True. I haven't checked preview shard, but heard Fox's Shift gets hit hard, but all abilities get a supposed 40% damage buff, but split shot(40% nerf I hear). True?
I don't think ALL abilities get a 40% buff, but quite a few get a significant buff. HR has a ton of powers that are useless and a few that are really really good. The trick is knowing which to put points in, slot, and use, and when to slot and use them. Splitshot and foxshift are default must haves. Easily called crutches. I think the point to the nerf/balancing is to make the class more well rounded.
fyi, fox shift was the LONE MELEE ABILITY THE HR HAD, and that's getting nerfed, so quit whining.
And does a rogue need even MORE dodges and escapes? Lets see...
1)stealth(first and foremost). I think you forget what I said earlier. TRs stealth is a class feature, whereas HRs is a daily. An HR has to build his daily up, does a TR have to build his stealth up? NO.
2)TRs also have dashes and cc escapes: Vengeance's Pursuit(which breaks cc might I add), Deft Strike, Impossible to Catch(name says it all). Most a ranger has is their teleports, and marauder's escape(which doesn't break cc, still takes damage in transit, so its not a DODGE).
3)Fox's Shift got nerfed way worse than your falsely advertising. Do the math: it hits 1 target at most twice. its power was in the fact that it could hit one target 3-4 times! By taking away 2 of the attacks, they do less damage. Less damage does not equal same damage!
SO, explaining that a hr has more ways to escape than a class with cc breaking, immunity, and instant de-targeting(stealth) tactics in and of itself is BS.
Like I said, they do a lot, but others do it better.
You know what hrs, no forget it, any other class would love? The ability to...
1)be invisible... permanently
2)Have an encounter that makes me immune to damage, and all control abilities
3)2 encounters that can break cc
4)not only the ability to become invisible, but a daily tailored to make you invisible for even longer
5)a daily that's so OP right now that it doesn't care about your opponents def or your own armor pen(shocking execution)
So please, I don't want to hear a tr crying that hr's dodges need to be nerfed, but all a tr has to offer isn't touched on at all. Once again, not saying tr's are OP, just saying that classes who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
Thornward and that invisibility goes right away. I don't think HRs are OP compared to TRs but they are an anti-tr like no other class. Relative to the other classes they are where they should be, even post nerf. The anti-HR? Not sure there is such a class. All classes have good weapons vs them, there is just not that one class that "has their number", and I think this is what upsets people.
The class is simply elegant. Can't say they cannot facetank a gwf. They can. But is is a facetank-dodge-ranged-facetank type constant shifting and knowing exactly what to do and when. Constant shifting means more stamina (endless dodges), more action point generation (dailies that are more like encounter powers), more damage (aspect of the serpent), lowered cd's, and basically twice the number of encounter slots of most of the other classes. Yet somehow it is balanced, especially after the upcoming nerfs which really are not that bad; split shot is taking a big hit, and fox shift will be less of a HR;s version of "bloodbath" on encounter, but fox shift will also be upgraded to prevent the hr from taking damage or being subject to control effects while the animation is playing. Fox shift as a closer to clear a node after raining ranged hell on it for a few seconds is often disrupted by cc or death while in the animation. Nice to know that while this will still be a good closer in terms of damage it will not be "bloodbath jr" anymore.
Thornward and that invisibility goes right away. I don't think HRs are OP compared to TRs but they are an anti-tr like no other class. Relative to the other classes they are where they should be, even post nerf. The anti-HR? Not sure there is such a class. All classes have good weapons vs them, there is just not that one class that "has their number", and I think this is what upsets people.
The class is simply elegant. Can't say they cannot facetank a gwf. They can. But is is a facetank-dodge-ranged-facetank type constant shifting and knowing exactly what to do and when. Constant shifting means more stamina (endless dodges), more action point generation (dailies that are more like encounter powers), more damage (aspect of the serpent), lowered cd's, and basically twice the number of encounter slots of most of the other classes. Yet somehow it is balanced, especially after the upcoming nerfs which really are not that bad; split shot is taking a big hit, and fox shift will be less of a HR;s version of "bloodbath" on encounter, but fox shift will also be upgraded to prevent the hr from taking damage or being subject to control effects while the animation is playing. Fox shift as a closer to clear a node after raining ranged hell on it for a few seconds is often disrupted by cc or death while in the animation. Nice to know that while this will still be a good closer in terms of damage it will not be "bloodbath jr" anymore.
Maybe. But HR was originally a foil for a few classes. They could root GFs and GWFs, even in unstoppable(which was whined about, now roots aren't as effective). TRs complained that HRs could knock them out of stealth(other classes could too, but people forget that GWFs are the true counter to permastealth). If theres any class that had their number, it was CWs. If the CW started with Entangling Force, the ranger was fish food. Constricting Arrow was a ranger's only defense to a CW(and that was whined about, see a pattern here?). Not saying I do or don't like PVP how it is... Just saying that a lot of TRs are complaining, when theyre one of the 2 classes sitting on top of the PVP spectrum.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
Maybe. But HR was originally a foil for a few classes. They could root GFs and GWFs, even in unstoppable(which was whined about, now roots aren't as effective).
