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Champion Mage set plus stacked up recharge speed?
ghoulz66
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,748 Arc User
Would it be reasonable to make a build that reduces recharge speed as much as possible? Such as choosing a sun elf with 25 Int/25 Wisdom, massive amount of recovery and a set that further reduces the recharge of the spell mastery slot?
Could it be possible to kite and spam something like steal time like crazy this way?
Could it be possible to kite and spam something like steal time like crazy this way?
Post edited by ghoulz66 on
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Encounter Ability Cooldown Time = InitialCooldownTime/(1+StatBonus+FeatBonus+0.36*Recovery^1.5/(LevelConstant+Recovery^1.5))
So if you had a net cooldown reduction of 100% (you won't get that much) your base cooldown times would be cut in half instead of removed entirely. The base CD on Steal Time 22s iirc, so I don't think you'll be able to keep enemies slowed with it alone no matter what you do. Stacking chill would help fill the gaps though.
You sure it's half? I had steal time cut by 40% at only 47% cooldown reduction.
I normally use this stuff in PvE over and above High Viz which I have a set of too. And that's pretty much what it does. It gives my Sudden Storm a 6 second recast time. So that power is almost always up. Plus it adds a 5% damage increase to that spell. While its true you can use this with other spells. This is the one I've found most effective.
Another one I've found to be most effective is Chill Strike on Mastery for the AoE effect. Its lower damage but Sudden Storm has a line effect as to where the Chill Stike has one that's wider area but a 5 target limit. This one is almost 5 seconds on the recast on it.
So the DPS increase is very good, but again depends on what you slot there. Because its pretty fast and a nice increase. Best use I've found so far is actually Sudden Storm.
I have to say you don't need to kite in this game.
The way it works in this game is to circle strafe and then casually teleport to the side as soon as they get close enough. This tactic alone allows the use of what it is you were attempting to do in most circumstances and you won't have to use Steal Time in Mastery slot.
Long answer - When I first rolled my CW I did so with the intention of going against the grain. Everyone was focusing on damage, I thought the same as you; I would be an amazing controller. I may not do as much damage as other CW's but teammates will appreciate me for constantly stunning/proning/choking stuff. I thought that would be a more fun way to play so I went for wisdom over charisma and began to stack silvery enchantments.
Boy did that turn out to be an epic failure.
The equations that govern cooldown time are designed to make recovery completely worthless beyond around 3k. As in, TOTALLY WORTHLESS. Here's the math:
Steal time has a base cooldown time of 19.7 seconds. With 19 wisdom and several cooldown feats equipped the cooldown time went down to 17.4 (2.4 second reduction). Then, giving myself 3,000 recovery the cooldown time went down to 14.6 seconds (another 2.8 seconds off). So far so good. After that? Failure. If I want to reduce the cooldown time by ONE more second to 13.6 you want to guess how much recovery I would need? I would need 9,000 recovery. And what is worse is that is for the ability with the longest cooldown time. For abilities with lower cooldown times you'll get even less time knocked off per point of Recovery invested.
A picture is worth a thousand words.
Focusing on recovery is a waste. Especially with module 3 coming out tomorrow. In module 3 for every 160 points of power you have you'll do 1% more damage.
Running around being purely a controller is an unattainable goal in Neverwinter. The developers have not given you that as a viable option.
Yeah I think everyone finds this one out sooner or later.
And its hard too, because you'll see newbies running around saying... But... But... But... it says CONTROL Wizard on it...
Yeah it's false advertizing.... and they really should not have named the class that. Honestly.... Sorcerer or Wizard would be more appropriate. The average person would not have been so confused by the title and confuse it with what they want it to be... vs what it really is.
I think that was the biggest mistake on this one is listening to the way the name sounds rather than actually looking at the actual powers and how they work togather.
Scorching Burst
Storm Pillar
CoI off tab
RoE
Sudden Storm
Fanning the Flame
Well no not really.... we're just not controllers.
You really don't see it until you start to group with other classes and see that a lot of theirs are just as strong as ours. There's just not much difference.
All we ever had in the first place was AoE damage with some control components tacked on for good measure, just like everyone else, except we have mostly AoEs they have mostly single target damage. And even they have AoEs that hit 3-5 targets with control components.
We're no more a controller than any other class.
