chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited May 2014
I'll admit I haven't logged since mod 3, but I see the same debates rage on.
I think I can speak a bit because there weren't any big changes to cw coming,
I haven't found anything MoF style better than I what I was using. We tested almost everything we could think of, and I think this style maximized team effectiveness, which is the most important factor in winning.
I bumped my build to help you guys. Hope that helps.
soletiusMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 9Arc User
edited June 2014
guys.. you can say whatever you want... but did you try the FtF after using a Coi on tab that crit's?
and with an icy terrain? start stacking everything... all guys become volcanos... just rushing red numbers out of their head... only really good spellstorm mage win me in dps... and i'm 14.5 k gs not even 15...
so i think that MoF as it's a DoT and not an entire DPS i really made an awesome build ^^ just can make one change the FtF feat ok
bye the way... chemboy... i think your build is better on buffing teammates and breaking defence.. however.. must think that wehn doing icewind and all the rest pve need mix dps and cc... try it out trust me... but.. with the lightning.. max power... armor pen at 2.1k max...
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited June 2014
Silverquick, you have to understand that even a poorly played CW is going to do massive amounts of damage. Doesn't mean your build is good.
If I wasn't messing around with a new IWD open-world SS spec, I'd love to go toe-to-toe with you in a dungeon. Myself, Chemboy and Spacejew spent weeks exhaustively testing a bunch of different aspects of the MoF (complete with parses and actually numbers). We have a pretty good idea how things work.
And it's not that DE is a terrible feat. It's the opportunity cost of what you COULD have taken instead. Do us a favor. Tonight, run around IWD doing all your HE's while parsing your build, and then post that parse here. We'll point out a few things for you, and maybe you'll see what we're talking about.
"Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
Silverquick, you have to understand that even a poorly played CW is going to do massive amounts of damage. Doesn't mean your build is good. .
No it won't,
Not a single CW managed to outdamage me in any skirmish yesterday. And this is IWD so we're all geared...
And that's Spellstorms we're talking about. You guys obviously did not account for a great many things.
While I will certainly not knock your builds...
For you to sit there and with a straight face tell me... "you're doing it wrong"... is laughable.
You're basically sitting you're saying to me. .. yeah I know you're outdamaging all these spellstorms AND wiping up in HEs AND getting Paingiver... BUT you're wrong....
I don't want to hear it...
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited June 2014
Relax. This isn't about you being bad. It's about the specific feat, Drifting Embers. It's wholly unnecessarily, and while you may "feel" that it's great, there's no analytical evidence to support that "feeling".
All I'm saying is that if you respec'd and dropped that feat, you wouldn't notice any difference in your performance, and in fact might notice an additional boost by incorporating 5 feat points where they're more beneficial.
"Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited June 2014
Let me put it another way.
You have two options as a class.
1) 25% chance to spread smolder to ONE target when you damage it (8 second CD).
or
2) 30% chance to spread smolder to 5/15/Unlimited number of targets (depending on the power) when you damage it (no CD).
Which do you take?
"Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
You have two options as a class.
1) 25% chance to spread smolder to ONE target when you damage it (8 second CD).
or
2) 30% chance to spread smolder to 5/15/Unlimited number of targets (depending on the power) when you damage it (no CD).
Which do you take?
Either one or BOTH, It also depends on what else I want to slot that will exclude one or the other.
Because Neither one of them are an absolute guarantee only a percentage chance, having both of them togather is optimal, Secondly... how many people are damaging those targets... how many times are they actually being hit to proc it?
Is it ONCE for 30% CHANCE... or is it 25 times for 25% on each shot for a smoldered target out of each.
So how much am I REALLY spreading on one or the other.
There is more to this than meets the eye my friend and I do not believe you have looked into all factors involved.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited June 2014
You're missing the key point. It's only when the target is affected by Fanning the Flames, which has a 4 second duration, and about a 10-12 second CD. That's the problem. When FtF isn't up, that feat is useless. And it's not up 50-66% of the time.