It was confirmed from the very earliest days that it was a BUG. In a game where CC is paramount in its importance as a game-making tool the HR CCd everyone and everything in its spot, a ranged-attacker class that ignores even immunities and roots for more than 5~6 seconds, as well as another stun that seriously hinders power activation and timing for 6 seconds.
Whine about it? Hell, yeah.
TRs complained that HRs could knock them out of stealth(other classes could too, but people forget that GWFs are the true counter to permastealth).
Naw. TR's complained that the HRs could use that melee skill repeatedly and endlessly until it hit something. There's a difference, and a big one. Any AoE power could hit and shorten the duration of stealth, sometimes ruining the power rotation. But nobody gets to just go *shoom shoom shoom shoom shoom shoom shoom shoom shoom* indefinately at that speed of repetition until it auto-tracks and hits something in stealth.
Oh, btw, the GWFs are not a counter to permas. There is no direct counter to permas except the PoB TR builds. The GWFs simply aren't bothered by permas.
If theres any class that had their number, it was CWs. If the CW started with Entangling Force, the ranger was fish food. Constricting Arrow was a ranger's only defense to a CW(and that was whined about, see a pattern here?). Not saying I do or don't like PVP how it is... Just saying that a lot of TRs are complaining, when theyre one of the 2 classes sitting on top of the PVP spectrum.
They've got a good reason to complain. TRs don't mind a nerf to stealth IF they are given some alternative way of combat that wasn't so heavily dependant on stealth. What do you think happens to a TR that is out of stealth gets jumped by a HR or a CW?
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
It was confirmed from the very earliest days that it was a BUG. In a game where CC is paramount in its importance as a game-making tool the HR CCd everyone and everything in its spot, a ranged-attacker class that ignores even immunities and roots for more than 5~6 seconds, as well as another stun that seriously hinders power activation and timing for 6 seconds.
Whine about it? Hell, yeah.
I wouldn't say HRs cc'ed everyone and everything... Do you see CN being run by 5 HRs? Nope... as far as pve, it was all about "how many CWs could be brought to the table, or a permastealth running through dungeons alone". And people obviously don't understand about Constricting Arrow: it does a 1 second stun 3 times in a 6 second time. It DOES NOT stun for the whole 6 seconds. That's as situational as TR's smoke bomb: people can simply walk out of your aoe, but they'll also be dazed for a similar amount of time. Is that fair that that isn't touched upon, whereas a 1 second stun is nerfed?
The HRs cc immunity comes from a DAILY. Not an encounter, whereas TRs have at least 2 ways(depending on paragon path) to "break cc". Do rangers? nope. Do clerics? nope. Do guardian fighters? nope. Do wizards even? nope. GWFs and TRs are the only 2 classes that can do that.
Naw. TR's complained that the HRs could use that melee skill repeatedly and endlessly until it hit something. There's a difference, and a big one. Any AoE power could hit and shorten the duration of stealth, sometimes ruining the power rotation. But nobody gets to just go *shoom shoom shoom shoom shoom shoom shoom shoom shoom* indefinately at that speed of repetition until it auto-tracks and hits something in stealth.
Im talking about thorn ward. I heard sooo many TRs whine about that ability since they came out(HR). That a class can throw an aoe with the purpose of making sure a permastealth cant stay on a node was originally a bigger complaint I heard than Fox's Shift.
Oh, btw, the GWFs are not a counter to permas. There is no direct counter to permas except the PoB TR builds. The GWFs simply aren't bothered by permas.
Correction" Yes, gwf's aren't a counter to permas. Thanks for clearing that, but... other classes cant tank a TR running Bilethorn, Tenebrous, pinging them while invisible. That's an obvious advantage, is all.
They've got a good reason to complain. TRs don't mind a nerf to stealth IF they are given some alternative way of combat that wasn't so heavily dependant on stealth. What do you think happens to a TR that is out of stealth gets jumped by a HR or a CW?
The problem is, so much is being nerfed for them, that 90% of the TR population went permastealth. I understand this. But is it not fair for any other squishy to get targeted by CW cc? The HRs pros get thrown out the door if a CW hits their cc first... they might as well wait to respawn. Shoot, DCs have no interrupts other than a daily to stop a CW from casting. TRs have at least 2 ways to break out of cc, gwf being the only other class that can do that.
Relax man. Im not disagreeing with your point of view. Im just saying that I have heard TRs complain a lot, which is fair, but they get mighty defensive when their own tactics are called out too. Its hypocrisy. You cant say "oh, this ability/setup is OP versus me, it should be nerfed", then when youre using an annoying tactic, such as permastealth, you cant say "oh, its not OP, it shouldn't be dealt with".