The REAL POINT I was trying to make is that Control is an inherent part of our spells and there is a major misconception that a Control Wizard can focus only on control and somehow make all the CW haters suddenly like you. I have contril on every one of my normal encounters...coi on tab...chilling cloud...shard..steal time...even sudden storm refreshes chill. Take the "control" out of these powers and see how far you get.
Well you're quite right, but... you keep forgetting that all the other classes have those too.
Whether its the GWFs and their prones, stuns, and slows an cleaves to the Cleric Throws, Stuns, and knockbacks.
Really... we're just not a controller any moreso than any other class.
What we've really got is large area AoEs and burst damage, we just hit more targets at once.
That's what really differentiates us from the other classes, and that's pretty much it. They've got all the single target damage that far outstrips ours... we just hit a lot of targets at once.
In the end, we're just AoE mages and that's all we ever were.
Hang on hang on. Niadan's point was that taking the control out of all those spells would lead to a lot of dead CWs (which it would). Unless you're 1-shotting everything, stuff "not controlled" is stuff busy working on burying you. Steal time does a fair bit of damage, sure, but the main advantages of it are the crazy number of procs of "other stuff" it can stack, and the stun at the end, which gives you breathing space to prepare other spells. If all it did was damage + procs, you'd quite often find yourself at the centre of an angry monster dogpile.
Bringing in the fact that "other classes can do knockdowns and stuns and stuff" is pretty reaching, too. If you bring a DC, do you automatically expect them to have chains and sunburst slotted, and to spamcast break the spirit in divinity for the stun?
No, because that's merely "something they CAN do", and nowhere near a primary focus of their class. And they'll have to leave a lot of debuffs and heals/mitigation at home to bring that much stun/snare/knockback, which would make you wonder why they were even bothering. Also, the constant divine sunbursts would make everyone else very, very angry.
Ditto for a GWF or GF bringing a bar full o' knockdowns. Sure, that's something they can do, but it's not their primary focus (in PvE at least) and they'll be gimping themselves by doing so. And sometimes gimping the team, too. I can't be the only one who's had monsters conveniently punted back out of the way of a shard by an overly enthusiastic melee tank.
CWs are pretty much the only class that can spam AoE stuns and snares WHILE ALSO doing a ton of damage. Because that IS our primary focus. If we focus on control, we get damage for free. If we focus on damage, we get control for free. They're basically synonymous for the great majority of our skills.
Hehe, you're still stuck on a name. .....And you missed my point as well. I actually Agreed that Niadan was correct... he just left something out... its not our "focus" its what happends when people get stuck on a name.
If they weren't called "Cleric" you WOULD see them running around like that, running around thinking their primary job was Crowd Control... and so would other people.
Call them "Control Cleric" and suddenly you're going to see a lot of people doing JUST THAT, and suddenly making the exact same mistake. Then people would wonder why they're not "controlling the crowd" instead of healing and buffing.
Because they CAN...
Our specialty is not control. Its actually AoE damage thats what we've always been. People just got stuck on a name.
Have you ever grouped with a good GWF team?
That's exactly what they do is spam knockdowns and cleaves. and YES in PvE. I had been in IWD for so long I hadn't grouped in a normal way for a long time. But just recently, to pass the time I started running GG dungeons again, the last party I was in was a 3GWF/1CW/DC team.
And that's pretty much exacty what they did. All they wanted was my Singularity... they handled all the CC themselves. I didn't haven to lift a finger. All I had to do was Sing and Debuff Mobs and Nuke (Yes with FtF(Mastery), CoI, Shards).
Mind you I was built at the time as an MoF.
The only thing about us that is "different" is that we've got "Control" in our name... we're no more able to control things than any other class.
"All I did was singularity"
"All I did was SINGULARITY"
Seriously how is this not somehow striking you as crowd control? Ask yourself exactly how effective those GWFs would've been if they'd had to run around spamming "Come and get it" to bunch up enemies (and wasting an encounter slot to bring "come and get it").
It more or less sounds like you got a team of PvP-specced GWFs, if I'm honest.
Also, you still took CoI and shard, I note.
Encounters: One knockback, one stun (one is PBAoE, one is single target, both require divinity). One snare.
Dailies: One prone (single target, terrible) and one knockdown (very small AoE for the knockdown). And those are both dailies, which, while hallowed ground and divine armour exist, are very very bad choices of daily for dungeons.
