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does PWE hate tanks or somthing? (PvE)
theoddis1
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 353 Arc User
well to start off.....My main is a GWF IV Sentinel tank and this adorable pocket pet 70% of the time gives me the awww so cute "buff" that reduces my threat so I cant do my job... keep the baddies off the squishies and reduced threat is not a good thing in that case.
yes I know just dont use the pet... and yes it is kinda nitpicking but if it were only that.
With the new changes in the next module Sent will most likely not be able to hold aggro meaning I would have to go destroyer to get a spot for dungeons or just send all my enchants back to my CW since that is what PWE apparently wants everyone to play...
GFs arent seeing the love ether their threat gen is not bad... but its not very good ether but at least they get a taunt (enforced threat) so they have that going for them, but still without the DPS output of a good GWF Sent build tank why would anyone even want to bring a GF?
it seems like ether they want to get back to every dungeon party consisting of 3 CWs a TR and a DC or they are trying to balance the classes and failing miserably.
I know what the idea was with giving IV to GWFs and SM to the GFs they wanted to give GWFs a spec for tanking and GFs a spec for DPS. and all they did was make GFs obsolete and IV GWFs DPS monsters and prime targets for the nerf bat. in the new module I dont mind losing my insane DPS for increased threat and maybe an actual taunt that would be nice.
with the amount of money I have spent on this game to make my GWFs one of the best tanks in my guild, having PWE put on their nerf boots and stomping a mudhole in my spec kinda rustles the jimmies. I know there are HRs out there feeling my pain (I am so sorry for your loss)
ok I am done beating on the devs for now but seriously try to make all the classes viable and not just a couple please
yes I know just dont use the pet... and yes it is kinda nitpicking but if it were only that.
With the new changes in the next module Sent will most likely not be able to hold aggro meaning I would have to go destroyer to get a spot for dungeons or just send all my enchants back to my CW since that is what PWE apparently wants everyone to play...
GFs arent seeing the love ether their threat gen is not bad... but its not very good ether but at least they get a taunt (enforced threat) so they have that going for them, but still without the DPS output of a good GWF Sent build tank why would anyone even want to bring a GF?
it seems like ether they want to get back to every dungeon party consisting of 3 CWs a TR and a DC or they are trying to balance the classes and failing miserably.
I know what the idea was with giving IV to GWFs and SM to the GFs they wanted to give GWFs a spec for tanking and GFs a spec for DPS. and all they did was make GFs obsolete and IV GWFs DPS monsters and prime targets for the nerf bat. in the new module I dont mind losing my insane DPS for increased threat and maybe an actual taunt that would be nice.
with the amount of money I have spent on this game to make my GWFs one of the best tanks in my guild, having PWE put on their nerf boots and stomping a mudhole in my spec kinda rustles the jimmies. I know there are HRs out there feeling my pain (I am so sorry for your loss)
ok I am done beating on the devs for now but seriously try to make all the classes viable and not just a couple please
Post edited by theoddis1 on
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Also, another Issue with 'tanking' in this game is: Life Steal scales too good with AoE. One thing that should definately be introduced is a system where each ability has individual scaling with various stats. An AoE ability with unlimited targets should not be able to trigger anything, a 5 target max ability should not scale for more than 20% of the stated activation chance/magnitude.
I don't have an Issue with GWFs tanking, mind you. But I have an issue with it when a class is basically 'unneeded' because another class or, in case of Clerics, a STAT is overperforming. Personally, I would have nerfed the 'self sustain' on a GWF by Lifestealing first, before messing with the Feat trees (this would also have cut down Control Wizards, who would thus no longer be able to heal themselves from dead to full in 1-2 skills).
Yea, completely agree, Life Steal should be nerfed, that's one of the things that contributes to make the DC (sometimes) and GF (90% of the time) unwanted... while in other games those are indispensable roles in dungeons or large quests... but again, to make a Tank actually Tank in this game, Threat should be more influeced by the distance in which one is to an enemy or give them more Taunt abillities, so the GF/GWF could tank better...
