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Implement requirements for pvp or...
overddrive
Member Posts: 722 Bounty Hunter
We either need requirements to enter pvp or we need a separate q for ranked matches. I am sick of being in a group where more than 1 person is under 10k gs and I have to carry the team. Usually that means fighting the other entire team by myself through the whole match because my stupid team all runs to whatever node is filling blue and has no enemies on it. Yes I am in a guild yes I run premades with my guild, with other guilds as a 5th man and with friends. That isnt the point. The point is quing for pugs SUCKS. One should not EXPECT that by solo queing one is going to have a horrible experience with incompetent and undergeared people on your team.
So what kind of requirements should there be for pvp? There should either/both be a minimum gs of 10k/the player should have to successfully complete a "tutorial" which would really just be a ste by step instruction pve quest on the domination maps. The player would be the only player, the rest would be npcs. Get 5 wins and they let you q for regular domination.
Ya, I get that domination pvp is really just a side show for the whole pve experience, intended to be yet another cupcake walk for the pve crowd but the reality is that player vs player competition attracts a more serious and committed "type" of player and that these players in NW have coalesced into a growing community. So the pve players come up against them and are like "wtf that wasnt like stomping the sewer rats that was actually hard...er I mean UNFAIR, it was UNFAIR" and the pvp people are like "wtf are you doing on my team, go back to the rat sewers".
So ya, everyone should be free to pvp, just like the game is free, so long as they pass some minimum requirements (can they f'ing breath, are they fit to walk and chew gum at the same time????). After all you need to pass some minimum requirements to play the game: a computer and an internet connection.
Please Cryptic take pvp seriously before the pvp players in this game no longer take this game seriously.
edit/btw: I know how horribly offensive that sounds to non-pvp players. I will say that many pve and even rp players are really committed to their niches in the game. They spend many hours and a pretty penny getting their pve gear/rp costumes and character bios and so on, just right. I just want the devs to give the pvp community the same love that the rest get. No love no play.
So what kind of requirements should there be for pvp? There should either/both be a minimum gs of 10k/the player should have to successfully complete a "tutorial" which would really just be a ste by step instruction pve quest on the domination maps. The player would be the only player, the rest would be npcs. Get 5 wins and they let you q for regular domination.
Ya, I get that domination pvp is really just a side show for the whole pve experience, intended to be yet another cupcake walk for the pve crowd but the reality is that player vs player competition attracts a more serious and committed "type" of player and that these players in NW have coalesced into a growing community. So the pve players come up against them and are like "wtf that wasnt like stomping the sewer rats that was actually hard...er I mean UNFAIR, it was UNFAIR" and the pvp people are like "wtf are you doing on my team, go back to the rat sewers".
So ya, everyone should be free to pvp, just like the game is free, so long as they pass some minimum requirements (can they f'ing breath, are they fit to walk and chew gum at the same time????). After all you need to pass some minimum requirements to play the game: a computer and an internet connection.
Please Cryptic take pvp seriously before the pvp players in this game no longer take this game seriously.
edit/btw: I know how horribly offensive that sounds to non-pvp players. I will say that many pve and even rp players are really committed to their niches in the game. They spend many hours and a pretty penny getting their pve gear/rp costumes and character bios and so on, just right. I just want the devs to give the pvp community the same love that the rest get. No love no play.
PanzerJäger HR Hybrid
Jugger Conq GF
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Jugger Conq GF
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Post edited by overddrive on
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I am all for that also but we have to accept the negative side of that coin: if only a pug and only a premade q, they smply will not face each other and neither will even get a match until another team of the same type ques. That could take a very long time depending on the time of day and so on.
I am much more into a ladder system with ranked and unranked ques.
Jugger Conq GF
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when queue times blew up after the implementation of elo rankings, that seemed to have been a pretty hot forum topic.
Que times can be a big problem and people get upset at long que times. I do think it is worth asking why they do upset people. I would speculate that it is because when you q you really can't enjoy other content while waiting. If the que pops in the middle of pve content and you accept, you will be ported right back to where you originally qued from and most likely die. To me that is a continuity of game play issue, just like que times. For balanced matches you are simply going to have a continuity issue, but to me that would be alleviated at least partially by being ported back to the campfire nearest to where you qued for pvp (if you did que in a combat area). It would be further alleviated with an option to wait for a balanced match or take the first one that presents its self. Choice is huge.
