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Why is permastealth still a thing?
gigarayzor
Member Posts: 44 Arc User
It's not fun for anyone, why does this still exist?
Post edited by gigarayzor on
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■ gap-closers on long recharge time
■ slow and sluggish melee attacks, particularly at-wills Gloaming Cut and Duelist's Flurry
■ all attack/action self-roots
■ no major CCs
■ impotent and useless combat debuffs against opponent
■ no major defense utilities on self
■ short-CC protection (MIs), or none at all (WKs)
...hence, a TR seeking to survive, close in to enemy, deal damage, etc. -- has no choice but to rely on stealth. Even with stealth, the class is so sub-par in every way that you can use the stealth factor to deal some damage to the enemy, but then as soon as stealth is over the tables are turned and you're toast. No, less than toast. More like breadcrumbs.
Hence, the reliance on stealth, longer stealth, and continuously refreshing stealth.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Keep on.
WTB Class Reroll please
* Cloth armor
* Only two dodges
* Low DPS encounters
* Low HP
The majority of TR damage comes from their at-wills. The best, Duelist Fury, starts with two really slow swings before doing its real damage. At one time the TR was the single target boss until a long series of nerfs. They will soon be nerfing stealth which, at the point, I see no future for them in PvP (as it will kill even the non-permas). Permas are already going out of style as the SE nerf (which was needed) was their bread-n-butter since they sacrificed damage for faster encounter recovery in order to stay in stealth.
Hopefully, a dps-check or more depletion of stealth meter while attacking would be in order. Get on it cryptic!
If anything, there is no reason why TRs should be so barren and devoid of CCs.
The TR I picture to be balanced and fun to play would be the type that uses short-duration stealth to either momentarily escape an attack or buff oneself to land big damage (not necessary one-shot level, just enough to matter... 8~10k would be enough), and then still be a competent fighter while unstealthed using an array of combat buffs, debuffs, CCs -- basically the use of "active abilities" as both offense and defense, instead of using stealth -- a passive defense + offense -- that is simply "click and effect", requiring no real technique or skill associated with it.
For instance, a mock battle of a GWF vs. (my imaginary) TR, the fight would be like:
■ TR enters stealth, gains the initiative
■ TR approaches and lands Dazing Strike
■ new DS uses new feat effects (when TR lands daze, it has 20/25/30/35/40% chance to apply 50% slow for the duration)
■ GWF dazed/slowed, TR lands at-will attacks
■ GWF goes Unstoppable, attempts Takedown
■ TR uses new encounter "Riposte", goes into counter-attack posture, counters/reflects effects of TD onto GWF
■ GWF resists since he was in Unstoppable, but TR has escaped one prone
■ GWF attempts FSL, TR dodges and evades it
■ Unstoppable comes off, GWF, furious, sprints towards TR
■ TR anticipates this, uses Dazing Strike again
■ TR lands more hits, Unstoppable comes up again, this time GWF succeeds in TD, then uses IBS
■ The new feat "Emergency Escape" (replacing Saboteuer's final tier "Ruthless Efficiency") kicks in. This new feat allows the TR a 10% chance to immediately recover from all control effects, roll away and go into a very short, 3 second stealth (independant of the stealth bar, does not use it) when hit by an attack that deals more than 25% of the TR's HP with a single attack
■ From this stealth, TR uses Blitz, new effects of Blitz -- root while used from stealth
■ TR uses this root to try and distance himself more, buy more time until stealth bar up
■ Stealth bar ready, goes into stealth
■ GWF chases, gets hit by Dazing Strike from stealth, TR lands extra at-will hits
■ GWF recovers, tries a Roar
■ TR anticipates, used Riposte, reflected the effects of Roar right back onto the GWF
...and so forth.
In this example the TR uses the encounters Blitz, Dazing Strike and an imaginary "Riposte". No Shadow Strike or ITC. But each of the encounters have some redeeming, truly useful effects. There are new feats which assist much better in actual combat.. and etc etc.. Also, the new encounter "Riposte" is basically an active defense. It's not passive. You must time it, but if timed right, very rewarding results = result of actual skill and experience.
It is in this aspect, NW TRs are much too weak. Their out-of-stealth combat is bland, mediocre, and inefficient. They are not fast, they don't have CCs, no special utility/encounters despite being a "tricky" class. They can't survive two seconds without ITC when visible, compare this with the amount of endless prones and CCs a GWF simply rains down on its opponent, never allowing the target out of melee range through at-will gap-closers, and simply attack, attack, attack, attack until enemy drops dead.
It's as if they gave all the combat utility/mobility that the TR needed, and crammed it into the base defense/damage of a fighter class, and made it into the GWF. That's what it is.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
TR is still strong in PvP as everybody can see in the leaderboard, or who plays some premades, or who just "pugs".
