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Why Greater Plaguefire is a Bad Idea.
juicebox87
Member Posts: 61 Arc User
Hey guys.
So today I ran into a Hunter ranger with a lower gear load out and much lower stats than mine, trying to convince me why GPF is the best weapon enchantment for Hunter Ranger at the moment. He proceeded to tell me that GPF apparently triggers with the new At-will Careful Attack multiple times as many as the GPF ticks to deal massive damage overall. I was concerned as to how overpowered that might seem, as GPF enchantments are known to tick many, many times until the stack drops. So I bought a GPF and went to PvP with it. What I noticed in response to current rumors about this enchantment and its use with certain skills has been argued with many for the past week. Numbers don't lie people. I will share my findings here.
Use with skills.
Careful attack: This skill has been rumored and boasted to trigger a GPF on every tick of a GPF damage. It does not however and anyone who knows how to use a damage calculator, and read combat logs can see that its use is limited to one skill only as a minor beneficial increase of DPS. It however only ticks as the first stack of damage is applied, such as once for the attack, and once more for the stack of GPF being applied. Most at best, does this deal 200-500 damage from various mitigations of certain classes.
Thornward: GPF deals an additional 1 trigger to careful attack during all stacks applied with this enchantment, thornward however increases its overall efficiency due to being a node control skill, has its best argument presented here. It triggers once per attack of thornward, and once for the stack of GPF applied. Versus a Perfect Vorpal this skill, has the potential for slightly higher damage ratios. This encounter is also very popular among Hunters in domination. I however do not see why as most people just stand outside of it and attack you or close in for bursts that allow them to mitigate the overall efficiency of the skill. It is most potent fighting great weapon fighters due to the Debuff it provides, when contesting a node. Then again, you're a Hunter. You should be floating DPS and assisting damage allocation for your group, not trying to tank a node for a win. That is a tank's job.
Constricting Shot: GPF with this skill is lackluster at best. Not allowing any further DPS or utility versus a Perfect Vorpal, infact I will get to why this is a big deal as we continue. For the moment I will only say there is no increase, but an actual decrease of DPS here verse the two enchantments.
Fox Shift: Same as Constricting Shot there is a major loss of overall damage here. Hunter Rangers are known for their critical strength and Vorpal utilizes it to its max potential. Were as using this skill with a GPF greatly decreases its overall DPS, as much as 1,000-3,000 damage.
Marauder's Escape: No utilization here for GPF to make a difference but an actual loss of overall DPS Vs Vorpals.
Binding Arrow: A great skill for fighting tank classes that have massive amounts of healing effects for you an overall increase in survivability, GPF has no initial increase on this skills effectiveness.
So, in short. The small amount of DPS versus the high amount of burst damage that makes a Hunter Ranger lethal to most classes is taken away with the use of GPF. One encounter and one at-will triggered together adds a slightly higher damage ratio for node control in PvP Domination. The loss of over all critical damage with the use of GPF is staggering. If you own both I employ you to test it out with a damage calculator and see for yourself how much damage you are losing over all to your bursts. You will be surprised to find that it is in the six digit marks for overall dps per minute.
example:
GPF: Fox Shift Deals 2200 Critical, 500 Careful Attack, GPF 500 Careful Attack Damage.
Perfect Vorpal: Fox Shift Deals 3600 Critical, 500 Careful Attack
This may not seem like a lot you but the fact of the matter is the skill that benefits GPF with Careful attack the most can easily be avoided in pvp not allowing you to deal the max potency of damage allotted for critical attacks. So there is an overall decrease in DPS per minute which in most fights I've had with GPF hunters they can stay alive like most, but deal the saddest damage i've ever seen. One encounters damage being buffed by low damage doesn't mean you should sacrifice large amounts of damage on other skills due to utility.
Thanks for reading and I hope this clears up a lot of the superstitions about the use of this enchantment on a class that has zero need for its debuff or DoT damage, with the loss of tremendous amounts of overall DPS. I have found the amount of Burst DPS loss versus other Hunters of my same gear load out to be tremendous.
So today I ran into a Hunter ranger with a lower gear load out and much lower stats than mine, trying to convince me why GPF is the best weapon enchantment for Hunter Ranger at the moment. He proceeded to tell me that GPF apparently triggers with the new At-will Careful Attack multiple times as many as the GPF ticks to deal massive damage overall. I was concerned as to how overpowered that might seem, as GPF enchantments are known to tick many, many times until the stack drops. So I bought a GPF and went to PvP with it. What I noticed in response to current rumors about this enchantment and its use with certain skills has been argued with many for the past week. Numbers don't lie people. I will share my findings here.
