test content
Logo
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc
Sly Flourish vs. Duelist's Flurry in PvP Question
rgladiato
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 313 Arc User
First let me state that my TR build is only mediocre. I have 3 points in both Sly Flourish and Duelist's Flurry. I find that with DF most experienced PvP opponents see it coming and run or take the flurry once and figure it out. With SF I can usually hit a couple / few times which averages out to more damage. So my main question is how do you experienced DF wielding PvPers land the hits? Attack mainly from stealth? Switch or interleave different attacks somehow? Am I just bad with DF (entirely possible as I consider my PvP skills to be just a bit above mediocre)?
Is most of the TR's damage coming from encounter powers and their at-wills are more of an augment?
Thanks for any help you can give!
Is most of the TR's damage coming from encounter powers and their at-wills are more of an augment?
Thanks for any help you can give!
Nixon the TR
Give a man a fire and he's warm for the day. But set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life.
Give a man a fire and he's warm for the day. But set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life.
Post edited by rgladiato on
0
Comments
By jumping bug, do you mean how using an attack while in midair allows you to keep moving forward at the same speed, whereas if you use it on the ground you get rooted during the animation? I wasn't aware that was a bug.
I do not use DF and I do not miss it.
In PVE, I use Sly Flourish and Cloud of Steel, and if I fell I might need to go Perma Stealth, I swap GC for CoS.
as a Scoundrel, I have a feat that grants me extra damage for SF and CoS.
Timed right, Gloaming Cut is amazing in PvP. When you see an opponent drop below 50% health, that is when you pounce and if you have the proper Sabeteur Feat [Sneaky Stabber], it helps keep you in stealth by granting 10% of your stealth on every hit and 20% on a kill not to mention the 20% extra damage it does when someone drops below 50% health.
Leaving dead question marks everywhere
1. CC immunity means you have that third strike as time when your stealth/encounters can recharge without you being locked into a CC chain.
2. The rapid hits stack bilethorn bleeds extremely effectively, leading to a very high combined damage output.
3. The third strike follows your target once it connects, making it nearly impossible to avoid once landed.
Sly Flourish on the other hand, while dealing respectable damage has no such symbiosis with the bilethorn enchant. In fact, I would go as far as to say if you are using sly flourish, you should not use bilethorn. It also provides no CC immunity, once you land a single blow and the opponent knows you are there, you can and often will be CC chained to death.
Gloaming Cut hits hard on targets at low health but suffers from a long and very loud wind up. It is extremely easy to locate a TR using GC from audio cues alone and as GC also provides no CC immunity, they can often be prone chained to death. However, I have seen it used effectively as a finisher in a 2v2 or 3v2 brawl where there is often too much happening for audio cues to be as effective as in a 1v1 situation.
It fits the profile 99% of the time.
DF is optional though, I'd rather pick gloaming cut or SF for more experienced enemies that have common sense and know that chainsaws may hurt lol
WTB Class Reroll please
Sneak Attack will improve your DF considerably if you run a stealth build, paired with Tenacious Concealment. It takes practice, and its not for everybody. Protip: I would highly suggest that if you find it too hard, just go with everybody and say it's a jumping bug. No loss of street credit to your skills.
In other words, anything that is not above, not much problems with using SF. Even when you're contesting a node against a TR the reason you might lose is rarely because you are hit by DF, but rather, simply because you're fighting something invisible in the first place in most cases. (...you start off with like 15~20% HP busted in the first 8~10 seconds into the fight during the TR's first stealth duration, then comes SS and the second stealth duration, another 10~15% busted through thrown knives alone, and then the second stealth is gone, ITC engaged, more bold direct attack attempted by the TR, then SS again, 3rd stealth duration, more knives, another 10~20% HP gone... so it is like 30~40 seconds into the fight, you've only seen the TR for mayeb 5 seconds during that time and your HP is already down to like 30%. This is why people die, not because they're actually hit by DF
Sure. There are top level TRs who rarely miss with it. But then that's because they are top-level players that they consistently hit with that thing.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Doesn't work against someone who already knows a TR is there - even if the fighting space is confined to the small node. More than 90% of the time the prime objective of the TR on the node is either taking it or guarding it, which also confines the movement space of the TR himself. I find the more proud and skilled the enemy TR is, the more he hates leaving the circle even for a moment -- and that usually means the direction of the attack coming can be more or less predicted. Just move to the edge of the circle and you can bet your <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> the TR is somewhere around the center of the circle, probably jump-swinging attack 1 or 2. Turn up the volume and sure enough the 3rd flurry part can be confirmed audibly.
