Cept one problem, there isn't enough of you over geared perfect enchant wielding people online at the same time to queue against each other, if there were then when the ELO system came on the queues wouldn't' have taken 1+ hours to pop.
As many die hard PVP people there are they just don't make up a large portion of the population. The largest population is PVE F2P people that have worked their way through the game without spending money most likely (nothing wrong with that this is a F2P game, fremium or pay to win in other words) and just queue to have some fun or see what's domination all about. Those who don't' have enchants at all or even gotten a single artifact (that truly does baffle me how that happens) tend to have decent matches against each other, the balance is there are enough hardcore PVP people out there that pull these groups.
At least there was a poll started for premade v premade only so hopefully that will spawn a separate queue option and see how it goes.
First of all, as far as I know, colonel is not geared out with perfects. The gaps in ability and gs are massive along each "bracket". 11k is godly vs 7k, 15k godly vs 11k and 18k with perfect armor and weapon are godly to 15k without. I would think the people between 11k and 18k are significant, maybe the majority.
You must be an overgeared pay 2 win person otherwise you'd know that take away rewards and people wont' queue up for pvp and if you think its bad now wait til you get an itch to do some pvp and the queue never pops EVER!
Someone else pointed out that rewards is how people get better, take away the reward for losing and how do you expect people to get gear. You do realize part of the issue is the growing problem of gear to win that is the current PVP motif. If you don't have gear (hence the complaint about low GS people) you can't win and if you can't ever win how are you expecting people to get what they need to win?
If you think your leet skills are truly that good, then strip down naked and fight with nothing on and use only your characters powers and see how that goes.
In fact why the PVP community is always so insistant on gear ... PVP is about skill not freaking gear, shut up about low GS people and start voting for changes that remove gear from PVP force players to rely on what skills/powers they have and duke it out without any enchancement. Rewards would be AD for the PVE portion of the game and really awesome cosmetic stuff to make you stand out and show off your status as an awesome PVP player. Technically everyone would be happy in that scenario as PVP players won't have to dole out actual money to buy anything and they can truly claim to be of leet skill and not because they are cash cows to PWE/Cryptic (who would undoubtedly be the only ones crying about how that is unfair cause they paid to win didn't want to use skill to win at all).
By the way I know there are people of amazing skill and those in great gear vs. others in great gear will show skill as that is probably a balanced playing field however a lot of people (we are talking the 90+% who don't have maxed characters) just don't play enough to either grind up to that level, don't play long enough to eventually get there, or just can't invest money to help speed that process up. The high end pvp community is really more of a minority than they think otherwise the random people with low GS getting pulled into matches would be a lot less of an issue.
I again as always suggest the removing of gear and its effects from pvp, enchants and everything, keep tenacity and if you must keep the glory system as a reward then make it so that to make matches easier after wining a lot (and that is all gear based versions is) then make it so that glory "buys" tenacity upgrades. You start at 10% and if you want 11% for an edge you spend x amount of glory. Cap it at say 20 - 25% to prevent severe imbalancing and then do the same for things like movement speed (which is primarily only used for pvp as most pve people don't want to waste points in that stat except for use in a utility slot).
For appearance sake gear keeps its visuals, so you are still looking like you are wearing armor and wielding a sword, hammer, etc., however you just don't get the benefit from it just like companions don't help you in PVP domination.
I can't help to think how much fun pvp would be and how different the leader boards would look if this was implemented. I think it should be put on a test server to see how it works. It should not be hard to disable bonuses from gear inside a PVP instance since companions are easily disabled.
On a side note, I just wonder why doesn't leveling increase stats by itself? It doesn't have to do it a lot but a little for each level, as it is now the only thing modifying stats is what gear you have. The only thing seemingly level dependent is I think damage (the formula takes level into account?) and hit points. Which I have to wonder why are hit points the same across classes? It seems without gear buffs it seems to me every class has the same hit points at the same level or at least so close to it that its hardly noticeable. I think my GF fresh 60 had just about the same HP as my fresh 60 CW with only feats being the determining factor in difference in HP as my GF I think had 9% extra HP and my CW either had none or 6%.
Any thoughts on that? I'd really like to see what the PVP community thinks about these ideas and statements?
The only reason for a gs requirement is because it represents the commitment a player has made to his character. Some people cannot afford to buy zen for ad for the better gearz, and do not have the time to grind it all out. But they are still committed. They have an understanding of pvp and a desire to win. They will die on node and run right back to the same node. They do not run away from fights, do not care about their place on the score board and are playing to win. That is the big thing. But they are really a very small minority of low gs players. Most low gs players care about as much for winning pvp as they do about their characters. They have been immersed in the story and have been told how great they are by Sgt Knox and the other NPCs the whole game and suddenly they are in pvp at 60 with their lvl 0 shirt and pants, rank 3 enchants, all green gear and running away from fights while running towards nodes that are filling blue with no enemies on them.