DCs are currently rather ok. Lowbie groups take them for healing, higher end groups take them for debuffs. they always have a spot in groups. Just because you can do all content without them doesn't mean they are bad. you can do all content without any particular class. Most groups still prefer a DC than not. Those with a clue atleast.
CW deal far too much dmg, which is why they can lifesteal to full health with every single encounter/daily. The problem isn't lifesteal, it's CW dmg.
the other issue is that cc and aoe dps far outvalue a dedicated tank and that is more of the dungeon design's fault
i am sure they have a plan, it just must take years to develop fully.
A) DR of defense (where every piece has tons of defense for this class, reducing it's usefulness)
I played a GF, I still play him, but only because I am in a nice guild who accepts a bit of diversity. Well, I do run in my KC set, ofc, to increase the speed (referring to "diversity" - ha!).
But tanking at a boss (which is the primary task of the tank imho), where I fall to 2 hits without shield, which broke a few seconds ago from trash mobs and their AoE ... well, being a GF sucks.
GF definitely is not "mark all the adds and run around in a circle" - which afaik is the only reason to probably take a tank with you if you are inexperienced. If you know thy moves, any other class can tank in FH as well. IF you want to call this running around with mobs on thy heels "tanking".
The GF on the other hand is screwed over by dungeon design. Too much CC'able trash that needs to be burned as fast as possible.
The most efficient party is 5 geared AOE DPS.
Jugger Conq GF
....
Admittedly that has been a problem for a while in the upper end dungeons. In the Teir 1 dungeons its not so bad.
Tanks: Specifically GF, tank incredibly well, they can take a pummeling, and they hold agro very well on one to 5 mobs. Unfortunately... the upper level dungeons are designed where you get mobbed by 10+ mobs repeatedly. The GF cannot hold agro in those situations. He loses it quickly. And most of the Boss mobs rarely melee you.
They sit and throw things from a distance or use powers/breath weapons from a distance so they don't even need to be meleed. Making the actual class kinda pointless. I do wonder why they did this.
BUT... What they do.. they do really really well... but... errm... once you get to the higher level dungeons and the way they're designed... it negates all of their strong points that make them worthwhile.
The class itself is excellent... but... nothing up there takes advantage of their strengths. Which is shocking.
GWFs though... Yeah those are doing very very well.
The CWs have a weakness.... its in the stronger mobs with a lot of health and fewer in number, and... due to the way the CW is designed... they literally self nerf the fewer and fewer mobs there are. Throw in GWF Destroyers they handle the weakness on the team the CWs have.
The destroyer GWFs compliments the CWs team in a way that makes the 2 GWF/2CW team incredibly functional in the dungeons when combined with the DC and their buffs, due to the mass mob attacks.
So I think the OP is barking up the wrong tree, its the GF that is having the Dungeon related issues. Not the GWF. Of course... the GF is the real tank, the GWF is the damager.
Its the GF that's got problems due to dungeon design.
Here.... I'll tell you the dirty little secret and why the CWs likely wont ever be nerfed... First you have to understand that the upper level dungeons are add fests of a good 10+ mobs almost always.... an the boss fights are even worse.
Then you have to understand how the CW was actually designed to understand why the Devs painted themselves into the corner on this.... The CW was supposed to be a controller, it had two ways of doing this... Single Target Crowd control, (ie, the chokes, and freezes, and stuns).
And... Damage... BUT ONLY on HUGE groups of mobs... not on individual targets (ie, control through damage).
CWs have Passive Feats, that literally increase the damage the more and more mobs you throw at them. Soo... they actually self nerf the fewer and fewer mobs there are. Their damage starts to escalate higher and higher the larger the crowd of mobs you throw at them.
Throw 10 mobs at the CW he looks like a god... throw 1 or 2 strong ones? Well not so much....
(unless he's an MoF, but then he doesn't have the crowd damage escalation the Spellstorm does).
