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Ninja looters : Have out-smarted the system. Needs addressed yesterday ...

twgoodmantwgoodman Member Posts: 10 Arc User
edited May 2014 in PvE Discussion
We all know the defense to the "greed only" all agreed run when someone "accidently" hits needs and refuses to talk in party chat. A nice little clicky on the vote kick option and viola! No more ninja looter.

Oh wait, this doesn't work anymore as soon as the ninja looter(s) is paired with a friend. Even though it only takes 1 other person to say yes for the vote-kick to go through, the system doesn't determine the result until after everyone has voted!!!!

The new ninja-loot meta is for ninja's to click need at 25-30% time left on the roll and their buddy to refuse to click yes/no. Even though the majority in the party wants the ninja-looter gone, there is nothing we can do but watch as the timer hits zero and the loot is awarded.

FIX: As soon as the condition for vote-kick to succeed is met, kick the person THEN ! do not wait until everyone has voted.

EDIT FOR COMPLETION: Whenever a class item drops that is not my class, I'm launching vote kick against all class members that can roll need if you haven't clicked greed at 75%. Its a true shame that some ppl force this kind of protective actions, but it is what it is :(
Post edited by twgoodman on
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Comments

  • xellizxelliz Member Posts: 955 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    If they would add a "greed only" option to the loot system, problem solved.

    Personally I never run greed with random pugs, only Legit folks and guild/friends.
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  • rashylewizzrashylewizz Member Posts: 4,265 Bounty Hunter
    edited April 2014
    Why even have Need/Greed option? Just let everyone "need" on an item and be done with it.

    If this is a guild run to help out a new member, they can just pass on the item and let the new player need it anyways or make some sort of agreement.
  • twgoodmantwgoodman Member Posts: 10 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Everyone needs to stop trying to defend the status quo. Except under circumstances such as guild runs, virtually nobody runs dungeons thinking hey it sounds nice to just let someone have the loot since their class-item dropped, we all want a fair shake at making some AD. and it EVERYONE can need on EVERY item that that is the SAME thing as having a GREED only-loot option.

    Its the "gentlemen's" agreements to roll greed that the average NW bottom-feeder can't respect.
  • nwn2motb9nwn2motb9 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 35 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    twgoodman wrote: »
    Everyone needs to stop trying to defend the status quo. Except under circumstances such as guild runs, virtually nobody runs dungeons thinking hey it sounds nice to just let someone have the loot since their class-item dropped, we all want a fair shake at making some AD. and it EVERYONE can need on EVERY item that that is the SAME thing as having a GREED only-loot option.

    Its the "gentlemen's" agreements to roll greed that the average NW bottom-feeder can't respect.

    I have been playing almost a year now and early I found people were needed on anything alot but the problem was solved with class based drops ie you can't need a DC item if GWF etc. So having people need everything is a little un-fair because most parties run with 2 or more of a class ( sometimes 3) which benefits the single class toon ie DC and/or HR or TR as there is NEVER more than one of them in a party.

    Also I run 5-10 dungeons a day and the last time someone "accidently "needed was weeks ago. Maybe you guys are just having bad luck but if you state at the start of the run GREED on epics 99/100 people will do the right thing.
  • loboguildloboguild Member Posts: 2,371 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    It's amazing how simple but effective changes could enhance the game. Loot mechanic is one of them. Greed only is frequently requested, but as the account bank and DD keys have shown it might take month even if they decide to implement it.

    To their defense, they changed to the current system after an open need system failed. Ironically for the situations you described, this would make more sense right now.
    What you could also do is apply class need on BoP items and apply open need on everything BoE. Back then the change from the open need system was required because people would just need on everything. But everything was also valuable to a certain degree. Today you get these "valuable" items for peanuts in the AH and most people pass on them (rare drops from bosses just to name one example). With loot from DD chests also being BoE it was a completely different stage of the game.

    Today the consensus is to greed on all epics/everything of AH value so the loot system should reflect that development as well, just like it did with the change back then.
  • tyedortyedor Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Kicking during loot rolls need to be removed altogether. Making it easier to boot folks make it easier for the the true "ninjas" to vote kick folks after they've spent the time to help kill the boss is plain silly.

    The reason I hate pugging now is because of 1. chance I'll get booted during the loot roles and 2. being an honorable person as I am, seeing my needed tier gear drop and having to pick greed because folks will boot you if you legitimately help beat the boss and hit need because you actually need the item.