Any commitment to your character will result in an easy 10k at lvl 60. You see someone with 7k and you know they just dont care.
PanzerJäger HR Hybrid Jugger Conq GF
....
0
hexanna22Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 204Bounty Hunter
edited May 2014
I just pugged most of my way to the Domination 100 wins cuz I am sick...
But, I finally figured out why the system was more broken than ever....I had a 6K GWF and CW in one group, but they both had the Dominator's Pendant--because the did really well at pre 60 pvp.
Their ELO should be cut in half or something when they hit 60, I think that is why us 15-18 K GS people who pvp a lot and have a good ELO are getting these 6 and 7 K people, they have a high ELO as well.
P.S. Tho a tutorial would be good, many of these people run away, even the well geared people, because they don't want to mess up their K/D ratio on the leaderboard.
I just pugged most of my way to the Domination 100 wins cuz I am sick...
But, I finally figured out why the system was more broken than ever....I had a 6K GWF and CW in one group, but they both had the Dominator's Pendant--because the did really well at pre 60 pvp.
Their ELO should be cut in half or something when they hit 60, I think that is why us 15-18 K GS people who pvp a lot and have a good ELO are getting these 6 and 7 K people, they have a high ELO as well.
P.S. Tho a tutorial would be good, many of these people run away, even the well geared people, because they don't want to mess up their K/D ratio on the leaderboard.
I would not be against just eliminating the k/d ratio from the leaderboard. To me, a 'good' kill/death ratio means the person doesn't try hard enough to make their team win. I also am pretty sure that every ten levels a persons elo rank is reset, so fresh level 60's should not ever be put with or against anyone who has pvpd at lvl 60 for a month or so.
I would say the requirements could start at level 60. Aside from that, afk penalties. Can't q for pvp or anything, account wide, if you get hit with a penalty. Winning has to be the only thing that matters or people will choose to not win and instead do what matters. Like just show up and not do anything to win.
So people who don't win find their gear frozen when they hit 60? How are they supposed to get better? It's just not workable.
More drastic penalties will result in fewer people who play PvP at all. Longer queue times, less money in the game. I very much doubt Cryptic will be up for that.
I would not be against just eliminating the k/d ratio from the leaderboard. To me, a 'good' kill/death ratio means the person doesn't try hard enough to make their team win.
Yes, 1 million times yes, for a hundred years yes. the K/D on the board is why people don't play the domination game type correctly.
I see allies and enemies running away from a node because they don't want to die. I also see people somehow having soulforge proc 4 times in a row. And rangers healing through 4 peoples damage easier than a DC can while killing at least one of them. And the mighty 4 horsemen riding in to collect the kill and 300 points I have earned for our team, while i usually end up dying because I am always fighting at least 2 or 3 people. It's like they think it will hurt in real life if they die or something, it is absurd. You are a warrior, you are berserking - you know what shouldn't be allowed running away. A berserker going berserk doesn't go berserk so he can safely run away. They need a enemy within certain radius requirement for Unstoppable or it depletes much much more rapidly than it would while being in actual combat.
I am pointing out that it is the K/D on the leader board that is causing the current pvp climate. It used to be a lot of fun and people were nice, except a few guilds that don't exist anymore - the original NW pvp elitists when tenebrous enchants were everywhere on everyone and super op. They wouldn't admit they were OP back then just as current pvp greats won't admit that their builds are super easy mode and the success is contributed mostly to the gear and overall OPness of certain builds with said gear.
I just got some friends in to the game and they got 60, we love pvping and since I've had some 60s for a good long while I know what to expect, but for a new player it almost immediately makes them just not want to play the game at all, PVE or PVP. If anyone plays a game to enjoy pvp and they step into 60 without realizing what it is like, they will most assuredly say well "That was fun while it lasted" and move on to another game. I could see that look come over his face after our first few 60 matches. I am helping him gear up because it is a great game. He only has a 9k GS but he is most always in the top 5 for score because he stands on points and caps points, he knows how to play the game type and does it well. Chases people off the point and return to the point, doesn't follow them all over for a kill and doesn't run off the point to try and live. Don't go to a point that is being capped that has no enemy on it. If there is red growing on a blue point go there, but if you show up and there are already enough team mates( allie>= enemy) there handling it, you leave and go to where you feel you are needed most.
