First off sir, Mouz is runnign an 8k GS GWF atm, and landed a 20k Takedown, so it dying laughably fast will never happen, because 1v1, you'll die first!
Second off, you don't need any Recovery, or any INT to run a perm build rotation, So thats false and bilethorn is actually an anti-stealth mechanism so what you said about it is a bit contradictory
Thirdly, there will always be BiS gear so making patches to fix whats not broken is a waste of time.
Forth, I added my disclaimer for a reason, and no one in the PvP community cares about people with no gear
Agreed. And more importantly people with low to no gear are generally the kind that pug only, and dont do min maxxing research, and are just fine with that. Patches really shouldn't revolve around them. In all MMO's it revolves around "end game" or the "top end". The argument that gear should be toned down isnt completely incorrect; make this a fighting game like street fighter with no gear and the pvp would be perfectly balances. But it is an mmo, and balancing is an every working machine, difficult to use and easy to break. Those comments are... not even applicable IMO kolevra.
-Disclaimer- All Class Balancing suggestions and situations are based on top end BiS Gear and Potential of the Class
Trickster Rogue: they should remove Shadow Strike and replace it with something else (like a new CC ability). Also buff their combat encounters and slightly increase their stealth bar regen. This will get rid of the perma stealth builds but keep them competitive.
Devoted Cleric: I disagree with your view. The DC is doing just fine with healing and damage mitigation. The problem the class faces is it doesn't do enough DPS and their combat encounters are comical. We do NOT need a return of the unkillable clerics. No, no, no.
Guardian Fighter: need bump to DPS but prone chaining needs to be addressed too. There should be something like a 2 second immunity from being proned again (still take the damage).
Control Wizard: agreed on armor pen for their abilities and nerfing some of their AoE encounters. Currently on my CW I can stack Power like crazy and do obscene amounts of damage. In PvP I hit like a ton of bricks too. If I were forced to rebalance to take Armor Pen in to account I couldn't do that (as much).
As mentioned in another thread, "the REAL problem with GWF is: Iron Vanguard."
At best, IV was given to gwf for practical reasons by devs who were late and had no proper paragon ready. Remember, it's the same devs who implemented the HR in Dread Ring (instead of Sharandar), the Warlock in 2015 (instead of Dread ring), the Druid in 2099 (instead of IWD).
ToD = ..........
Tired of Dailies/Tyranny of Dailies/Timers of Doom/Tricked Or Duped/Tremendously Obnoxious Dailies/Try Otherwise, Devs
True, heavily geared players manage bigger numbers than that
you missed the message completely. It is an at will but...with a 2.5 secs charge that can be interrupted by a fly <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> (aka DoT of even 1 dmg). It's very similar to Stag in every aspect (minus the interrupt, i think) So it's really a one-of-a-kind "at will" <-lol
if your not hitting a minimum of 15k you sir have a terrible spec and no gear or you dont know how to build a GWF, because my 13k GWF easily hits those marks
Destroyer focus is exponential at the moment 2^(numer of stacks)
The capstone feat adds 40% damage
it's pretty simple, and no I'm not Q.Qing because I personally die to gwf, I mostly don't unless its 1v2 in which case gwf is an impossilble class to overcome. I'm Q.Qing because half my pvp team (CW and DC) have borderline quit the game because their class is useless
But I mean, if you really think I'm bad, we can always schedule a 1v1?
Trickster Rogue: they should remove Shadow Strike and replace it with something else (like a new CC ability). Also buff their combat encounters and slightly increase their stealth bar regen. This will get rid of the perma stealth builds but keep them competitive.
Devoted Cleric: I disagree with your view. The DC is doing just fine with healing and damage mitigation. The problem the class faces is it doesn't do enough DPS and their combat encounters are comical. We do NOT need a return of the unkillable clerics. No, no, no.
Guardian Fighter: need bump to DPS but prone chaining needs to be addressed too. There should be something like a 2 second immunity from being proned again (still take the damage).
Control Wizard: agreed on armor pen for their abilities and nerfing some of their AoE encounters. Currently on my CW I can stack Power like crazy and do obscene amounts of damage. In PvP I hit like a ton of bricks too. If I were forced to rebalance to take Armor Pen in to account I couldn't do that.
I don't know what land of fairness you live in, but on a top end pvp level dc's get killed by everything 1v1, besides a GF, how is this fair!? DC SHOULD BE ABLE TO 1v1 AND NOT DIE IF THEY'RE GOOD
-Disclaimer- All Class Balancing suggestions and situations are based on top end BiS Gear and Potential of the Class
From the Eyes of a dedicated Pvpier who plays 10 hours a day on average I can safely say that class balance is the worst now then it has been since the initial release of Teneborus.
And unfortunately, it also seems like the released "ELO system" is non-existent or horribly broken
But lets start with the basic's.
First and foremost
Great Weapon Fighter (A.k.a The Class of Second Chances" Lets start off by saying that damage for a 2 handed fighter makes total sense.. But 40% more damage from a capstone? and a bugged Destroyer feat that adds an additional 50% tooltip damage? But that's not the best part yet.
Situation proposal: "Oh so you missed your 10-15K take-down hit, No worries, we'll give it back to you in 3 seconds. OH you also missed your Roar?! No worries 6 seconds and we'll give you back your CC that leaves your victim CC'D long enough to wait 6 seconds for your take-down to be back up! OH I also see your about to miss your 20K+ Damage Indomitable Battle Strike!? NO WORRIES AT ALL! you can just animation cancel it and try again later! By the way friend, you also don't have to worry about stacking offensive stats now. Just stack all defensive and we'll take care of the rest. After all, we're all about second chances here at GWF United!
Roar Glitch Needs to be fixed already
You took away Shocking Execution and put it on IBS
They get all their capstone stacks from Armor and Weapon enchants
I'm still surprised there hasn't been any complaints about take-down having a seemingly infinite range once its casted. the reason for this is because the game registers that it hit you during the beginning of the animation, but the prone dosen't actually come to the very end. therefore if I'm repelled per say, out of the GWF's range, takedown will still hit me when his animation ends.
