What about the A Hole Groups that kick you right before the loot is divided after the final boss? Kicks should not be allowed while a loot roll is being determined. I agree that there are A Holes out there who need during greed runs but there are also MANY who kick those who did nothing wrong just to get the loot for them or their friends.
I know others have brought this up but really having a brutal time lately in pugs. Something needs to be done, not worth playing if you can't have a shot at the end....
I don't run dungeons anymore because of this.
I don't understand why they don't implement the same kind of personal loot from CTA in the whole game.
Trash looters in skirmishs are another issue to me...
Agreed. They come in all shapes and sizes. The most wanted classes first of course.
Which is exactly why there's never going to be one. The good shouldn't suffer for the bad. As a developer I'd rather have people choosing the risk of greed runs and lose some drops because somebody doesn't stick to it, than people never seeing their gear drop. The drops are hard enough as they are.
There are hardly any need runs as it stands now. Simply having a option to set to thwart thieves is merely an inevitability.
Personally whenever a class item drops that isn't my class, I already have the popup open with the mouse hovering over vote kick for the person that can roll need. Had to bump over a dozen would be thieves last weekend alone... Ppl need to keep their greasy thieving hands off the need button. If I can help it, they be getting **** period.
Since most lfg channel groups mandate 13-15k gs nowadays anyway. It's more or less certain that someone rolling need has rolled need for the same item before. They are just trying to rip group members off.
You can gear up through chests, hitting need on everything BoE is simply not necessary. The one example is CN, but you can always try to find a group that agrees on need. I've seen such LFGs. Need is especially lackluster because all groups have multiple CW, who rely on greed to have the same chance as everybody.
The chest has been BoE and trust me, with players having long outgeared T2 and the occasional exploit here and there, it's a very bad idea to make them BoE again. The economy would crash. I bought my first HV set during BoE chest times, can't recall the exact price, but jeez it was cheap.
I'll weigh in on this issue. I came from Star Wars the Old Republic which was my first MMO. I have to say from a "new" player stand point the need greed thing is confusing and NOT a lot of people take the time to type out etiquette. I had to join a guild before people took the time to explain anything to me.
In my opinion, these games are designed to accommodate "new" players and new players may actually need stuff or not know what is proper. The problem I see from reading these forums is there is a large number of veteran players out there who probably have played more than this MMO and become accustomed to playing by some set of "unwritten" rules and made when new (or in some or many cases dishonorable) players don't follow the same rules.
When I first started playing I thought it was pretty neat that this game didn't allow for players to need on item drops for things that dropped not for their own class. I have not been playing forever and frankly needed gear and starting out not in a guild it was hard to get dungeon runs that were successful. Then I found out that people want to do greed only runs (my guild is rather adamant about that) which I have grown accustomed too but on rare occasions we run with a non guild member or pug they just don't get it or don't want to get it.
The only problem I have with the statement that you can gear up on chests, at least for the time being, is that chests are only unlocked during dd event times and those times are not always friendly with people's schedules. I have gone a whole week without being able to catch them because in my time zone they are almost over by the time I get home and the next one isn't until late at night when i'm about to go to bed. So boss drops are just another way to get gear if you aren't on during a DD event (albeit the chances become even less that you get what you "need" or looking for).
I also take issue with the concept of "buying from AH". I like to earn most things (at least once or for one character). I am NOT a fan of having to slave for AD just to blow it on things I should be able to get without paying for it. At times I think the AD market needs to be re-evaluated because there are people with way too much AD considering how much time it takes to build up that kind of AD the way the game intends.
The game technically only wants you to refine AD at a rate of 24k per day. Assuming you can even get that cap on a daily basis it would take 10 days of daily grinding out Foundry, salvaging, pvp etc to get 240k. Anyone who has been playing knows how boring that is and so comes in the "greed" gripes everyone has because they want to get loot you can sell on the AH to get refined AD and probably tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of AD. However again since the game only allows for rough AD for rewards and you can refine a limited amount it would takes just over 3 months of playing every day doing nothing but daily rewards that offer rough AD to get 2 million AD assuming you can manage to NOT spend any during that time, which is nearly impossible since you will want to do things like create upgraded enchantments upgrade an artifact etc.