It's good to make money, but for the PVP aspect you need to spend a real good big old hunka cash to even start competing. If you don't then, by the time you can grind out artifacts and enchants sans money (good luck with coal wards) everyone who you are trying to catch up to will have already moved on to the upper level items and beyond. And even though your gear is better, it will still be considered not good enough or too low and you shouldn't pvp or wont be allowed in the group for the dungeon you so desperately want to do.
I have seen it said in PVP zone chat to lower geared people that they "ruin this game". I also hear about people not being accepted to a dungeon even though they have the min GS because it just isn't good enough, and parties being taken over through kick votes.
Pretty sure it will be the elitists who put the last knife in to the very pvp that they love. I know we have all experienced really nice top end pvper players. But usually it is some inexplicably angry and emotionally disturbed person that is trying to prove something to everyone or possibly themselves. They are also the reason that everyone uses the same builds ALL THE TIME, and assume anything else is horrible.
Do you know what a MMORPG is when all of these people that don't want to put up with this is called? Abandoned, Dead, Ghost Town, Husk, and eventually "Man I remember that game, I wish it was still around"*think DAoC or WarHammer* but enjoy the wasteland you will create by all means. At least you guys will finally get even matches, which will probably make the ones of you that don't have any actual skill quit - because a fair fight isn't fair if you can't win it with your shinies. And the hard core PvErs can super speed race through the content with the easy group set up of the people with the greatest gear , and eventually get to the point of "This game doesn't have anything to do" and quit. That is just a proven truth of gamers, it happens all the time to every game. They will come back at some point, maybe - it depends if they have clung on to a new game or not.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] PVPer rocking it Solo queue style since the dawn of Neverwinter
How can this be hard to understand? Does gear make a difference? Yes it does ofc.
Can u contribute to a win without uber gear? Yes, u can!
Hell, anybody remember the times when bots were swarming around in pvp? Actually, these bots were better than some players. It was so sad to see and realize this. At least a bot runs always to mid and caps or blocks the point.
How often Inhave to write this? YOU DONT NEED CASH OR UBER AMOUNTS OF AD TO COMPETE!!!11oneoneoneeleven
I have nothing against a player with 9k vs who has blues with nice hps and tenacity. Nothing against people with r5s and no armor enchantments if their low gear reflects some ambition and thinking he has put in.
But most of the time, the quality of gear reflects the quality of the ambition and overall play style. I have NEVER seen a player with green mainhand and greyshirt who was anything than utterly bad.
Btw. If I see 15k gs cws or gwfs with 22k hp, its the same. They have the gear but no understanding of stat allocation.
I dont want people to have uber gear. I want people on my team with a brain!
I agree with Panzer, just want people with some smarts on my team.
On that note, Pantamime, if your low gs buddies want someone else to PvP with...hit me up in game. @pherrow
Low gs or not, if they do the things that need to be done, I'll take em.
-can't add more to the topic right now...hate posting from my phone.
So people who don't win find their gear frozen when they hit 60? How are they supposed to get better? It's just not workable.
More drastic penalties will result in fewer people who play PvP at all. Longer queue times, less money in the game. I very much doubt Cryptic will be up for that.
Not frozen, you can use the glory you earned up to that point. You just dont get more if you dont win. Only winning or TRYING to win should have an incentive.
Not frozen, you can use the glory you earned up to that point. You just dont get more if you dont win. Only winning or TRYING to win should have an incentive.
From memory you earn very little glory in pre-60 PvP. If you didn't spend any of it while levelling then you MIGHT scrape together enough for a set of PvP blues. And then you're stuck. At the whim of matchmaking and the gods of PuG, with no way to improve your gear unless you're lucky enough to be teamed into a high GS PuG or two.
Sounds like a great way to reduce the number of players in PvP.
I seriously doubt that the pitiful amount of glory handed out to the losing team under the present system is seen as any kind of reward for failure in any case.
From memory you earn very little glory in pre-60 PvP. If you didn't spend any of it while levelling then you MIGHT scrape together enough for a set of PvP blues. And then you're stuck. At the whim of matchmaking and the gods of PuG, with no way to improve your gear unless you're lucky enough to be teamed into a high GS PuG or two.
Sounds like a great way to reduce the number of players in PvP.
I seriously doubt that the pitiful amount of glory handed out to the losing team under the present system is seen as any kind of reward for failure in any case.
Nothing is going to reduce the numbers of pvp more than the current situation and absolutely nothing being done about it. It is not even acknowledged by the devs.