I've been butt-kicked and face planted by many good TRs, sometimes hilariously, but all of those instances the defeat was a result of losing the stealth-fight, not because I've actually been hit by DF even once. Usually the real killer is (predictably) endless stream of Bilethorn CoS shots coming from stealth that deal heavy damage as well as keep you out of stealth forever.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Anyways, duelists is the only option for PvP at wills. You don't have any other abilities that do damage so it's kind of a must.
So now that we know this, what else do we know?
Duelists is hard to hit: practice on target dummies... ALOT!
People can see a duelists coming from a mile away: Landing it from stealth is your only option.
So being that duelists is our most effective form of DPS in PvP, and it can only be landed consistently from stealth, how do you think we should be specing?
That's correct! A heavy stealth build.
This is why EVERY PvP TR uses this build or a version of it. (Kweassa included)
If you do not use this build, you are gimped in PvP. Can you do OK without this build? Yes, with pugs you'll do ok, but duelists/stealth will ALWAYS outperform in PvP period.
I would also like to point out that there is no "Jump" bug, you do NOT need to jump to extend your Duelists range, you can simply take 1 and 1/2 steps between each strike. People jump because it's easier to gauge the distance, and to time it. You can do this with GF, and GWF at wills as well as some others so I'm fairly certain it is not a "bug".
Actually I switch around my at-wills according to the classes of enemies I'm facing as opponents. If there are lot of GFs or GWFs I'd definately consider taking smokebomb and DF, but if there are more HRs or CWs, I'd consider using SF, since my character isn't really optimized for the orthodox CoS/DF build, nor is it even a MI TR. Much the same I carry two weapons, one with either Bronzewood or Vorpal, and other a Bilethorn.. so if there are many TRs in the enemy team I go for latter, if not former.
The thing with DF is .. that there are moments which you see a clear opening in the enemy, which I can't exploit because DF is too slow to activate. Even if SF is much weaker in overall damage, it's still more than 1k damage per pop, with Scoundrel feats and P.Vorpal each hit on crit could produce over 2k. 3 of SF hits and that's 5~6k damage by itself... and I can get it in when I see that opening. I can't do that with DF, which by the time the third flurry comes out the opening is already closed and gone.
This isn't much of a factor in TR vs TR fights since both stay invisible to one another, hence nobody sees an opening anyway, unless one side starts leading the stealth-peeling contest. However, particularly against HRs, it becomes important to get whatever damage in as fast as possible in whatever form, even if things turn ugly. Maybe that's one of the reasons I actually found HRs a lot easier to face with a TR than other people suggested. At least, in those days when VP wasn't gutted down like this.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
W/O duelist you will never beat a GWF, GF, or DC.
With duelists you can do well against everything. (As long as you are stealth based) and the immunity you get with DF is irreplaceable.
I would also like to point out that even if you are using SF instead of duelists against an HR or Mage, if you aren't in stealth you aren't going to land either period.
I also want to reiterate what I said earlier. You may do ok with swapping things around, or using other encounters/at wills/feats but you will NEVER out perform a properly built bile/duelists TR. And for me, that says it all. Why would you use anything else?
Youtube: Trickster Rogue - Pug Match @ 1 vs 1
Screenshot zone:
Click: I Bet 99% of people CAN'T screenshot this
Beaten plenty of them, thank you. Although that was before this <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> of a WK nerf. Admittedly, nowadays, my build performs like at maybe 1/4th of what it used to be. Can't kill anything now.
As it is nothing beats a properly built bile TR. Except that's not much due to DF being a good skill, but rather the entire high-INT/fast ITC rotation build being stupidly OP in most cases.
(ps) The point is, DF does its job. It also has a redeeming quality of giving out CC immunities during activation (which IMO is a bit OP, although kept under check in some weird way due to the power being difficult to hit), and people have found a use by using it during stealth. However the DF only works under specific conditions which, honestly speaking, would make any other power work as well.
