You still fail to understand what I meant and it was that if the character keeps dying at the beginning, he will continue to die till the maximum level thus forcing you to spend a truck load of gold on potions and none of the skills you unlock will matter. Because you may have the strongest skills out there but if it takes just a single strike from a low level boss to reduce the character's hp in half, then this class is nothing else but useless, especially when you have to face much stronger bosses than the one I mentioned.
After you unlock unstoppable, that hit that takes away half your life will fill your determination bar completely, allowing you to activate Unstoppable and gain 50% additional Damage Resistance and more powerful attacks. Add some lifesteal to that and you'll be back at full health before Unstoppable wears off. On top of that, it wouldn't have been that much longer before your character would have had access to an encounter power that damages the enemy and heals you. Get rid of this idea that you know anything about the class when you gave up on it before it got its tab skill and decent powers. You think it would have gotten harder but the reverse is true.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
Silverquick: Yeah...but you also argue (at length) that Control Wizards don't have any more control than other classes, which suggests you're using some fairly oddly-tinted glasses.
Plus, if "every party you've ever been in with a GF has been a failure", then....well, the GF is not the only common factor, there.
In contrast, I've seen some great GFs while playing my CW, and my CW has never "had to learn to survive without GFs" because being a CW and killing all the things is almost effortless, no matter who else is in your party. A good tank just means you don't have to use the shift key quite as often.
Silverquick: Yeah...but you also argue (at length) that Control Wizards don't have any more control than other classes, which suggests you're using some fairly oddly-tinted glasses.
Plus, if "every party you've ever been in with a GF has been a failure", then....well, the GF is not the only common factor, there.
In contrast, I've seen some great GFs while playing my CW, and my CW has never "had to learn to survive without GFs" because being a CW and killing all the things is almost effortless, no matter who else is in your party. A good tank just means you don't have to use the shift key quite as often.
Well said.
If the party fails, then it simply isn't strong/skilled enough to four-man the instance. That's not really the GF's fault. The GF isn't actually needed anywhere- I've done plenty of FH with no healer and no GF- often with PUGs. As you pointed out earlier in the thread, taking a GF there is just convenience.
For any other PvE content, taking a GF is just a personal kindness. No-one needs one, some quite bad/inexperienced players might think that they do, but that's because they have preconceived notions from other MMOs with correctly functioning "holy trinity" mechanics, coupled with poor powers of observation. Even a TR would be more useful in PvE, and that's saying something.
ordensmarschall, imo GWFs are useless in a party despite the damage they can deal. Because that damage is nothing if they can't survive long enough to deal it. Even at level 9 the GWF is useless - the most common mobs dealt so much damage to me that I'd need a truckload of potions to survive long enough to kill 3 mobs.
I'm not quite sure what to say here ..
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
Silverquick: Yeah...but you also argue (at length) that Control Wizards don't have any more control than other classes, which suggests you're using some fairly oddly-tinted glasses.
Plus, if "every party you've ever been in with a GF has been a failure", then....well, the GF is not the only common factor, there.
In contrast, I've seen some great GFs while playing my CW, and my CW has never "had to learn to survive without GFs" because being a CW and killing all the things is almost effortless, no matter who else is in your party. A good tank just means you don't have to use the shift key quite as often.
Well we really don't.
But the FH grouping should demonstrate clearly its not our CC that sustains us as mages as those targets are immunte to that and Singularity. That was just wishful thinking. Our power was in our AoEs... not the CCs. Those we need to combine with each other or other classes to make them effective. AoEs we don't.
I also didn't say the parties were a failure I said their agro control was.... they can take a good solid hit and that was never the problem, well, except in Spider Queen. We did however end up carrying the GFs the majority of the time as the things we expected out of them do not materialize in those shoes.
Their usefulness would increase dramatically however.... if I did not have to teleport all over the field running for my life and soloing these things by myself...
I do not have to do that with a GWF party or a multi-CW party.