Maybe a bit dramatic. But that's the state of GWF in a nutshell. It's damage needs to be scaled back by 20% Easy, and its cool-down time with the current damage is a COMPLETE joke, while also having unlimited range closer potential and now a CC break thats up 20% more, as compared to last patch. Seriously? I thought Great Weapon Fighter wasn't OP enough already
Hunter Ranger: At least this class's OP potential is not intended unlike the GWF, and I'll look the other way in regards to negligence because the class is still very young, but someone needs to blow the horn. Natures Blessing is ridiculously OP, even with GWF the way it is now, with both classes at max potential it is IMPOSSIBLE for an HR to die 1v1. Why?
Natures Blessing Adds an additional 20% less healing depression on max stats
Forest Meditation is basically a guaranteed full heal and HR's have the games fastest AP gain
With proper rotation Skill, in a 1v1 an HR can keep his opponent permanently CC'd between Constricting and Dazing shot (which is fair, but not when you have everything else that I listed)
40,000 HP+ and its beyond easy to stack 2k regen
Lone wolf? are you serious, the supposedly "range class" has more base DR in a 1v1 situation then a TR and sometimes even more then the plated GWF and GF
Take a look at an unamed HR on page 1 of the scoreboard K/d 39+ per 1 kill, and only HR's have anything close to that
I currently carry one of the best K/d's in the game on my TR at a 17+ and I have to struggle to keep that (But thats mostly because 50% of my deaths are GWF related, and 90% of whats not GWF related are glitch related)
It's damage is actually pretty balanced if it were possible to kill them, so no complaints there.
Trickster Rogue: Pretty much the martyr of misunderstood Classes, but yes it's rotation is pretty hard to beat for new players. But I can guarantee you, having played rogue since beta, killing even the "Perm stealth's" is a breeze when using the two prior classes.
Path of Blades is ridiculous. It's skilless, and should've never have been replaced by nerfing Impact shot
Impact Shot: I'm still dumbfounded that a TRIPLE Dipping nerf went through, like what? Tenacity nerfing its damage, Then 33% damage nerf, then your seriously going to take 33% damage for every charge I don't have left? Congratulations, my Cloud of steel hits harder now, and you made the class even MORE skilless
Since beta and this is my third time mentioning it
ITC and Shadow Strike glitch NEED TO BE FIXED ALREADY
Example: Great Weapon Fighter uses take-down on me the same time I use ITC, instead of ITC just not going off, it cycles through a cool down, I take the prone, and the ITC affect never goes off
Shadow Strike will do the same thing if you lose target of the person after casting
Shocking Execution Gets 2 kills off of someone with Soulforge, this needs to be amended
Control Wizard: Honestly, Not much to say about this class, at max potential it's a monster in a group fight, and is working pretty well. but with HR and GWF being way over the top CW is extremely Hindered
and seriously, Please fix shard disappearing bug already, every form of CC besides Prone's and Daring's remove the boulder. on top of the fact that any entity on the floor such as thorn ward and Hallowed ground will bug the boulders prone attribute.
And they need to fix it's armor pen already then once armor does infact work, scale back its damage by a small amount
Guardian Fighter: Seriously, so much wasted potential with the way this class is now
Giving GWF the GF paragon path was the biggest mistake in this game.
GF needs a complete rework of the shield, my suggestion is a stamina bar like the TR where it drains moderately fast, but recovers at a decent pace to make using the shield more skillful instead of just extra HP
It's still no where near as tanky as a GWF, and the GF has a shield
20% More damage minimum
Devoted Cleric: Seriously, the stuff that has been done to this class has nearly made me quit the game
A cleric can't 1v1 any class on max potential now, which is beyond stupidity.
Without a doubt, clerics should be able to survive against anything 1v1 if they're good. and the only way to do that would be allowing them to heal themselves for more then whats currently possible, and the nerfing of Sunburst's pushback with tenacity made them useless in a 1v1 (even if they can live) because now they can't help their team get points
Now my understanding of each class isn't perfection, so I hope experienced players will further help my case
ELO System
Alright, now I'm truly convinced it either doesn't exist, or it's not even working
Whenever I que solo, I'm stuck either carrying my pugs completely, while demolishing the other team
or I'm stuck demolishing the other team with my pugs destroying them to
I have not yet, had 1 single game where I queued solo and the teams were even
Don't get me wrong, I've had close games, but that's more on account of peoples lack of understanding that they have to stand on the point to win..
If anyone has intelligent and constructive information about any class listed that they can prove with #'s, then PM me over Forum or In-game and I will add it to the class breakdown.
50% tooltip damage? Destroyer stacks last for 1.9 - 2.0 seconds, that statement is not valid. Useless ability that has no COnsistency, and will never do that much dmg, Also no valid proof of 50% tooltip dmg.
All of your numbers are completely exaggerated, 10-15k takedown ? in whos dreams? screen shot agains a equally geared players please. 17k+.
20k IBS? against an eqaully geared player? Not even in ur dreams.
Takedown range is active at time of activation. It has nothing to do with range, Dodge earlier.
I don't know what land of fairness you live in, but on a top end pvp level dc's get killed by everything 1v1, besides a GF, how is this fair!? DC SHOULD BE ABLE TO 1v1 AND NOT DIE IF THEY'RE GOOD
My solution was to give them more DPS to win a 1v1. Your solution is for them to heal themselves forever and....what? It isn't like that opponent went away because you showed off your awesome healing capability. To win a 1v1 you have to beat the other person by killing them.
50% tooltip damage? Destroyer stacks last for 1.9 - 2.0 seconds, that statement is not valid. Useless ability that has no COnsistency, and will never do that much dmg, Also no valid proof of 50% tooltip dmg.
All of your numbers are completely exaggerated, 10-15k takedown ? in whos dreams? screen shot agains a equally geared players please. 17k+.
20k IBS? against an eqaully geared player? Not even in ur dreams.
