pure damager.
That's what CWs rely on GWFs for.
While the GWF contributes AoE damage through Front Line Surge and several other smaller AoEs getting there.... its nothing close to what the CW does in a crowd like that.... conversely, the GWF just slaughters the CW in single target damage.
When you combine the Cleric and CWs debuffs/buffs on the Boss Mobs they enable the GWF to shine like there's no tomorrow.
Its a synergy between the Three Classes that is perfect for these dungeons where you have a ton of mass mobs to get there, and then an uber tough... like million or more health Boss Mob...
The other secret is that the CW is not a very good controller... BUT... combine the CWs short 3 second stun and 1 second prones with the GWFs prones, stuns and slows, and togather they can take on huge amounts of mass mobs, each one covering the deficiencies of the other.
This is why this group functions so well togather. It not one class or the other, its the synergy of all three that do it... and a dungeon design that's perfect for that.
The GF if they could hold mass mob agro better or at least take it back once they lose it, could be a contributer if they survive as they could keep a single point of Mobs on them. The Rogue, if they had not been so viciously nerfed COULD be the single target damager on boss and Elite mobs as the CW can provide Nightmare Wizardry to boost their CA damage on top of everything.
The amount of crapshi* the class forces others to go through, its very existence is a trap to itself. Its what happens when you start sucking the most blatantly obvious OP class. Suck it up.
Honestly, I have no idea what you're saying. Request a bit of grammar.
So who says CWs are OP in PvE?
A GWF apologist criticizing someone else as "wanting to maintain the hegemony of the class".... Trorlolorolofl. Who should be wary of who here, again?
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'