As annoying as permastealth is, go right ahead and use it. I just don't like TRs who use it, then cry for a nerf bat to another class.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
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unbahMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 25Arc User
Can TRs still solo epic dungeons? Don't even start to "welcome to the TR's world" with me as long as TRs can still solo epic dungeons.
A "TR" can't solo epic dungeons. Only specific build can solo epic dungeons, so get your facts straight, and please don't generalise. As shocking as it may be, not every TR is a perma. And what about permas soloing dungeons? I say let them. I belive we both can make 2 or 3 guild runs, sell the drop, split the ADs and forget the whole thing, while perma TR will still be throwing toothpicks at last boss on his first run.
Now, to elaborate on something you totally missed here. I play TR as a main since 3rd day of open beta. I don't play perma. I dont like permas, i find them boring. I don't do top tier pvp and can't solo epic dungeons. Yet, I always get nerfed in the name of so called "PVP balance". And I hate it as much as you would hate to see HR's dodge nerfed.
Back on topic. Yes, HRs dodge is OP. I can slot dazing, lashing and impact. Still, HR will dodge all five. Tough luck, life isn't fair. But please, stop messing up others pve just because you had a few bad pvp matches.
A "TR" can't solo epic dungeons. Only specific build can solo epic dungeons, so get your facts straight, and please don't generalise. As shocking as it may be, not every TR is a perma. And what about permas soloing dungeons? I say let them. I belive we both can make 2 or 3 guild runs, sell the drop, split the ADs and forget the whole thing, while perma TR will still be throwing toothpicks at last boss on his first run.
My facts are quite straight, I am fully aware that it requires a permastealth build. A perma TR is still a TR and they can still do something no other class can do. There's no room for TRs to cry as long as perma allows them to solo like that. Is my statement calling for it to be nerfed or removed? Definitely not. It's just that "welcome to TR's world" is a ridiculous thing to say.
Now, to elaborate on something you totally missed here. I play TR as a main since 3rd day of open beta. I don't play perma. I dont like permas, i find them boring. I don't do top tier pvp and can't solo epic dungeons. Yet, I always get nerfed in the name of so called "PVP balance". And I hate it as much as you would hate to see HR's dodge nerfed.
Except that when TRs get nerfed, they have permastealth to migrate to. I don't agree that permastealth should exist, but I can accept that most TRs don't feel they have any other options. People wanting to reduce HRs to only have two or three dodges like a CW without increasing the dodge distance to match a CW's is just vindictive and small-minded.
I wonder how many people who are crying for constant HR nerfs in PvP actually have HRs. Or is it just that since they're not a heavy armor class people feel entitled to perma-root and oneshot them?
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unbahMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 25Arc User
My facts are quite straight, I am fully aware that it requires a permastealth build. A perma TR is still a TR and they can still do something no other class can do. There's no room for TRs to cry as long as perma allows them to solo like that. Is my statement calling for it to be nerfed or removed? Definitely not. It's just that "welcome to TR's world" is a ridiculous thing to say.
So, you are allowed to feel bad about even mentioning a nerf. I am not allowed to feel bad about nerfs that already happened, and those bound to happen, just because there are some permas out there that can solo epic dungeons. You could at least make up an excuse that makes more sense. Like everyones favorite pvp. Oh well..
And in case you didn't notice, Im against your dodge nerf. In fact, Im against nerfing any class based solely on pvp. Be that HR, TR or any other class. Except permas and IV sents. But these are specs, not classes. And both will get nerfed.
I was really on the fence about this until I saw a non-epic geared HR defend a flag in pvp against 3 players today. Obviously the guy really knew his stuff - but c'mon, it's not that hard to figure out what he was doing.
Now, if PvP balance should affect PvE - well that's another argument I think, and I personally don't give a toss. I think HR's are pretty average in PvE along with the other classes. So yeah, I wish there was a way to fix this without diminishing the game for the people who aren't avid PvP players.
Maybe. But HR was originally a foil for a few classes. They could root GFs and GWFs, even in unstoppable(which was whined about, now roots aren't as effective). TRs complained that HRs could knock them out of stealth(other classes could too, but people forget that GWFs are the true counter to permastealth). If theres any class that had their number, it was CWs. If the CW started with Entangling Force, the ranger was fish food. Constricting Arrow was a ranger's only defense to a CW(and that was whined about, see a pattern here?). Not saying I do or don't like PVP how it is... Just saying that a lot of TRs are complaining, when theyre one of the 2 classes sitting on top of the PVP spectrum.