Takedown range is active at time of activation. It has nothing to do with range, Dodge earlier.
10-15k IBSs do happen, and with unsettling regularity.
See a previous poster: [10:10] [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Vlad deals 33316 (40245) Physical Damage to you with Indomitable Battle Strike.
This was done to one of the tankiest DCs in the game. I've seen it done to my BiS DC with 37k HP and over 40% DR several times as well.
My solution was to give them more DPS to win a 1v1. Your solution is for them to heal themselves forever and....what? It isn't like that opponent went away because you showed off your awesome healing capability. To win a 1v1 you have to beat the other person by killing them.
I didn't roll a DC to DPS. If I wanted to DPS, I'd pick another class. If you give a DC enough DPS to win a 1v1 against a decent (or half decent) player, DCs will be seriously unbalanced. Because the DC can't kill another person on a node (and shouldn't be able to if the opponent knows how to play), the least they should be able to do is stalemate it with the right gear and experience.
I don't think the DC should have the ability to clear a point alone. They should at least be able to hold it in a 1v1.
I didn't roll a DC to DPS. If I wanted to DPS, I'd pick another class.
You are simply used to DCs with no dmg. That everybody make tanky clerics is not because they are so amazing tanks (frankly, they are not), it's because their DPS is even worse than GFs, therefore, no other option.
Pretty similar to the situation TRs are currently in: many of them would prefer be a hard hitting killing machines if that would be a viable now.
That's how it is, but it is not how it suppose to be, and I agree with spongebob here that clerics should have more dps.
Trickster Rogue: they should remove Shadow Strike and replace it with something else (like a new CC ability). Also buff their combat encounters and slightly increase their stealth bar regen. This will get rid of the perma stealth builds but keep them competitive.
Devoted Cleric: I disagree with your view. The DC is doing just fine with healing and damage mitigation. The problem the class faces is it doesn't do enough DPS and their combat encounters are comical. We do NOT need a return of the unkillable clerics. No, no, no.
Guardian Fighter: need bump to DPS but prone chaining needs to be addressed too. There should be something like a 2 second immunity from being proned again (still take the damage).
Control Wizard: agreed on armor pen for their abilities and nerfing some of their AoE encounters. Currently on my CW I can stack Power like crazy and do obscene amounts of damage. In PvP I hit like a ton of bricks too. If I were forced to rebalance to take Armor Pen in to account I couldn't do that (as much).
Interesting Ideas!
TR: I like this, a CC ability or heck, even a "dodge" type buff like HRs get could go will in rotations with ITC. Id like to see TRs deal more damage and not be forced to hide in the shadows.
GF: ALL you need here is to put ARP on Con and Crit on Dex (Like GWFs have) and then removed the punt effect on bull rush so its just a knockdown - like boar rush. Then IMO id like to see guard on a stamina meter so it cant be blown up in 2 seconds...
Can't post anything to do with PvP without it turning into a nerf GWF thread. Everyone has to calm down with this stuff already and take a step back. Roar is the main problem for Destro OP, it essentially guarantees a full rotation. It is indeed getting fixed.
Allowing players to queue with 5 GWF is a bigger problem than the class itself. Fix this first.
GPF is (I believe) unintentionally working as a superstacker. Fix this next.
Fixing these two problems (along with the official Roar fix) will reveal that the current Destroyer is actually no where near as much of a problem in Domination as a Sentinel pre-healing depression, Mod 2, Deep Gash/SotS, Vorpal GWF.
CALM DOWN :cool:
--- Ranked matches need to be solo-queue only
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
0
silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
You are simply used to DCs with no dmg. That everybody make tanky clerics is not because they are so amazing tanks (frankly, they are not), it's because their DPS is even worse than GFs, therefore, no other option.
Pretty similar to the situation TRs are currently in: many of them would prefer be a hard hitting killing machines if that would be a viable now.
That's how it is, but it is not how it suppose to be, and I agree with spongebob here that clerics should have more dps.
Clerics dps "could" be ok if arpen wasnt broken on ticks, a combo of break the spirit, ff and bots/w plaguefire, should be a fairly good rotation... but since arpen doesnt work with it , it sucks basicaly.
Even with all that, the finisher for clerics "daunting light" or dl is so amazingly slow, you dont even have to dodge out of its way, you can basically walk before the effect hits. Sad.
In terms of being tanky, they haven't been truly amazingly tanky since pre pvp tenacity patch, at that point, any cleric with MH armour and ashield could stand and take all sorts of damage, add in 3k defense, some deflect and some regen..viola, sitting pretty, didnt even have to be AC, a DO cleric was still kinda of tanky and a AC one was even better.
with the double (undeserved) double whammy of healing depression and righteousness , along with the scaling upwards of dps output, and the constant proning, cc without any immunity, the cleric isnt in a great spot .. they can however directly influence outcomes of matches, with the right team set up and protection.
For day to day pugging, with random and wierd group compositions, not always pretty to play with.
Im not here asking for nerfs to anyone or any one class per se, I just wanted to point out, as far as healers go, this is the weakest version of a healer Ive played in any mmo pvp.. It has all sorts of ways to compete, but the nerfs/bugs prevent it from being effective. (still blows my mind that they had to nerf hallowed ground healing in that last patch.. just what is exactly thier issue against dcs, is beyond me)
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lucidproph3cyMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Not surprisingly, most of the problems you mention are non-existent or at least only exist in a fairly structured trade-off manner outside of the BiS Gear environment. "Max Potential" of a class in this game translates to "As Broken As Possible".
A destroyer GWF without enchantments, artifacts, or boons dies laughably fast in turn for being able to kill things quickly. HRs in the same situation can't become super-tanky or regenerate like Wolverine. TRs without OP bile-thorn and lightning recovery can't run silly perma builds.