Fix the dungeons as much as you want, but until it actually becomes necessary to bring a DC and a GF, no one will. Thing is, if you control the adds long enough to burst them down, they don't hurt you. GWFs do massive damage, CWs do massive damage. If both are tanky enough to not be 1-shot, nothing else matters because they get 10% of their damage as constant health. The problem here is that Life Steal is an immediate heal. Problem is, there's pretty much nothing in this game that will 1-shot you unless it gives you a red circle to alert you that you're about to be hit and can safely dodge out of the way. So if both these massive damage dealers have innate healing, they'll just be hit by the non-red circle attacks from time to time and heal themselves back up before anything bad can happen. You don't need a cleric unless you intend to facetank everything. You don't need a guardian fighter because there's no adds that can't be controlled and would kill a CW or GWF before they have a chance to heal back. You nerf CW damage, and more GWFs will be needed. You nerf GWF damage, and more CWs will be needed. You nerf both classes damage, and more CWs will be needed. (shrug)
Problem is TANKINESS. In other words: Armor/+HP stats of CW, HR, TR, GWF, DC SHOULD NOT be comparable to a GF. Easy as that.
Halflingas The Great - Stormwarden HR(60)
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited May 2014
You don't need a cleric unless you intend to facetank everything.
Actually those ARE wanted in dungeons.
But not as much for healing at later levels, its their Buffs that shoot the damage of the CW/GWF team through the roof, something they cannot do without one.
Ergo... you will never find that kind of team refusing a cleric.
Problem is TANKINESS. In other words: Armor/+HP stats of CW, HR, TR, GWF, DC SHOULD NOT be comparable to a GF. Easy as that.
But there are other things that make you don't need a DC/GF, for example, if you have +1k Regen and +1k Life steal (and a Decent DPS/HP) you will heal yourself more than any DC could, and if you grab 2 CW (or more) then you won't need more mob control, the game is made to make us useless (or atleast not needed), isn't just that we don't have the enough HP/DR (to hold +15 foes), the thing is that there aren't Deadly/Fast CC Inmune Mobs that would make GF more desirable, the dungeons are made in a way that even a FULL party of CW can do it (something unthinkable in others MMO).
Silverquick: Yeah...but you also argue (at length) that Control Wizards don't have any more control than other classes, which suggests you're using some fairly oddly-tinted glasses.
Plus, if "every party you've ever been in with a GF has been a failure", then....well, the GF is not the only common factor, there.
In contrast, I've seen some great GFs while playing my CW, and my CW has never "had to learn to survive without GFs" because being a CW and killing all the things is almost effortless, no matter who else is in your party. A good tank just means you don't have to use the shift key quite as often.
^This. I've "carried" a GF in the party just as much as other classes have needed to be carried. Just cuz you've run into the bad ones does not mean they're all bad. You can't judge a class based on your own experiences with them, otherwise I can shun about 85% of the CW population... I end up running dungeons a lot where, if the CW in my party isn't me or one of my guild mates, they had to be carried throughout the dungeon/dropped.
People want speedy, fast, cheesy ways to finish dungeons, and CWs, and to a lesser extent, GWFs are the easiest classes to use. The mobs being cc'ed and aoe dps'ed leads to faster kills, so they want speed runs, allowing more drop chances over an actual challenge. Take away the ability to group up multiple CWs in a party, then see how easy they end up being. Like pvp, why make a rainbow party, when you can just stack the most OP classes in your team.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
My GF- formerly my primary, now my grandpa(: char- was today at Biggrins at Ivewind Dale. It was a pain in the best part..., the time needed to bring down 2 giants and the 3 wolves was sadly boring and painful to watch. I quickly deleted all the other quests for the day and decided to use my GF finally for AD making, Gauntlgrym and the daily PVP, but that only for the AD too, 'cause i hate all the perma TRs, who when they come at 2 or 3 at you, are major pain in the best part too.
When Mod 3 came out i thought, that it was another nail in the coffin of the GF, but now i'm pretty sure the Devs want to see this char dead and gone. He is on the best way to there, many of us old Gf players are slowly but surely abandoning him and newbies don't even roll a Gf, because they know, that it sucks...
The real honest man is honest from conviction of what is right, not from policy.
Robert E. Lee
I only believe in statistics that I doctored myself.
Winston Churchill
The human race is a herd. Here we are, unique, eternal aspects of consciousness with an infinity of potential, and we have allowed ourselves to become an unthinking, unquestioning blob of conformity and uniformity. A herd. Once we concede to the herd mentality, we can be controlled and directed by a tiny few. And we are.
