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Vengeance's pursuit
dllindsey12
Member Posts: 92 Arc User
i just want to ask first before i make a report on the other forum. but is anyone experiencing issues with this ability? i just tried it in a pvp match. marked my target and i got proned by a gwf....i tried to use the followup power to get out of the prone which is a control effect but it didnt work at all.
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You can't cancel prone with VP, its not a bug, its game mechanic. There is no way how to cancel prone.
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I was not testing it but it should be fixed now. I remember that interrupt from VP while you had Determined Pursuit from Executioner tree was too not working, I'm curious if it does work now but not enough to pay 150k AD just to try it and 150k AD to retrain back, if someone could give info about it I would be glad.
The appeal of VP is the offensive "pursuit" aspect of it, because it's not a reliable defense skill at all.
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I give y an simple solution : Go google Seach : neverwinter preview copy your char to neverwinter preview then y can have unlimited free respec tokens
I know about preview server, I was testing module 3 and tenacity from first day launch at preview. But its not same here on live server. it can be fixed on preview and be broken here on live.
how can you not cancel prone with VP? its a form of cc which means it should be able to break it just like using unstoppable cancels/breaks cc. VP should do the same exact thing.
I am pretty sure no class can do the latter. It's the delay in the animation of standing back up that makes prones so deadly in the first place.
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http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Unstoppable
http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Vengeance%27s_Pursuit
But if a GWF gets proned, they still have to get back up. Timing unstoppable correctly can prevent getting proned in the first place, but if you actually get knocked down, the animation to stand up again has to run.
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This isn't quite correct. While a gwf is unstoppable he can not be proned or cc'd (except by few skills). You can't activate unstoppable while already proned, neither can you block, cast impossible to catch or VP. It's a working mechanic which all classes and skills obey.
If you like it, please visit the TR forums and give us your show of support in this thread
After long consideration, I've finalized my requset/demand to redesign and revitalize the paragon encounter power of Vengeance's Pursuit. This is my finalized suggestion:
CONCEPT
■ The Key Concept of the Whisperknife is a relentless avenger seeking justice through vengeance.
■ The official motto of the WK as explained by D&D4th states;
■ In my opinion, if the Master Infiltrator (motto: “I can get in there. No problem.") is literally, a master of infiltration, slippery and "impossible to catch", the Whisperknife is more of a focus-on-one-target type of character, seeking vengeance on the target he/she has sworn to kill.
■ The master infiltrator is impossible to catch. No matter how many enemies are around him, he will get in the place he wants to be, and then get out safely, dodging and evading his way out of any attempts to catch it.
■ The Whisperknife cannot do that. Fighting against many targets is not its purpose. Its purpose is finding the one it swore vengeance against, and against that one enemy, it will stop at nothing to see justice done.
IDENTIFYING THE PROBLEMS OF CURRENT
■ Simply put, it is a very weak power with almost no utility at all -- at least, not as it was intended to be.
→ The 3%/rank damage debuff is almost unnoticeable in actual combat. Whether the incoming damage is 6,000 or 5,400 is meaningless when TRs are so squishy and hit so hard once it is visible and vulenrable.
→ The CC break portion of the power is very inefficient. I do not know why, but after countless testing I can say that VP does not break you free of CCs immediately.
→ ITC is different. If you are rooted or stunned or dazed or etc.., you click the power and you immediately start moving. VP does not do that. If you are CCd, you mash your buttons all you want and it will break you free with at least a 1 second delay (slow activation)
→ I have also confirmed that VP does not break you free of Icy Rays when the root first starts. It takes at least one or two seconds after the initial root, that you can break free. Just the moment where you're stopped from moving, you cannot break out from it.
→ The damage is pathetically weak. Even with the strongest damage buffs, it will hit for maybe 4k on critical hits.
→ It's old redeeming quality as a 0-recharge gap-closer is now also dead and gone. When it had no recharge, despite the CC-break did not work, a WK could immediately close gaps to the attacker and pressure him through damage.
→ A MI could get hit by a CC, break it immediately through ITC, but that does not change the fact that he still has to cross the distance to actually get to the enemy - which is why he needs the stealth so badly. WK was different. It would be CCd, yes, but if you survive it, then you immediately get back to melee range through VP. Essenitally high-risk/high-reward type of play was possible. Now, the only redeeming quality it had is no more.