I agree TR's have nothing to complain about in pvp. I HATE slotting thornward and instead like to have marauders, fox, and constricting, but some TR's almost require thornward. CW should still get 3 interupts from constricting. I like to fire off disruptive followed by constricting then marauders rush, fox shift and steel breeze- they are usually dead by then and its a nice marauders escape + split shot for the red team members that came in to help the cw. What kills me (literally) is when two CWs get the jump on me and chain-cc me to death. Hello elven battle enchant.
i have to agree with OP rangers mobility is a little ridiculous, they dodge, dodge, dodge, dodge, dodge, marauders dash. PLUS root, constricting arrow, disruptive shot. im not one for nerfs tho, just saying a good hr 1v1 will dance around me laughing and when i do catch them they arent as squishy as youd expect
I wouldn't say HRs cc'ed everyone and everything... Do you see CN being run by 5 HRs? Nope... as far as pve, it was all about "how many CWs could be brought to the table, or a permastealth running through dungeons alone".
I couldn't care less about PvE because you don't hear mobs complaining about balance. So stop dragging in irrelevant garbage to the discussion and concentrate at the topic at hand.
And people obviously don't understand about Constricting Arrow: it does a 1 second stun 3 times in a 6 second time. It DOES NOT stun for the whole 6 seconds. That's as situational as TR's smoke bomb: people can simply walk out of your aoe, but they'll also be dazed for a similar amount of time. Is that fair that that isn't touched upon, whereas a 1 second stun is nerfed?
1. You obviously don't have a clue as to just how disrupting and dangerous CA is. Try any class that actually has some major skills that require actual activation time, unlike the pew-pew quickdraw HRs with all major skills being instant activation.
2. Your powers were never "nerfed". It was corrected. Get your facts straight. Which part of IT WAS IGNORING IMMUNITIES" do you not understand?
The HRs cc immunity comes from a DAILY. Not an encounter, whereas TRs have at least 2 ways(depending on paragon path) to "break cc". Do rangers? nope. Do clerics? nope. Do guardian fighters? nope. Do wizards even? nope. GWFs and TRs are the only 2 classes that can do that.
You wanna know what it feels like to be a TR without ITC? Try go fighting another HR or a CW with using only 2 dodges max, no ranged attacks/only melees, no Fox's Cunning, no Marauder's Escape, and have fun walking up 80' with the two ranged classes spamming every attack they have in their arsenal against you. I mentioned before this is the reason why TRs have no other choice but to rely on long durations of stealth. It's not as if NW TRs have out-of-stealth combat utility powers like other stealthed-classes in other games, no?
Besides, why are we having this conversation again? Was this not about HRs and how once they abused bugged powers until they fixed it?
Im talking about thorn ward. I heard sooo many TRs whine about that ability since they came out(HR). That a class can throw an aoe with the purpose of making sure a permastealth cant stay on a node was originally a bigger complaint I heard than Fox's Shift.
Thorn is a scrubby PvE power at best. No real TR complains about it.
Correction" Yes, gwf's aren't a counter to permas. Thanks for clearing that, but... other classes cant tank a TR running Bilethorn, Tenebrous, pinging them while invisible. That's an obvious advantage, is all.
That's right. Keep digressing, shifting the blame/arrow to the TRs. Keep pretending this isn't a thread about HRs, please.
The problem is, so much is being nerfed for them, that 90% of the TR population went permastealth. I understand this. But is it not fair for any other squishy to get targeted by CW cc? The HRs pros get thrown out the door if a CW hits their cc first... they might as well wait to respawn. Shoot, DCs have no interrupts other than a daily to stop a CW from casting. TRs have at least 2 ways to break out of cc, gwf being the only other class that can do that.
Excluding premade level combatants, 90% of TRs in PvP are non-perma.
I hear frickin' idiots go "LOL sissy perma" as they kiss the ground all the time, when evidently my TR build is physically impossible to run as a perma.
I'll be blunt here. Most people who complain about 'permas' couldn't tell the difference even if one of them came from behind and bit them on their buttocks.
And stop frickin' weaseling to try fool people that TRs have 2 ways to break free. Only one is available per path, one of them works fine, the other's a broken heap of crapshi* that recently lost all meaning as any kind of encounter.
Relax man. Im not disagreeing with your point of view. Im just saying that I have heard TRs complain a lot, which is fair, but they get mighty defensive when their own tactics are called out too. Its hypocrisy. You cant say "oh, this ability/setup is OP versus me, it should be nerfed", then when youre using an annoying tactic, such as permastealth, you cant say "oh, its not OP, it shouldn't be dealt with".
So which TR in this thread ever mentioned that? Nice strawman there.
As annoying as permastealth is, go right ahead and use it. I just don't like TRs who use it, then cry for a nerf bat to another class.
Which is totally irrelevant, as there were plenty of other classes who complained about HR powers that were plain broken. Now they're fixed, so people don't complain. End of story.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I couldn't care less about PvE because you don't hear mobs complaining about balance. So stop dragging in irrelevant garbage to the discussion and concentrate at the topic at hand.