Its designed that way so when the party gets overwhelmed the CW can step in and save their bacon. But... if there's no mass mobs or crowds like that, then the other single target damagers actually overshadow him.
Problem: (And how the devs painted themselves into a corner.) The upper level dungeons are literally add fests and eat entire parties for breakfast unless they've got some kind of crowd control. You can really see this in most of the boss fights. (think CN). They are not survivable for any party without the current damage per mob escalation the CW was designed around. So... nerfing the CWs only hurts all the other classes and makes the dungeons uncompletable.
Seriously. With CWs on the party my TR literally becomes irrelevant except for one thing and that is dps on bosses, which isn't actually needed in an of itself. Same goes for HRs and GFs to an extent.
This is a huge problem with the game... the way its designed around aoe when you have classes that don't excel in that field makes those classes inferior in every regard.
It's going to be interesting to see how Cryptic intend to tackle this. Meanwhile I'm going to be enjoying super-easy-god-mode on the CW.
Does this work? No. There is no point in taking a GF along. I am sorry to say that!
even the immune mobs r more easily dealt with by rogues. a guardian has block and maybe 20% more resist than a rogue, while a rogue can have 40% deflect + ITC. rogues can easily replace guardians as tanks and it tends to make boss fights easier (moreso for the rogue).
if a guardian tanks, there tends to be a swarm of mobs surrounding the boss and preventing the rogue from targetting the boss with encounters/dailies. i can't tell u how often i had to sit and wait until i had a clear view of the boss because the guardian is attempting to do a job that's been passed onto rogues.
it's actually kinda funny. rogues do not want the tank to do their job so the rogue can do their job.
No need to tank and spank, people just burn all the mobs.
Make harder dungeons, mobs that could 2-shot ranged characters and maybe GF makes a comeback
won't such mobs rip apart guardians too since outside of block, they only get like 20% more resist than the average person
oh, guess i never ran into a guardian that dropped his aoe threat
And yes this only generally applies to teams who go to MC because they actually need the gear from the place. That's all this discussion should be relevant for anyway, not the overgeared artifact/fragment farmers.
I play my (PVE) TR far more than I play my GF, so I share your pain.
With that said, there isn't any dungeons that require a GF, again, not a problem. But, GF are interchangeable with GWFs in many cases, but lack the DPS. GFs should be able to at least spec to the DPS of an IV/sent GWF, at least. Considering they don't have the AoE of GWFs, I wouldn't even mind if they had the DPS comparable to destroyer GWFs. Either that or be capable of holding aggro to large groups of mobs.
Again, the only reason a GF would be tanking a boss is if the boss was somehow dangerous. It's almost never the case, the boss is usually slow and easily avoidable, just a minor nuisance in a boss fight.
Instead, the real danger comes from hordes of adds, that can't really be tanked by a GF (with 5-10 adds the guard drops in a fraction of second, and without his shield the GF is only slightly tankier than any other class). And CWs happen to be way better at controlling those adds.
1) No diminishing returns on stacking CC.
2) Lifesteal high dps and no diminishing returns on lifesteal from large AE attacks.
3) No real mobs designed to force mitigation tanking. Most mobs that cannot be CCd are also big and slow and designed around dodging.
4) No real tiers in defense. Many games have dramatic tiers in defense between the least mitigating and most mitigating classes. This game is very linear at best. There isn't a huge pay off to being as tanky as you can be when playing as a tank class, and that appears to be by design. Being a plate class is barely distinguished in the game mechanics from being a robe class.
5) Swarms of adds reward avoiding damage more than actually taking it. It is difficult to make mitigation look numerically attractive when the consequences of standing still are 10 things hitting you. You take steps to avoid attacks by necessity, but then every attack you avoid by moving your feet is stat points wasted in mitigation. If you are just going to run from certain death what was the point of all that defense?
That said you can find stuff to do with high mitigation, but its pretty clear why isn't the most popular thing to do.