Gear inflation is the reason for the majority of class imbalances, most of which wouldn't exist if enchantment slots and artifacts disappeared over night. As it stands, HR/GWF/TR are just better at taking advantage of brokenly overpowered stats and thus the classes that cannot "explode" from over-gearing (CW/DC/GF) lag behind in terms of balance. But then again, the possibility of being broken is what keeps people swiping their credit card, which is why this game has had this window of opportunity in one form or another since the beginning of it.
I'm fairly confident that if PvP forced people to tone down their stats instead of over-infalting them, not only would we see a drastic increase in class balance, but we would also see a drastic increase in the variety of viable PvP builds within each class. Until then, Rank 10s , triple legendaries, and maxed boons will continue to break balance as they are intended to.
If they balance the game around BiS Gear this problem only gets worse.
Alright, now I'm truly convinced it either doesn't exist, or it's not even working
Whenever I que solo, I'm stuck either carrying my pugs completely, while demolishing the other team
or I'm stuck demolishing the other team with my pugs destroying them to
I have not yet, had 1 single game where I queued solo and the teams were even
Don't get me wrong, I've had close games, but that's more on account of peoples lack of understanding that they have to stand on the point to win..
Yup, this.
Also, since it's apparently not working, they should REMOVE the leaver penalty. Getting stomped without being able to get to 500 is such a frustrating WASTE OF TIME.
10-15k IBSs do happen, and with unsettling regularity.
See a previous poster: [10:10] [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Vlad deals 33316 (40245) Physical Damage to you with Indomitable Battle Strike.
This was done to one of the tankiest DCs in the game. I've seen it done to my BiS DC with 37k HP and over 40% DR several times as well.
At least it's getting fixed.
Getting fixed huh? Apparently the damage difference after the nerfs will be about 5%. So if by fixed you mean that a GWF can hit a tanky DC for 31k instead of 33k, then yeah, it's getting fixed.
Quote Originally Posted by dersidius View Post
ELO System
Alright, now I'm truly convinced it either doesn't exist, or it's not even working
Whenever I que solo, I'm stuck either carrying my pugs completely, while demolishing the other team
or I'm stuck demolishing the other team with my pugs destroying them to
I have not yet, had 1 single game where I queued solo and the teams were even
Don't get me wrong, I've had close games, but that's more on account of peoples lack of understanding that they have to stand on the point to win..
Well, since no matter what, you are demolishing the other team, one must simply assume you are a God, whose skills are unfathomable by any rating system. In fact, you might be just so good that having to try to calculate your awesomeness may have broken the rating system singlehandedly, and may also be responsible for the lag some are experiencing.
Getting fixed huh? Apparently the damage difference after the nerfs will be about 5%. So if by fixed you mean that a GWF can hit a tanky DC for 31k instead of 33k, then yeah, it's getting fixed.
I'm starting to think that there's some kind of hidden balancing tool that the devs are using. For whatever reason, DC get smashed by IBS WAY harder than any other class at equal gear. It's really unexplainable...
However, IBS hits for numbers that you should expect against other classes. The whole 30k vs tanky DC thing has really been blowing these forums up and now people want to nerf IBS even though it works fine in every other circumstance.
--- Ranked matches need to be solo-queue only
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
I'm starting to think that there's some kind of hidden balancing tool that the devs are using. For whatever reason, DC get smashed by IBS WAY harder than any other class at equal gear. It's really unexplainable...
However, IBS hits for numbers that you should expect against other classes. The whole 30k vs tanky DC thing has really been blowing these forums up and now people want to nerf IBS even though it works fine in every other circumstance.
It regularly takes half my health at 30k. Is that really "fine"? I don't think so.
Anyway, "Maybe" it would be ok if that was the main source of damage. But everything hits harder now.
When every move takes 1/4 the health of someone, and a couple take 1/2, it's a little freaking nuts.
It regularly takes half my health at 30k. Is that really "fine"? I don't think so.
Anyway, "Maybe" it would be ok if that was the main source of damage. But everything hits harder now.
When every move takes 1/4 the health of someone, and a couple take 1/2, it's a little freaking nuts.
I regularly hit HRs for less than 2k with IBS. Is that really fine? I don't think so.
Everything is circumstantial though, so providing obscure numbers about 'this one time in pvp' I really try not to get into because theres always things that are left out. Yes, IBS hits hard. Its supposed to. It has to. Even as hard as its hitting now its not even close to being overpowered. What is overpowered (broken actually) is Roar which allows GWF to sort of override the dodge mechanic, which most classes must utilize to prevent the IBS. Once that is fixed, IBS becomes much harder to consistently land thus reinforcing the need for it to hit reasonably hard when it does land. And yes, I do think that the way it hits now against equally geared opponents is reasonable. (except perhaps the DC, for whatever unexplained or unimaginable reason)
The problem with GWF is not IBS. If anything, Takedown needs a damage reduction.
--- Ranked matches need to be solo-queue only
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
TR: I like this, a CC ability or heck, even a "dodge" type buff like HRs get could go will in rotations with ITC. Id like to see TRs deal more damage and not be forced to hide in the shadows.
GF: ALL you need here is to put ARP on Con and Crit on Dex (Like GWFs have) and then removed the punt effect on bull rush so its just a knockdown - like boar rush. Then IMO id like to see guard on a stamina meter so it cant be blown up in 2 seconds...
For starters, the following would probably make for interesting results in terms of "TR combat that doesn't prompt you to enter stealth and stay there 99% of the time":
Dodge-like immunity granted to the following powers:
■ Deft Strike: Upon activation, throughout "disappear" phase of the power. Vulnerable when pops out back again
■ Blitz: Upon activation, throughout "shift backwards" phase of the power. Vulnerable when fires off daggers
■ Vengeance's Pursuit: Upon VP(teleport) activation and throughout the entire power activation
■ Bait 'n Switch: Upon activation, throughout the entire power activation
The combat would be played out like:
■ encounter a GWF, GWF sprints toward you
■ 1st anticipated move, FSL or TD: Time Deft Strike to counter prone and appear behind GWF
■ 2nd anticipated move, TD or FSL: Throw Blitz daggers to counter 2nd prone and shift back to buy some distance
■ 3rd anticipated move, IBS: dodge backwards from Blitz-shift position to buy more distance to get away from IBS
■ enter stealth, land Lashing Blades from stealth
■ at-will fight for a few seconds, TD back in recharge, anticipate timing
■ GWF goes into Unstoppable, and tries TD, dodge away and run to buy some time
■ Deft Strike back in recharge, use it to counter next attack
..and etc etc..