Nice try! people were talking about both pve and pvp in general, not the poster's fault that youre focusing on pve. You want to discuss about it in pvp, go search "waaaah, HR is OP in pvp". Im sure theres plenty of them there. Otherwise, don't try to troll in a GENERAL(not pvp or pve specific) discussion about them.
You obviously don't have a clue as to just how disrupting and dangerous CA is. Try any class that actually has some major skills that require actual activation time, unlike the pew-pew quickdraw HRs with all major skills being instant activation..
Quickdraw?! I laugh at this. Most of their best abilities(split shot, aimed shot, commanding shot, thorn ward, rain of arrows), require significant telegraphing/activating/aoe placement times, so its obvious YOU don't have a clue what HRs weaknesses are lol.
By the way, as has been stated, Ive played every class in pvp. Nice try with that troll
Your powers were never "nerfed". It was corrected. Get your facts straight. Which part of IT WAS IGNORING IMMUNITIES" do you not understand?.
Correction or nerf its all the same anymore. If people "corrected" how permastealth works(as the devs even said it wasn't how they wanted it), you would all be whining that it was "nerfed"(by the way, in your very definition, their upcoming "stealth rework" isn't a nerf then, thanks)
You wanna know what it feels like to be a TR without ITC? Try go fighting another HR or a CW with using only 2 dodges max, no ranged attacks/only melees, no Fox's Cunning, no Marauder's Escape, and have fun walking up 80' with the two ranged classes spamming every attack they have in their arsenal against you. I mentioned before this is the reason why TRs have no other choice but to rely on long durations of stealth. It's not as if NW TRs have out-of-stealth combat utility powers like other stealthed-classes in other games, no?.
You want to know what its like to be an HR w/o Constricting Arrow? Try fighting ANY other class with no way to disrupt/stop their cc abilities, then laugh at how those dodges don't mean anything when the enemy can gap close and control you. Its not as if HRs have a cc immunity encounter, an auto-crit encounter, Dazing(aoe I might add!)/Stunning, a Daily tailored to keep you in stealth longer, 2 different teleports(depending on your path, and one of which breaks cc), versus a Daily with a 2 second sit still time BEFORE IT EVEN ACTIVATES, like a certain class has now, no?
Besides, why are we having this conversation again? Was this not about HRs and how once they abused bugged powers until they fixed it?.
No, nice try. This was discussion about how people deem the HR dodge to be so OP, despite the obvious weaknesses and strengths it has compared to the other classes, not about it being abused. Should we start a new thread about how a lot of TRs abuse permastealth? Nope. Not falling for that troll either.
Thorn is a scrubby PvE power at best. No real TR complains about it..
This tells me your lack of experience in the matter. This power was whined about more than Fox's Shift. That's okay, I took it off for awhile for the TR crybabies(not TRs as a whole, just the whiners )
That's right. Keep digressing, shifting the blame/arrow to the TRs. Keep pretending this isn't a thread about HRs, please.
That's right. Keep crying for HRs to get hit with nerfs and/or "corrections". When "stealth rework" hits, id just call it karmic justice(sorry for TRs that don't whine like others).
Excluding premade level combatants, 90% of TRs in PvP are non-perma.
This is hilarious, because a past thread already addressed this, and most pvp'ers have already admitted that 90% of the TR population is most likely permastealth. Once again, lack of experience to you.
I hear frickin' idiots go "LOL sissy perma" as they kiss the ground all the time, when evidently my TR build is physically impossible to run as a perma.
I'll be blunt here. Most people who complain about 'permas' couldn't tell the difference even if one of them came from behind and bit them on their buttocks.
And permastealth users are the ones throwing a rotation of shadow strike, gloaming cut(feated), cloud of steel or duelist's flurry, then when their stealth is almost gone, ITC or in rare occasion, Bait and Switch. Once again, lack of experience to you.
And stop frickin' weaseling to try fool people that TRs have 2 ways to break free. Only one is available per path, one of them works fine, the other's a broken heap of crapshi* that recently lost all meaning as any kind of encounter.
And you stop "frickin' weaseling" to try to fool people that HRs are as OP as youre blindly saying. By the way, the other encounter that youre saying was broken was fixed kind of recently(tells me how often you really play pvp). And Constricting Arrow was similarly fixed, so ours doesn't work as well, whereas your cc breaking encounter now works as intended. Nice try again with your bs.
Which is totally irrelevant, as there were plenty of other classes who complained about HR powers that were plain broken. Now they're fixed, so people don't complain. End of story.
Let me fix this for you: "Which is totally relevant, because there were plenty of other classes who complained about TR permastealth, but try to at least adapt to it, whereas TRs want to permanently(hah, pun on permastealth) stay on top of the pvp board, so cry about anything that even approaches the factor of stopping stealth."