CHANGING THE POWER ACCORDING TO CONCEPT
■ Abiding by this concept, my final suggestuon on Vengeance's Pursuit is focused on making it a strong skill, as useful as ITC, which is more powerful than ITC against ONE TARGET, and that one target only, while almost no use against many enemies.
■ All aspects of the power has changed to work against a single target, the target "marked for vengeance".
■ Instead of a CC break, at rank 3 the power applies a 100% CC resistance(half-duration) that continues to be in effect for the duration of the 9 second mark.
■ There is no total immunity like ITC. There is no 100% deflection like ITC. The concept is that the Whisperknife is not "nearly invulnerable" like the Master Infiltrator when he is impossible to catch. It could be damaged and hurt the same. It can be momentarily hampered through CCs. But it will not relent. Whatever you throw at him, as long as it is alive, he will quickly recover from its effects and come for you -- for vengeance is what drives it towards you.
■ Now, seemingly this effect might seem OP since it lasts as long as the mark is on. 100% CC resistance (half-duration), on top of class features(such as halflings) or additional CC resistances will effectively end most short-duration CCs very quickly. However CCs will still interrupt and hamper the WK, disturbing important power activation.
■ At this point, classes with powerful attacks could simply decide to melt it down before it arrives, dealing powerful attacks from range, or simply bashing it down if you are a GWF or a GF. It might get up twice as fast from your prones, but that doesn't mean it cannot be put down again. Not to mention no 100% deflection like ITC, which means all the damage will still go in.
■ That is why I have added in the 3/6/9% deflection rate against attacks coming from the marked target. It is not a big increase, but it will help somewhat.
■ Also, I've added in a 2 second root feature to teleport portion of the attack when used from stealth. This is admittedly for the purpose of giving a Whisperknife a reliable means to lock-down a target momentarily and deal additonal damage (since it cannot do the standard MI rotation and deal long, endless streams of damage, it needs a means to rely on spiking damage).
■ I've changed it from a stun to a root to give a chance for people who may actually react fast enough to instantly retaliate and ruin the WK's attempt to connect additional attacks when they are rooted. However, if not reacted fast enough a 2 second root is enough for most attacks to connect stably.
■ Unlike ITC, if there are other enemies around which also deal a CC on you, VP becomes useless. This is another one of the key features that balances out the seemingly overly powerful combat utility. True to the concept, the thirst for vengeance works against one at a time. The new VP may be very useful in with increased efficiency in individual encounters, but the WK will become as helpless it was if there are multiple enemies around. VP mark effects work only against that marked target alone. Against incoming damage/CC from other sources, no resistance, no deflection boost, absolutely nothing.
■ Also according to concept, the AoE attack has been changed to single target attack.
■ Finally, the charge. If the mark portion of VP gets above effects as suggested, it will become quite too powerful despite all the balancing elements, particularly in 1vs1 combat if the recharge time is reduced. However, with the current 16 second recharge time, a WK will not be able to use VP often enough even in 1vs1 encounters. Hence, I've figured a charge-system like Impact Shot could prove to be useful.
■ Two shots max, 4 second longer for each recharge and 1 charge short of Impact Shot, given how this particular paragon encounter will be quite powerful (I hope). 1 free charge from stealth same as Impact Shot.
CONCLUSION
■ If VP changes in the above manner as suggested, my opinion is;
Thank you for reading my wall of text. I really hope that the developers could redesign/revitalize a paragon choice which is currently dead, for all intents and purposes, and redress it as something that is as useful as MI, but still unique and different, not just another useless gimmick path that cannot function unless it simply copies MI build principles.
Cheers.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
It Works on Canceling :
Entangling Force
Opressive Force (it breaks the daze but since the daze reapplies it isnt worth using obviously)
It Breaks most dazes.
It breaks grasping roots
It breaks most stuns, not 100% sure about it breaking roar though, not sure why i don't see more "Pro pvpers" using roar, it is just about the greatest thing a GWF has.