No matter what is brought up, how many people say something, the conclusion for anyone who actually cares is always the same: "just quit playing this game".
Nothing is going to reduce the numbers of pvp more than the current situation and absolutely nothing being done about it. It is not even acknowledged by the devs.
No matter what is brought up, how many people say something, the conclusion for anyone who actually cares is always the same: "just quit playing this game".
I'm not suggesting that nothing should be done to improve PvP. Far from it - IMO it's pretty broken right now. I was just pointing out the problem with only awarding wins when the only way to get better is to gear up. Personally I prefer your other ideas around league ladders as I'm a fan of addressing root causes rather than symptoms.
I'm not suggesting that nothing should be done to improve PvP. Far from it - IMO it's pretty broken right now. I was just pointing out the problem with only awarding wins when the only way to get better is to gear up. Personally I prefer your other ideas around league ladders as I'm a fan of addressing root causes rather than symptoms.
I know your not suggesting that It seems like a really extreme situation and will require extreme measures. Pumping the incentives for winning into the upper atmosphere while leaving losing awards about the same or a little less could help. Leaderboard and match scoring needs fixed severely and immediately. Kills need awarded to the one who has done the most damage to the killed character, mega point need awarded for dying defending a node, and that should be multiplied for each x1 the ratio is against you 1v2 would be 2x, 1v3 3x, so on. Capping a node without having fought in the last 10 seconds should not be rewarded at all. So on. It just really seems like Cryptic is saying, "the current state of pvp is how we want pvp in Neverwinter to be, you don't like it? Too bad. Go play somewhere else."
Comments
First of all, as far as I know, colonel is not geared out with perfects. The gaps in ability and gs are massive along each "bracket". 11k is godly vs 7k, 15k godly vs 11k and 18k with perfect armor and weapon are godly to 15k without. I would think the people between 11k and 18k are significant, maybe the majority.
Otherwise I think your point stands.
Jugger Conq GF
....
The only reason for a gs requirement is because it represents the commitment a player has made to his character. Some people cannot afford to buy zen for ad for the better gearz, and do not have the time to grind it all out. But they are still committed. They have an understanding of pvp and a desire to win. They will die on node and run right back to the same node. They do not run away from fights, do not care about their place on the score board and are playing to win. That is the big thing. But they are really a very small minority of low gs players. Most low gs players care about as much for winning pvp as they do about their characters. They have been immersed in the story and have been told how great they are by Sgt Knox and the other NPCs the whole game and suddenly they are in pvp at 60 with their lvl 0 shirt and pants, rank 3 enchants, all green gear and running away from fights while running towards nodes that are filling blue with no enemies on them.
Any commitment to your character will result in an easy 10k at lvl 60. You see someone with 7k and you know they just dont care.
Jugger Conq GF
....
But, I finally figured out why the system was more broken than ever....I had a 6K GWF and CW in one group, but they both had the Dominator's Pendant--because the did really well at pre 60 pvp.
Their ELO should be cut in half or something when they hit 60, I think that is why us 15-18 K GS people who pvp a lot and have a good ELO are getting these 6 and 7 K people, they have a high ELO as well.
P.S. Tho a tutorial would be good, many of these people run away, even the well geared people, because they don't want to mess up their K/D ratio on the leaderboard.
I would not be against just eliminating the k/d ratio from the leaderboard. To me, a 'good' kill/death ratio means the person doesn't try hard enough to make their team win. I also am pretty sure that every ten levels a persons elo rank is reset, so fresh level 60's should not ever be put with or against anyone who has pvpd at lvl 60 for a month or so.
Jugger Conq GF
....
More drastic penalties will result in fewer people who play PvP at all. Longer queue times, less money in the game. I very much doubt Cryptic will be up for that.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Yes, 1 million times yes, for a hundred years yes. the K/D on the board is why people don't play the domination game type correctly.
I see allies and enemies running away from a node because they don't want to die. I also see people somehow having soulforge proc 4 times in a row. And rangers healing through 4 peoples damage easier than a DC can while killing at least one of them. And the mighty 4 horsemen riding in to collect the kill and 300 points I have earned for our team, while i usually end up dying because I am always fighting at least 2 or 3 people. It's like they think it will hurt in real life if they die or something, it is absurd. You are a warrior, you are berserking - you know what shouldn't be allowed running away. A berserker going berserk doesn't go berserk so he can safely run away. They need a enemy within certain radius requirement for Unstoppable or it depletes much much more rapidly than it would while being in actual combat.