Fixed...End of story.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
Hahahahahhaha. No, just no.. My dodges are op against people with horrible connection, and with the Raven Skull/Shard last boon, I can squeeze out like 6-7 dodges almost back to back. But then what? the thing you probably don't know is that out at-will makes us immune and what I started doing lately is chaining dodge/marauder's/at-will/dodge/dodge/at-will, if done correct(probably a bug, hope it isn't) you can stay immune forever then enter stealth at next marauders and dish out some damage. It takes long but I can hold 4 people on me, slowly(or quickly if I'm pugging) killing them with at-wills.
Quickdraw?! I laugh at this. Most of their best abilities(split shot, aimed shot, commanding shot, thorn ward, rain of arrows), require significant telegraphing/activating/aoe placement times, so its obvious YOU don't have a clue what HRs weaknesses are lol.
By the way, as has been stated, Ive played every class in pvp. Nice try with that troll
uhhh, u hunters do have serious quickdraw. i have seen jumping hunters simply kill me and 2 melees because nobody else could reach him but me but i couldn't melee at all due to them being able to fight while running. as for thorn ward, that's just something to remove stealth and won't stop me from doing ranged attacks or attacking in ITC. and rain of arrows.......that small aoe? wow.....i'm not a hunter and i know that isn't practical in pvp
You want to know what its like to be an HR w/o Constricting Arrow? Try fighting ANY other class with no way to disrupt/stop their cc abilities, then laugh at how those dodges don't mean anything when the enemy can gap close and control you. Its not as if HRs have a cc immunity encounter, an auto-crit encounter, Dazing(aoe I might add!)/Stunning, a Daily tailored to keep you in stealth longer, 2 different teleports(depending on your path, and one of which breaks cc), versus a Daily with a 2 second sit still time BEFORE IT EVEN ACTIVATES, like a certain class has now, no?
try hitting a class that is not a cleric/guardian with dazing strike. whoever gets hit by that deserves to die as it is so easy to dodge and even if u did get hit, all u gotta do is run til it wears off as no rogue can melee a moving target. same thing with smoke bomb, just run away til it wears off. also, u hunters have disruptive shot.....the best non-prone cc that can even be spammed. the same hunter hit me with that 3 times in a single fight once and it's not like i can be immune all the time.
And you stop "frickin' weaseling" to try to fool people that HRs are as OP as youre blindly saying. By the way, the other encounter that youre saying was broken was fixed kind of recently(tells me how often you really play pvp). And Constricting Arrow was similarly fixed, so ours doesn't work as well, whereas your cc breaking encounter now works as intended. Nice try again with your bs.
i'm not whisperknife, but i don't doubt kweasa about their pains because ITC is vastly superior to vengeance's pursuit.
There's nothing "lite" about it when the CC break itself is unreliable and the recharge is just as long as ITC. It's more like "warped, broken version of ITC". Not apples to oranges, but apples to hunk of rotting organic matter that once used to be an orange.
...and VPs initially a gap-closer. So you get caught by Entangling Force. You;
(1) ...didn't have VP marked on him, so you can't break out
(2) ...did have VP marked on him. You break out and teleport to the CW ...and then get caught by Ice Ray.
(3) ...got caught by Ice Ray the first time, break out and teleport to the CW ...and then get caught by EF
(4) ...got caught by Ice Ray, you have the mark, but the CW is outside range. So no, VP can't break you free
(5) ...were trying to escape... and VP closes you in right next to the enemy you were running away from
VP before the patch had 0 worth as a CC breaker. It didn't work. However it found another use as a 90 worth gap-closer that aided you immensely in combat. WK builds, especially VP-dependant builds like mine or any variants stemming up from it relied on its mobility to survive as well as deal constant damage by remaining in melee range.
Now, after the patch, it has (on a scale of 0~100) maybe 10 worth as a CC breaker and lost all its implications and functionality, applications as an integral part of the tool. It's a gap-closer that deals less than half the damage of Deft Strike and yet has longer recharge. It's a CC breaker that activates slow, doesn't protect you at all, and has none of the combat applications ITC has, and yet has a recharge as long as ITC(2 secs faster).
I fought a HR in Hotenow. Middle node, he casts that giant red circle over the node so I couldn't stand and cap it. When I tried to fight him off node I could not hit him. Lunging Strike, Bull Charge, nothing, just air, and these are encounters that need to be aimed at a target to activate. He eventually killed me. After the third time of getting trolled by him I decided that he can have mid while I go and fight something I could hit.
I'm still at a loss as to how he was able to dodge everything I done. I'm not the best PVPer, but c'mon, how could I not touch him?
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
I fought a HR in Hotenow. Middle node, he casts that giant red circle over the node so I couldn't stand and cap it. When I tried to fight him off node I could not hit him. Lunging Strike, Bull Charge, nothing, just air, and these are encounters that need to be aimed at a target to activate. He eventually killed me. After the third time of getting trolled by him I decided that he can have mid while I go and fight something I could hit.
I'm still at a loss as to how he was able to dodge everything I done. I'm not the best PVPer, but c'mon, how could I not touch him?