It doesn't work while you are - Proned (Nothing works while prone - that is why it is the only real CC and the most OP thing in this game atm. Perma stealth ain't anything compared to a pure prone build from a warrior - if you get caught by prones twice you are usually dead or allowed to run away and be useless to your team for the next 20 seconds)
Although let it be noted with practice and timing you can activate it to tank a prone, the immunity seems to last about 1 sec
That is one of my favorite things to do if i need to stay on point and can't distance myself. Activate it as the prone comes , be immune then dodge immediately afterwords. Can't tell you how many GWFs fall for this and unload there entire rotation on an empty patch of ground
It doesn't work while you are immobilized with frost rays (Some times it does but it usually displays the message "This power can't be activated while immobilized" which just really gets me heated ... I can't use my CC break while I am CC'ed .... )
It doesn't work while the constricting vine spells actual vine pulse is on you(again it may sometimes, but usually it is a no go giving you a message saying you cant do that now)
Really this skill is great, It gets you from one side of a point to the other piggy backing off of your target and immediately dodging. The people dont expect and continue running towards where you were for a second. It is just unreliable.
It also makes perma stealths your personal toys. All you need to do is see them once, mark them, tele to them after there ITC is up and they restealth. Stealth as you teleport to them and unload with whatever, my personal fav is impact shot then tag 2 daggers in him to follow the dagger and continue IS him to get glow trail and eat his stealth) A good Whisper Knife is one of the easiest ways to deal with a perma stealth rogue. But it takes practice and patience and sadly, gear - like every game - gear is always the trump card. But just let your team mates know to follow the floating daggers and a perma is roadkill.
Once they fix it's weird targeting issues , and perfect its immunity and ability to activate it will be good. But if they want to keep its damage as low as it is then they need to reduce the cool down.
Hell I'd say lower the damage a bit and lessen the cool down a LOT, I would like to see a useful 6-7 second spell (probably 7 sec or so base value but 6 would be attainable with recovery and INT) on the Whisper Knife (Think take down or repel) But just the opposite of those effects, I think that there in it self is a good way to go about with a concept of balance.
I hope they fix it up soon, cuz I really like the play style of WK (I am barely in stealth at all - and I feel much more useful to my team and survive quite long for a class that supposedly "needs stealth to compete" And once you understand how a WK completely negates a perma you will see what I am talking about.
I only have like a 11.7k gear score, plaguefire and barkshield - workin on gettin better gear and some artifacts.
Using Blitz, VP and IS
Hateful Knives (with seething knives feat for the stealth regen, not razor action that thing is garbage)
I use WoB or Courage Breaker(both with feat for DoT after use, CB is so useful at times it is crazy)
Cos and Dis Strike
Completely scoundrel build, not a point anywhere else.
I believe we will start seeing more WKs soon, as soon as the players learn how effective they are against a perma stealth while also being very useful in group combat. (Not stabbing the air twice and then having to start all over becase the enemy moved away - over and over and over til they finally land it because the enemy is proned) Also IS is the ultimate NO to them doing DF. While they are ITC just mark them with VP and dance around, usually since they are waiting for cool downs they try and throw knives at you. Imagine who wins a thrown knife fight, the guy specced to stay invisible and use a mindlessly easy skill (PoTB + bilethorn) or they guy specialized in throwing daggers into your face? Once you get them into a throwing dagger contest it is over - they are running or dying.
PVPer rocking it Solo queue style since the dawn of Neverwinter
I had similar build on TR before IS nerf and VP ''fix''. It was really funny build for pug PvP. Sadly both these changes killed it.
Dude you are so delusional... I don't even... I'm saying this as a WK myself (Been a WK the SECOND it came out, love it and will never, ever respec back to MI. Disheartening strike is just too good)
Anyways, the stun from VP is literally garbage and not noticeable at all. An ITC-Bile rogue DESTROYS what you just described. It's a fact.
What you'd need to go is go ranged perma-stealth with Disheartening Strike/Cloud of steel. Gun > Knife logic is used here.
If two perma stealthers (One MI, one WK) go at it. Their respective path of the blade will drain each other's stealth. That leaves the two visible with a certain distance. Both of your at-wills at ranged, only one of his are. So you can bombard him from distance. A Perma stealth WK actually contests an MI perma. People just don't see it yet. Now that shocking is nerfed, they cannot one shot you anymore. They'd have to come close to you to land The Flurry. But you can just roll away and keep spamming knives. Impossible to catch doesn't last forever. If they try to re-stealth again. Do the same, and your respective path of the blade will drain each other's stealth again. Leaving both visible. Then the Gun > Knife situation starts again.
But VP/Impact shot? Really? That just doesn't work.