Basically powers with noteable combat utility that helps you fight and survive without stealth or ITC. Unlike stealth or ITC, it is not passive -- it needs correct timing and anticipation. Take the fight "tricky" befitting that of a "Trickster" Rogue.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I regularly hit HRs for less than 2k with IBS. Is that really fine? I don't think so.
Everything is circumstantial though, so providing obscure numbers about 'this one time in pvp' I really try not to get into because theres always things that are left out. Yes, IBS hits hard. Its supposed to. It has to. Even as hard as its hitting now its not even close to being overpowered. What is overpowered (broken actually) is Roar which allows GWF to sort of override the dodge mechanic, which most classes must utilize to prevent the IBS. Once that is fixed, IBS becomes much harder to consistently land thus reinforcing the need for it to hit reasonably hard when it does land. And yes, I do think that the way it hits now against equally geared opponents is reasonable. (except perhaps the DC, for whatever unexplained or unimaginable reason)
The problem with GWF is not IBS. If anything, Takedown needs a damage reduction.
The problem with GWF is neither IBS nor TD. Its not just individual powers that is the problem.
It is its basic combat style as a whole, which is the problem. It is the fact that they have all the damage and damage/CC protection necessary for being a "heavy" fighter, but at the same time wield gap closers, movement speeds, and super-efficient CCs (and very best of those, even surpassing light-armoured classes) necessary for being a "light" fighter.
You can't duke it out and go toe-to-toe since they're so powerful up close, and you can't run away or kite them since they absolutely prevent you from doing anything, with all those CCs and gap closers.
It is effectively a ranged-tank-DPS that just uses a "melee skin" for the looks, the ranged projectiles being themselves.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
-Disclaimer- All Class Balancing suggestions and situations are based on top end BiS Gear and Potential of the Class
From the Eyes of a dedicated Pvpier who plays 10 hours a day on average I can safely say that class balance is the worst now then it has been since the initial release of Teneborus.
And unfortunately, it also seems like the released "ELO system" is non-existent or horribly broken
But lets start with the basic's.
First and foremost
Great Weapon Fighter (A.k.a The Class of Second Chances" Lets start off by saying that damage for a 2 handed fighter makes total sense.. But 40% more damage from a capstone? and a bugged Destroyer feat that adds an additional 50% tooltip damage? But that's not the best part yet.
Situation proposal: "Oh so you missed your 10-15K take-down hit, No worries, we'll give it back to you in 3 seconds. OH you also missed your Roar?! No worries 6 seconds and we'll give you back your CC that leaves your victim CC'D long enough to wait 6 seconds for your take-down to be back up! OH I also see your about to miss your 20K+ Damage Indomitable Battle Strike!? NO WORRIES AT ALL! you can just animation cancel it and try again later! By the way friend, you also don't have to worry about stacking offensive stats now. Just stack all defensive and we'll take care of the rest. After all, we're all about second chances here at GWF United!
Roar Glitch Needs to be fixed already
You took away Shocking Execution and put it on IBS
They get all their capstone stacks from Armor and Weapon enchants
I'm still surprised there hasn't been any complaints about take-down having a seemingly infinite range once its casted. the reason for this is because the game registers that it hit you during the beginning of the animation, but the prone dosen't actually come to the very end. therefore if I'm repelled per say, out of the GWF's range, takedown will still hit me when his animation ends.
Maybe a bit dramatic. But that's the state of GWF in a nutshell. It's damage needs to be scaled back by 20% Easy, and its cool-down time with the current damage is a COMPLETE joke, while also having unlimited range closer potential and now a CC break thats up 20% more, as compared to last patch. Seriously? I thought Great Weapon Fighter wasn't OP enough already
Hunter Ranger: At least this class's OP potential is not intended unlike the GWF, and I'll look the other way in regards to negligence because the class is still very young, but someone needs to blow the horn. Natures Blessing is ridiculously OP, even with GWF the way it is now, with both classes at max potential it is IMPOSSIBLE for an HR to die 1v1. Why?
Natures Blessing Adds an additional 20% less healing depression on max stats
Forest Meditation is basically a guaranteed full heal and HR's have the games fastest AP gain
With proper rotation Skill, in a 1v1 an HR can keep his opponent permanently CC'd between Constricting and Dazing shot (which is fair, but not when you have everything else that I listed)
40,000 HP+ and its beyond easy to stack 2k regen
Lone wolf? are you serious, the supposedly "range class" has more base DR in a 1v1 situation then a TR and sometimes even more then the plated GWF and GF
Take a look at an unamed HR on page 1 of the scoreboard K/d 39+ per 1 kill, and only HR's have anything close to that
I currently carry one of the best K/d's in the game on my TR at a 17+ and I have to struggle to keep that (But thats mostly because 50% of my deaths are GWF related, and 90% of whats not GWF related are glitch related)
It's damage is actually pretty balanced if it were possible to kill them, so no complaints there.
Trickster Rogue: Pretty much the martyr of misunderstood Classes, but yes it's rotation is pretty hard to beat for new players. But I can guarantee you, having played rogue since beta, killing even the "Perm stealth's" is a breeze when using the two prior classes.