Because you were too predictable, I'd venture my guess. I mean, PuG wise, when you meet a GF 90% of their moves start with Lunge, then comes out the CC, and then a few more, then the blocks to buy time for recharge, and after that set recharge time same rotation at exact same intervals.
Also, Lunge is one of those skills that do not benefit from "instant hit check regardless of actual animation". What I mean by this is that some powers have that instant hit check regardless of power animation -- prime example being Take Down.
When a fighter activates TD, the hit-or-dodged calculation is almost immediate. Animation-wise, the GWF would just be drawing his sword upwards getting ready to strike down with the hilt, but in terms of hit-or-miss you are marked down as already hit -- hence, even if you dodge or block when the hilt is still up, TD simply ignores that and will prone you when it comes down.
Another power like this is Entangling Force CWs use. If you enter dodge while seeing the CW starts to wave his arms then its too late. These powers need to be dodged/blocked before you even see any movement.
Another example is Constricting Arrow from HRs. As a matter of fact these three are one of the fastest activating powers in the game and usually more difficult to dodge/block than others. In comparison, some powers like lunge, or another good example being Dazing Strike from TRs, don't really register a hit unless the power actually connects animation-wise. Either that, or they have slower hit-miss timing.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
uhhh, u hunters do have serious quickdraw. i have seen jumping hunters simply kill me and 2 melees because nobody else could reach him but me but i couldn't melee at all due to them being able to fight while running. as for thorn ward, that's just something to remove stealth and won't stop me from doing ranged attacks or attacking in ITC. and rain of arrows.......that small aoe? wow.....i'm not a hunter and i know that isn't practical in pvp
As far as "jumping hunters", do other classes not jump and spam their abilities too? Seen it from CWs, DCs, even GWFs and GFs! Not saying that they don't have quickdraw. Just hes implying that all we have is quickdraw, when that's not the case. The encounters I stated are simply their powers without quickdraw, to debunk his statement. Plus, if you got hit by aimed shot, you deserved it. Same as Dazing Strike. Just bringing up rain of arrows cuz some HRs did use it. I wouldn't be caught dead with it, but if your aim/timing was that great, go ahead. And as you yourself admitted, TRs also have ranged options as well. As far as TRs, do you really need quickdraw if you are INVISIBLE? damage/activation time doesn't matter as much when you cant be targeted as well as other classes. Anybody who denies that clear advantage, has never played pvp in any other game.
try hitting a class that is not a cleric/guardian with dazing strike. whoever gets hit by that deserves to die as it is so easy to dodge and even if u did get hit, all u gotta do is run til it wears off as no rogue can melee a moving target. same thing with smoke bomb, just run away til it wears off. also, u hunters have disruptive shot.....the best non-prone cc that can even be spammed. the same hunter hit me with that 3 times in a single fight once and it's not like i can be immune all the time..
So your claiming that using melee tactics gives you a disadvantage in ranged/mobile fights. That's the same in every other mmo. Do TRs not also have ranged encounters/at wills? They do.
Disruptive Shot, you mean the DAILY?! yes, its an 8 second cooldown daze, but you seem to forget the point that its a DAILY. HRs have the second worst AP gain time(slightly ahead of TRs in fact), and the scenario you explained implies that he already had the DAILY to use on you in the first place... Moving on.
i'm not whisperknife, but i don't doubt kweasa about their pains because ITC is vastly superior to vengeance's pursuit.
Hence why people don't go whisperknife. I played around with whisperknife myself, and while vengeance's pursuit is also a teleport, it can break cc(yes, that was/is being fixed, please stop whining about it being broken). So, at least you have that option no matter what path you take. When Pathfinder comes out, I don't see many(if any) HRs going Pathfinder, because it already looks like its a path made to even further designate HRs as a support class.
I can count on 2 fingers how many classes have the ability to "break cc", and everybody should know that. Can HRs? no. Can CWs? no. Can DCs? no. Can GFs? no. Every TR says theyre not OP, when theyre 1 of the 2 classes with the greatest bag of tricks in the game(CWs and TRs). Yes, iv sent GWF is another class considered OP in pvp, but they pretty much all adhere to the same rotation of stun locking and unstoppable. TRs(whether permastealth or burst damage) have quite a few "tricks" up their sleeve, hence their name.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
As far as "jumping hunters", do other classes not jump and spam their abilities too? Seen it from CWs, DCs, even GWFs and GFs! Not saying that they don't have quickdraw. Just hes implying that all we have is quickdraw, when that's not the case. The encounters I stated are simply their powers without quickdraw, to debunk his statement. Plus, if you got hit by aimed shot, you deserved it. Same as Dazing Strike. Just bringing up rain of arrows cuz some HRs did use it. I wouldn't be caught dead with it, but if your aim/timing was that great, go ahead. And as you yourself admitted, TRs also have ranged options as well. As far as TRs, do you really need quickdraw if you are INVISIBLE? damage/activation time doesn't matter as much when you cant be targeted as well as other classes. Anybody who denies that clear advantage, has never played pvp in any other game.
i'm no perma, but i don't consider hunters using some of the skills u stated as being good. maybe thorn ward but idk how effective it is since i stay in stealth for less than 1 second usually or i reduce the damage i take from the red-zone.
also, i have never seen any other class jump as much as a hunter and it's probably because few benefit from it as much as hunters do.