Some of that can be mitigated by running dungeons and salvaging but dungeons take time to run, you wont' always win anything worth salvaging and if you aren't running during a DD time then you can potentially get nothing worth while from the run at all. PVP dailies can take an hour now (more or less depending on day), it generally can take about an hour to run 4 foundry's, takes over an hour (close to 2 I think) to do the GG stuff, not to mention the daily dungeon which is dread vault that even in non epic mode can take a fair amount of time or not get completed at all (why? because almost no one wants to run this dungeon as even in epic mode the time vs. reward is pretty much not worth it for most people).
I know that the AH needs to have things in it to actually sell to people but a game that gives the items as rewards that ends up telling people to just buy the stuff just doesn't seem right, I think of the AH as a way to get crafting mats collectible stuff you can't luck into, things from events that come and go, not a place to just "buy" the gear you could get from a dungeon.
I probably threw in more than 2 cents worth of opinion but I do feel that the need/greed loot rolls need to have a better option. For guild people there should be a master looter and everyone should be able to do /roll to generate a random number from 1 - 100 and distribute loot manually. PUG runs should have an option run a greed only that disables the need button totally. However again the problem with new people that might be good players who are NOT in a guild might have issues getting gear if they can't need when they actually need something. I know it was difficult for me in the beginning.
I think with most things there is NO 1 easy solution no quick fix, someone else stated that the game is intended to allow players to need on what they can need so running with pugs and expecting them to not hit the need button is probably running at your own risk. Veterans probably take issue with this but I personally take issue with people who have been playing forever telling people to just buy the stuff and I take issue with veterans who complain at the amount of time a dungeon takes and refuses to run it properly (this is probably for a separate forum) and I will say it again if you don't have time to do a dungeon right then don't play or run one. If you can't earn money because you don't have time to run dungeons as they are supposed to be ran then either make time or shut up.
Last I heard life isn't fair and as in most games the people that can play day in and day out all do for whatever reason will clearly always have an edge on those who might only play an hour or two a day or even week. People that do nothing but PVP all day will obviously get more faster than people who pvp 1 - 4 times a day just for dailies.
To sum up:
I agree there probably should be more or more refined loot options while grouping.
I concede that it's probably not easy to make a system that everyone likes and that no matter what system is in place there are going to be people that think its unfair in some fashion.
I wish there was a better way to bring people into games and teach them general etiquette without people being jerks because there are no consequences for being a jerk and since its pretty much all anonymous people think they can say and do whatever they want. Although there is a possibility of making it a hassle to be a jerk such as banning IP address (you are NOT totally anonymous) and force people to write appeals to get to play again. Sadly as with anything that relys on human beings it can be abused where people will cite abuse get someone banned who probably didn't do anything but win a loot roll causing that person to quit rather follow an appeal process.
Personally I would like it better if the game would totally prohibit you from ever grouping with someone on your ignore list, I don't know if that is in place or not, but I was pvping and put a guy on ignore and low and behold he was on my team again and the match after that was on the opposing team. They use shame as punishment in leaving PVP as you can't queue for 30 minutes, so why not just make it so that people you ignore can't queue anything with you and it tells everyone in group that the person is on someone's ignore list and can't queue or when you invite someone you can check to see how many people ignore them giving you a good idea that you probably don't want to run with them as obviously they don't play well with others.
Exactly, I'm a TR and if a TR item drops and I don't need it I'll roll greed on it, because that's what it is, I just want it for its money. but if I need it because it's better than my current equipment, why wouldn't I roll "need"? (assuming no one said it it was a greed only run, of course).
If an item for another class drops, well, too bad for me, next time I might be the winner.
I don't think someone "needs" the money from an item the same way someone "needs" the item to improve his/her equipment, simple as that.
The option "only need allowed" would have the same consequences, no need for your elaborated system.
It isnt MY system, its the one used by nwn. It definitely prevents people from looting 20 items in the middle of an intense fight and having loot pop-ups blocking the entire screen. Yes you can go into the settings and adjust the gui but the system should be way more intuitive than that.
It isnt MY system, its the one used by nwn. It definitely prevents people from looting 20 items in the middle of an intense fight and having loot pop-ups blocking the entire screen. Yes you can go into the settings and adjust the gui but the system should be way more intuitive than that.
A possessive pronoun here does not necessarily imply that you have invented said system; please read the context, I certainly meant that you have spoken about said system, everything else would have too much implications; where did I imply you would have thought out that system? As if it would be important who have come up with it ...