The problem is, people try to go the most efficient and "OP" way which is perma stealth. Most TRs are used to run to enemy home and block that point for long time, and killing stuff while doing this. I have hardly ever seen an ambitious TR going burst dmg and play kinda burst dmg support role in mid.
All they do is what is the easiest way to own and win. Nothing wrong with that, but pls dont say, perma is the only way because TRs are so weak and nerfed. This is silly. Just ask a Cw, or a GF, or a DC what it feels like to really struggle for a place in pvp. And stop the nerf fest as the whining, both sides!
I play a 'Combat Rogue' and I have zero significant burst damage unless a daily is up. I basically harass opposing players and maybe finish off wounded targets while waiting for my AP to build. On the slowest AP building class in the game. My best non-daily burst ability is popping ITC when another Rogue hits me with DF and reflecting the damage back at him via Fey Thistle.
It is theoretically possible to put together a build that does respectable damage through the heavily nerfed Lashing Blade but to do so you have to sacrifice a lot of survivability - to the point where your combat lifetime resembles that of a mayfly. Unless this is changed you will ALWAYS see far more stealth builds than anything else.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
It is only OP because CW players like yourself don't seem to want to be bothered with slotting Steal Time in one of your 4 encounter slots. Instead you stand like a rock in matches, finger hovering over the button to fire Entangling Force, while a perma TR slowly pokes you to death. TRs have received nerf after nerf to accommodate people who fail to learn how to PvP. TR's don't have your CC capability or even close to the burst damage you have. This has left them the only option, staying constantly in stealth, as the only viable build. Here's a thought: go in to a match with your coveted CW and try to win it using just Magic Missile and Shield. Sound like a bad idea? Welcome to the world of TRs.
No they shouldn't mess @ all . They messed up already way too much taking away from us every single drop of DPS .
....they both get interrupted
WTB Class Reroll please
It's really as simple as : Bait and Switch restores your stealth meter when your meter is already above 50%. Tightens up how long super stealth can last, doesn't affect every TR in the game, doesn't change how Stealth works entirely, forces "perma" to no longer be actually permanent. Just a quick slice off of perma-stealth is all that is needed, if anything at all.
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
Is this a joke, sure you do less damage, but constant little damage (DoT) is also deadly to any player. Perma has to go, bring back normal rogues ala D&D!
I only have now 1! normal rogue in my guild, everyone else respecd to perma or rolled a new char, easy win, no skill needed, bulletproof game play and good AD income by soloing CN, that is why prices are so high for some Ancient stuff.
Robert E. Lee
I only believe in statistics that I doctored myself.
Winston Churchill
The human race is a herd. Here we are, unique, eternal aspects of consciousness with an infinity of potential, and we have allowed ourselves to become an unthinking, unquestioning blob of conformity and uniformity. A herd. Once we concede to the herd mentality, we can be controlled and directed by a tiny few. And we are.
David Icke
Perma stealth rogues in a pvp game is a joke, you can as well buy a new pc game find cheat code set yourself to immortal and run around killing mobs about the same challange.
I do understand that playing perma might be the most effective way of ensuring you a win in pvp with maximum kills compared to deaths.
But comon lets face it you run around invisbile in a pvp match where you can hit others and they cant even see you .........
Give tr some solid mechanics to fight with limited stealth. ITC mechanics is a good start add some immunity to ccs only or escape from cc, then adds some nice crit hits which can be done from stealth but attack will end stealth like the hr ambush.
Tbh i dont care what you give them as long as you get rid of this redicules perma stealth <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> :-).
(and yes tr seriously need some upgrades in pve together with gf hr)
Best
Just make a perma stealth rogue . I dare you . Go and play with this minimal dot dmg and the freaking 50 % nerf on every single skill being nervous for not making a mistake cause even if 0.5 sec on our rotation goes wrong we are dead . Stop trying to destroy everything that can kill you and use your brain to face the permas . Aoe skills , Interrupts , Lanterns , Roar , Cws aoe skills , other permas , Surge of the gf and several other ccs are only few of the ways to track a perma . Not mentioning the OP Hrs that lands with their close combat skills more dmg than a " DPS" Build tr and manage to walk huge distances and get us off stealth . Neither i will mention that CCs work on ITC . SO YEAH .Let's destroy completely the class .I myself am a Hybrid of Perma - Dps with high regen build . Why should i change my build just because some pugs can't think any of the above solutions ?
Either you like being immortal having the advantage of being able to just vanish and run away when the heat turns up or you are just not very good.
There is a reason perma hide tr build are the build for the most qqs (yes even more then the famous gwfs).
I face perma trs that are very far from being easy to kill each day, if you are easy to kill you sure lack something alot of other perma tr has found out.
Bile/perma is popular for a reason and in pugs having a deacent perma/bile tr is almost a sure win as he will backcap the other team without hope for them to take it back without having at least 2 persons at their point.
If you defend perma hide builds i suggest you find yourself a nice pc game unlock the cheat *immortal* and run around having a great time.