The actual window of opportunity to spread smolder via DE is very small, and the resulting DPS boost from it is negligible since MoF's have such a wide variety of ways to reliably spread smolder quickly to entire groups of mobs. And people would argue that those 5 feat points could have been spent elsewhere to give a better boost to your overall DPS. Like in the case of the OP, those 5 points would better be spent in something like Malevolent Surge, to earn up to a 30% damage boost for killing mobs, which a CW does A LOT!
"Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
And people would argue that those 5 feat points could have been spent elsewhere to give a better boost to your overall DPS. Like in the case of the OP, those 5 points would better be spent in something like Malevolent Surge, to earn up to a 30% damage boost for killing mobs, which a CW does A LOT!
In theory yes... and I took this one originally... in place of Drifting Embers.
.... Until I discovered that I was not actually getting the kills for many of those Mobs when I was MoF. As a Spellstorm I was always getting the kills.... but not as an MoF. It turned out to be better in theory than in practice.
But that's your answer as to why I didn't take it, or rather removed it from my build when it was there prior.
I think the OP's question has been sufficiently answered by people who actually know what they're talking about. Ignore Silverquick, he has already proven through his own commentary that he literally does not understand how powers and feats work for any type of Master of Flame and is unwilling to learn.
His claims on how DE function's are clearly incorrect and this is easily tested to be a fact. The follow up insistence that he is right, when such is demonstrably not the case, is further proof of his childishness.
His build is what it looks like when you just reached 60 and made a ton of mistakes while leveling. It's not a build, it's an amalgam of what sounded good at the time.
Clearly Silverquick has never bothered to respec and fix all those mistakes and replace them with well-reasoned and thought through choices and on top of that he refuses to acknowledge this clearly obvious fact.
Do not under perform like him. There are already enough bad mages out there. Sadly, you can be a bad mage and still do pretty well. Again, my signature and it's accompanying link explain why.
Sadly, 'pretty well' is only in comparison with other classes. Among wizard's you'll be a joke.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
Clearly Silverquick has never bothered to respec and fix all those mistakes and replace them with well-reasoned and thought through choices and on top of that he refuses to acknowledge this clearly obvious fact.
Sadly, 'pretty well' is only in comparison with other classes. Among wizard's you'll be a joke.
Aren't you done flapping lip yet?
I've already gone out there and proven all I needed to... you're just a lot of talk and theory with little behind it other than that and crumbled under the pressure.
And you couldn't even walk the walk when it came time.
Oh horrors, Spellstorms are just sooo powerful... us weak little MoFs need them nerfed.
You realized you're arguing with the few people who were very big advocates of the MoF when it launched, right? Have you checked out Chemboy's thread? We demonstrated that an equally geared and skilled MoF could keep pace (or even outdamage) a Spellstorm. We're the MoF choir here, buddy.
This isn't about Spellstorm vs. Master of the Flame. In my personal opinion, when you consider the ability to rapidly generate action points, the ease of targeting, and the ability to keep up consistent damage (and stacks of PF), I believe 100% the MoF is a superior paragon path to Spellstorm in a group setting.
You're having an argument with yourself. It's DE that's a less optimal feat, not the MoF path.
"Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
I've been following along silently - as the thread appears to have degenerated into a teet-for-tat argument between people.
Here's my experience, now that I have my Second Wizzie onto the MoF Paragon and using MoF pawers:
I love playing Wizard (well, all of them except GF). When new MoF was introduced, I played it on Preview - I didn't like it , it was too weak, it didn't do the damage Spellstorm did, I was used as a floor mop by mobs. BUT, I didn't understand the differences: Spellstorm being instaDPS and MoF being Fire-and-Forget (paraphrasing here, obviously). I am a casual player, not a min-maxer.
Then along comes this thread (earlier-on BEFORE the silly arguments) and I finally was able to understand the differences, thank you to those who explained it in plain language for simpletons like myself.