Use with skills.
Careful attack: This skill has been rumored and boasted to trigger a GPF on every tick of a GPF damage. It does not however and anyone who knows how to use a damage calculator, and read combat logs can see that its use is limited to one skill only as a minor beneficial increase of DPS. It however only ticks as the first stack of damage is applied, such as once for the attack, and once more for the stack of GPF being applied. Most at best, does this deal 200-500 damage from various mitigations of certain classes.
Thornward: GPF deals an additional 1 trigger to careful attack during all stacks applied with this enchantment, thornward however increases its overall efficiency due to being a node control skill, has its best argument presented here. It triggers once per attack of thornward, and once for the stack of GPF applied. Versus a Perfect Vorpal this skill, has the potential for slightly higher damage ratios. This encounter is also very popular among Hunters in domination. I however do not see why as most people just stand outside of it and attack you or close in for bursts that allow them to mitigate the overall efficiency of the skill. It is most potent fighting great weapon fighters due to the Debuff it provides, when contesting a node. Then again, you're a Hunter. You should be floating DPS and assisting damage allocation for your group, not trying to tank a node for a win. That is a tank's job.
Constricting Shot: GPF with this skill is lackluster at best. Not allowing any further DPS or utility versus a Perfect Vorpal, infact I will get to why this is a big deal as we continue. For the moment I will only say there is no increase, but an actual decrease of DPS here verse the two enchantments.
Fox Shift: Same as Constricting Shot there is a major loss of overall damage here. Hunter Rangers are known for their critical strength and Vorpal utilizes it to its max potential. Were as using this skill with a GPF greatly decreases its overall DPS, as much as 1,000-3,000 damage.
Marauder's Escape: No utilization here for GPF to make a difference but an actual loss of overall DPS Vs Vorpals.
Binding Arrow: A great skill for fighting tank classes that have massive amounts of healing effects for you an overall increase in survivability, GPF has no initial increase on this skills effectiveness.
So, in short. The small amount of DPS versus the high amount of burst damage that makes a Hunter Ranger lethal to most classes is taken away with the use of GPF. One encounter and one at-will triggered together adds a slightly higher damage ratio for node control in PvP Domination. The loss of over all critical damage with the use of GPF is staggering. If you own both I employ you to test it out with a damage calculator and see for yourself how much damage you are losing over all to your bursts. You will be surprised to find that it is in the six digit marks for overall dps per minute.
example:
GPF: Fox Shift Deals 2200 Critical, 500 Careful Attack, GPF 500 Careful Attack Damage.
Perfect Vorpal: Fox Shift Deals 3600 Critical, 500 Careful Attack
This may not seem like a lot you but the fact of the matter is the skill that benefits GPF with Careful attack the most can easily be avoided in pvp not allowing you to deal the max potency of damage allotted for critical attacks. So there is an overall decrease in DPS per minute which in most fights I've had with GPF hunters they can stay alive like most, but deal the saddest damage i've ever seen. One encounters damage being buffed by low damage doesn't mean you should sacrifice large amounts of damage on other skills due to utility.
Thanks for reading and I hope this clears up a lot of the superstitions about the use of this enchantment on a class that has zero need for its debuff or DoT damage, with the loss of tremendous amounts of overall DPS. I have found the amount of Burst DPS loss versus other Hunters of my same gear load out to be tremendous.
Post edited by juicebox87 on
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Comments
There are quite a few HRs who don't realise the benefits and limitations of GPF Pathfinder, which is why it's become the FotM build. People who have tested it would agree with your assessment - it's lower DPS overall except when defending/attacking nodes against Melee. It's popularity is largely based around it's effectiveness vs GWFs.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
I run with nothing but Pre-mades with a guild. Usually with 1-2 GWF and A Devoted Cleric. Tanking nodes should be left to GWF and TR's IMO. But very valid point for PUG and low geared HR's. My ELO rarely allows undergeared groups.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
lol wut? Afaik your bow enchantment carries over to your blades, which cannot be enchanted on its own.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
So I REALLY was drunk:(
That said, PF is still a valid choice if your primary purpose is not just maximum personal DPS.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
3 stacks of my normal plague fire is a 3x10% defence debuff, which I think equals what..? 3000 arpen..? Presuming it stacks in a straight add. Anyway, too tired to research it. Tough day at work, and nerf bues.
