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Couple suggestions to make Trickster Rogue viable in PVE again.
pandora1x
Member Posts: 725 Arc User
Make lashing blade have the same Area of Effect as Wicked Reminder (In PVE only, NOT, and I repeat, NOT in PVP)
Make Smoke Grenade actually do damage, some sort of poison, I mean the purple smoke looks like poison, so why not? (Again, PVE only)
Give us the "Old Trickster rogue" that used to actually do damage like back then. We all know we got hit with nerf bats because of PVP QQ's. Again, only in PVE. Leave it like it is in PVP. A rogue is supposed to be the hardest hitting class but also one of the squishiest. We have garbage damage AND damage resistance right now. Nobody likes TR's in PVE
This is all I've thought on top of my head... I'll think of more later.
Side note: Hunter Ranger ability "Ambush" should make the entire party stealthed (Again, in PVE too). It's not really an Ambush if only one is stealthed, right?
Make Smoke Grenade actually do damage, some sort of poison, I mean the purple smoke looks like poison, so why not? (Again, PVE only)
Give us the "Old Trickster rogue" that used to actually do damage like back then. We all know we got hit with nerf bats because of PVP QQ's. Again, only in PVE. Leave it like it is in PVP. A rogue is supposed to be the hardest hitting class but also one of the squishiest. We have garbage damage AND damage resistance right now. Nobody likes TR's in PVE
This is all I've thought on top of my head... I'll think of more later.
Side note: Hunter Ranger ability "Ambush" should make the entire party stealthed (Again, in PVE too). It's not really an Ambush if only one is stealthed, right?
Post edited by pandora1x on
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simple solution to all dps (if it is possible to program).
call the "David and Goliath mechanical" (whay that is a funny name).
taking the example of gwf: instead of you having an "executioner style" whose damage is based on the percentage of missing hp, take damage based on the potential volume of hp of the opponent.
example, a "ibs" (lb / Aimed / whatever) against enemies up to 40000 hp has its damage pattern (even less, not make a difference). But every "40000" hp the enemy has, the dps gains a bonus of 10% damage (have a limit, of course).
Briefly, enemies with 160000 hp receive +30% damage... all time.
thus the dps would do large volumes of damage against "real challenges".
Additional note:
this pattern could get from your hp. a multiplier based on the volume of your own hp.
something like: monsters / enemies with 2x or 2.5% of my hp start to receive this additional which will be increased as the difference in hp (to adjust the pre lvl60).
in pvp if someone could pound (10%) would be a glass cannon vs tank.
ps: the progression from the "prerequisite" could be 1%. then even if eventually I hit the quota of hp of the opponent (pvp), as the difference would not be great, I do not much increase my damage.
Branch Lead
In the end, what is OP for PvP is OP for PvE as well.
Its not TRs UP, but rather the "dungeon steamroller" classes are too OP.
People just don't realize it since the NPC mobs don't complain vocally like people do.
■ Need better dungeon design, such as super deadly, random traps which require the use of TRs.
■ Need stronger/smarter mobs that can't be just mass-CCd and AoEd to kingdom come.
■ Need certain mob traits/combinations which somehow the GWF+CW combination just becomes too inefficient, hence requiring the usage of classes like the GF or TR or HR
...in a nutshell, need better dungeons and mobs which can't be simply dispatched with just heals, deals, and meatshields.
Ofcourse, bringing balance to PvE in this manner spells disaster for most people gotten accustomed to cheese-runs with 2 cws, 2gwfs and a DC. More than likely the time-to-clear will increase. Smarter mobs will mean more deaths for cws and DCs, as well as the low aggro holding makes gwfs undesirable somewhat.
People who have long wanted a content requiring the diverse 'rainbow party' like in the style of real D&D adventures, people who have been longing for a reason to use TRs, HRs and GFs in PvE will love it, as well as the quality of gameplay will slowly rise.