Path of Blades is ridiculous. It's skilless, and should've never have been replaced by nerfing Impact shot
Impact Shot: I'm still dumbfounded that a TRIPLE Dipping nerf went through, like what? Tenacity nerfing its damage, Then 33% damage nerf, then your seriously going to take 33% damage for every charge I don't have left? Congratulations, my Cloud of steel hits harder now, and you made the class even MORE skilless
Since beta and this is my third time mentioning it
ITC and Shadow Strike glitch NEED TO BE FIXED ALREADY
Example: Great Weapon Fighter uses take-down on me the same time I use ITC, instead of ITC just not going off, it cycles through a cool down, I take the prone, and the ITC affect never goes off
Shadow Strike will do the same thing if you lose target of the person after casting
Shocking Execution Gets 2 kills off of someone with Soulforge, this needs to be amended
Control Wizard: Honestly, Not much to say about this class, at max potential it's a monster in a group fight, and is working pretty well. but with HR and GWF being way over the top CW is extremely Hindered
and seriously, Please fix shard disappearing bug already, every form of CC besides Prone's and Daring's remove the boulder. on top of the fact that any entity on the floor such as thorn ward and Hallowed ground will bug the boulders prone attribute.
And they need to fix it's armor pen already then once armor does infact work, scale back its damage by a small amount
Guardian Fighter: Seriously, so much wasted potential with the way this class is now
Giving GWF the GF paragon path was the biggest mistake in this game.
GF needs a complete rework of the shield, my suggestion is a stamina bar like the TR where it drains moderately fast, but recovers at a decent pace to make using the shield more skillful instead of just extra HP
It's still no where near as tanky as a GWF, and the GF has a shield
20% More damage minimum
Devoted Cleric: Seriously, the stuff that has been done to this class has nearly made me quit the game
A cleric can't 1v1 any class on max potential now, which is beyond stupidity.
Without a doubt, clerics should be able to survive against anything 1v1 if they're good. and the only way to do that would be allowing them to heal themselves for more then whats currently possible, and the nerfing of Sunburst's pushback with tenacity made them useless in a 1v1 (even if they can live) because now they can't help their team get points
Now my understanding of each class isn't perfection, so I hope experienced players will further help my case
ELO System
Alright, now I'm truly convinced it either doesn't exist, or it's not even working
Whenever I que solo, I'm stuck either carrying my pugs completely, while demolishing the other team
or I'm stuck demolishing the other team with my pugs destroying them to
I have not yet, had 1 single game where I queued solo and the teams were even
Don't get me wrong, I've had close games, but that's more on account of peoples lack of understanding that they have to stand on the point to win..
If anyone has intelligent and constructive information about any class listed that they can prove with #'s, then PM me over Forum or In-game and I will add it to the class breakdown.
In the first 100 top positions in the leaderboard there are:
36 TRs
35 GWFs
22 HRs
6 classes in game... from a theorical points of view, the averange rapresentation for class is 100/6 = around 17 if all classes are balanced.
the OP HRs (for you) are almost aligned to the theorical math with 22/100 (also the GFs are out of the equation as PvP class for the top positions... so the real averange is 20) ... as I wrote somethings.. the HR is the only true balanced class (maybe the pathfinders need some fixes, but is not really a FOTM).
The HRs are also the only class that "equalize" the PvP mechanism for the others not so well suited classes for PvP (DC, GF and partial CW)... and the only true wall against GWFs and TRs... as wrote the guy with the higher numbers of assists in game.
U call underpowerd the TRs (and ask for a buff) the class that is at the top with 36/100.
U are a clown, Sir.
HR Syncro - The Equalizer - PvP stats: 10000/4800 (kills/deaths)
In the first 100 top positions in the leaderboard there are:
36 TRs
35 GWFs
22 HRs
6 classes in game... from a theorical points of view, the averange rapresentation for class is 100/6 = around 17 if all classes are balanced.
the OP HRs (for you) are almost aligned to the theorical math with 22/100 (also the GFs are out of the equation as PvP class for the top positions... so the real averange is 20) ... as I wrote somethings.. the HR is the only true balanced class (maybe the pathfinders need some fixes, but is not really a FOTM).
The HRs are also the only class that "equalize" the PvP mechanism for the others not so well suited classes for PvP (DC, GF and partial CW)... and the only true wall against GWFs and TRs... as wrote the guy with the higher numbers of assists in game.
U call underpowerd the TRs (and ask for a buff) the class that is at the top with 36/100.
U are a clown, Sir.
First off, the scoreboard is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and inaccurate, anyone in mainstream pvp would tell you as such.
Secondly, I asked for a FIX not a buff, and if you actually took the time to research my current stance on TR you'd see that I believe the class is OP right now and I believe that PoB should be nerfed and a skill that requires more skill should take its place
Thirdly, Are you serious?!?! you really think TR is more OP then a max potential HR or GWF!? LIKE what!? what drugs are you on, I want some
This is how a GWF is balanced : 7:25] [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! MayynaK deals 19320 (35958) Physical Damage to you with Indomitable Battle Strike.
ps: i'm a gf with 19% tenacity, 48%dr 40k hp 27% deflect
This is ****ed up in the head. I have nothing else to add.
Wow wow, easier) You've just summoned GWF defenders. Wait for some "you had 1% HP" and "GWF was 100k GS" and "screenshot or didn't happen" dudes.
The thing about TRs is they are, currently, a class that has the most overpowered mechanics which you barely can fix, because it is how the class was designed. Sure, permastealth is very strong, but it mostly just annoys people, because they can't kill permas. And this is game breaking because of stupid point contesting mechanics. Remove point contesting and TRs will be the most useless class in the game.
I still prefer perma TR over HR or GWF in an enemy team ANY DAY.
M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
Comments
True, heavily geared players manage bigger numbers than that
Trickster Rogue: they should remove Shadow Strike and replace it with something else (like a new CC ability). Also buff their combat encounters and slightly increase their stealth bar regen. This will get rid of the perma stealth builds but keep them competitive.
Devoted Cleric: I disagree with your view. The DC is doing just fine with healing and damage mitigation. The problem the class faces is it doesn't do enough DPS and their combat encounters are comical. We do NOT need a return of the unkillable clerics. No, no, no.
Guardian Fighter: need bump to DPS but prone chaining needs to be addressed too. There should be something like a 2 second immunity from being proned again (still take the damage).