David Icke
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited May 2014
The mobs being cc'ed and aoe dps'ed leads to faster kills, so they want speed runs, allowing more drop chances over an actual challenge.
Yeah... totally we all know its ALL about speed running. I was totally wrong GFs can tank like an SOB, and hold a good 20 mob agro nobody else can see it but YOU...
You're totally right man.
I suppose.... that's the attitude that invoked the.... "nerfs solve everything" ideas... Hey I'm just fine... its everyone ELSE thats overpowered and its all their fault so nerf them... which of course has solved every problem in the game hasn't it?
Maybe its time to admit... you really do have a problem.
Yeah... totally we all know its ALL about speed running. I was totally wrong GFs can tank like an SOB, and hold a good 20 mob agro nobody else can see it but YOU...
You're totally right man.
I suppose.... that's the attitude that invoked the.... "nerfs solve everything" ideas... Hey I'm just fine... its everyone ELSE thats overpowered and its all their fault so nerf them... which of course has solved every problem in the game hasn't it?
Maybe its time to admit... you really do have a problem.
I seriously lol'ed at your pathetic attempt to troll right here.
Anyone with ANY experience in this game knows that when it comes to pve, the OP class is the control wizard. It has been since beta.
As has been stated before: I've played ALL of my classes in both pve AND pvp. And both game types prefer the OP classes. I'm not a fan of it, but unlike you, I at least acknowledge it. It's people like YOU who cast judgement on some because of your bad experiences.
Also, I'm 1 of at least a few that have posted in here already about positive GF experiences. I think you forgot to count past 1, amigo .
Unlike you, I've never cried nerf or buff like this. It's funny cuz your attitude is EXACTLY what I describe to many people. You say your class is all balanced and fine, but when something comes along that can beat you, you qq for he nerfbat. Meanwhile, I take things in stride, and learn to play around my opponents's strengths and weaknesses(I can speak volumes of the endless CWs qqing over GWF OPness, and HR OPness, yet can count only a couple CWs actually discussing tactics to fight the new menaces as they arise).
If you think that dungeon design isn't strictly for the CW class, and top pve players prefer diversity over speed, I think it's time to admit it.... YOURE the one with a denial problem .
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
If you think that dungeon design isn't strictly for the CW class, and top pve players prefer diversity over speed, I think it's time to admit it.... YOURE the one with a denial problem .
Yup you're right,
GFs have no problem at ALL.
You guys are just smoking things out there and everyone wants you.
You guys are just smoking things out there and everyone wants you.
You're still in denial?!
1)never said they got picked a lot. But that's dungeon design, not the classes' flaws(like I said, you're in denial).
2)I already stated, as have others, why they don't get requested(by the majority anyway) of players. It's not Agro control that people want in dungeons, so why request a class whose main purpose is just that? Who needs a tank, when "tanking" is a slower, less speedy tactic than "burn and pile things faster". And that's exactly what GWFs and CWs do. The burn mobs.
3)Many elitist endgame guilds(both pvp AND pve) don't need(let alone want) anything but the best classes for that gametype.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
no one takes GF's because all classes are useless in pve compared to cw's. If i decide to go do cn, my parties comprise of 3 cws. everything else is not worth bringing because everything else is terrible at trash clearing, and thats what cws are best at. and plop 1k or so lifesteal on a cw + endless consumption and you no longer need clerics. and also the AOE damage that you do far exceeds any single target a TR or GWF can do to a boss
no one takes GF's because all classes are useless in pve compared to cw's. If i decide to go do cn, my parties comprise of 3 cws. everything else is not worth bringing because everything else is terrible at trash clearing, and thats what cws are best at. and plop 1k or so lifesteal on a cw + endless consumption and you no longer need clerics. and also the AOE damage that you do far exceeds any single target a TR or GWF can do to a boss
and GF's are the worst at all of this
...hence, dungeon designed too easy.
● mobs resistant to magic damage
● mobs immune to certain CCs
● mobs scripted to specifically target CW/DCs as priorities
Give us!