Jugger Conq GF
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What I mean is: brackets.
lvl 1-59 (as per usual, minus the bizarre gear usable at lower levels - why making twink so easy - o.O )
then, the change *fanfare*
Lvl 60 -T1
Lvl 60 - T2
Lvl 60 - Twhatever
Meaning? Meaning you are queued to a "T" depending on the amount of items of a T-set, for instance: you are equipped with 2 items (minimum number to obtain a bonus) of T1, then you go into T1 queue. PROBABLY even Lvl 60 with all decent rares could be into T1 queue (correct me here).
Ah and if you want do the baddy (equipping superior gear while in lower T-bracket), 2 options: 1)kick 2) impossibility to swap equip items (powers of course yes)
I like the bracket idea but I do think there is validity to the idea that a higher gs will mean more wins period, so I would really like a ladder/matching system based on wins/losses (PERIOD), used as the brackets themselves. Like you said, gold, silver, bronze or whatever spectacular shiny names they come up with.
Even a bracket system based on pure gs would be ok but then people would switch out gear during the match. Lets say they make it so you cant switch out gear on the domination match. Then you would have people with every non-gs advantage they could get and everyone else complaining that they just got stomped in the bronze bracket by a 4k gwf with a perfect vorpal and soulforge. Unfortunately the metrics in this game are convoluted and lack uniformity which in the end is going to make for a nightmare for those responsible for keeping it running.
Jugger Conq GF
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Weapon and armor enchants are not included in gearscore. So you really would have people with a 4k gs with a perfect vorpal and a perfect soulforg in the lowest gs bracket, stomping everyone. Uniformity of character power measurement would go a long long way. If they do not want to create a uniform system then at least implement a win/loss ladder.
Jugger Conq GF
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Second, lets implement a gearscore requirement, maybe around 10k and more importantly, tenacity requirement of 500.
People should think at least some seconds about gear and tactic before entering pvp arena.
And heres a keen idea: you only get the daily rewards, if u win. And with every loss u loose AD, lets say 1000. the reward for wining would be the daily diamonds plus the amount u lost.
This means, u really have to win to profit from the daily diamonds.
What we want to achieve is not to reduce the amount of players in pvp but to give them a real motivation to win. And if u actually loose something when u loose, people would have a reason to fight for the team and not only grab points for daily rewards.
Something like this is done for ELO in chess matches (I played competitively for a few years) the problem comes in in matchmaking. Chess teams are ALL pre-made so aggregate stats apply. If you simply que PVP and are high ranked matchmaking will find you poor players to ballance against an average team. the l;aternative is long wait times to get a team with competitive skill levles. FOr overall ranking this kind of works as the longer you pug (if good at PVP) the more lousy teamates they will give you leaving you room to score the bulk of the kills.
As PWE decided that the queue pool is nontransparent you have no idea how log to wait. Seconds, minutes, hours.
You can not even go to the toilet, as a queue might pop after an hour wait (thinking about DD there) droping you from the queue.
You can not join a party for dailies. So much stuff that depends on the queue system, but our sight of it is blocked on purpose.
No, the lousy team mates don't leave you more room for kills unless you play a class that does about a million low damage attacks constantly, all lousy team mates get you is you against the entire other team, because your team simply runs away until you clear a node then they all jump in to collect the 300 points when no enemies are around.
Oh a lousy team will get you doing about 99% of all damage done to the other team but kills is more a matter of who attacks last which is really a matter of who attacks most often. "Yes, I just fought 3 of the enemy team by myself on this here node, killing the 9k tr, and I have the 11k and 12k gwfs down to about 5% health each, please Mr. 7k TR from my team, come and finish off that last 5% of those gwfs health for me, I really appreciate that, and the fact that your going to get the 300 points for capping the node with me, despite having done absolutely nothing. Thank you very much!" lol.