Control Wizard: agreed on armor pen for their abilities and nerfing some of their AoE encounters. Currently on my CW I can stack Power like crazy and do obscene amounts of damage. In PvP I hit like a ton of bricks too. If I were forced to rebalance to take Armor Pen in to account I couldn't do that (as much).
At best, IV was given to gwf for practical reasons by devs who were late and had no proper paragon ready. Remember, it's the same devs who implemented the HR in Dread Ring (instead of Sharandar), the Warlock in 2015 (instead of Dread ring), the Druid in 2099 (instead of IWD).
Tired of Dailies/Tyranny of Dailies/Timers of Doom/Tricked Or Duped/Tremendously Obnoxious Dailies/Try Otherwise, Devs
you missed the message completely. It is an at will but...with a 2.5 secs charge that can be interrupted by a fly <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> (aka DoT of even 1 dmg). It's very similar to Stag in every aspect (minus the interrupt, i think) So it's really a one-of-a-kind "at will" <-lol
1v1 me !!!!
I don't know what land of fairness you live in, but on a top end pvp level dc's get killed by everything 1v1, besides a GF, how is this fair!? DC SHOULD BE ABLE TO 1v1 AND NOT DIE IF THEY'RE GOOD
50% tooltip damage? Destroyer stacks last for 1.9 - 2.0 seconds, that statement is not valid. Useless ability that has no COnsistency, and will never do that much dmg, Also no valid proof of 50% tooltip dmg.
All of your numbers are completely exaggerated, 10-15k takedown ? in whos dreams? screen shot agains a equally geared players please. 17k+.
20k IBS? against an eqaully geared player? Not even in ur dreams.
Takedown range is active at time of activation. It has nothing to do with range, Dodge earlier.
My solution was to give them more DPS to win a 1v1. Your solution is for them to heal themselves forever and....what? It isn't like that opponent went away because you showed off your awesome healing capability. To win a 1v1 you have to beat the other person by killing them.
10-15k IBSs do happen, and with unsettling regularity.
See a previous poster: [10:10] [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Vlad deals 33316 (40245) Physical Damage to you with Indomitable Battle Strike.
This was done to one of the tankiest DCs in the game. I've seen it done to my BiS DC with 37k HP and over 40% DR several times as well.
At least it's getting fixed.
I didn't roll a DC to DPS. If I wanted to DPS, I'd pick another class. If you give a DC enough DPS to win a 1v1 against a decent (or half decent) player, DCs will be seriously unbalanced. Because the DC can't kill another person on a node (and shouldn't be able to if the opponent knows how to play), the least they should be able to do is stalemate it with the right gear and experience.
I don't think the DC should have the ability to clear a point alone. They should at least be able to hold it in a 1v1.
You are simply used to DCs with no dmg. That everybody make tanky clerics is not because they are so amazing tanks (frankly, they are not), it's because their DPS is even worse than GFs, therefore, no other option.
Pretty similar to the situation TRs are currently in: many of them would prefer be a hard hitting killing machines if that would be a viable now.
That's how it is, but it is not how it suppose to be, and I agree with spongebob here that clerics should have more dps.
Interesting Ideas!
TR: I like this, a CC ability or heck, even a "dodge" type buff like HRs get could go will in rotations with ITC. Id like to see TRs deal more damage and not be forced to hide in the shadows.
GF: ALL you need here is to put ARP on Con and Crit on Dex (Like GWFs have) and then removed the punt effect on bull rush so its just a knockdown - like boar rush. Then IMO id like to see guard on a stamina meter so it cant be blown up in 2 seconds...
Allowing players to queue with 5 GWF is a bigger problem than the class itself. Fix this first.
GPF is (I believe) unintentionally working as a superstacker. Fix this next.
Fixing these two problems (along with the official Roar fix) will reveal that the current Destroyer is actually no where near as much of a problem in Domination as a Sentinel pre-healing depression, Mod 2, Deep Gash/SotS, Vorpal GWF.
CALM DOWN :cool:
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
Clerics dps "could" be ok if arpen wasnt broken on ticks, a combo of break the spirit, ff and bots/w plaguefire, should be a fairly good rotation... but since arpen doesnt work with it , it sucks basicaly.
Even with all that, the finisher for clerics "daunting light" or dl is so amazingly slow, you dont even have to dodge out of its way, you can basically walk before the effect hits. Sad.
In terms of being tanky, they haven't been truly amazingly tanky since pre pvp tenacity patch, at that point, any cleric with MH armour and ashield could stand and take all sorts of damage, add in 3k defense, some deflect and some regen..viola, sitting pretty, didnt even have to be AC, a DO cleric was still kinda of tanky and a AC one was even better.
with the double (undeserved) double whammy of healing depression and righteousness , along with the scaling upwards of dps output, and the constant proning, cc without any immunity, the cleric isnt in a great spot .. they can however directly influence outcomes of matches, with the right team set up and protection.
For day to day pugging, with random and wierd group compositions, not always pretty to play with.
Im not here asking for nerfs to anyone or any one class per se, I just wanted to point out, as far as healers go, this is the weakest version of a healer Ive played in any mmo pvp.. It has all sorts of ways to compete, but the nerfs/bugs prevent it from being effective. (still blows my mind that they had to nerf hallowed ground healing in that last patch.. just what is exactly thier issue against dcs, is beyond me)
agree with this 100%
Yup, this.
Also, since it's apparently not working, they should REMOVE the leaver penalty. Getting stomped without being able to get to 500 is such a frustrating WASTE OF TIME.
Getting fixed huh? Apparently the damage difference after the nerfs will be about 5%. So if by fixed you mean that a GWF can hit a tanky DC for 31k instead of 33k, then yeah, it's getting fixed.
Well, since no matter what, you are demolishing the other team, one must simply assume you are a God, whose skills are unfathomable by any rating system. In fact, you might be just so good that having to try to calculate your awesomeness may have broken the rating system singlehandedly, and may also be responsible for the lag some are experiencing.