You could slot SF or maybe even Gloaming cut while running a high-INT/high-Rec/fast-ITC rotation build and it'd still work out well enough provided your proficient with the build. You're invisible like more than 80% of the time, and most usually immune to all control with 100% deflection as a defense during the brief instances your stealth rotation is slightly skewed and you become visible -- what kind of power would not work with a basic platform like that?
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
So.... in short...
Perma/semi-perma/bile is the ONLY viable spec in PvP.
Thanks for agreeing
I have months of PvP, screenshots and video's that disprove everything you have said.
I am a Semi Stealth in PvP. I have played with a lot of TR's on this site and they can vouch for my style of play and effectiveness.
[I also grumble alot when I play, I think that helps my reaction time.] :cool:
Leaving dead question marks everywhere
Thanks, this says it all.
Yes hes playing against some of the worst Pugs I've ever seen. But you get the jist of the build, why would you spec any other way?
I'm sure you do!! This isn't MONTHS ago man. There have been HUGE changes in the game in the last month alone. You sound like the GF's who haven't played in months preaching about how good Vorpal is for GF. It USED TO BE, but no mas brother.. no mas.
Impact shot got nerfed to hell, its useless, and I rarely get hit for over 5 or 6k by a Lashing blade. Those are the OLD builds man, they do NOT work anymore. What little viability they had left was taken away by Tenacity.
Yes I'm sure you are still killing 6k GS pugs with it. But I got news, alot of those people who are kicking your butt and you think they are full rank 10's and whatnot, are probably very close to you in gear.
With that, I'm out! Won't be posting in this thread anymore, you guys obviously have it all figured out
PUG ON LIL'PUGGIES!!
Duelist Flurry is so much deadlier because Striker TR can spec into heavy damage, but that's beside the point. The point is, @mehpvpmeh is correct that using DF from out of stealth is incredibly hard. It's next to impossible against ranged classes who know to properly kite. It's a different story against GF/GWF, however, because they are bound to enter melee.
The only absolute cause for me to use Sly Flourish is if I'm fighting an Interrupt-spec HR. You will never land a Flurry on those--they make you look like a broken record that jumps back to the beginning over and over. If I'm using DF against a DC/CW I would use it from stealth, add Sneak Attack to increase movement speed and the range of my windup.
Top TR using Sly Flourish is extremely rare. I know that they can beat equally geared DF-users only from sheer skill. The average PvPer just wouldn't have enough damage, especially as permastealth. Now, SF, that may work really well for Scoundrel combat builds <-- the ones that can actually use encounter powers for damage? Yes, those guys.
Yea, you got me pegged. I'm only whomping on noobs, not tanking on Node 2 or being the best player on my team whether it's a blowout or tight match.
Only time I get my *** handed to me is when I am with a Pug group and we come across a pre made full PvP Guild team.
Some of us have gotten extremely good with SF and with GC, and some of us have feats that support the use of these At Wills making them extremely effective. On Top of that, when playing in a good team, we work to complement the other team members and play our roles.
DF is not the only choice.
Rustlord actually backs up my statements in his post.
I am a Scoundrel Build.
For the record, I have been doing way better Post PvP patch with Tenacity, then I ever did Pre PvP match without Tenacity gear.
Leaving dead question marks everywhere
Give a man a fire and he's warm for the day. But set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life.
Duelist's flurry and cloud of steel are the 2 at-wills you should have slotted if you want to do as well as possible, DF has a bit of a learning curve with the jumps and that stuff but once you learn to use it its just simply too good to pass on. CC immunity + sick damage and great burst during a 1-2 second frame (the flurry). Bilethorn synergy too.
If you're not interested in learning to use DF and just want to pug a few matches and don't really care how well you do, by all means, use whatever skills you want
Just faced a TR that mastered DF in PvP and I totally agreed with the above statement. I faced him 1v1 twice and lost both fight.
Ebony (Whisperknife)
Hehehehehehe :rolleyes:
Yeah, you are right, I was using PoTB/Deft strike/IToC. Then I switched to PoTB/Smoke Bomb/IToC, which is not good against him. Now, I switched to Shadow Strike/Deft Strike/IToC and at the same time, I am practising my Duel Furry with the training dummies. And it does improved my PvP experience
And yes, I doesn't like to follow a "fix" (e.g. Bilethorn) template. I prefer to play the TR based on my own style. I do PvP alots with PUG, and I toggle my encounters depend on the opponents team.