A possessive pronoun here does not necessarily imply that you have invented said system; please read the context, I certainly meant that you have spoken about said system, everything else would have too much implications; where did I imply you would have thought out that system? As if it would be important who have come up with it ...
Semantics. My whole point was just that I played nwn for many many years and never heard a single complaint about the loot system. MMO's that use need or greed have many pages of complaints about those systems.
Semantics. My whole point was just that I played nwn for many many years and never heard a single complaint about the loot system. MMO's that use need or greed have many pages of complaints about those systems.
Too much Schopenhauer, not enough Bukowski
But your idea was good, I also do not like these pop-ups during a battle -- maybe its goal is to enhance difficulty. It is somewhat irritating, to delay the dice-rolling would be great but I fear such a change is also somewhat unrealistic in the near future, but now is not the end of all days.
If they would add a "greed only" option to the loot system, problem solved.
Personally I never run greed with random pugs, only Legit folks and guild/friends.
^this as well.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
EDIT FOR COMPLETION: Whenever a class item drops that is not my class, I'm launching vote kick against all class members that can roll need if you haven't clicked greed at 75%. Its a true shame that some ppl force this kind of protective actions, but it is what it is
A pre - emptive ninja on your part.
Two wrongs make a right... or wait....
0
klangeddinMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 882Arc User
Comments
I don't run dungeons anymore because of this.
I don't understand why they don't implement the same kind of personal loot from CTA in the whole game.
Trash looters in skirmishs are another issue to me...
There are hardly any need runs as it stands now. Simply having a option to set to thwart thieves is merely an inevitability.
Personally whenever a class item drops that isn't my class, I already have the popup open with the mouse hovering over vote kick for the person that can roll need. Had to bump over a dozen would be thieves last weekend alone... Ppl need to keep their greasy thieving hands off the need button. If I can help it, they be getting **** period.
Since most lfg channel groups mandate 13-15k gs nowadays anyway. It's more or less certain that someone rolling need has rolled need for the same item before. They are just trying to rip group members off.
I'll weigh in on this issue. I came from Star Wars the Old Republic which was my first MMO. I have to say from a "new" player stand point the need greed thing is confusing and NOT a lot of people take the time to type out etiquette. I had to join a guild before people took the time to explain anything to me.
In my opinion, these games are designed to accommodate "new" players and new players may actually need stuff or not know what is proper. The problem I see from reading these forums is there is a large number of veteran players out there who probably have played more than this MMO and become accustomed to playing by some set of "unwritten" rules and made when new (or in some or many cases dishonorable) players don't follow the same rules.
When I first started playing I thought it was pretty neat that this game didn't allow for players to need on item drops for things that dropped not for their own class. I have not been playing forever and frankly needed gear and starting out not in a guild it was hard to get dungeon runs that were successful. Then I found out that people want to do greed only runs (my guild is rather adamant about that) which I have grown accustomed too but on rare occasions we run with a non guild member or pug they just don't get it or don't want to get it.
The only problem I have with the statement that you can gear up on chests, at least for the time being, is that chests are only unlocked during dd event times and those times are not always friendly with people's schedules. I have gone a whole week without being able to catch them because in my time zone they are almost over by the time I get home and the next one isn't until late at night when i'm about to go to bed. So boss drops are just another way to get gear if you aren't on during a DD event (albeit the chances become even less that you get what you "need" or looking for).
I also take issue with the concept of "buying from AH". I like to earn most things (at least once or for one character). I am NOT a fan of having to slave for AD just to blow it on things I should be able to get without paying for it. At times I think the AD market needs to be re-evaluated because there are people with way too much AD considering how much time it takes to build up that kind of AD the way the game intends.
The game technically only wants you to refine AD at a rate of 24k per day. Assuming you can even get that cap on a daily basis it would take 10 days of daily grinding out Foundry, salvaging, pvp etc to get 240k. Anyone who has been playing knows how boring that is and so comes in the "greed" gripes everyone has because they want to get loot you can sell on the AH to get refined AD and probably tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of AD. However again since the game only allows for rough AD for rewards and you can refine a limited amount it would takes just over 3 months of playing every day doing nothing but daily rewards that offer rough AD to get 2 million AD assuming you can manage to NOT spend any during that time, which is nearly impossible since you will want to do things like create upgraded enchantments upgrade an artifact etc.