But ofcourse, I won't lie. The cheese munching munchkin players will hate it. Those accustomed to just force-running through mob groups, aggro them all, mass-AoE CCs and splash damges all over in a jiffy.. these guys will throw a fit and throw in all sorts of tantrum and threats of quitting the game.
Balance is a zero-sum game. Those who thrived through imbalance is destined to lose once balance hits.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Or they will just roll another fotm class with a fotm spec, just like the TR's rolled CW's when they had some of their skills fixed. CW's have done it when they got "nerfed" from tenacity and rolled either HR or GWF.
---
But yeah you're right, these people will be the first ones crying (as always) when balance hits them.
Instead of buffing or nerfing, we could perhaps address the TRs issues of AOE dps in dungeons. Right now, TR's AOE comes mainly from a couple of dailies, few encounters that does pitiful AOE damage and Duelist's Flurry's small cylinfrical AOE.
However, nothing really needs to change or be rebalanced to make a TR viable in dungeon runs. A very simple solution for this melee class in PVE, is to have better AOE capabilities in 2 AT-Will powers.
Duelist's Flurry, aside from its cylindrical AOE, make it also do a 120 degrees frontal 10ft AOE at 30-50% damage of the cylinder. This AOE makes no difference in PVP because of the the 1 on 1 nature most of the time because even if the TR is fighting against multiple players, they are usually more than 20ft apart or on opposite sides of the TR and the TR needs to chase down a target to hit him in melee range. Since DF locks down the TR and only the cylinder locks onto a target, the 120 AOE is so avoidable in PVP, that it is a non-issue. Even if a TR is daring enough to take head on more than 1 melee players in PVP at the same time, the reduced damage AOE likely won't help the TR from dying before he can do much.
Sly Flourish, instead of hiting a single target, each slash hits in a cone AOE of 30-45 degrees. Again this makes no difference in PVP, but is significant enough in PVE to allow TRs to handle dungeon adds better. The AOE itself is such a small 10ft cone that it can still only hit multiple targets if they are practically in the same spot, meaning, each attack slashes any enemies only in the direction Sly Flourish is pointed at.
Just any 1 of these 2 minor changes will do wonders for TR in PVE but makes hardly any difference in PVP.
what are the chances they change the whole game so it becames better for tr.
they are 000000000% .but u know that very well
btw
these were realy good suggestions and few little buffs would give tr the edge they need
good job posting
dungeons are as they are other classes will not get nerfed for sake of the trs just give us a buff
lol not even close.
most aoe encounters op in pve are <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> in pvp
no one hates trs with such passion as you gj
Agreed, everyone complaining about perma stealth in PvP but what good is a Perma TR in PVE by pass encounter to get to camp fire to save time because you know that Boss fight is gonna take hours.
there is no way to make them viable.
cuz 3 minutes less in preclear will be always better than 30 less boss fight.
so play trs in pvp and stop
TR can be viable again in PVE with not too many changes. But it's a mix between buffing the damage a bit and also changing how dungeons work (wich I don't think will happen)
as long as dungeons consist of hundreds or trash mobs, the classes mean to deal with them like CW and GWF will continue to be the only ones needed.
If dungeons had more elite mobs with huge hp pools inmune to cc, then TR's and other classes would be much more needed.
And you know....gwfs have the better single target right now.
I have a rank 9 tr and a rank 9 hr. I know what i m talking about. You may dont care but the other 4 people with you probably do.
If they would just consider my suggestions on the previous page, TR's would be competitive in dungeons without breaking any current balance in pvp.
Poor soul didnt have time to log out.
Yeah but it doesn't change the reality of what happened.
You weren't around for the over-nerfing of the TR early in the name of "balance".
Those things need to be undone. They were an obvious mistake at this point that have now caused all kinds of problems that did not exist prior.
While I agree with the things you said concerning how Dungeons work... the reality is, the TR's Damage has been over-nerfed. It is quite literally what resulted in the current Perma Stealths you see that are so wide spread and multiple other problems for rogues in PvE.
It's time for that to change.