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
1)never said they got picked a lot. But that's dungeon design, not the classes' flaws(like I said, you're in denial).
No, I actually agreed with you on that. I just said the Devs aren't going to change that. We've been bringing that up for how long now? I know others have been doing it since Beta.
Yet here we are in IWD, mod 3 and I'm still being spammed by 15+ mobs. I don't think they're ever going to change the meta on this.
Which brings me to point 2.
2)I already stated, as have others, why they don't get requested(by the majority anyway) of players. It's not Agro control that people want in dungeons, so why request a class whose main purpose is just that? Who needs a tank, when "tanking" is a slower, less speedy tactic than "burn and pile things faster". And that's exactly what GWFs and CWs do. The burn mobs.
You know.... I know you think this is about speed running.
But.... I.... think just as many people would rather just make it through some of these upper tier dungeons and just complete them which... most are not at present. I think they'd love to be able to queue up and make it through them. BUT... The Devs designed these dungeons to make it HARD for that "BALANCED" party to make it through.
So they're designed to be hard for THAT specific meta.
They're NOT hard with a non standard party like the CW/GWF/DC team we both know, because they actually designed this stuff around beating a balanced party... NOT a party composition designed entirely around mass mob destruction.
I don't have much to worry about because I'm a mage and have always been. You're the guy they designed these dungeons to wipe out, which subsequently happens. And... then... well they overdid it. And lets face it here, you guys aren't that great once they start spamming us with that many mobs. You can actually tank great, but there's so many of them you can't hold them and never could so the rest of the party gets overwhelmed.
If they aren't going to change the meta on this..... and I have no reason to believe they will.... then the only solution to put you guys back in the shoes that allows a balanced party... ie... a PUG group to succeed.
You guys will NEED to be able to hold agro better when they start getting spammed at least you'll be able to get PUGS through those things.
3)Many elitist endgame guilds(both pvp AND pve) don't need(let alone want) anything but the best classes for that gametype.
You're right, and I know them too.
But I'm not concerned with them... they'll do whatever they want to do anyway.
The real solution is to rework some of the dungeons to accommodate other classes.
But how long have we realistically been asking for that?
All we see is a bunch of useless short sighted nerfs that don't do a thing but make the situation worse.
I don't disagree with your points posted above either. But(as far as the "speed run" comment) a lot of elitist people want to farm dungeons fast, for better ad per hour, and gear drops. That's why the "gs or gtfo" banner was also raised. Personally, neither me nor a lot of people I play with care about this attitude. And actually have friends that save dungeons by bringing GFs in(frozen heart, for example). I actually prefer a balanced party, and can do dungeons with them. But do the elitists' want to do a 30min-1hr 1 run dd? Nope. It's all "slot the easymode GWFs and CWs for "speed runs" because they can do 2-3 dungeon runs(more in the case of VT).
And like I said earlier, I don't want Nerfs to GWFs/CWs either. I supported what a couple of people have already stated: dungeon rework, or dungeons tailored towards class diversity, and giving rainbow parties a chance.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited May 2014
Well here's what you're actually looking at happening...
Hey guys, I wanted to drop by and talk a bit about Guardian Fighters and what is going on with them in the coming months. We have heard your feedback, and have been looking hard at where and how they fit into combat and group structure. We decided that we did not have time to implement the changes we wanted to make to improve Guardian Fighter utility, group strength, and tanking tools and still get adequate testing in. Therefore we wanted to step back and take a longer look at Guardians and make some bigger changes to them on a longer time frame where we could get more testing in.
We wanted to address a couple of really big issues that we feel are impeding the Guardian's ability to tank in groups. While we have not finalized the specifics about the changes we are making, I wanted to share some of the major issues we are hitting with the changes we are working on.
Threat Generation and Aggro Control - We know how frustrating it is to try and maintain threat with how much damage other classes can dish out, so we are making some key changes to allow the Guardian to both capitalize on that and generate substantially more threat in his own kit as well.
Interaction between Blocking and healers - We are looking at several options to adjust Block that removes some of the binary "I am blocking and therefore don't really benefit from healing" gameplay that exists as well as the risk of Block being broken so rapidly under sustained fire.