IS is good because it gives you 3 chances to get Action Rush to proc and always a guaranteed encounter that stuns from stealth, never need to worry about cool downs for an attack in stealth. Also Blitz can proc action rush when cast on anything or nothing, so can wicked reminder. Just some things I've noticed lately. That's another reason I like VP, its a double shot of trying to proc Action Rush, so all in all if you go from stealth opening with the marking part of VP then IS you have 7 encounters to unload all of which may proc action rush. It has been quite fun to play xD
I really hope they Fix VP though. I really love the skill, the DR it gives is nice and the ability to instantly get to anyone even an invisible TR is a god send. Just wish it actually worked while we were CC'ed. They could keep it the same and make it activatable WHILE PRONE, and it would be one of the best skills and worthy of its long cool down and low damage. But overall, just make it work properly and get rid of targeting issues.
Also let me teleport of ledges and such as deft strike does, it is very sad that it doesn't allow you to teleport up ledges, it just flashes black and goes on cooldown. (You can kind of teleport to the spires in the one Dom map, but you always instantly fall back to the ground)
PVPer rocking it Solo queue style since the dawn of Neverwinter
You clearly didn't understand what I said.
I will post videos if you need to see what I am talking about. You don't use VP for the stun.
You activate the teleport of VP while you aren't stealthed - THEN STEALTH IMMEDIATELY - it gives you the triple hit combo out of stealth because you activated it right BEFORE YOU STEALTHED. The IS is the Stun and guarantees some free CoS hits. Then you can Blitz or continue following him to plunk more IS or CoS in him to track him and drain his precious meter. The PotB and Bile dmg isnt enough to kill me by itself, I don't care about it at all. My Barkshield eats most of it for me and after this initial rush of him trying to win the war of staying invisible he is mine to kill or he is running away not capping or contributing in any way.
I have killed Perma Bilethorn rogues plenty with this. As those are the majority of TRs I even see in pvp these days.
I am not sure if you are assuming I start fights invisible or I try to stay invisible or something like that. I have no interest in perma stealth, it is cheesy and it is getting changed in some way anyhow so , stay ahead of the curve and find something new now. I guarantee if you guys try this and do it like that you will flush out perma and mess up their rotations and stamina use something fierce. Leading to their inevitable retreat or death. *Guarantee i generate AP faster than any perma stealth rogue* I have so many more encounters to pop off and proc AR it's silly. When it comes down to it I usually have a daily up for 1v1's - it is what I save them for. I can whittle them down while they are in stealth thinking they have the advantage and as soon as their ITC ends after I have flushed them out I can count their dodges and either prone HK stun lock combo or just tele to them and instantly have WOB pop off when I show up in their face. xD
The most useful aspect of VP is it allows you to do things like activate stealth or use some encounters successfully during its actual teleportation part. Doing the VP tele and activating WoB at the same time is always satisfying.
PVPer rocking it Solo queue style since the dawn of Neverwinter
Your optimism warms my heart. But let's be real. They don't give a dam about us WhisperKnives
I do it quick first, then really slow then quick again.
VP MARK, teleport and stealth while doing this, land into an impact shot stealthed with the three hit combo of VP. Thats a good bit of stealth drain right there and more than enough for me to fully stack my plaguefire on them and keep hitting them with CoS and chasing the floating daggers. To further harass with IS Blitz and more CoS until I see them. Then its time to mark while they are ITC and do it all over again when they stealth. Of course always throwing Dis Strike in between every couple of other daggers or powers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0Vh_QweJPA&feature=youtu.be
PVPer rocking it Solo queue style since the dawn of Neverwinter
We get what do you wanna say, but after nerfs its not effective enough to be competive in PvP. Combat / Hybrid / Nature HR can counter perma much better while he is still useful for team. I really liked full range WK, he had dots, nuke, mobility and with good roll & recovery eq perma stealth, only cons were unnecessarily long animations and absence of CC immunity but imho WK got killed by IS nerf and while VP does have now incredibly long CD there is no place for him in PvP.
Ofc you can try it but I don't believe there is now any other effective build for TR then perma / semi-perma because his encounters are doing terrible dmg.