Contrast this with how many heals, buffs, debuffs and mitigations DCs have.
Basically you COULD, if you wanted, make a DC with a full bar of controlling abilities, but only just, and they'd be awful.
Now let's look at CW encounters....actually, it would be easier to consider CW encounters that DON'T have a control component.
...sudden storm, ray of enfeeblement. Or if MoF, substitute SS for FtF.
Well, that was easy: two. Out of eleven.
Dailies? Um..all of them have control elements.
OK! Now how many AoE heals do CWs have? Heh...
There's a reason why people think CWs are better at control than DCs, and why DCs are better at healing, and it isn't because of the name.
GLAD you brought that up...
Because they did at first get annoyed with me for using CC... I was attempting to use FI in place of it but it hosed up their CC manuevers. And they got annoyed with me for hosing up THEIR CC hehe. So I switched to Sing to please them, and line them up for... the GWF's CC... lol.
Funny that huh?
And For the record... it was CoI UNTABBED... so no slow effect or Chill.
As an MoF... since you were unaware.... you run FtF on the Mastery tab. With proper feating its got an even more powerful Debuff than CoI... and... you can use them both togather...
I swear its like you guys never group with other classes, and somehow assume ours is the best control because we're "CONTROL" Wizards.
When in reality other classes are just as much controllers as we are.
Neither of those two have ever, ever, been anything even close to as effortlessly stunning/moving/dazing/freezing/repelling/proning/etc as my CW. I also have one of each of the others, but they're not even close to decked out yet, so it didn't seem fair to compare.
If you've got the time, please explain how any other single class can
A) gather 15 monsters into one tight ball, and then
Bonus points if you can manage to explain how a TR would do it.
Frontline surge, Bull strike and Indomitable Strength put the foes away (up to 5, 1 and 1 foes respectively). That can make some good damage, and can give you a second to heal yourself, but they won´t control a plaetora of mobs, and more often than not you will hear a mate saying "Don´t move the mobs!, You made me miss an ability!". You can´t really have any control of mobs if they are spreaded around and you can´t hit them all. You and your party will spend more time and potions if you try to control just that way. Shards will also sepparate mobs, but they can also hit any number of foes, and the damage can´t be compared. So yes, GWF/GF have CC, but do they manage to keep the mobs in an area so they can maximize their dps? NO. They will spread the mobs around, and ranged ones will still be away. Would you put your eggs in a DC to keep the mobs controlled? NO. Seeing some chains from time to time is not enough to keep a good bunch of mobs under control. That doesnt mean it isnt useful, but you just can´t rely on them all the time, and the area is not too big. CC in HR is for PVP, and they will allways do more damage if they can focus on spamming split shot, leaving the CC part to the ones that can do it better. As long as I know, TRs have no CC
Singularity has no rival, and then come the other abilities. CW´s CC keep the foes together, and that´s what make them shine. The only way of CC (if you can consider it CC) that can look a singularity to the eyes is aggro, but you know, aggro doesnt make any damage. It is needed in places like FH for kiting (just cos ice elementals can´t be "controlled" other way), but that´s it. I´d be glad to see GFs being able to "tank" as we are used to in other games, but that´s not happening here right now. Obviously, a GWF will keep pulls around him via aggro, but he needs his movility to put them together in the first place, their abilities will put them away, and at the end of the day, they will do much more damage and survive better with a CW doing the CC job.
So, the word Control is totally right IMO on a Control Wizard. Saying otherwise just cos other classes have some CC is like calling a HR fighter just cos they can use blades.
I've got it! In Spellplague Caverns run way ahead of your party and aggro a big mob. Then jump over the edge of the path into the stuff that kills you. 15 monsters follow you in a tight ball...then die.
What do I win?
Well I don't know how you do it either as a CW,
I can get there with Singularity, Steal Time, Sudden Storm, Then Shards... but after that they're all spread out again and moving in less than 4 seconds.
I have no idea why you think we "lock" down ANY mass mobs...
I've sure never been able to do it alone for more than 4 seconds... UNLESS there's another CW there to take over while your recast timers are on CD.
Ergo... you can't do it any better than any other class....
Aside from recovery, is cooldown from int/wis and the set bonus affected by diminishing returns!?
Have to address this. Ok, so for a start you're using sudden storm in that rotation, one of the few powers CWs have that has no control component. Good choice for damage, bad bad choice for control. And you've only used 3 encounters, so...uh...put something on tab? Might help.
So.
Pop a sing. Wait a couple of seconds for stuff to start getting clumped, pick a fat dude who won't die instantly, stick tabbed CoI on him. Dodge in, whack icy terrain down under the sing. As far as I can tell, IT will start ticking on everything in the sing and building up stacks, as will CoI, and the CoI debuff will be hitting everything. By the time monsters hit the ground, they're about one or two ticks from freezing, and IT is down anyway so they can't move fast. Now hit them with steal time, which as they are frozen, you can more or less do at your leisure. When they're stunned, summon and push a shard. By this point you should have CoI and IT back from cooldown, and be pretty close to having another sing ready (though at this point an OF would probably be more useful. And fun. But Sing would keep the GWFs happier).
And that's all assuming anything is left alive at this stage, because as (I hope) you're in a party and not trying to solo the dungeon yourself, you've kept monsters bunched up for mass party DPS-fest funz, all of whom have been benefiting from your nicely spread debuffs from CoI (and if you have a PF and HV set, then wooo). And during this entire period, these monsters have effectively been incapable of doing ANYTHING.
No other class can bring this utility, and I really don't understand why this isn't screamingly obvious.
Tried it... failed...
I have played every build known to man and even rebuilt my character ON THE SPOT in dungeons to find a tactical combination to succeed, I know this character inside and out in ways you've never even conceived of.
Mobs never freeze, nor do they "lock down".
Steal Time stops them for 3 seconds, then they continue on in your direction, or multiple directions, COI on Mastery does not stop them or keep them from moving or spreading out again.
Nor does it keep them "klumped up".
You have one spell at that point which is Shards, this will prone them for roughly 1 second before they're back on their feet. You've just bought yourself roughly 4 seconds of "locked down" "clumped up" time. And they will not be dead by that point unless you're either WAY overgeared for the dungeon.
That's all you've got.
There's not and never has been any kind of "control". You've got the equivalent of All other classes Knockdowns and Stuns. That's all you've got that's all you've ever had....
3 seconds... and 1 second, then 10-12 second recast timers.
The ONLY actual control power you REALLY have is... Singularity... a DAILY.
That's IT, that's all you've ever had as a "Control" Wizard that's any different than any other class for grouping.
The class YOU and apparently EVERY OTHER PERSON in the game..... wants the CW to be... is NOT this one....
The nice thing about all that I outlined above is that it's entirely gear-independent. Control-wise, a freshly dinged 60 in blues with a blue waters and no boons can be every bit as useful to a team as a fully decked HV/GPF/3Artifact/R10Radiants monster CW. All you gain by upping your stats is extra damage, which is nice, but strictly speaking unnecessary.
Bear in mind: I am not a very good CW. I only JUST got my HV set (haven't tried it in a dungeon yet), I'm not minmaxing rotations to capitalise on mastery stacks or micromanaging my chill or timing encounters for EotS procs, I'm basically just spamming stuff in the manner outlined above, keeping the monsters controlled, the GWFs happy, and teleporting out of red. And yet still, even with all those caveats, I am staggered by how facerollingly easy it is to manipulate the entire battlefield while also outputting insane damage.
In that way you're actually correct,
but... its not those other CW powers that do any of that.
You can build yourself ten ways from sideways and throw in any given power in a low gear score... and.... control the entire thing with nothing other than... .... Singularity.
The rest of those spells are merely mosquito bites control wise and dont' lock anything down and only delay the mobs for a few seconds at best. And other classes have the same things. Your other stuff just is not very effective in doing any kind of sustained control and never has been. We're just not controllers in that sense and never have been.
If you stripped every power from the CW and left it with ONLY Singularity... no other class in the game would even know the difference. That's how minimal your actual control powers outside of that really are.
The rest is all AoE damage with only brief 1 second control components with 10-12 second recast timers. Mostly 1 second, but we do have one that's a whopping 3 seconds (Steal Time).
We've got some GREAT SINGLE target control, like Entangling Force and Chill Strike.... but those are single target only and pretty useless in mass crowds and all of them are low level spells. The high level group play stuff is all AoE.
This is the reality of the CW.