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Thoughts on the direction of NW [from an RPG geezer]
thirstius
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 60 Arc User
I just finished reading the thread "Gloves Drop".
It prompted me to start writing a reply there, but I quickly found myself reflecting on the broader topic of what I personally enjoy in RPG play and what I'd like to see added to Neverwinter, assuming that the MMORPG engine being used could support it.
[TL; DR -- NW izz cul! Mor plz! -- you may leave now]
Icewind Dale is more entertaining, so far, than previous campaigns. I'm enjoying the greater challenges, not all of which require the typical solution of trying to overwhelm every encounter with the biggest and baddest class build(s). Refreshingly, it appears that more thought, learning and strategy are required here.
For instance, it might take a new approach to solve certain problems. A case in point from the indicated thread, regarding "Glove Drop" rates: many of the complaints appear to be coming from those with heavily geared characters. On the off chance the mechanic here for drops weighs against uber-builds, why not try down-gearing to a more average level and give it a go? This isn't hardcore, after all, you can try whatever you want ad-nauseam.
Speaking of hardcore, this somewhat reminds me of the classic TSR module known as "Tomb of Horrors". It was written for and used at 1975's Origins 1 convention. Gygax wrote it specifically to challenge self-proclaimed D&D experts who would brag about being able to beat anything. It was a novel adventure full of deadly traps and critters, requiring carefully coordinated probing and cooperation. Even so, most characters died their first time playing the module -- and dying meant "dead" in those days, unless your body was still around to be resurrected -- and that wasn't easy or cheap or even possible much of the time.
"Tomb of Horrors" is considered one of the best adventure modules ever written, and was influential in the design of the original Icewind Dale computer game. I thoroughly enjoyed running the module as part of my own D&D campaign -- though I had my players use the included pre-rolled characters instead of their own so they wouldn't be too upset when the inevitable happened, lol.
That's another part of classic D&D that is lost in MMORPG's -- the whims and whimsy of the Dungeon Master. It takes a fair amount of planning, insight and empathy with your players/characters to keep them engaged, challenged and entertained all at the same time. The DM often needs to adapt to the needs of the moment by improvising and going off-script. It also helps if you can do "voices" and "special effects" well :-)
With NW, the producers/developers are the DM as reflected in the game's code. It's a great example of creating a visually immersive form of D&D that has engaging pace and action. But it's missing some things I've enjoyed in other graphical games. I don't expect an MMORPG to be able to do all of them at once, at least not until we have fast enough processors, graphics cards and Internet connections to support them, but adding a few of these might help:
1) more directional surround sound effects (nothing like hearing footsteps coming up behind you)
2) grittier environment elements (everything is too clean and pretty)
3) variable weather and/or time of day (we know you can show PE at night ... more please!)
4) increased object interaction (currently you can affect or interact with very little -- I want to break things, lol)
5) greater randomization of item/object/chest/mob types and locations (anything would be an improvement -- everything is always exactly the same and in the same location (with a few exceptions) -- THAT is what gets mind-numbing after repeated plays)
6) speaking of random, how about some random environment layouts, perhaps the campaign daily's or others that get lots of replay?
7) interaction with companions, including dialog and AI management (again, anything here would be an improvement)
8) more movement actions, such as grappling, climbing, crouching, horse-mounting (the normal way -- that would be cool!), or something as simple as drinking from a waterskin, or sheathing/unsheathing a weapon
9) tavern, inn and vendor interactions -- I'd love to order an ale and some food, then sit down and look like I'm enjoying it while I'm actually working on Profession assignments or Refining; or perhaps rent a room in an Inn to take a snooze while doing those things; anything but just standing around like a zombie waiting for fresh meat to walk by -- and why can't more vendors be in shops? all of these things would add to immersion...
10) more insects and wildlife -- the places that have them now definitely feel more normal
11) option to disable sparklies for quest objects and nodes
12) finally, how about selectable gore effects? some of us prefer to face the impact of our violence and find it vastly more immersive, not to mention making you think whether splatting everything you see is the best approach
If I had to pick just one, it would be number 5. I can't emphasize enough how much the repetitiveness affects playability and interest (or lack thereof).
I'm still having fun, mind you, but if another RPG comes along that includes more of the above, I might have to split my time -- or figure out how to clone myself, lol ;-)
Thanks for letting me pontificate.
~~thirstius~~
It prompted me to start writing a reply there, but I quickly found myself reflecting on the broader topic of what I personally enjoy in RPG play and what I'd like to see added to Neverwinter, assuming that the MMORPG engine being used could support it.
[TL; DR -- NW izz cul! Mor plz! -- you may leave now]
Icewind Dale is more entertaining, so far, than previous campaigns. I'm enjoying the greater challenges, not all of which require the typical solution of trying to overwhelm every encounter with the biggest and baddest class build(s). Refreshingly, it appears that more thought, learning and strategy are required here.
For instance, it might take a new approach to solve certain problems. A case in point from the indicated thread, regarding "Glove Drop" rates: many of the complaints appear to be coming from those with heavily geared characters. On the off chance the mechanic here for drops weighs against uber-builds, why not try down-gearing to a more average level and give it a go? This isn't hardcore, after all, you can try whatever you want ad-nauseam.
Speaking of hardcore, this somewhat reminds me of the classic TSR module known as "Tomb of Horrors". It was written for and used at 1975's Origins 1 convention. Gygax wrote it specifically to challenge self-proclaimed D&D experts who would brag about being able to beat anything. It was a novel adventure full of deadly traps and critters, requiring carefully coordinated probing and cooperation. Even so, most characters died their first time playing the module -- and dying meant "dead" in those days, unless your body was still around to be resurrected -- and that wasn't easy or cheap or even possible much of the time.