Now I am LOVING MoF Paragon and it feel more powerful than Spellstorm in this way: MoF seems to have some great AOE Damage that feels stronger (Fanning the Flame on Mastery, for example) - whereas with Spellstorm the AOE stuff only seems to be 'freezing" them in-place or pushing them away. yes, I know those also deal damage, but with FtF it seems more is put into the DPS than splitting (sharing) the DPS with Control.
I am totally enjoying the MoF paragon and if I create a third Wizard (getting tired of waiting for another class) I'll definitely go with MoF. In fact, playing this paragon on my Wizard has even caused me to reevaluate a few of the powers on Devoted Cleric, specifically the At-Will called "Brand of the Sun" that also sets the target on fire with a DoT - and I'm loving it!
Look, you guys can argue back-and-forth over which power is this or that and whatnot. However, speaking strictly from the "fun" perspective: Master of Flame rocks hard. Too bad a lot of other casual players aren't seeing this (from what I can tell, anyway).
Like angrysprite I've been reading quietly as well. I've played a Spellstorm for a long time and am comfortable with the way the bulk of the CW feats work, so when I respecced to MoF I put together a build based on that experience. And I took DE as the tooltip looks promising when you have no direct experience (plus my crit was low at the time).
Having got a better crit score and having read this thread I thought I'd play around with different powers. Two nights ago I slotted Icy Terrain alongside Steal Time which I carry anyway. Boy, what a difference. The ease with which you can spread smoulder using IT, ST, and OF (which is up a LOT) does seem to make DE redundant. My next respec will be used to replace it with something else. And I'm killing stuff MUCH faster.
Having got a better crit score and having read this thread I thought I'd play around with different powers. Two nights ago I slotted Icy Terrain alongside Steal Time which I carry anyway. Boy, what a difference. The ease with which you can spread smoulder using IT, ST, and OF (which is up a LOT) does seem to make DE redundant. My next respec will be used to replace it with something else. And I'm killing stuff MUCH faster.
Well, for the record... I actually tried that too, just did not work for me, and why I finally just removed Icy Terrain from my build entirely could not get any use out of it.
I even tried the CoI on tab to combine the Chill Stacks.... but then I did not get full use out of FtF, as it was only single target at that point.
While the OF being up quite a lot is nice, the problem I had was Icewind Dale mobs being too mobile for Icy Terrain, you really need a tight compact area for this one to be of use. And they'd kill you too fast to allow them to get or stay close enough, so you'd have to teleport across it, and they'd be on top of you again. Then you'd have enough time for maybe a spell or two before you had to teleport again.
And they just weren't going down any faster. I had hopes for it with the Corrupted Bears but it just did not work well for me there either. I had the idea to Smolder them for Rimfire, but could not keep them on the Ice Patch for very long.
In practicality, it seemed nice in theory... but didn't pan out in reality.
Comments
I think I can speak a bit because there weren't any big changes to cw coming,
I haven't found anything MoF style better than I what I was using. We tested almost everything we could think of, and I think this style maximized team effectiveness, which is the most important factor in winning.
I bumped my build to help you guys. Hope that helps.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
and with an icy terrain? start stacking everything... all guys become volcanos... just rushing red numbers out of their head... only really good spellstorm mage win me in dps... and i'm 14.5 k gs not even 15...
so i think that MoF as it's a DoT and not an entire DPS i really made an awesome build ^^ just can make one change the FtF feat ok
bye the way... chemboy... i think your build is better on buffing teammates and breaking defence.. however.. must think that wehn doing icewind and all the rest pve need mix dps and cc... try it out trust me... but.. with the lightning.. max power... armor pen at 2.1k max...
If I wasn't messing around with a new IWD open-world SS spec, I'd love to go toe-to-toe with you in a dungeon. Myself, Chemboy and Spacejew spent weeks exhaustively testing a bunch of different aspects of the MoF (complete with parses and actually numbers). We have a pretty good idea how things work.