Group utility benefits - We wanted to provide some buffs that allow the Guardian to empower his teammates a bit as well as long as he is fulfilling his role correctly and maintaining threat on targets, and we have a couple ideas we are trying to allow the guardian to provide some pretty powerful increases to ally output without sacrificing the core of his role.
I don't currently have a timeline for when you guys will be able to see these things, but I wanted you guys to know we are taking your feedback and we are working on changes to improve Guardian gameplay and tanking in general.
I seriously lol'ed at your pathetic attempt to troll right here.
Anyone with ANY experience in this game knows that when it comes to pve, the OP class is the control wizard. It has been since beta.
As has been stated before: I've played ALL of my classes in both pve AND pvp. And both game types prefer the OP classes. I'm not a fan of it, but unlike you, I at least acknowledge it. It's people like YOU who cast judgement on some because of your bad experiences.
Also, I'm 1 of at least a few that have posted in here already about positive GF experiences. I think you forgot to count past 1, amigo .
Unlike you, I've never cried nerf or buff like this. It's funny cuz your attitude is EXACTLY what I describe to many people. You say your class is all balanced and fine, but when something comes along that can beat you, you qq for he nerfbat. Meanwhile, I take things in stride, and learn to play around my opponents's strengths and weaknesses(I can speak volumes of the endless CWs qqing over GWF OPness, and HR OPness, yet can count only a couple CWs actually discussing tactics to fight the new menaces as they arise).
If you think that dungeon design isn't strictly for the CW class, and top pve players prefer diversity over speed, I think it's time to admit it.... YOURE the one with a denial problem .
It seems like only certain classes are not dropped after joining epic level dungeons at the high levels? Is this generally the case? Is it pretty much guaranteed that if you're not a CW or GWF you'll be insta-dropped from a PUG? Do Cleric's or Hunter Rangers not play much of a role either? As a new player I'm somewhat concerned at the limited choices for viable end game play that this thread proposes. It sounds like if epic dungeons are going to be AOE centric then all classes should have useful AOE mechanics to fill their roll or (some) epic dungeons need to be less AOE centric.
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epclipseingmoonMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2014
it all depends on your gs in some pugs, in most cases in cn and mc if your a dc or gf you will be dropped if you have under 13k gs and sometimes 15k if they are eliteists or kicked if your found to be deadweight...
This game has a pretty toxic "zone/lfg" population. Sure there are good people in LFG, but the "decent human being" to "elitist/campfireteleport/GS-stipulation/idiot/exploiter/even-bigger-idiot" ratio is....not very favourable.
I pugged a lot when I was slightly more nublet than I am now, but since I joined legit....man: groups from that channel are just so much better than pugging.
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epclipseingmoonMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2014
^^
So true and you dont get abuse for makeing a mistake by the perfict elitistis race that never stuffup either.
It took me ages to even become an good tank that can hold lots of mobs without dieing so yeah....
If we dident have fighters recovery we would be worthless 100%.
silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
edited May 2014
Agreed 100% with morsitans, go legit and play the game as it was meant to, full runs, just avoiding a few mobs without stupid exploits, class compositions dont matter and poeple have the best time and almost always finish the dd's. Maybe a few from time to time you dont, but hey it happens.
The community is by far what I most experience in other mmos, this is after playing them for 20 years almost, I came to NW and was totally shocked at the people here, until I found legit, now its either legit, guild or no way am I going. That channel is clearly what a game community should be.
Supportive , fun and friendly. Just go on any day and say hey I need help during DD to gear up, can anyone run t1s or something and usually people will ect.
Dont expect to be carried, but at least they will give you a shot (so hey dont go into a run wearing lvl 40 gear and whites/greens, spend 1k ad and get some blues at least:p
Not intentionally. I just responded to his post in a form parodying his phrasing, but only as SARCASM. Although harsh and unnecessary(found later; missed that he wasn't offensively calling out the class, I.e., missed context), his statements are based on his experiences, as mine are based on mine.
I stand by my words though, as I've been complimented and have played with good GFs capable of keeping things off the parties' backs. I've been in parties where they didn't rush too much to allow more than a dozen mobs to attack the party. Hence, the GF could safely engage a dozen mobs and keep their attention on him/her. But people don't want a slower paced run, do they? Who wants a slow and tedious challenge, when they can burn things at breakneck speeds with team comps they(the developers) didn't compensate for?