"Tomb of Horrors" is considered one of the best adventure modules ever written, and was influential in the design of the original Icewind Dale computer game. I thoroughly enjoyed running the module as part of my own D&D campaign -- though I had my players use the included pre-rolled characters instead of their own so they wouldn't be too upset when the inevitable happened, lol.
That's another part of classic D&D that is lost in MMORPG's -- the whims and whimsy of the Dungeon Master. It takes a fair amount of planning, insight and empathy with your players/characters to keep them engaged, challenged and entertained all at the same time. The DM often needs to adapt to the needs of the moment by improvising and going off-script. It also helps if you can do "voices" and "special effects" well :-)
With NW, the producers/developers are the DM as reflected in the game's code. It's a great example of creating a visually immersive form of D&D that has engaging pace and action. But it's missing some things I've enjoyed in other graphical games. I don't expect an MMORPG to be able to do all of them at once, at least not until we have fast enough processors, graphics cards and Internet connections to support them, but adding a few of these might help:
1) more directional surround sound effects (nothing like hearing footsteps coming up behind you)
2) grittier environment elements (everything is too clean and pretty)
3) variable weather and/or time of day (we know you can show PE at night ... more please!)
4) increased object interaction (currently you can affect or interact with very little -- I want to break things, lol)
5) greater randomization of item/object/chest/mob types and locations (anything would be an improvement -- everything is always exactly the same and in the same location (with a few exceptions) -- THAT is what gets mind-numbing after repeated plays)
6) speaking of random, how about some random environment layouts, perhaps the campaign daily's or others that get lots of replay?
7) interaction with companions, including dialog and AI management (again, anything here would be an improvement)
8) more movement actions, such as grappling, climbing, crouching, horse-mounting (the normal way -- that would be cool!), or something as simple as drinking from a waterskin, or sheathing/unsheathing a weapon
9) tavern, inn and vendor interactions -- I'd love to order an ale and some food, then sit down and look like I'm enjoying it while I'm actually working on Profession assignments or Refining; or perhaps rent a room in an Inn to take a snooze while doing those things; anything but just standing around like a zombie waiting for fresh meat to walk by -- and why can't more vendors be in shops? all of these things would add to immersion...
10) more insects and wildlife -- the places that have them now definitely feel more normal
11) option to disable sparklies for quest objects and nodes
12) finally, how about selectable gore effects? some of us prefer to face the impact of our violence and find it vastly more immersive, not to mention making you think whether splatting everything you see is the best approach
If I had to pick just one, it would be number 5. I can't emphasize enough how much the repetitiveness affects playability and interest (or lack thereof).
I'm still having fun, mind you, but if another RPG comes along that includes more of the above, I might have to split my time -- or figure out how to clone myself, lol ;-)
Thanks for letting me pontificate.
~~thirstius~~
Post edited by thirstius on
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I really hope that Module 4 will bring something great to this game,
Also I would like to see some "Deadly Traps"...traps that kill people instantly.
Thank you
He means making it possible to turn off the glitter on interactive objects so you have to look harder for them.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
What we need is content that consists of more than "deal lots of damage as fast as possible" in order to be successful. I also see many issues where melee characters are severely disadvantaged - for instance, my GF suffers a lot when fighting Remorhaz's - with how quickly their fire patches destroy his guard meter and his lack of a dodge/run ability. Similarly, the Yetis and Bear Riders, with their long charge attacks, mean I have to run after them constantly.
Why aren't there enemies with very weak melee attacks and extremely powerful ranged attacks, who only use said long range attacks when you are at a distance? Why aren't there enemies that are more vulnerable to melee CC but resistant to ranged?
It just bugs me that I like playing my GF, but am consistently in the lower bracket of HE scoring, even though it "costs" me more in terms of potions, time, and possibly even injury kits.
Don't get me wrong - I love the new content, but at least the gap in performance in Feywild or Dread Ring weren't as noticeable as it is in IWD.
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
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Way to go thirstius (say no if they want to employ you
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I'm in full support of you OP.
In reality it was just a character killer module where you had to guess just to get it right. The entry point alone required you to hit all the stones in the correct order or it would teleport you, remove all your clothing and equipment into an empty drop of 100 ft, in a room with no way out other than at the ceiling area where there was a secret door you could never hope to reach without equipment.
Luckily the first time I ever played, I had once drawn from a deck of many things an gotten the "avoid any situation" once card. So I was able to get a do over on that one.
The rest of the dungeon was pretty much the same all the way through. And the Demi-Lich was actually nastier as it was an insta kill with no saving throw that would suck your soul out.
The only way you could destroy a demi lich back then was by going Ethereal and using a Power Word Kill on it.
The original tomb of horrors really wasn't about working togather, it was more about just getting lucky the first time or you die, usually horribly.
Well said! Agree 100%
'nuffsaid.
Also, on the same boat. I'd love if we could actualy SWIM! I know it sound silly to many but I love swimming in games, it's relaxing! And I hope they keep making the new maps much more open like the icewind ones.
In the past year of play, I've only seen "night" in PE TWICE?!
Come on you guys, the graphics are amazing in this game, so why not let everyone enjoy them a little more often?
Why do you torment us by not sharing such amazingly beautiful things that you have?
Also: weather? heck yeah!