Balance is wholesale. Balance problems derive from both indivual classes as well as structural problems, and in the end the so-called 'weak in PvE' aspect of TRs rise from the latter.
Just increasing the PvE damage of TRs don't mean squat since people will still prefer that the game's most bullshi* OP class to draw out aggro from every mob group visible and just duke it out with a press of a TAB button, all the while the game's AoE specialists just juice up big red circles on the ground to vacuum up what's left of them.
If we ant PvE to be more rich and diverse, we need:
■ some way to make the GF that carries a big-<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> shield more preferable over the GWF as a main tank
■ some way to make it impossible and undersirable for the GWF to just run and aggro everything he sees
■ some way to make it impossible to just dish out AoE CCs and be done with it
■ some way to make the mob groups more resilient to AoE damage
■ some way to make it more desirable to use long-range pure DPS builds from HRs
■ some way to make it more desirable to use TRs as both DPS and utility
These requirements cannot be addressed with simple changes in damage mechanics.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
There is no 'over-nerfing'. Every nerf the TR received was in good reason.
And as I've already stated, if something hits too hard against players much better equipped, trained, and combat-worthy than any AI controlled mob, then it hits too hard for PvE as well. Conversely, if some class can laugh off attacks from players easily, then that means those same classes are just too tough for mobs from PvE content. Mobs don't complain, but that doesn't mean the amount of damage some classes can dish out is adequate for the game's PvE standards.
In simple words, the game's too easy and casual. It doesn't require a role diversification to be successful in dungeons. Hence, the only two roles people ever consider are the AoE CC/DPS, and the "behind the wheels" meat shield, with the single DC being nothing more than a heal slave that tags along.
Nothing needs to be undone. What we really need is a change in formation of the dungeon/lair content. Both the difficulty, and diversity of the given situation needs to be changed. I've said this and will say it again -- TRs are not UP. It's the game's too easy, as well as some classes are too OP for PvE that's the problem.
You don't call that a change. You call it going retro.
Things have changed. They will not allow 35k Lashing Blades or 15k Deft Strikes ever again, and for a good reason. Then, at this point, it is time we ask ourselves if it is really us TRs that are the problem, or if there is something else.
I say something else.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
That is enough nerfing,
.....that's what put us in this shoes in the first place so its time to reverse course...
No one ever used to complain or worry about taking a rogue before. No one ever complained about rogue damage or rogues failing to get groups back then. No one ever even bothered with Perma stealth...
So step one..... is restoring the Rogue back to their original form... then see how things work...
Bet it changes a good deal of things right off the bat... then you can start to look deeper if the problems remain.
THAT IS ENOUGH of that...
I am **** tired of the PvP crew hosing up the PvE game because they can't understand the two are different and work differently.
I don't give a rats rear end about PvP, every nerf has only screwed up the PvE game.
I don't want to hear it anymore... Yeah keep trying to Justify all these Nerfs to the Rogue...
Obviously they have done NOTHING but cause problems. And NOW everyone wants to complain about "perma stealth".. AND nerf that too...
Well no Fn wonder you put yourself in shoes of your own making.
Enough nerfing... its a failure... a consistent... repeated.... failure that's only making things worse...
Its time to go back and reverse those short sighted, useless, things that caused much of this and never solved a dmn thing in the end.
this is just an unnecessary complication. currently the enemies that hit hard are the beating closely. then one melee (rogue / gf / gwf) are not only exposed to "100% of attacks" and also to those who are dangerous indeed.
this is a game originally "cw / dc centrist". and remains in parties "not elitist"
If you change this order in the hierarchy of damage, not just the gf would become "necessary" (the gwf is not good with aggro) as the rogue would receive a survival ... which would mean that the class could focus more on doing damage.
but this is a one side of the story: the "designe" argument was also used to justify the inefficiency gwf (beta/module1) .
if the rogue is put into "cw standard ", soon we will also justifying the rogue is strong because the designe of dungeons.
it is understood as "cw standard " a buff from 40% to start to talking.
GWFs were buffed because of PVE not PVP.