    What would be nice is if the DD chest was always BOE and the boss loot was BOP for tier gear. Done, no one would give a rats <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> if you hit need and the market can still have the market items to keep the economy going...
  • loboguildloboguild Member Posts: 2,371 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    You can gear up through chests, hitting need on everything BoE is simply not necessary. The one example is CN, but you can always try to find a group that agrees on need. I've seen such LFGs. Need is especially lackluster because all groups have multiple CW, who rely on greed to have the same chance as everybody.

    The chest has been BoE and trust me, with players having long outgeared T2 and the occasional exploit here and there, it's a very bad idea to make them BoE again. The economy would crash. I bought my first HV set during BoE chest times, can't recall the exact price, but jeez it was cheap.
  • UnknownUnknown
    edited April 2014
    This content has been removed.
  • cenden69cenden69 Member Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    What about the A Hole Groups that kick you right before the loot is divided after the final boss? Kicks should not be allowed while a loot roll is being determined. I agree that there are A Holes out there who need during greed runs but there are also MANY who kick those who did nothing wrong just to get the loot for them or their friends.

    I know others have brought this up but really having a brutal time lately in pugs. Something needs to be done, not worth playing if you can't have a shot at the end....
  • cenden69cenden69 Member Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Agree with you Magenubbie.
  • tyedortyedor Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    After thinking about it more, I do see how it would increase the number of AH listing by 4x so I agree that would probably not be a good idea, but as the original is frustrated that folks would click need when they'd agree to do a greed run, I would argue it is more frustrating to be vote kicked and not have a chance of any loot. I've been asked to follow along with a guildy just so this doesn't happen to them.

    So the answer is what? Only do guild runs? Don't trust the LFG system? Sounds like a broken system in my opinion...
  • fgreyspearfgreyspear Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 472 Bounty Hunter
    edited April 2014
    Many players do not speak English. Kicking them, because you could not get them to return the loot is pro.
    Stay frosty.
  • sockmunkeysockmunkey Member Posts: 4,622 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    The biggest problem with any system are the users of it. Ive always believed that this entire system for loot is a dieing relic, and in as much of a need for replacement as tab targeting was.

    The system needs to simply do the rolls for everyone and assign loot personally and privately. No, will see what you get, therefore no one will cry or complain about it. It cant be cheated, it cant be gamed, and if implemented properly. With weighted rolls based on previous wins or losses. It can be as close to fair as anything can get.

    I don't honestly understand the need to continue to cling to a system that has been the source of so much friction for so long, in so many MMOs and not just this one.
  • sangrinesangrine Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 575 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Here's my Rant.

    End the need/greed/pass system.
    Assign loot automatically (without a popup), either randomly or using an algorithm.
    You want T1/T2 gear? It's in the DD chest and on the auction house.
    You want pvp gear? Play pvp and buy your pvp gear.

    Immersion:
    Popups and huge taskbars reduce my immersion into the game.
    To me, most first person shooters are more immersive than most mmo RPG's.
    Why? because first person shooters have minimalist HUD's and no loot pop-up's.
    NW has a minimalist HUD which is good, but please end the loot pop-up's.
  • ianthewizard2012ianthewizard2012 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,142 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    rashylewizz wrote: »
    Why even have Need/Greed option? Just let everyone "need" on an item and be done with it.
    +1

    I don't understand why they label players who want other classes' gears for extra cash as "being greedy". I have never clicked that button.
  • query523query523 Member Posts: 1,515 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    I think being able to set loot to 'all greed' would be great. If for no ther reason so I would not have to spam Shift2 to get that junk off of my screen. It does need to be an option though because of T2 off-hand drops. If I am in VT and someone in the party needs the off-hand generally we agree that everyone else passes/ they need on it because they are BoP.
  • ryugasiriusryugasirius Member Posts: 996 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    twgoodman wrote: »
    We all know the defense to the "greed only" all agreed run when someone "accidently" hits needs and refuses to talk in party chat. A nice little clicky on the vote kick option and viola! No more ninja looter.

    Oh wait, this doesn't work anymore as soon as the ninja looter(s) is paired with a friend. Even though it only takes 1 other person to say yes for the vote-kick to go through, the system doesn't determine the result until after everyone has voted!!!! .

    Aaaaaand that's why you should never greed with PUGs...
  • lewel555lewel555 Member Posts: 616 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    xelliz wrote: »
    If they would add a "greed only" option to the loot system, problem solved.

    Personally I never run greed with random pugs, only Legit folks and guild/friends.