I'm using a Lesser PF myself at the moment mainly due to the advantages with CA but also because of the multi-purpose use you mention. But a Vorpal would equate to better personal DPS in most cases.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
My guess is that this combination is optimal in Premades, where everyone has a definite role and an overall strategy to follow. In pugs, as Lirithiel said, it's all about taking down an opponent faster. Brutal reality, still reality
Plus it procs things like rampaging madness.
Also 1 shot and someone's dismounted.
And getting 1 or two extra procs on a rogue while their in stealth is VERY helpful.
Overall damage is probably a bit better for p.vorpal but you're missing some utility. I traded my p.vorpal for g.plaguefire.
If self-perpetuating careful attack is the only thing you're looking for, I think a bilethorn would do it, not a plaguefire.
Yes, I don't think that GPF can out DPS a Pbile. It would just make more sense to have a Pbile. It attempting to have more dps contesting a node.
G.Plaguefire is insufficent to use as any real means of "increased damage" a la P.Vorpal. The increase in overall damage more or less follows along the same lines of PvE, and thus, 3 stacks of 15% for a 45% debuff in defense, actually attributes to around 9~10% damage increase in PvP, same as PvE.
Now, don't ask me why 45% of the defense values being debuffed equates to only 10% increase in damage. I don't know if its working properly or not. All I can say through extensive experience and massive amounts of field-testing, is that G.Plaguefire, by itself, isn't a real big increase in damage.
It is absolutely precious as a debuff against your targets in a team-level combat -- ie. a 10% increase in damage for ALL you party members, against a DC in the node 2 fight will make a difference, yes. But if you wish to really see its effects in a 1vs1 scenario, then you need a specialized debuff setup. I don't know if HRs have one, since I don't play HRs. With my TR I used to run a debuff setup that included:
■ 10% defense debuff with Blitz/Dazing Strike
■ 45% defense debuff G.Plaguefire
■ 16% defense debuff with Lantern Artifact
When all of these debuffs were correctly applied during combat, in 1vs1 yes, it makes a difference.
However, if you really want an enchantment that provides immediately noticeable results, then it is P.Bronzewood, currently the most underrated, overlooked, rarely used, potential unrealized enchantment for PvP in the game. I could sneak a guess that using this would provide significantly higher burst qualities.
If you've ever met a TR that's clearly not P.Vorpal, but makes you glow gold, and seemingly 'deletes' your HP bar down to less than 60% in the first 10 seconds of the fight with thrown knives which you've assumed would be puny damage like most MI-TRs are, then you've met me using P.Bronzewood in PvP. With P.Bronzewood, against HR-level mitigation/dodge/heals, most TRs with Bilethorn would do what.. 20% damage of HP? Mine does around 10k damage with the 8 CoS shots alone, plus added 6~7k total with DHS ticks. P.Bronzewood is really worth it, if you get used to the on/off time.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Well you have to apply bronze with an encounter so your daggers in the first 10 seconds of the fight are not benefiting from the debuff. Pretty sure bronze is a terrible choice for TR but I may be a little out of the loop...
About GPF I'm pretty sure it's BiS for HR right now. You are looking at it wrong, it's not the debuff it's the ticks which proc all of your HR retardedness. Same with GWF, you run GPF for it's for the tics that proc destroyer not for the BS debuff.
I haven't looked at Bronzewood for HR because Careful Attack synergises better with Plaguefire. Also, although we have a lot of encounters not all of them are direct attacks. Worth testing though - BW is a great enchant and much underrated (which means cheap on the AH).
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
I have been absolutely destroying Hr's running GPF at the moment and few rarely drop me below 50% Hp. Its additional tick of one careful attack doesn't make a difference unless your standing in Thornward. Which makes you bad anyways. Even then the P-vorp, is the same damage with high critical chance which all Melee HR's have. Get a dmg calc and look at how much dps a minute your losing even with the use of Thorn, the rest of your skills significantly lack dps for crits which give an HR its bursting abilities.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
I really don't see where you could be fighting an HR other than on a point in which case you're in his AOE and dieing. I'm glad you feel like you're doing well with bronze but it's pretty safe for us to assume that you are either fighting terrible low GS hunters, or fighting off point.