I thought you were here from the start Quicksilver?
Fox Stevenson - Sandblast
Oh Wonder - Without You
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
- Dylan Thomas
(GRRR... Zero size object is getting annoying... )
No the PvP nerfholics are the new ones that don't understand this stuff.
They for some reason think Mobs are the same as players, but players have only 25k health the mobs can have over a million.
Yes I know about the rogue tanking issue... but the damage part was a highly questionable nerf EVEN in the beginning...
....when you consider the actual mob health compared to players.
Which part of "if its OP for PvP, then its OP for PvE" do you not understand?
The 'difference' between PvP and PvE is superficial. The only thing that really matters is where the performance of a given class/character is adequate in relation to the 'target' that needs to be cleared. 35~40k Lashing Blades is just blatantly OP in PvE as it is in PvP. A ranged encounter like Impact Shot that fires off 4 times before going into a bit of a recharge and hits for 8~9k each, is OP.
Divide the amount of damage dealt with the numbers of mobs received and let's see if the CW really "outdamages" the TR. The GWF may have better single target damage as well as better AoE damage, but aside from that single class TR comes in close 2nd. Pain Giver/Executioner stats are the most frickin' stupid and misleading, useless set of numbers in any PvE content which doesn't represent even 1/4th of what your character has done during the game -- it is a stupid "frame", a "language" in which the most idiot of PvE cheese munchers have set up and you're speaking it.
Go look in a mirror, dude.
You've got zero grasp on the structural problems revolving around PvE, even less than this old PvPer, and just blaming everything on "nerfs"... and who's calling who "shortsighted"? ROFL :rolleyes:
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Irrelevant to the max. How much HP a mob is given is of no relation to this matter whatsoever.
As a matter of fact, with the gearflation over the past many months without new content, mob HP is ridiculously low in proportion to the amount of damage the players -- even the 'nerfed' TR -- can put up.
Why the royal fek should any CW+GWF+DC party ever putup with a TR no matter how much it reverts back to the olden days, when they still can easily clear 5... 6... 7... 10 mobs at a time with more than twice, thrice as much efficiency than with a TR in the team?
What are you going to ask then? To buff TR damage to the stars so it one-shots Elite-grade mobs??
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Which PART of PvE and PvP are Different do YOU not understand...
The Mobs can have over a MILLION health... In PvP players have only a basic 25k health, can get a lot more with a lot more gear...
Yeah there's a BIG difference between the targets the rogue will be on in PvP (Single Target) vs... targets in *shock* PvE....
Whoa what a concept... that kind of damage is RIGHT ON PAR for PvE for the types of mobs the Rogue is DESIGNED to take on... as a SINGLE TARGET STRIKER.... Ergo... why the hell are you hosing up the PvE game with PvP <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>?
Yeah they're different... 35-40k Lashing Blades... seems like TON... right until you get to the point where you realize the MOBS the ROGUE is DESIGNED to take on... namely single target... HAVE OVER A MILLION OR MORE HEALTH (a lot more these days in upper tiers).
Yeah on a PLAYER it sure is massive... but on a PvE mob no its just a drop in the bucket.
It never occurred to you PLAYERs (aka PvP) and MOBS (aka PvE) are completely different in the damage you need to do to them in relation to each other.
NO its a DROP IN THE BUCKET on a MOB that's got MILLIONS of HEALTH.
NO YOU... go look in the mirror and start using that brain of yours...
PvP and PvE are completely Different. You nerf something to be on Par for PvP and judge by PvP you hose up the single target striker classes in PvE you have been doing this over and over and over...
Then wonder WHY no one wants these classes in PvE anymore.
I do not understand why this is such a difficult concept for you to grasp...
You are NOT dealing with 25-50k health on a PLAYER for single target damage.... you are dealing with Boss Mobs and Elites with MILLIONS of health...
You nerf something for PvP and suddenly it becomes useless or just a pin prick in PvE.
Enough Nerfs that keep hosing the PvE game.