    Yep, a "greed only" toggle when creating a party. So simple.
    As for NW_Legit_Community runs, I did see some cases of ninja-loot. And admittedly this is where the ninja has the most chances to be successful. One wolf and four sheep.
  • UnknownUnknown
    edited April 2014
    This content has been removed.
  • maroon89maroon89 Member Posts: 51 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    It would be nice if they could code it where you couldn't "need" it if you couldn't use the item or just distribute the loot randomly and be done with it. But LOL at greed runs with PUGS, you know you're gonna get burned!
  • aethanasaethanas Member Posts: 232 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Ah yes, after weeks of not playing and not running dungeons I got into a group where nobody said a thing about greed or need run and after needing for a ring while killing the adds I realised everyone greeded but then even apologising was useless, I got kicked in an instant.
    A greed only option would thus be nice, as it could save you from these instant kicking greedy guts.
  • skalt112skalt112 Member Posts: 1,089 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    One of the reasons why i quit pve. I don't read minds , and I'm a GF. double whammy. Most games I've played there is an honor system where you only need if you are going to equip. In this game you never know when to need or greed. PvP is much easier, you just do your job and collect the reward at the end...no need for rolling and no chance to hit the wrong button or guess wrong on which button to hit.
  • oicidrazoicidraz Member Posts: 627 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    As a lot of ppl said, there should be an option at the beginning so everything will be greeded automatically, this will fix the "vote for every uncommon-rare-epic" item that is dropped too (which is really annoying) and if there's ppl that want to help a guildmate or whatever, just don't use this option and do the dungeon in the normal way (I mean like now)...
  • rashylewizzrashylewizz Member Posts: 4,265 Bounty Hunter
    edited April 2014
    oicidraz wrote: »
    As a lot of ppl said, there should be an option at the beginning so everything will be greeded automatically, this will fix the "vote for every uncommon-rare-epic" item that is dropped too (which is really annoying) and if there's ppl that want to help a guildmate or whatever, just don't use this option and do the dungeon in the normal way (I mean like now)...

    Why even have the need option then?

    If it is an all-guild run to help gear up a person, then they can work it out amongst themselves
  • overddriveoverddrive Member Posts: 722 Bounty Hunter
    edited April 2014
    I think this type of looting system is really bad. I much prefer the old nwn system of having a collective bank that all of the loot goes into and when the dungeon is over you go to the "bank" and roll a d100 for who gets to pick first. So whoever rolls highest gets first pick and on down the line to the person who rolled lowest, then repeat till all the loot is gone. No need, no greed, no vote kicking. Dungeons would take longer due to the extra time for loot split, but multi runs would still be fairly fast; the loot from every dungeon would collect in the same "bank" until the party went to the bank to split. The whole party would have to be present for the roll to take place. Imo that would be more "fair" and it would facilitate some socialization that normally never takes place.
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  • oicidrazoicidraz Member Posts: 627 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    rashylewizz wrote: »
    Why even have the need option then?

    If it is an all-guild run to help gear up a person, then they can work it out amongst themselves

    Maybe for MC?, there is BoP stuff?...
  • rashylewizzrashylewizz Member Posts: 4,265 Bounty Hunter
    edited April 2014
    oicidraz wrote: »
    Maybe for MC?, there is BoP stuff?...

    And? People can get it for their alts. They spent as much resources farming for gear, they should have equal chance to get the reward
  • aethanasaethanas Member Posts: 232 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    overddrive wrote: »
    I think this type of looting system is really bad. I much prefer the old nwn system of having a collective bank that all of the loot goes into and when the dungeon is over you go to the "bank" and roll a d100 for who gets to pick first. So whoever rolls highest gets first pick and on down the line to the person who rolled lowest, then repeat till all the loot is gone. No need, no greed, no vote kicking. Dungeons would take longer due to the extra time for loot split, but multi runs would still be fairly fast; the loot from every dungeon would collect in the same "bank" until the party went to the bank to split. The whole party would have to be present for the roll to take place. Imo that would be more "fair" and it would facilitate some socialization that normally never takes place.

    The option "only need allowed" would have the same consequences, no need for your elaborated system.
  • UnknownUnknown
    edited April 2014
    This content has been removed.
  • reiwulfreiwulf Member Posts: 2,687 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    I don't see why is it wrong to have it work like in any other games, all the group did the dungeon, and the boss may drop various items, but if he drops something for a class, and that class needs it then he/she should get it, next time you could get something for your class. That's how it works in most games I've played and I don't see why people think different in here.
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