I am pointing out that it is the K/D on the leader board that is causing the current pvp climate. It used to be a lot of fun and people were nice, except a few guilds that don't exist anymore - the original NW pvp elitists when tenebrous enchants were everywhere on everyone and super op. They wouldn't admit they were OP back then just as current pvp greats won't admit that their builds are super easy mode and the success is contributed mostly to the gear and overall OPness of certain builds with said gear.
I just got some friends in to the game and they got 60, we love pvping and since I've had some 60s for a good long while I know what to expect, but for a new player it almost immediately makes them just not want to play the game at all, PVE or PVP. If anyone plays a game to enjoy pvp and they step into 60 without realizing what it is like, they will most assuredly say well "That was fun while it lasted" and move on to another game. I could see that look come over his face after our first few 60 matches. I am helping him gear up because it is a great game. He only has a 9k GS but he is most always in the top 5 for score because he stands on points and caps points, he knows how to play the game type and does it well. Chases people off the point and return to the point, doesn't follow them all over for a kill and doesn't run off the point to try and live. Don't go to a point that is being capped that has no enemy on it. If there is red growing on a blue point go there, but if you show up and there are already enough team mates( allie>= enemy) there handling it, you leave and go to where you feel you are needed most.
It's good to make money, but for the PVP aspect you need to spend a real good big old hunka cash to even start competing. If you don't then, by the time you can grind out artifacts and enchants sans money (good luck with coal wards) everyone who you are trying to catch up to will have already moved on to the upper level items and beyond. And even though your gear is better, it will still be considered not good enough or too low and you shouldn't pvp or wont be allowed in the group for the dungeon you so desperately want to do.
I have seen it said in PVP zone chat to lower geared people that they "ruin this game". I also hear about people not being accepted to a dungeon even though they have the min GS because it just isn't good enough, and parties being taken over through kick votes.
Pretty sure it will be the elitists who put the last knife in to the very pvp that they love. I know we have all experienced really nice top end pvper players. But usually it is some inexplicably angry and emotionally disturbed person that is trying to prove something to everyone or possibly themselves. They are also the reason that everyone uses the same builds ALL THE TIME, and assume anything else is horrible.
Do you know what a MMORPG is when all of these people that don't want to put up with this is called? Abandoned, Dead, Ghost Town, Husk, and eventually "Man I remember that game, I wish it was still around"*think DAoC or WarHammer* but enjoy the wasteland you will create by all means. At least you guys will finally get even matches, which will probably make the ones of you that don't have any actual skill quit - because a fair fight isn't fair if you can't win it with your shinies. And the hard core PvErs can super speed race through the content with the easy group set up of the people with the greatest gear , and eventually get to the point of "This game doesn't have anything to do" and quit. That is just a proven truth of gamers, it happens all the time to every game. They will come back at some point, maybe - it depends if they have clung on to a new game or not.
PVPer rocking it Solo queue style since the dawn of Neverwinter
Can u contribute to a win without uber gear? Yes, u can!
Hell, anybody remember the times when bots were swarming around in pvp? Actually, these bots were better than some players. It was so sad to see and realize this. At least a bot runs always to mid and caps or blocks the point.
How often Inhave to write this? YOU DONT NEED CASH OR UBER AMOUNTS OF AD TO COMPETE!!!11oneoneoneeleven
I have nothing against a player with 9k vs who has blues with nice hps and tenacity. Nothing against people with r5s and no armor enchantments if their low gear reflects some ambition and thinking he has put in.
But most of the time, the quality of gear reflects the quality of the ambition and overall play style. I have NEVER seen a player with green mainhand and greyshirt who was anything than utterly bad.
Btw. If I see 15k gs cws or gwfs with 22k hp, its the same. They have the gear but no understanding of stat allocation.
I dont want people to have uber gear. I want people on my team with a brain!
On that note, Pantamime, if your low gs buddies want someone else to PvP with...hit me up in game. @pherrow
Low gs or not, if they do the things that need to be done, I'll take em.
-can't add more to the topic right now...hate posting from my phone.
Not frozen, you can use the glory you earned up to that point. You just dont get more if you dont win. Only winning or TRYING to win should have an incentive.
Jugger Conq GF
....
Sounds like a great way to reduce the number of players in PvP.
I seriously doubt that the pitiful amount of glory handed out to the losing team under the present system is seen as any kind of reward for failure in any case.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Nothing is going to reduce the numbers of pvp more than the current situation and absolutely nothing being done about it. It is not even acknowledged by the devs.
No matter what is brought up, how many people say something, the conclusion for anyone who actually cares is always the same: "just quit playing this game".
Jugger Conq GF
....
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
I know your not suggesting that
Jugger Conq GF
....