And it's not that DE is a terrible feat. It's the opportunity cost of what you COULD have taken instead. Do us a favor. Tonight, run around IWD doing all your HE's while parsing your build, and then post that parse here. We'll point out a few things for you, and maybe you'll see what we're talking about.
No it won't,
Not a single CW managed to outdamage me in any skirmish yesterday. And this is IWD so we're all geared...
And that's Spellstorms we're talking about. You guys obviously did not account for a great many things.
While I will certainly not knock your builds...
For you to sit there and with a straight face tell me... "you're doing it wrong"... is laughable.
You're basically sitting you're saying to me. .. yeah I know you're outdamaging all these spellstorms AND wiping up in HEs AND getting Paingiver... BUT you're wrong....
I don't want to hear it...
All I'm saying is that if you respec'd and dropped that feat, you wouldn't notice any difference in your performance, and in fact might notice an additional boost by incorporating 5 feat points where they're more beneficial.
You have two options as a class.
1) 25% chance to spread smolder to ONE target when you damage it (8 second CD).
or
2) 30% chance to spread smolder to 5/15/Unlimited number of targets (depending on the power) when you damage it (no CD).
Which do you take?
Either one or BOTH, It also depends on what else I want to slot that will exclude one or the other.
Because Neither one of them are an absolute guarantee only a percentage chance, having both of them togather is optimal, Secondly... how many people are damaging those targets... how many times are they actually being hit to proc it?
Is it ONCE for 30% CHANCE... or is it 25 times for 25% on each shot for a smoldered target out of each.
So how much am I REALLY spreading on one or the other.
There is more to this than meets the eye my friend and I do not believe you have looked into all factors involved.
The actual window of opportunity to spread smolder via DE is very small, and the resulting DPS boost from it is negligible since MoF's have such a wide variety of ways to reliably spread smolder quickly to entire groups of mobs. And people would argue that those 5 feat points could have been spent elsewhere to give a better boost to your overall DPS. Like in the case of the OP, those 5 points would better be spent in something like Malevolent Surge, to earn up to a 30% damage boost for killing mobs, which a CW does A LOT!
In theory yes... and I took this one originally... in place of Drifting Embers.
.... Until I discovered that I was not actually getting the kills for many of those Mobs when I was MoF. As a Spellstorm I was always getting the kills.... but not as an MoF. It turned out to be better in theory than in practice.
But that's your answer as to why I didn't take it, or rather removed it from my build when it was there prior.
His claims on how DE function's are clearly incorrect and this is easily tested to be a fact. The follow up insistence that he is right, when such is demonstrably not the case, is further proof of his childishness.
His build is what it looks like when you just reached 60 and made a ton of mistakes while leveling. It's not a build, it's an amalgam of what sounded good at the time.
Clearly Silverquick has never bothered to respec and fix all those mistakes and replace them with well-reasoned and thought through choices and on top of that he refuses to acknowledge this clearly obvious fact.
Do not under perform like him. There are already enough bad mages out there. Sadly, you can be a bad mage and still do pretty well. Again, my signature and it's accompanying link explain why.
Sadly, 'pretty well' is only in comparison with other classes. Among wizard's you'll be a joke.
Aren't you done flapping lip yet?
I've already gone out there and proven all I needed to... you're just a lot of talk and theory with little behind it other than that and crumbled under the pressure.
And you couldn't even walk the walk when it came time.
Do you believe Fanning The Flame can be kept up 100% of the time?
We're done here...
Once you've managed to earn my respect again we'll talk.
So you leave in a huff rather than admit you were mistaken.
About what I expected.
I totally have no clue what I'm doing... I'm just wild guessing... I'm just sooo incompetent with MoF.
Why did I totally not listen to all those MoFs that kept telling me "you're mistaken, do it my way".
Oh horrors, Spellstorms are just sooo powerful... us weak little MoFs need them nerfed.