I 100% agree with the ridiculous over embellished and long winded animations for VP Blitz and even IS. They really need to do something about them, crank up the speed of it all. If a GWF can lift his arm and instantly knock down everyone with no tell of any kind of animation until its too late (the little shields flying out) I should , as a whisper knife, be able to whip my daggers both elegantly and incredibly fast.
Like I said it has worked more often than not on either killing a much better geared perma TR or forcing him to run with his tail between his legs because he is out of his 2 attacks that actually land on the enemy. And obviously it isn't as efficient as the current OP easy mode build but I'll tell you one thing, it is a hell of a lot more fun and challenging.
*I know there are some really good TRs that can actually use DF effeciently, but most of what I see is people stabbing the air twice and then having to roll or walk and start over, I get so mad at my perma tr team mates because I am fighting 2 or 3 people and he is walking around having a heated battle with the air and consistently whiffing on his actualy flurry.*
Anything that is said about whisperknife should automatically be noted that it isn't being talked about for high end competitive pvp. I will never have the gear for that nor would I want to be a part of it. I solo PUG and solo PUG only unless my friend wants to play a few matches then we queue as a duo, but his gear is even worse than mine
We all know if you want to be high end pvp be a deflect pathfinder HR, destroyer GWF or Perma TR. But some of us don't care about being the best, we just like to play and have fun and come up with our own ways to play. Using any of these "best" or "pro" builds just shows the lack of creativity that D&D is supposed to have. People only choose what is OP and easy because they want to win and feel like they are really, extremely good at the game.
PVPer rocking it Solo queue style since the dawn of Neverwinter
I wanna thank you for explaining your strategy. I didn't know you can stealth during the VP teleport part - I think it will prove very useful against other TRs.
It's really great that you found something working for you and you have fun with it. Because I also agree, that not everyone wants to be a top PvPer. Sure, against PvP- and win-focused people and builds your build might prove not being (as) useful, but if that isn't even your goal - what's the argument?!
Play what you like.
@Quitegonejin
I mostly PVE though.
Just LOL....
Seriously, good luck beating a perma or ANYTHING (Maybe a CW) with this. I don't want to be mean but god dam... This really isn't viable in higher level PVP. Maybe with some HAMSTER pugs. And I saw Blitz in your bar. BLITZ... IN PVP. I'm done here, leaving thread xD
Can't tell you how many KB's blitz lets you get, even on those great perma rogues. Blitz from stealth on GWF to slow then impact pushes to keep his TR interrupting and shakey. Then dodge and fight. Easy peasy
PVPer rocking it Solo queue style since the dawn of Neverwinter
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
WN has been exactly this to me. Experimenting, dying and trying (some ppl laugh at you, some people are curious)
I haven't been able to use VP very effectively in PvP, do I dismissed it...maybe take another look now!
LOL I know, how dare any of us try anything new.. until we are forced to with stealth changes and other possible adjustments.
WK has been the same for me, experimenting, trying, dying. But also finding some neat new tricks and a totally diff play style that is very fun and yes it can be quite effective once you understand how to play it. *Think about the diff of perma rogues that are good with DF compared to those that should really be trying something else.*
Against any class that doesn't severely out gear me I always have an upper hand because they have no friggin idea what is going on. I have had people say WTH or WTF to my HK stunning combo because they don't get it, mainly because no one uses it ever. With the feat it becomes a shadow strike-esque stealth regen over time effect based on damage being done. It is super useful. Especially since You will usually have Dis strike on multiple people it fills even faster than you see it filling on me in the video.
HK has an 82 foot range It is so long it is great. Also WK can hit the people trying to high ground, permas cant do anything about it without having to walk up there.
Here is an example of a HK combo and just to show the amount of AP gen you get with Blitz, IS and VP.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=411tZgmhaz8&feature=youtu.be
I start at about 5 secs in, opening with a daily to clear the orb and show the rate of it filling.
I end up doing 2 more dailys in the next minute(actually a few seconds under a minute), use last daily at about 1min 2 sec
I am telling you there are other ways to play, open up your eyes and think. Spend time testing and trialing. There isn't always going to be someone to tell you how to gear and build and play especially once perma becomes a thing of the past.
Some things to note.
IS always gives AP even the free shot.
Blitz gives the same AP no matter how many targets you hit.
VP only gives 1% AP no matter what on the mark attack, and none for the follow up attack. But they both can proc Action Rush.
PVPer rocking it Solo queue style since the dawn of Neverwinter