Some of that can be mitigated by running dungeons and salvaging but dungeons take time to run, you wont' always win anything worth salvaging and if you aren't running during a DD time then you can potentially get nothing worth while from the run at all. PVP dailies can take an hour now (more or less depending on day), it generally can take about an hour to run 4 foundry's, takes over an hour (close to 2 I think) to do the GG stuff, not to mention the daily dungeon which is dread vault that even in non epic mode can take a fair amount of time or not get completed at all (why? because almost no one wants to run this dungeon as even in epic mode the time vs. reward is pretty much not worth it for most people).
I know that the AH needs to have things in it to actually sell to people but a game that gives the items as rewards that ends up telling people to just buy the stuff just doesn't seem right, I think of the AH as a way to get crafting mats collectible stuff you can't luck into, things from events that come and go, not a place to just "buy" the gear you could get from a dungeon.
I probably threw in more than 2 cents worth of opinion but I do feel that the need/greed loot rolls need to have a better option. For guild people there should be a master looter and everyone should be able to do /roll to generate a random number from 1 - 100 and distribute loot manually. PUG runs should have an option run a greed only that disables the need button totally. However again the problem with new people that might be good players who are NOT in a guild might have issues getting gear if they can't need when they actually need something. I know it was difficult for me in the beginning.
I think with most things there is NO 1 easy solution no quick fix, someone else stated that the game is intended to allow players to need on what they can need so running with pugs and expecting them to not hit the need button is probably running at your own risk. Veterans probably take issue with this but I personally take issue with people who have been playing forever telling people to just buy the stuff and I take issue with veterans who complain at the amount of time a dungeon takes and refuses to run it properly (this is probably for a separate forum) and I will say it again if you don't have time to do a dungeon right then don't play or run one. If you can't earn money because you don't have time to run dungeons as they are supposed to be ran then either make time or shut up.
Last I heard life isn't fair and as in most games the people that can play day in and day out all do for whatever reason will clearly always have an edge on those who might only play an hour or two a day or even week. People that do nothing but PVP all day will obviously get more faster than people who pvp 1 - 4 times a day just for dailies.
To sum up:
I agree there probably should be more or more refined loot options while grouping.
I concede that it's probably not easy to make a system that everyone likes and that no matter what system is in place there are going to be people that think its unfair in some fashion.
I wish there was a better way to bring people into games and teach them general etiquette without people being jerks because there are no consequences for being a jerk and since its pretty much all anonymous people think they can say and do whatever they want. Although there is a possibility of making it a hassle to be a jerk such as banning IP address (you are NOT totally anonymous) and force people to write appeals to get to play again. Sadly as with anything that relys on human beings it can be abused where people will cite abuse get someone banned who probably didn't do anything but win a loot roll causing that person to quit rather follow an appeal process.
Personally I would like it better if the game would totally prohibit you from ever grouping with someone on your ignore list, I don't know if that is in place or not, but I was pvping and put a guy on ignore and low and behold he was on my team again and the match after that was on the opposing team. They use shame as punishment in leaving PVP as you can't queue for 30 minutes, so why not just make it so that people you ignore can't queue anything with you and it tells everyone in group that the person is on someone's ignore list and can't queue or when you invite someone you can check to see how many people ignore them giving you a good idea that you probably don't want to run with them as obviously they don't play well with others.
If an item for another class drops, well, too bad for me, next time I might be the winner.
I don't think someone "needs" the money from an item the same way someone "needs" the item to improve his/her equipment, simple as that.
It isnt MY system, its the one used by nwn. It definitely prevents people from looting 20 items in the middle of an intense fight and having loot pop-ups blocking the entire screen. Yes you can go into the settings and adjust the gui but the system should be way more intuitive than that.
Jugger Conq GF
....
A possessive pronoun here does not necessarily imply that you have invented said system; please read the context, I certainly meant that you have spoken about said system, everything else would have too much implications; where did I imply you would have thought out that system? As if it would be important who have come up with it ...
Cryptic has to make a system to protect players from people like them though...and this need/greed is ripe for those types of behaviors
Semantics. My whole point was just that I played nwn for many many years and never heard a single complaint about the loot system. MMO's that use need or greed have many pages of complaints about those systems.
Too much Schopenhauer, not enough Bukowski
Jugger Conq GF
....
^this as well.
A pre - emptive ninja on your part.
Two wrongs make a right... or wait....
Salvage =P.