Domination point scoring is simply f'ing stupid. That needs done away with period or at the very least kills need awarded to who did the most damage to a killed character. In other words, there needs to be a strong incentive to win and absolutely no incentive to do anything but win. Period. Screw all else, the only score that matters is the win/loss column or this isnt even a real game.
Jugger Conq GF
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Ok you have a very good point but lets come up with some solutions. To me that is a continuity of game play issue. In other words, when you q and the q takes more than 3 minutes, the continuity of game play is disrupted. I gave a couple suggestions. Another would be a series of small 1v1 "unranked" arenas in the Trade of Blades. Anyone could watch. That would be something to do while waiting. Or the pvp tutorial that I spelled out. Let the players dial up the difficulty by adjusting the enemy teams and their teams gear score. So you could practice. Lots of stuff to do. Lots of solutions.
Jugger Conq GF
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Yes, winning and winning only should be rewarded. There should be no points, no ad, no glory, no nothing for anything but a win.
Jugger Conq GF
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I think your bracket idea is a pretty good idea but im trying to wrap my head around it before saying much about it.
Jugger Conq GF
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And here we have it. Ur very active in this forum, have read alot, and still ur lacking this knowledge, really? REALLY?
Look into the auction house, sort blue lvl60 gear for tenacity (and your favourite stats), buy full set of gear for under 5k ad. Congrats! You have decent tenacity and stat allocation. All for cheap AD EVERYONE can afford. Hell, some of these blue items are even better than epic ones.
Thats why we need a toturial. Thats why we need a GS and tenacity requirement. So that people actually use their brain when entering a domination match.
I do want the requirements, not only GS ones, but minimum tenacity and completed tutorial.
Also, since we all know that gear lays a huge part in PvP success, exactly how do you expect people who lose a lot of matches to improve while earning zero glory to buy better gear?
And lastly - for those of us who only PvP and grind the campaigns (IWD, Sharandar, DR) the AD rewards for the PvP dailies are our major source of income. Take these away and I'd pretty much have to drop PvP for PvE.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Bottom line: ppl don't even kill clerics anymore...they just let me walk around cause I can't do **** anyways. GREAT JOB CRYPTIC.
Ancient Warriors Guild
+/- 3k my GS
Premade only
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I recently got a few new chars to 60. PvP with them sucks, because they are sitting at right around 11k GS. I'd happily sit in queue 30 mins a match while doing my dailies, if it meant they weren't horrible one sided affairs where you're 3-capped by a maxxed out pre-made, or you win the pug lottery and get 2-3 16k+ GWF's on your team and 3-cap the opposition.
These one sided stomp fests aren't really entertaining to anyone. It's boring for the winning team and frustrating for the losing team. Good matches are what everyone wants, lacking perhaps a few angsty teens taking out their control issues on the PvP queue.
Cept one problem, there isn't enough of you over geared perfect enchant wielding people online at the same time to queue against each other, if there were then when the ELO system came on the queues wouldn't' have taken 1+ hours to pop.
As many die hard PVP people there are they just don't make up a large portion of the population. The largest population is PVE F2P people that have worked their way through the game without spending money most likely (nothing wrong with that this is a F2P game, fremium or pay to win in other words) and just queue to have some fun or see what's domination all about. Those who don't' have enchants at all or even gotten a single artifact (that truly does baffle me how that happens) tend to have decent matches against each other, the balance is there are enough hardcore PVP people out there that pull these groups.
At least there was a poll started for premade v premade only so hopefully that will spawn a separate queue option and see how it goes.
I think there're more than we think there are.
You must be an overgeared pay 2 win person otherwise you'd know that take away rewards and people wont' queue up for pvp and if you think its bad now wait til you get an itch to do some pvp and the queue never pops EVER!
Someone else pointed out that rewards is how people get better, take away the reward for losing and how do you expect people to get gear. You do realize part of the issue is the growing problem of gear to win that is the current PVP motif. If you don't have gear (hence the complaint about low GS people) you can't win and if you can't ever win how are you expecting people to get what they need to win?
If you think your leet skills are truly that good, then strip down naked and fight with nothing on and use only your characters powers and see how that goes.