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
Also agree with morsitans. There's too many elitist people/guilds running around.
Go try legit channel, or maybe might catch a certain dc girlfriend of mine who also tanks .
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
This game has a pretty toxic "zone/lfg" population. Sure there are good people in LFG, but the "decent human being" to "elitist/campfireteleport/GS-stipulation/idiot/exploiter/even-bigger-idiot" ratio is....not very favourable.
I pugged a lot when I was slightly more nublet than I am now, but since I joined legit....man: groups from that channel are just so much better than pugging.
Legit is much better, that is true, but it would be dishonest to say that ''classism'' is not found there either. I still mostly see requests for DPS or a DC while in the channel. The only time I see an explicit request for a GF is for SP and FH runs, for quite obvious reasons.
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
I rarely see specific requests for any class, to be honest. At least not from people who've been in legit long enough to understand that "LF1M CW 15K GS EXP ONLY" is not going to work.
About the only class that might possibly be requested explicitly is a DC, and that's purely because they're the only healer class (even though healing isn't that necessary these days).
I usually try to get as much of a mixed bag party as I can, just because it's usually more fun that way. Having said that, 5 man GF parties are hilarious.
Comments
Plus, if "every party you've ever been in with a GF has been a failure", then....well, the GF is not the only common factor, there.
In contrast, I've seen some great GFs while playing my CW, and my CW has never "had to learn to survive without GFs" because being a CW and killing all the things is almost effortless, no matter who else is in your party. A good tank just means you don't have to use the shift key quite as often.
Well said.
If the party fails, then it simply isn't strong/skilled enough to four-man the instance. That's not really the GF's fault. The GF isn't actually needed anywhere- I've done plenty of FH with no healer and no GF- often with PUGs. As you pointed out earlier in the thread, taking a GF there is just convenience.
For any other PvE content, taking a GF is just a personal kindness. No-one needs one, some quite bad/inexperienced players might think that they do, but that's because they have preconceived notions from other MMOs with correctly functioning "holy trinity" mechanics, coupled with poor powers of observation. Even a TR would be more useful in PvE, and that's saying something.
I'm not quite sure what to say here ..
Well we really don't.
But the FH grouping should demonstrate clearly its not our CC that sustains us as mages as those targets are immunte to that and Singularity. That was just wishful thinking. Our power was in our AoEs... not the CCs. Those we need to combine with each other or other classes to make them effective. AoEs we don't.
I also didn't say the parties were a failure I said their agro control was.... they can take a good solid hit and that was never the problem, well, except in Spider Queen. We did however end up carrying the GFs the majority of the time as the things we expected out of them do not materialize in those shoes.
Their usefulness would increase dramatically however.... if I did not have to teleport all over the field running for my life and soloing these things by myself...
I do not have to do that with a GWF party or a multi-CW party.
Actually those ARE wanted in dungeons.
But not as much for healing at later levels, its their Buffs that shoot the damage of the CW/GWF team through the roof, something they cannot do without one.
Ergo... you will never find that kind of team refusing a cleric.
Not going to happen.
But there are other things that make you don't need a DC/GF, for example, if you have +1k Regen and +1k Life steal (and a Decent DPS/HP) you will heal yourself more than any DC could, and if you grab 2 CW (or more) then you won't need more mob control, the game is made to make us useless (or atleast not needed), isn't just that we don't have the enough HP/DR (to hold +15 foes), the thing is that there aren't Deadly/Fast CC Inmune Mobs that would make GF more desirable, the dungeons are made in a way that even a FULL party of CW can do it (something unthinkable in others MMO).
^This. I've "carried" a GF in the party just as much as other classes have needed to be carried. Just cuz you've run into the bad ones does not mean they're all bad. You can't judge a class based on your own experiences with them, otherwise I can shun about 85% of the CW population... I end up running dungeons a lot where, if the CW in my party isn't me or one of my guild mates, they had to be carried throughout the dungeon/dropped.