1st . I am not a perma . 2nd I will gladly accept nerf on TC skill ( NOT THAT MUCH THOUGH) if we take our former dps burst back . And ofc i will defend the build i am playing since it's pretty much Killable by player that actually think . If you ain't one of them ain't my prob mate .In conclusion i will add that i was playing L Series since beta of L1 which is considered the father of every single MMO . And guess what . It wasn't a pve based game . It was a pvp - pk based mmo with million players playing it back then .Swtor . Another decent mmo had stealthers .Wow has semi hybrid stealth builds.Aion has a semi perma stealth build capability .And finally the new upcoming king of MMos . Archage will have perma stealth too . So pls . educate yourself .
Wrong focus, IMO.
The level of "burst" us TRs used to do before the nerfs were plain obscene. Like mentioned many times, by all means and purposes the word to decribe the old TRs would be "one-shot". And there is no PvP around a "one-shot" class. There are only victims.
If you really think about it, TRs aren't exactly weak in the offense.
Generally, too many players in NW PvP have this warped view on "acceptable damage levels", because obviously they have been way too much influenced by the impact of certain classes dealing broken amounts of damage through OP powers:
■ Lashing Blade used to do over 20k easily without any specific "LB-oriented build"
■ IS spamming would yield 8k~9k crits, and with a bit of luck, four timed lobs of IS would deal over 20k in around 3~4 seconds.
■ Shoxecution was simply an "I WIN" button, back in its heyday
■ Ice Knife used to hit 15~20k easily
■ Currently the bullchi* IBS can hit for 15~25k depending on gear/situation
...these, and a lot more. Frankly, none of these powers can be considered normal. They are all OP in some way, and getting hit with powers like that leaves a big mental impact. It makes you think that doing those numbers is the only viable amount of damage in PvP, and anything less is all weak and useless.
But if you think about it, it is not. In a game with average 30k HP for pvp builds (some more serious about HP can go over 35k .. but..), and attack that deals around 5~6k damage is 20% of one's HP. Theoretically, 5 of those 6k attacks will bring down a 30k opponent. Just five attacks (not counting healing/regen factor). As long as one is guaranteed a certain amount of freedom to move around and attck an individual, TRs have plenty of offensive encounters which does that damage.
That, my fellow TRs, is the real problem, isn't it?
It's not that TR offense is weak, but it's that TRs are so weak in support/CC/self-protection/melee efficiency, that no TR can move around, fight it out, counter enemy CC attempts, and survive long enough to use melee encounters that do good damage. This is the problem. It always has been.
Why was the TR so strong despite this inherent, broken character design?
■ Because TRs used to have one-shot capabilities. Just end the fight without even going into a fight in the first place, so you don't have to mingle with the opponent in actual combat.
■ ...after the nerf on damage, because TRs developed perma/semi-perma tactics. Either remain invisible totally, or only show yourself when ITC. Hence, give up damage to become unkillable.
IMO, these two reasons are not the way. It's simply smothering up the faulty and weak TR character design with game-breaking OP features that causes more problems than those it actually solves. Spaking as someone with a conscience and in terms of balance for the greater good, frankly, there is no way but to admit that both the "one-shot" level of burst damage and the "perma" level of defense, is broken level OP.
Fellow, TRs, we should not be asking to "get our old OP one-shot burst" back. We should be asking the developers to make the TR a more viable, solid combatant overall so it doesn't frickin' need to rely on broken and OP mechanics that frustrates so many people, to be viable in PvP in the first place.
That's what us TRs should be asking for -- not asking for reverting back to the old bullcrap OP class from the current bullcrap OP class.
...
Wanna hear my story?
TRs, ask not for the developers to grant us some gimmicky OP stuff to just smother our shortcomings.
Let us ask them to make us better combatants overall, so we don't need to rely on OP burst damage or OP stealth duration to fight, to become a class with many versatile tools to help us fight better even if with limited stealth.
That's what we should be asking.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
The devs will never do it . They will just pick the easiest for them option and totally nerf stealth w/o giving us any evasive capabilities or combat reliability .In my humble opinion nerfing TC so it gives something like 50 -60 % stealth loss from incoming dmg instead of the OP (Yes i admit it's too much ) 90 % it has right now would be the best option . If they change anything else they may cripple the class itself .
We can still hope.
Somehow, once they do decide to redesign some classes (IMO maybe in a couple of years... lol..), many people have many cool ideas on what the new TR -- not OP, but wicked cool and fun to use -- should be like.
Me, I'd like to request for more CCs, for starters. Heck, just change the old crappy "1 second" or "2 second" types of worthless CCs into respectable "3 seconds" and that alone would immediately start changing stuff for the better.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
And they should make @ least the pvp items BOA .I may wish to make a 2nd tr and i will be forced to pvp once again to get him profound set ...(EMO QQ ) :cool: