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GF gets actually buffed in Mod3
lamminatboden
Member Posts: 51 Arc User
There are a lot of threads already, that discuss the pros and cons of GFs and wether they are underpowered or not. Basically, every thread in the barracks about GF turns into that discussing if it is around long enough. I don't want to make such another thread, I just want to point out a huge GF buff in the upcoming module, that is a bit hidden.
Power is going to be better in Mod3. -> GF are going to be better
Because GFs naturally have tons of power (due to a feat), more than any other class, they are indirectly, but certainly, buffed with this change. There are lots of people doing detailed calculations that show: power will be improved in contrast to crit. I do not know if the absolute damage will increase, but for sure the damage of the guardian fighters compared to other classes will increase. I never seen anyone pointing this out before, so I thought I'll do this "information thread".
Apart from that (and I really shouldn't start with explicit examples, but I can't resist), GF work quiet nicely. I liked the last changes a lot. I admit they did not adress all the playstyles people use with a GF, but I run with Enforced Threat and Frontline Surge and the increased cap was exactly what the doctor ordered! It increased my usefulness in dungeons A LOT. I play mainly PvE, and GF are doing fine there (at least my 13.5k GF with regular enchant does and I wouldn't consider this as "overgeared").
- FH: people actually want GF here. If you are low geared, you have the best chance to do it with a GF. If you are well geared, this becomes so easy, it actually gets boring (so I mostly kite with my CW now
)
- CK: Same holds for second boss at Karrundax. And at the first boss a GF brings nice single target dps or can tank up adds to buy time
- MC: people actually want GFs here as well. That dragon hurts quiet a bit - if you don't block
- VT: I made really good experiences here with my GF.With lunging strike I can take out up to 3 caskets! Even if Valindra is at the other side of my quarter, I can still take out 2. Not to mention the huge impact of the run speed bonus from Into the Fray for your allies to get to their caskets! One Ice Dagger followed by an Anvil of Doom can basically release someone from a grab. I can survive a sweep in the ghost phase, but that is not really of concern, since the ghost are just tickling me anyways. I wiped so many times in VT so far, but it was never because I didn't survive a ghost phase or didn't do my caskets. And in the end dps race you have an Anvil of Doom.
- ToS: I play this frequently with my girlfriend who plays CW, and our combined control is enough to manage the adds at the final boss, so we usually run it with cleric and two dps for very smooth and quick runs.
- CN: Well I admit at the last boss I always feel I'm missing an Arcane Singularity, but up to there, GF works as well. Especially I heard people have trouble with the third boss. It is almost impossible to loose that one with a GF that kites. I may not always get all the aggro, but once the rest of my party wipes, I have the aggro. I can just run circles all day until they are back and finish the boss.
- SP: I can get all the aggro away from my allies and pull them to the edge, where they can be pushed over. You can even solo the final boss at SP with a certain strategy as a GF. Especially useful if the rest of your party wipes when boss is at 10% or less.
- GG: I had very smooth FC runs. Up to 5 np (I know more are possible with tons of gear). Especially when you just started GG and you are still low equipped, a GF who takes aggro can be a live safer in the messy door fight where you pulled everything to. I made 3-4 runs from the very beginning, while guildmates often only managed 2 because they wiped in the door fight
What more PvE content is there? I do very fine at everything but Draco, and I sometimes even get compliments how little pots everyone used. So I am actually happy with the state of the GF
. A well-geared CW who knows what he is doing might be better than a GF in some situations, but by no means make him obsolete.
Power is going to be better in Mod3. -> GF are going to be better
Because GFs naturally have tons of power (due to a feat), more than any other class, they are indirectly, but certainly, buffed with this change. There are lots of people doing detailed calculations that show: power will be improved in contrast to crit. I do not know if the absolute damage will increase, but for sure the damage of the guardian fighters compared to other classes will increase. I never seen anyone pointing this out before, so I thought I'll do this "information thread".
Apart from that (and I really shouldn't start with explicit examples, but I can't resist), GF work quiet nicely. I liked the last changes a lot. I admit they did not adress all the playstyles people use with a GF, but I run with Enforced Threat and Frontline Surge and the increased cap was exactly what the doctor ordered! It increased my usefulness in dungeons A LOT. I play mainly PvE, and GF are doing fine there (at least my 13.5k GF with regular enchant does and I wouldn't consider this as "overgeared").
- FH: people actually want GF here. If you are low geared, you have the best chance to do it with a GF. If you are well geared, this becomes so easy, it actually gets boring (so I mostly kite with my CW now
)- CK: Same holds for second boss at Karrundax. And at the first boss a GF brings nice single target dps or can tank up adds to buy time
- MC: people actually want GFs here as well. That dragon hurts quiet a bit - if you don't block
- VT: I made really good experiences here with my GF.With lunging strike I can take out up to 3 caskets! Even if Valindra is at the other side of my quarter, I can still take out 2. Not to mention the huge impact of the run speed bonus from Into the Fray for your allies to get to their caskets! One Ice Dagger followed by an Anvil of Doom can basically release someone from a grab. I can survive a sweep in the ghost phase, but that is not really of concern, since the ghost are just tickling me anyways. I wiped so many times in VT so far, but it was never because I didn't survive a ghost phase or didn't do my caskets. And in the end dps race you have an Anvil of Doom.
- ToS: I play this frequently with my girlfriend who plays CW, and our combined control is enough to manage the adds at the final boss, so we usually run it with cleric and two dps for very smooth and quick runs.
- CN: Well I admit at the last boss I always feel I'm missing an Arcane Singularity, but up to there, GF works as well. Especially I heard people have trouble with the third boss. It is almost impossible to loose that one with a GF that kites. I may not always get all the aggro, but once the rest of my party wipes, I have the aggro. I can just run circles all day until they are back and finish the boss.
- SP: I can get all the aggro away from my allies and pull them to the edge, where they can be pushed over. You can even solo the final boss at SP with a certain strategy as a GF. Especially useful if the rest of your party wipes when boss is at 10% or less.
- GG: I had very smooth FC runs. Up to 5 np (I know more are possible with tons of gear). Especially when you just started GG and you are still low equipped, a GF who takes aggro can be a live safer in the messy door fight where you pulled everything to. I made 3-4 runs from the very beginning, while guildmates often only managed 2 because they wiped in the door fight
What more PvE content is there? I do very fine at everything but Draco, and I sometimes even get compliments how little pots everyone used. So I am actually happy with the state of the GF
. A well-geared CW who knows what he is doing might be better than a GF in some situations, but by no means make him obsolete. Post edited by lamminatboden on
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Tacticians and protectors stay as they are.
And yes, Power gets changed but were you on the Preview server as of yet?
I headed over to test the other day to check out the power rework. I'll withhold my opinions and disdain here and simply present the facts.
Originally had 5k power, dropped that to 4k and hit some target dummies, I then threw rank 10s in all my offense slots which buffed me to over 8k power.
My encounters averaged about 50-100 more per hit. That's around 1% increase. What I had to sacrifice to get to 8k power was absurd and would never work in PvP even if the damage increase was much more. But it's not.
I tested by making sure the debuffs/buffs were consistent on the target dummy, firing off an encounter then recording the damage. I did not include at-wills as they don't contribute to your DPS in PvP enough to consider.
I did intend to do the same test by running ACT and going full on for 5 minutes and then comparing DPS, but I quickly became depressed and decided to cut myself instead.
Cryptic did such an overhaul already over in Champions Online and my expectation were met: it was over there a change for Avoidance and Crit Chance and it was also a minor buff - at best - for old players, and I do not think we should call it a buff it is rather a more internal change for the developers which got too much publicity.
But I was hoping =\
That shouldn't be a surprise, see also:
..which would be even smoother with a single GWF AoE DPS tanking those adds, and killing them. The GF just slows things down by reducing party DPS- the GWF can grab and hold them just as well, but still contributes. That's how the game works, when you step away from how you'd wish things were in theory. I only bothered to take my GF there once, to get the T2 chest. Otherwise, when guildies want help, it's far more productive to take my GWF.
Anyway, back in reality, on the preview server, the change is hardly noticeable- if at all.
This is concerning, though. I thought the idea of the power rework was to make it a flat % damage boost stat (160 points = +1%, as I recall). Which means that going from 4k to 8k power should be a change of +25% to +50% damage (so about a 20% increase in relative damage: 1.25 -> 1.5).
Did the tooltip reflect this in any way?
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
The difference is barely noticable.I ll say 1-3% percent more damage.And that is only for the conqs.As said def/tacts remain the same.
Yeah man, I described what I did to test it hoping that I was missing something, but I really don't think so. Regardless it needs to be properly tested with ACT, but like I said, I lack the motivation.
I am so discouraged I'm not sure I'll ever pull my GF back out. Its too bad, I really enjoy the class, but being at an inherent disadvantage no matter what I do is not something I"m willing to deal with anymore.
GF is still gonna be outshined by GWF in Mod 3. The only way that can fix GF is a complete revamp of the class which is 99.9% unlikely.
So if playing a Fighter class is your thing go with GWF and enjoy all the perks. If you roll with GF you are just trying to give yourself a hard time.
Yeah, I tried with a Conq copy and a non-Conq, and the difference was down in the noise. Not only is it self-deluding to claim it makes a difference, it was designed not to.
I do not really see where I'm "rambling". Also, I never claimed that GFs would make more damage in absolute numbers (if you read carefully). I just stated that lots of different calculations show, that, to optimize dps, people will rebuild part of their crit into power. This gives the GF a slight edge, since we naturally don't have lots of crit, but lots of power.
Also, I never claimed that a group with an additional GWF or CW instead of a GF wouldn't be quicker at clearing a dungeons. I just stated that even with GFs you can easily clear dungeons. So I do my ToS in 35min, and with your additional CW or GWF you do it in 30min. That might be strictly better, but doesn't make a GF obsolete by any means.
And do not forget low or mid GS groups. At a high GS I fully agree, getting a DC (sometimes) and filling up the party with CWs and GWFs will give you the fastest and smoothest runs. But with lower GS you can't kill the adds quickly enough. They will just destroy your squishy party members, until someone takes the aggro from them.
I was actually trying to spread some positive spirit around, since posts on GFs always seem so negative ("need to be fixed", "useless as for now"). As I said, I'm doing just fine with most of the PvE content in the game and while I do admit that certain other GFless combos can work a little faster, I do not see GFs that much behind other classes and that they "need to get fixed". There is just nothing really broken about them (can't say anything to PvP though).
And as much as I appreciate your constructive criticism, I would ask you to stay a bit closer to the original post.
I have not parsed the data for GF's specifically, but I did so very thoroughly on a my CW. Enough to where I know the damage formulas and I know exactly how they have reworked power in the damage formulas. I can confirm that the OP is spot on. For people with around 6k power, their damage in module 3 is going to be about 10% higher across the board compared to Module 2. The more power you have the bigger your change will be. It's not an earth-shattering buff, but it is significant.
If you copy your character over to the preview shard and put your mouse on your power it will tell you exactly how much your damage is being increased by your power (percentage-wise). You can actually play around with your power and use the tooltip to see how much damage you're gaining or losing. The module 2 power tooltip is flawed and cannot be used in that manner.
In your long rambling post.
I'd like to point out that much of what the OP says is true for mid-low tier runs. If everyone is an average gear score, then yes, the GF really starts to shine. It's only in the highest tiers where GFs become outclassed. What most people are forgetting is that average gear score IS WHERE MOST PEOPLE ARE! The people that complain that at the very highest levels of play GFs are outclassed are talking about maybe 1-2% of the player base. That's not where real strength of the GF lies. It's in the mid-tiers where there aren't as many uber players.
I enjoy this sort of positivity because all the negativity surrounding GFs has spread like poison to lower tiers, where people will just SAY GFs are underpowered without actually understanding why or what's wrong with them, following everyone else like sheep instead of doing the research.
Many of us can put in hundreds of hours in this game and spend money on cute mounts without ever reaching 16k gear scores. I'm seriously starting to think we have a 1% crisis going on where these elite players think they represent the game. I'm sick of statements where people say PUGs don't matter. PUGs DO matter. PUGs are where most people play and are absolutely an essential part of the mainstream experience of this game. If you're a GF and you're doing ok in PUGs, then you are DOING OK PERIOD.
The developers know this. That's why they're taking their sweet *** time.
Once again, I AGREE that GFs could use some work. I AGREE they are a little underpowered. But I'm tired of people becoming "depressed" and losing common sense. Honestly, I believe the bitterness of all these old school uber leet players is coming from the fact that they have been playing since the game first came out last year and are sick of the game in general, not just the GF. I've been playing since December and frankly I'm still enjoying my GF in PvP. I'm not sick of it. Only recently did I decide to roll a CW.
Honestly, if you're so tired that the very idea of playing your once favorite class causes you mental illness, it's time to play another game or stop playing games altogether.
Did you actually parse your logs with ACT or are you basing this on the tooltip? Tool tips in this game have a reputation for being.... How do you say... Completely wrong.
But yes as I said in my earlier posts it needs to be logged with ACT to know for sure. And I thing you need to do it on a GF not a CW, but I would be very interested in seeing your data for either class if you wouldn't mind linking it.
Thanks in advance!
Yes, I parsed the data with ACT. A whole lot of data. As in, every CW ability at varying power levels with different weapons in Module 3 then reconstructing the formulas used to calculate damage. Then comparing those formulas with the ones I had already reconstructed in Module 2. They changed the whole form of the equation from an additive bonus, to a multiplicative one. As a result, damage from power is up in Module 3. Anyone claiming otherwise hasn't done any serious testing.
edit: I haven't uploaded the data anywhere. I do have a blog that I slapped together that went through how I derived all of the Module 2 formulas and detailed all of the numerous ways the tooltips lied and omitted information on CW abilities.
It's here:
http://laggygamerz.com/forum/index.php?/topic/351-damage-calculations-for-control-wizard-abilities/
I do plan to update it at some point for Module 3. Probably some time after it goes live.
Power is reworked in mod 3.
Roughly it goes like this:
In live damage equals to (weapon damage+plus power damage) x Encounter/daily/att Multiplier
In mod 3 goes like this (weapon damage x Enc/Daily/Att Multiplier) x Power percentage Multiplier
Normally that would lead to 10-15% damage increase in Mod 3 for same power IF THE DAMAGE MULTIPLIER OF GF HAD NOT CHANGED TO KEEP HIM IN LINE.
Proof?
Here we go.
My GF with timeless 8098 power combat superiority on.
Live:
Lunging strike 7008-7756
Cleave 1172-1327
Griffon's 4321-4861
Knee 5739-6456
Anvil 6622-7296
Bull 4553-5183
Mod3:
Lunging strike 5880-6991
Cleave 1220-1450
Griffon's 4244-5046
Knee 5637-6702
Anvil 5305-6307
Bull 4951-5887
Where is the 10% increase?Actually are some nerfs.
They just lower the dailies/Enc/Att will multipliers to keep stats in thr same league as Live.
For whoever question this just copy your char to preview as i did and post your stats.End of story.
NO BONUS FOR GF IN MOD3.
Lunging strike the same.Remember the cries of some CWs about lunging strike? (GF hit me with their op teleporting strike")
Anvil?I quess some poor Gf hit one of dev's GWF in dev's play day in pvp :P
"You hit me?Get a nerf now!!!" Ok i am joking but the nerf is there.
Still nice to know Knight Captain won't be garbage.
Thanks you very much, this is exactly the way I feel and it is good to know I'm not the only one
I'll defiantly be on test to parse this sometime over the weekend. I'll post the results, sometime before mod 3 drops.... Maybe.
This is a dead horse mantra. It's not even true any more, as even a casual player with a minimal level of attention span can get benefit from the massive GS inflation. My GF hit 60 recently, and I was able to pick up a set of r7s for PvE gear for about 50k each. The t2 took a few days of casual play to collect. The free artifact was cheap to level with 60k per stack r5s from the AH. The PvP artifact likewise. The boons were a massive boost, and I made an actual profit getting them, for about 30-40 minutes work per day for both sets of early ones.
I was able to do most of this in a few days, without real effort. A player who has been playing GF for a while is going to have way better gear unless they actually hate upgrades. It is possible to have easily have made the money to pay for the r7s from salvaging, leadership and auctioning drops if you had more than a few days on that class. To go "mer mer mer, but most other people have crappy gear" is to miss the point. A few new players, a few super-casuals and some just plain bad players don't have the advantages of the cheap/free upgrades that have been raining down. However, compared to equipping my DC in beta, the game virtually throws gear at you. So no, don't you dare try to hide behind that tired and lazy old trope, you really should know better, that's just weak
Hell, a set of salvage-value purples from the AH, and a bunch of cheap R5s is enough as a baseline to let most groups trample the current T2 content without breathing hard, given boons and artifacts.
Anyway, that's a sidetrack. It doesn't alter the fact that the OP is plain wrong. GFs won't be in a noticeably better place in mod 3 as it currently stands on the preview servers. Buy your GF a respec token and then copy them over a few times, try out various specs. They're still pointless and a waste of a slot 99% of the time in PvE (outside, maybe, of the odd bit of kiting), and distinctly second-class in PvP- though still fun in low-grade PUG PvP against bad players.
Actually, the reason I am putting so much work into my GF is perversely precisely because they're underpowered and <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. It's a weird sort of fun to try and make them useful for something. I have all other classes, geared at least to CN standards or better, and there's only so much entertainment value available from destroying the same old dungeons again on my GWF or CW.
I will go out of my way to dissuade guildies from spending a lot on gearing up GFs, telling them that if they want something effective and fun, the AD/Zen is better spent elsewhere. If they understand that the class is gimpy and pointless, and still want to keep it as a fun side-project, then I'm at peace with that, as they know the risks and might still have a good time. However, new players who pour their heart into their first character, a GF, only to find out that it's as much use as ricepaper underwear are often left feeling ripped-off, and quit. It would be mendacious and crummy not to warn them.
You say "negativity", I say "honesty" and perhaps "basic decency".
Meanwhile, I am having fun with my GF in PvP for now, even if it is rubbish. It's... tuned rubbish.
As I said, you can do well in almost all PvE content with a GF. We already agreed on the clearing speed being slower, but it still works and it is still fun and taking 5min longer for a dungeon is not what I call "pointless and waste of slot".
Ok, you are right about that from a certain GS onwards. Completely agree.
Let us take a look at a rogue in a dungeon: very little AoE, reducing clearing speed by a lot, the run would be smoother with another GWF or CW.
What about a DC? Well with good gear, you don't really need a DC. 3-4 CW will just perma cc alle adds and they won't do any damage. Life steal will do the rest. So let us replace the DC as well with a GWF or CW, because it slows the party down significantly (since it does only half the GFs damage at best)
And a HR? Well I'm not very familiar with them, but I guess another CW or GWF is still better.
So where do we arrive with your argumentation? That a party of 3-4 CWs and rest made up of GWFs is the best. And you are completely right about that!
But does that mean that GFs, TRs, DCs and HRs are all pointless and a waste of slot? I hardly think so. They are all fun to play and can run the PvE content with no problem. With a certain gear score, you can make any combination work and a GFs GS doesn't have to be overly high to do so as well.
There are casual players out there (those with jobs, studying etc) that play 1-2 hours every two or three days. They hardly make more than 10k an evening they play. It is going to take a while for them to get half a million for an Ioun Stone, half a million for 10x R7s, half a million to refine their two artifacts to purple, half a million for a lesser weapon and soulforged enchant or until they do the 20 runs you usually need (at least) to get your T2 set together. Those were the casual players that we have been talking about - and that I am commonly encountering. Or people who gear up their second or third toon and are still low GS with no Ioun Stone as well.
I actually tell people GF is a fun class to play and they can do it. I'd warn them about the fact that they might not be able to complete Draco without really good gear, but apart from that, it is fun and it works very well in PvE. Especially I will tell them it is fun to play GF. I once tried a GWF and it was so boring, I stopped. I know of people who actually deleted their Lvl 60 GWFs, because they were so bored of it, it wasn't even worth them to buy just additional character slots. But again, I do agree with you on "something effective", because a GWF is way easier to play and more effective than a GF at a higher (but still relatively easy to reach) GS. Only real disadvantage of a GF is, that people will tell you that your class is weak and they don't want to run with you. But then you can just join legit and that problem is gone.
Apart from the fact that I never talked about a noticeably difference, there are people here calculating it changes nothing (hypervoreian), and people who did calculate a damage increase of 10% (abaddon). I am eager to see how it will turn out.
Bottom line: I think we just have to agree to disagree. I go on and play my GF in PvE and have lots of fun, while I wish you a lot of fun in PvP with yours
Replacing one with a GF usually just means you'll lose damage output while acquiring someone who doesn't die easily, when nobody is dying anyway. There just isn't really content that needs to be tanked.
That's the issue. You could argue that every class is dispensable, but even then you'd have to admit there's a hierarchy, which pretty much goes CW>GWF>DC>HR>TR>GF (bit uncertain about where HRs fit in, to be honest).
Even then it's not that simple, because stacking is also a factor: two DCs is a bad idea, two GFs is also a bad idea, but two GWFs or two CWs is a great idea.
Obviously all content can be completed with just about any party composition, and those of us who don't care about FASTFASTFASTCLEARCLEARCLEAROMGKICKTEHGF are happy to run with whatever, but it's a fairly unarguable fact that GFs are not topping the 'most wanted class' list any time soon. Sure, you CAN do damage, but for the same amount of investment a GWF would do substantially more. About the most useful, class-specific thing you can do is be a buffbot (bring a KC set, mark everything and spam into the fray on cooldown).
When did mmos stop being about having fun with friends?
I mean seriously, you think you're doing people a favor by telling them that their class is trash and they should reroll something else? What makes you think that's an easy process for everyone? Yes, for a hard core gamer leveling up a new character may only take a week, but for you're average Joe/Jane you're telling people to waste 2 weeks to a month worth of time because they made a bad choice in a game.
Discouraging people from playing also makes it more difficult for people to test the class and actually find out what's wrong with them. Look how long it's taken for anyone, ANYONE to actually parse the data and find out if the power rework does anything, or if Knight Captain Armor is still viable.
I'd rather tell someone how to make the most out of their character. Yes, I'll warn them that the class is underpowered. But I'd rather play with friends/guildees on their SLIGHTLY suboptimal classes than rofl-stomp dungeons with strangers. What's the point of having the best gear, or even playing this game AT ALL if you don't spend time with people you like?
That is rather the point. If you like someone, and they ask which companions they should spend a metric buttload on for bonuses, then why wouldn't you tell them that the money is likely to bring them more fun if they spend it elsewhere? Is it some twisted "I suffered this because I didn't know better, so you must too" urge?
Sounds like a deal to me. I'd actually prefer it if you were right and I was wrong in this case, though I shan't hold my breath.