A good indicator that Bronze is not good for TR is that none of the PvP TRs use it. This game isent complicated, there are not a lot of feating/power/gearing options. There is a Meta with each class, and it's the Meta because it's the best. People try to come up with their own tricky slick builds to be different, and that's fine! Just don't be blind to the fact that if your build really was all that, then everyone would be using it.
Also remember this is PvP we are talking about, not PvE. Damage meters and the like are generally not useful for determining effectiveness of single abilities or builds. You have to look at how you are going to be using said abilities/builds within a PvP environment.
*edit*. Thought you were TR, got your post kinda mixed up with another one. Most of whats above still works though. HR meta is GPF I believe so that's the best if that's what the top players are using. That's all there really is to it. If the top players are running pvorp then that's the best. Pretty easy to figure out. Bottom line is you have not found some secret formula to awesomeness that no one else is aware of.
On your more general point - someone is always first to discover the best build.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
I've used this metaphor before but the way I see it, in all practicality the way the Pathfinder HRs are running right now can be very simply described as a "NW-version" of the WoW/Burning Crusade Warlock.
Dunno if any of you have evey played it, but for old-time gamers who've played mainstream-PvP in WoW, the 'Warlcok' class after the Burning Crusade expansion had had almost iconic consequences in the game -- like, with every expansion that old game went through new "OP" classes would rise to symbolize the era. The BC Warlock was one of it, and its playstyle became so iconic that if you ask any old WoW player they'd all go "Oh yeah... the Burning Crusade Warlocks... haha.. now that was really bad to go up against.."...but I digress.
Anyhow, basically the BC Warlock's play style is summarized by the following 3 elements:
■ extremely tanky defenses and moderate sustained self-healing
■ non-stop, constant CC through means of fear/terror/disorientation, etc..
■ unending stream of DoTs
Basically a combination of [outlast the opponent] + [bleed him dry] tactics. The Warlock would first deal a fear/terror spell from range, which basically disorients you and makes you run around wild doing nothing. Then the DoT streams are applied, which deal constant bits of damage that is small, but just goes on and on and on... and then in the rare times you are off from the effects of the CC, you can't deal enough damage to the Warlock because he's so darn tanky.
IMO the current Pathfinders really remind me of the Warlocks. The basic principles of combat are exactly the same. (1) You aim for extreme tanky defenses through feats, gear, massive HP, etc... (2) Then apply constant barrage of constricting/disrupting ranged CCs... (3) and then of course, endless stream of mild DoTs from Careful Attack, which is constantly on you until you drop dead.
Interestingly the Warlock was also considered a ranged/caster class that was extremely powerful against melees -- just as the Pathfinders are. For Pathfinders the pure DPS aspect just doesn't seem to be an important issue. I could see why HRs would figure a loss in damage would be an acceptable consequence in order to maintain the playstyle.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
There are none. Every single MMO game (not even MMORPG only, any Online game) these days favors casual Derp™ class players. And with that comes absolutely messed up game design, every time in every case.
"Balanced PVP" is a concept that gets perfected through prolonged analysis of the gameplay, which includes a LOT of cooperation with LOTS of players. Just like it was in late WotLK, where despite various issues a fragile balance was finally achieved.
Now take a look at what we have here: some two Derps™ fail to kill a HR, they make a video of their failure, they post it in the HR section. Two days, HRs receive further nerf. Wham-bam, thank you ma'am.
So yeah. Name me one MMO out there that meets our requirements. I will quit this bullshift that one instant.
I've threatened Ghostcrawler and got permabanned at Blizzard forums.
I went mad at PL "community" in SWTOR and got permabanned.
Believe me, you don't want to see the tickets I used to sent to CCP. I got permabanned from EVE.
I was infuriated by the amount of autists in League of Legends and got permabanned. Twice.
Cryptic, here I go.
Lo and behold.
Where did you read they're nerfing the damage for careful attack? It's already pretty low.
They do that and basically there's nothing good from either paragon for pvp lol.
Cause leetist jerks like YOU won't share your seekrets Mousey!
Go open some chests! =D
It has to do with procing stuff, the ticks proc stuff that procs other stuff that leads to OPness. That's how I understand it from listening to our HRs talking. I'm sure there is more too it, not sure if it's going to be relevant after they fix whatever they fix but if you just stalk mouse and inspect him, then use that, you'll be fine
He will also cyber with you if you PM him in game, he's very giving!