People want speedy, fast, cheesy ways to finish dungeons, and CWs, and to a lesser extent, GWFs are the easiest classes to use. The mobs being cc'ed and aoe dps'ed leads to faster kills, so they want speed runs, allowing more drop chances over an actual challenge. Take away the ability to group up multiple CWs in a party, then see how easy they end up being. Like pvp, why make a rainbow party, when you can just stack the most OP classes in your team.
My GF- formerly my primary, now my grandpa(: char- was today at Biggrins at Ivewind Dale. It was a pain in the best part..., the time needed to bring down 2 giants and the 3 wolves was sadly boring and painful to watch. I quickly deleted all the other quests for the day and decided to use my GF finally for AD making, Gauntlgrym and the daily PVP, but that only for the AD too, 'cause i hate all the perma TRs, who when they come at 2 or 3 at you, are major pain in the best part too.
When Mod 3 came out i thought, that it was another nail in the coffin of the GF, but now i'm pretty sure the Devs want to see this char dead and gone. He is on the best way to there, many of us old Gf players are slowly but surely abandoning him and newbies don't even roll a Gf, because they know, that it sucks...
Robert E. Lee
I only believe in statistics that I doctored myself.
Winston Churchill
The human race is a herd. Here we are, unique, eternal aspects of consciousness with an infinity of potential, and we have allowed ourselves to become an unthinking, unquestioning blob of conformity and uniformity. A herd. Once we concede to the herd mentality, we can be controlled and directed by a tiny few. And we are.
David Icke
Yeah... totally we all know its ALL about speed running. I was totally wrong GFs can tank like an SOB, and hold a good 20 mob agro nobody else can see it but YOU...
You're totally right man.
I suppose.... that's the attitude that invoked the.... "nerfs solve everything" ideas... Hey I'm just fine... its everyone ELSE thats overpowered and its all their fault so nerf them... which of course has solved every problem in the game hasn't it?
Maybe its time to admit... you really do have a problem.
I seriously lol'ed at your pathetic attempt to troll right here.
Anyone with ANY experience in this game knows that when it comes to pve, the OP class is the control wizard. It has been since beta.
As has been stated before: I've played ALL of my classes in both pve AND pvp. And both game types prefer the OP classes. I'm not a fan of it, but unlike you, I at least acknowledge it. It's people like YOU who cast judgement on some because of your bad experiences.
Also, I'm 1 of at least a few that have posted in here already about positive GF experiences. I think you forgot to count past 1, amigo
Unlike you, I've never cried nerf or buff like this. It's funny cuz your attitude is EXACTLY what I describe to many people. You say your class is all balanced and fine, but when something comes along that can beat you, you qq for he nerfbat. Meanwhile, I take things in stride, and learn to play around my opponents's strengths and weaknesses(I can speak volumes of the endless CWs qqing over GWF OPness, and HR OPness, yet can count only a couple CWs actually discussing tactics to fight the new menaces as they arise).
If you think that dungeon design isn't strictly for the CW class, and top pve players prefer diversity over speed, I think it's time to admit it.... YOURE the one with a denial problem
Yup you're right,
GFs have no problem at ALL.
You guys are just smoking things out there and everyone wants you.
You're still in denial?!
1)never said they got picked a lot. But that's dungeon design, not the classes' flaws(like I said, you're in denial).
2)I already stated, as have others, why they don't get requested(by the majority anyway) of players. It's not Agro control that people want in dungeons, so why request a class whose main purpose is just that? Who needs a tank, when "tanking" is a slower, less speedy tactic than "burn and pile things faster". And that's exactly what GWFs and CWs do. The burn mobs.
3)Many elitist endgame guilds(both pvp AND pve) don't need(let alone want) anything but the best classes for that gametype.
and GF's are the worst at all of this
...hence, dungeon designed too easy.
● mobs resistant to magic damage
● mobs immune to certain CCs
● mobs scripted to specifically target CW/DCs as priorities
Give us!
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
No, I actually agreed with you on that. I just said the Devs aren't going to change that. We've been bringing that up for how long now? I know others have been doing it since Beta.
Yet here we are in IWD, mod 3 and I'm still being spammed by 15+ mobs. I don't think they're ever going to change the meta on this.
Which brings me to point 2.
You know.... I know you think this is about speed running.