You never had a clue how this thing worked in the first place did you?
You realized you're arguing with the few people who were very big advocates of the MoF when it launched, right? Have you checked out Chemboy's thread? We demonstrated that an equally geared and skilled MoF could keep pace (or even outdamage) a Spellstorm. We're the MoF choir here, buddy.
This isn't about Spellstorm vs. Master of the Flame. In my personal opinion, when you consider the ability to rapidly generate action points, the ease of targeting, and the ability to keep up consistent damage (and stacks of PF), I believe 100% the MoF is a superior paragon path to Spellstorm in a group setting.
You're having an argument with yourself. It's DE that's a less optimal feat, not the MoF path.
You know, unlike with Spacejew..... I actually like you,
But you of all people telling me that is funny, considering not just last week you were complaining about only being able to get 25 Black Ice "Troll Loot" while I was out there getting the full 150 Black Ice rewards in these big Zerg fests in the HEs.
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?670241-Epic-encounters-troll-loot&highlight=Troll+Loot
Obviously its not as "less optimal" as it appears on the surface. There's more to this one than meets the eye.
Here's my experience, now that I have my Second Wizzie onto the MoF Paragon and using MoF pawers:
I love playing Wizard (well, all of them except GF). When new MoF was introduced, I played it on Preview - I didn't like it , it was too weak, it didn't do the damage Spellstorm did, I was used as a floor mop by mobs. BUT, I didn't understand the differences: Spellstorm being instaDPS and MoF being Fire-and-Forget (paraphrasing here, obviously). I am a casual player, not a min-maxer.
Then along comes this thread (earlier-on BEFORE the silly arguments) and I finally was able to understand the differences, thank you to those who explained it in plain language for simpletons like myself.
Now I am LOVING MoF Paragon and it feel more powerful than Spellstorm in this way: MoF seems to have some great AOE Damage that feels stronger (Fanning the Flame on Mastery, for example) - whereas with Spellstorm the AOE stuff only seems to be 'freezing" them in-place or pushing them away. yes, I know those also deal damage, but with FtF it seems more is put into the DPS than splitting (sharing) the DPS with Control.
I am totally enjoying the MoF paragon and if I create a third Wizard (getting tired of waiting for another class) I'll definitely go with MoF. In fact, playing this paragon on my Wizard has even caused me to reevaluate a few of the powers on Devoted Cleric, specifically the At-Will called "Brand of the Sun" that also sets the target on fire with a DoT - and I'm loving it!
Look, you guys can argue back-and-forth over which power is this or that and whatnot. However, speaking strictly from the "fun" perspective: Master of Flame rocks hard. Too bad a lot of other casual players aren't seeing this (from what I can tell, anyway).
Having got a better crit score and having read this thread I thought I'd play around with different powers. Two nights ago I slotted Icy Terrain alongside Steal Time which I carry anyway. Boy, what a difference. The ease with which you can spread smoulder using IT, ST, and OF (which is up a LOT) does seem to make DE redundant. My next respec will be used to replace it with something else. And I'm killing stuff MUCH faster.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Well, for the record... I actually tried that too, just did not work for me, and why I finally just removed Icy Terrain from my build entirely could not get any use out of it.
I even tried the CoI on tab to combine the Chill Stacks.... but then I did not get full use out of FtF, as it was only single target at that point.
While the OF being up quite a lot is nice, the problem I had was Icewind Dale mobs being too mobile for Icy Terrain, you really need a tight compact area for this one to be of use. And they'd kill you too fast to allow them to get or stay close enough, so you'd have to teleport across it, and they'd be on top of you again. Then you'd have enough time for maybe a spell or two before you had to teleport again.
And they just weren't going down any faster. I had hopes for it with the Corrupted Bears but it just did not work well for me there either. I had the idea to Smolder them for Rimfire, but could not keep them on the Ice Patch for very long.
In practicality, it seemed nice in theory... but didn't pan out in reality.