In fact why the PVP community is always so insistant on gear ... PVP is about skill not freaking gear, shut up about low GS people and start voting for changes that remove gear from PVP force players to rely on what skills/powers they have and duke it out without any enchancement. Rewards would be AD for the PVE portion of the game and really awesome cosmetic stuff to make you stand out and show off your status as an awesome PVP player. Technically everyone would be happy in that scenario as PVP players won't have to dole out actual money to buy anything and they can truly claim to be of leet skill and not because they are cash cows to PWE/Cryptic (who would undoubtedly be the only ones crying about how that is unfair cause they paid to win didn't want to use skill to win at all).
By the way I know there are people of amazing skill and those in great gear vs. others in great gear will show skill as that is probably a balanced playing field however a lot of people (we are talking the 90+% who don't have maxed characters) just don't play enough to either grind up to that level, don't play long enough to eventually get there, or just can't invest money to help speed that process up. The high end pvp community is really more of a minority than they think otherwise the random people with low GS getting pulled into matches would be a lot less of an issue.
I again as always suggest the removing of gear and its effects from pvp, enchants and everything, keep tenacity and if you must keep the glory system as a reward then make it so that to make matches easier after wining a lot (and that is all gear based versions is) then make it so that glory "buys" tenacity upgrades. You start at 10% and if you want 11% for an edge you spend x amount of glory. Cap it at say 20 - 25% to prevent severe imbalancing and then do the same for things like movement speed (which is primarily only used for pvp as most pve people don't want to waste points in that stat except for use in a utility slot).
For appearance sake gear keeps its visuals, so you are still looking like you are wearing armor and wielding a sword, hammer, etc., however you just don't get the benefit from it just like companions don't help you in PVP domination.
I can't help to think how much fun pvp would be and how different the leader boards would look if this was implemented. I think it should be put on a test server to see how it works. It should not be hard to disable bonuses from gear inside a PVP instance since companions are easily disabled.
On a side note, I just wonder why doesn't leveling increase stats by itself? It doesn't have to do it a lot but a little for each level, as it is now the only thing modifying stats is what gear you have. The only thing seemingly level dependent is I think damage (the formula takes level into account?) and hit points. Which I have to wonder why are hit points the same across classes? It seems without gear buffs it seems to me every class has the same hit points at the same level or at least so close to it that its hardly noticeable. I think my GF fresh 60 had just about the same HP as my fresh 60 CW with only feats being the determining factor in difference in HP as my GF I think had 9% extra HP and my CW either had none or 6%.
Any thoughts on that? I'd really like to see what the PVP community thinks about these ideas and statements?
Pay attention to the names and guild names. I have seen a lot of the exact same players in multiple matches in a row so yeah I'm pretty sure they are not in the majority, might be 1 - 10% (although i'm not sure i'd say in my opinion they probably aren't but 10% or less of the community as a whole and i'm referring to people that only PVP and either never PVE or only do it enough to get an artifact and AD from dailys.) maybe more but no where near 20% or more. Not say there isn't a lot of dedicated PVP people just saying that there are way more people that play the game for what it's designed for and that is RPG MMO not PVP slaughterfest. PVP should if anything just be a side dueling thing to pass time while waiting on Dungeon Queues and skirmishes.
But I understand your point I just think they are smaller than the forums would have us believe. This maybe changing with IWD since the gear is pretty PVE and PVP friendly resolving the issue of multiple armor sets (assuming you can even get complete sets the way things are currently).
CRAZY MIKE - 14.6k PvE CW
Backbone - 16.7k PvP HR
[SIGPIC]http://i59.tinypic.com/s3hts7.png[/SIGPIC]
I agree with this! Any team that ques 3+ together enters a premade que!
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
I would say the requirements could start at level 60. Aside from that, afk penalties. Can't q for pvp or anything, account wide, if you get hit with a penalty. Winning has to be the only thing that matters or people will choose to not win and instead do what matters. Like just show up and not do anything to win.
Jugger Conq GF
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First of all, as far as I know, colonel is not geared out with perfects. The gaps in ability and gs are massive along each "bracket". 11k is godly vs 7k, 15k godly vs 11k and 18k with perfect armor and weapon are godly to 15k without. I would think the people between 11k and 18k are significant, maybe the majority.
Otherwise I think your point stands.
Jugger Conq GF
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