But.... I.... think just as many people would rather just make it through some of these upper tier dungeons and just complete them which... most are not at present. I think they'd love to be able to queue up and make it through them. BUT... The Devs designed these dungeons to make it HARD for that "BALANCED" party to make it through.
So they're designed to be hard for THAT specific meta.
They're NOT hard with a non standard party like the CW/GWF/DC team we both know, because they actually designed this stuff around beating a balanced party... NOT a party composition designed entirely around mass mob destruction.
I don't have much to worry about because I'm a mage and have always been. You're the guy they designed these dungeons to wipe out, which subsequently happens. And... then... well they overdid it. And lets face it here, you guys aren't that great once they start spamming us with that many mobs. You can actually tank great, but there's so many of them you can't hold them and never could so the rest of the party gets overwhelmed.
If they aren't going to change the meta on this..... and I have no reason to believe they will.... then the only solution to put you guys back in the shoes that allows a balanced party... ie... a PUG group to succeed.
You guys will NEED to be able to hold agro better when they start getting spammed at least you'll be able to get PUGS through those things.
You're right, and I know them too.
But I'm not concerned with them... they'll do whatever they want to do anyway.
The real solution is to rework some of the dungeons to accommodate other classes.
But how long have we realistically been asking for that?
All we see is a bunch of useless short sighted nerfs that don't do a thing but make the situation worse.
And like I said earlier, I don't want Nerfs to GWFs/CWs either. I supported what a couple of people have already stated: dungeon rework, or dungeons tailored towards class diversity, and giving rainbow parties a chance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law would really seem to apply in spades here.
if you dont want to be kicked dont pug...
Princess Amber - DC
Shieldmaiden Amber - GF
Valkyrie Amber - GWF
Huntress Amber - HR
This game has a pretty toxic "zone/lfg" population. Sure there are good people in LFG, but the "decent human being" to "elitist/campfireteleport/GS-stipulation/idiot/exploiter/even-bigger-idiot" ratio is....not very favourable.
I pugged a lot when I was slightly more nublet than I am now, but since I joined legit....man: groups from that channel are just so much better than pugging.
So true and you dont get abuse for makeing a mistake by the perfict elitistis race that never stuffup either.
It took me ages to even become an good tank that can hold lots of mobs without dieing so yeah....
If we dident have fighters recovery we would be worthless 100%.
Princess Amber - DC
Shieldmaiden Amber - GF
Valkyrie Amber - GWF
Huntress Amber - HR
The community is by far what I most experience in other mmos, this is after playing them for 20 years almost, I came to NW and was totally shocked at the people here, until I found legit, now its either legit, guild or no way am I going. That channel is clearly what a game community should be.
Supportive , fun and friendly. Just go on any day and say hey I need help during DD to gear up, can anyone run t1s or something and usually people will ect.
Dont expect to be carried, but at least they will give you a shot (so hey dont go into a run wearing lvl 40 gear and whites/greens, spend 1k ad and get some blues at least:p
Not intentionally. I just responded to his post in a form parodying his phrasing, but only as SARCASM. Although harsh and unnecessary(found later; missed that he wasn't offensively calling out the class, I.e., missed context), his statements are based on his experiences, as mine are based on mine.
I stand by my words though, as I've been complimented and have played with good GFs capable of keeping things off the parties' backs. I've been in parties where they didn't rush too much to allow more than a dozen mobs to attack the party. Hence, the GF could safely engage a dozen mobs and keep their attention on him/her. But people don't want a slower paced run, do they? Who wants a slow and tedious challenge, when they can burn things at breakneck speeds with team comps they(the developers) didn't compensate for?
Go try legit channel, or maybe might catch a certain dc girlfriend of mine who also tanks
Legit is much better, that is true, but it would be dishonest to say that ''classism'' is not found there either. I still mostly see requests for DPS or a DC while in the channel. The only time I see an explicit request for a GF is for SP and FH runs, for quite obvious reasons.
About the only class that might possibly be requested explicitly is a DC, and that's purely because they're the only healer class (even though healing isn't that necessary these days).
I usually try to get as much of a mixed bag party as I can, just because it's usually more fun that way. Having said that, 5 man GF parties are hilarious.