I do visit here to get tips and advice from fellow TR masters
Ebony (Whisperknife)
I will admit, with the recent changes in the current module and the Roar root bug, I have dropped SF in PVP and have gotten quite good with DF. Its amazing how quickly it can take down a GWF and with my P.Bilethorn it blows through a GFs block meter.
I really wish i could see the face of my opponent when I time my ITC to block their prone or roar attempt and then go to town on them with DF.
Leaving dead question marks everywhere
Lets start with DF damage mechanics. If you go to your powers section and look at the DF Tooltip it says it does something like 1-1.5k damage depending on how well geared your TR is. The actual damage of the full DF combo in all it's glory is this x11 + crit factors + stealth factors + wep enhancement factors. The first 2 strikes of DF hit with the exact damage stated in the tooltip. The flurry portion DF consists of 9 flurry cuts that each do 1/2 of tool tip damage. Each flurry cut has a 50% chance to apply a bleed stack. Bleed stacks tick at 1/4th tooltip damage over 6 seconds with 1 tick per second, for a total of 1.5xtooltip damage per bleed stack. 18% of DF damage comes from the first two strikes, 40% from the 9 flurry cuts, and 40% from the bleed effect. Wep procs happen once on each of first two strike, once for each of the 9 flurry cuts, and once each time a bleed stack is first applied. This gives you 11-20 wep procs for a full flurry, or 9-18 for the flurry portion alone. Realistically, DF applies 2-6 bleed stacks and averages at 13 wep procs for the flurry portion.
In PVE flurry can easily do 20k+ damage, although that damage is not fully realized until 40% of flurry damage ticks it's full amount after 6 seconds. In pvp this is not quite the case. First, you rarely connect with the first two strikes in pvp, and if your smart you shouldn't be in the first place. Second, unlike monsters, players have a DOT resistance stat, and alot of your DF bleed gets soaked up in regen, temp hp, pot chugging, etc. Even so, coupled with a good wep enchant flurry hits around 10-15k on the initial burst.
Contrary to what alot of people have said, DF is actually most effective against soft targets. A single flurry that lands can spell the end for a CW, rogue, or HR(at least before they were broken as all hell). While these classes are highly mobile it is far from impossible to hit them with a flurry, even if they know you are there. My standard loadout consists of ITC, SS, and BnS for encounters and DF and gloaming cut for at wills. The beauty of GC for a second at will is many. First GC can be animation canceled straight into a dodgeroll as soon as it connects. Since you can begin GC out of stealth detection range, and then land it immediately into a dodgeroll, the chances of retaliation are next to none, even more so than flurry. Secondly, it forces highly mobile classes such as cws to use up their stamina. GC alone can kill most soft targets in 5-6 hits. Since they never know when your going to GC and when your going to flurry, they have to dodge. When they run out of stamina, you go in for the kill with flurry, if they never dodge you just gloam them to death (which feels pretty dam cheap actually). GWF and GF are significantly easier to land flurries on and GF in particular gets their shield eaten to oblivion.
The key to landing flurries and actually GC as well is move speed, move speed, move speed. The faster you are and the more of a move speed advantage you have on your opponent the easier it will be to land flurries on them. For this reason using flurry during stealth is key, both so your opponent doesn't avoid it, and because of the move speed boost your getting from stealth if your slotting sneak attack.
To practice flurry, start by being able to target any space around yourself regardless of where you begin. You need to get a really solid feel for how long you can pause in between the first two strikes and the third. Begin the first two strikes, then change directions so you can target any area within a 5ft radius. Once you have mastered this, the next step is movement. Perform the first two strikes then move as far as you possible can into the third strike before you have to start the combo again. This requires split second timing and concentration. Running into the third combo increases it's precision, allowing you to target specific opponents in the chaos of melee, jumping into the third strike will increase your range slightly. True mastery of flurry treats each strike of flurry as a separate entity. Performing the first two strike quickly and then the third as well or dragging the combo out with pauses and movement between each one depend on what your opponent is doing, and it's all about the timing.