I'm starting to think that there's some kind of hidden balancing tool that the devs are using. For whatever reason, DC get smashed by IBS WAY harder than any other class at equal gear. It's really unexplainable...
However, IBS hits for numbers that you should expect against other classes. The whole 30k vs tanky DC thing has really been blowing these forums up and now people want to nerf IBS even though it works fine in every other circumstance.
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
It regularly takes half my health at 30k. Is that really "fine"? I don't think so.
Anyway, "Maybe" it would be ok if that was the main source of damage. But everything hits harder now.
When every move takes 1/4 the health of someone, and a couple take 1/2, it's a little freaking nuts.
I regularly hit HRs for less than 2k with IBS. Is that really fine? I don't think so.
Everything is circumstantial though, so providing obscure numbers about 'this one time in pvp' I really try not to get into because theres always things that are left out. Yes, IBS hits hard. Its supposed to. It has to. Even as hard as its hitting now its not even close to being overpowered. What is overpowered (broken actually) is Roar which allows GWF to sort of override the dodge mechanic, which most classes must utilize to prevent the IBS. Once that is fixed, IBS becomes much harder to consistently land thus reinforcing the need for it to hit reasonably hard when it does land. And yes, I do think that the way it hits now against equally geared opponents is reasonable. (except perhaps the DC, for whatever unexplained or unimaginable reason)
The problem with GWF is not IBS. If anything, Takedown needs a damage reduction.
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
For starters, the following would probably make for interesting results in terms of "TR combat that doesn't prompt you to enter stealth and stay there 99% of the time":
Dodge-like immunity granted to the following powers:
■ Deft Strike: Upon activation, throughout "disappear" phase of the power. Vulnerable when pops out back again
■ Blitz: Upon activation, throughout "shift backwards" phase of the power. Vulnerable when fires off daggers
■ Vengeance's Pursuit: Upon VP(teleport) activation and throughout the entire power activation
■ Bait 'n Switch: Upon activation, throughout the entire power activation
The combat would be played out like:
■ encounter a GWF, GWF sprints toward you
■ 1st anticipated move, FSL or TD: Time Deft Strike to counter prone and appear behind GWF
■ 2nd anticipated move, TD or FSL: Throw Blitz daggers to counter 2nd prone and shift back to buy some distance
■ 3rd anticipated move, IBS: dodge backwards from Blitz-shift position to buy more distance to get away from IBS
■ enter stealth, land Lashing Blades from stealth
■ at-will fight for a few seconds, TD back in recharge, anticipate timing
■ GWF goes into Unstoppable, and tries TD, dodge away and run to buy some time
■ Deft Strike back in recharge, use it to counter next attack
..and etc etc..
Basically powers with noteable combat utility that helps you fight and survive without stealth or ITC. Unlike stealth or ITC, it is not passive -- it needs correct timing and anticipation. Take the fight "tricky" befitting that of a "Trickster" Rogue.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
The problem with GWF is neither IBS nor TD. Its not just individual powers that is the problem.
It is its basic combat style as a whole, which is the problem. It is the fact that they have all the damage and damage/CC protection necessary for being a "heavy" fighter, but at the same time wield gap closers, movement speeds, and super-efficient CCs (and very best of those, even surpassing light-armoured classes) necessary for being a "light" fighter.
You can't duke it out and go toe-to-toe since they're so powerful up close, and you can't run away or kite them since they absolutely prevent you from doing anything, with all those CCs and gap closers.
It is effectively a ranged-tank-DPS that just uses a "melee skin" for the looks, the ranged projectiles being themselves.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Actually I do think that's fine. In a 1v1 with aspect of the lone wolf providing 20% extra damage mitigation, on a non-crit deflected IBS.
Deflected attacks aren't representative.
I can't tell you the laughable numbers I get from aimed strikes deflected on GWFs.
Basically you guys are running around with a daily finisher as an encounter, and every other encounter and ability are hitting like monster trucks.
It just can't seem ok, even to a GWF player.
In the first 100 top positions in the leaderboard there are:
36 TRs
35 GWFs
22 HRs
6 classes in game... from a theorical points of view, the averange rapresentation for class is 100/6 = around 17 if all classes are balanced.
the OP HRs (for you) are almost aligned to the theorical math with 22/100 (also the GFs are out of the equation as PvP class for the top positions... so the real averange is 20) ... as I wrote somethings.. the HR is the only true balanced class (maybe the pathfinders need some fixes, but is not really a FOTM).
The HRs are also the only class that "equalize" the PvP mechanism for the others not so well suited classes for PvP (DC, GF and partial CW)... and the only true wall against GWFs and TRs... as wrote the guy with the higher numbers of assists in game.
U call underpowerd the TRs (and ask for a buff) the class that is at the top with 36/100.
U are a clown, Sir.
First off, the scoreboard is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and inaccurate, anyone in mainstream pvp would tell you as such.
Secondly, I asked for a FIX not a buff, and if you actually took the time to research my current stance on TR you'd see that I believe the class is OP right now and I believe that PoB should be nerfed and a skill that requires more skill should take its place
Thirdly, Are you serious?!?! you really think TR is more OP then a max potential HR or GWF!? LIKE what!? what drugs are you on, I want some
Quoted line for line for major truth. And did you see Gwf vs Gwf? It's like seeing GF vs GF sometimes.
ps: i'm a gf with 19% tenacity, 48%dr 40k hp 27% deflect
This is ****ed up in the head. I have nothing else to add.
Wow wow, easier) You've just summoned GWF defenders. Wait for some "you had 1% HP" and "GWF was 100k GS" and "screenshot or didn't happen" dudes.
The thing about TRs is they are, currently, a class that has the most overpowered mechanics which you barely can fix, because it is how the class was designed. Sure, permastealth is very strong, but it mostly just annoys people, because they can't kill permas. And this is game breaking because of stupid point contesting mechanics. Remove point contesting and TRs will be the most useless class in the game.
I still prefer perma TR over HR or GWF in an enemy team ANY DAY.