So your claiming that using melee tactics gives you a disadvantage in ranged/mobile fights. That's the same in every other mmo. Do TRs not also have ranged encounters/at wills? They do.
our ranged arsenal sucks unless u r a perma running bile and u can not confuse dazing strike as a worthwhile melee. it almost NEVER hits. lashing blade i can work with, dazing.......only doable from stealth reliably (and that does not make it worth slotting), and duelist flurry is worth the effort.
rogue ranged:
Cloud of Steal - 8 charges, not gonna kill anyone unless used with bile or on low hp targets
deft strike - gap closer, not used for damage
impact shot - nerfed and is not that viable anymore. some still use it but mostly for the stun
shadow strike - stealth refill, not used for damage
blitz - nowhere near on-par with actual ranged dps except maybe by very specific builds
and some whisperknife at-will. none of which are on-par with actual ranged dps and do not make up the bulk of our damage. a non-perma is not gonna kill u from ranged attacks alone unless they just execute u.
Disruptive Shot, you mean the DAILY?! yes, its an 8 second cooldown daze, but you seem to forget the point that its a DAILY. HRs have the second worst AP gain time(slightly ahead of TRs in fact), and the scenario you explained implies that he already had the DAILY to use on you in the first place... Moving on.
it's a 25% ap daily and u got like 6 or 8 seconds to recharge that. it's not difficult. lashing blade probably gives me that much by itself >.>
by the way, my cleric fought a hunter 3 times consecutively and every time that hunter used disruptive shot 3-4 times. obviously, the ap gain is not an issue if u can recharge it that quickly while fighting nobody else and no, it was not a 5 min fight
Hence why people don't go whisperknife. I played around with whisperknife myself, and while vengeance's pursuit is also a teleport, it can break cc(yes, that was/is being fixed, please stop whining about it being broken). So, at least you have that option no matter what path you take. When Pathfinder comes out, I don't see many(if any) HRs going Pathfinder, because it already looks like its a path made to even further designate HRs as a support class.
yet u keep trying to make it seem like whisperknife is awesome and that rogues have 2 cc breakers. really just 1 each and one of them sounds like it needs a revamp.
and i heard nothing about another change being applied to it. the last change was actually giving it a cooldown.
I can count on 2 fingers how many classes have the ability to "break cc", and everybody should know that. Can HRs? no. Can CWs? no. Can DCs? no. Can GFs? no. Every TR says theyre not OP, when theyre 1 of the 2 classes with the greatest bag of tricks in the game(CWs and TRs). Yes, iv sent GWF is another class considered OP in pvp, but they pretty much all adhere to the same rotation of stun locking and unstoppable. TRs(whether permastealth or burst damage) have quite a few "tricks" up their sleeve, hence their name.
and we need cc immunity unlike the rest of u. i can understand wizards/hunters wanting protection from each other, but really? gwf's/guardians use prones so a "cc breaker" is of no use against them as the only thing that stops a prone is an immunity used b4 the prone. rogues running stuns r usually the easiest kills among all rogues so u have nothing to fear from them outside of their immunity if it's not a perma. i agree with clerics getting an immunity, but moreso from their daily rather than a spammable one as u r meant to cc them to stop them from supporting.
this game is set-up for melees chasing ranged dps, so ranged dps having an immunity from an encounter is largely unneeded and probably overpowered.
also, i have never seen any other class jump as much as a hunter and it's probably because few benefit from it as much as hunters do.
Theres actually multiple videos on Youtube of CWs jumping and spamming their abilities. Theres even a past thread with someone asking if CW jumping is OP.
our ranged arsenal sucks unless u r a perma running bile and u can not confuse dazing strike as a worthwhile melee. it almost NEVER hits. lashing blade i can work with, dazing.......only doable from stealth reliably (and that does not make it worth slotting), and duelist flurry is worth the effort.
rogue ranged:
Cloud of Steal - 8 charges, not gonna kill anyone unless used with bile or on low hp targets
deft strike - gap closer, not used for damage
impact shot - nerfed and is not that viable anymore. some still use it but mostly for the stun
shadow strike - stealth refill, not used for damage
blitz - nowhere near on-par with actual ranged dps except maybe by very specific builds
and some whisperknife at-will. none of which are on-par with actual ranged dps and do not make up the bulk of our damage. a non-perma is not gonna kill u from ranged attacks alone unless they just execute u.
Yea, and HRs melee capabilities are a joke too. The only melee ability an HR had that was useful was Fox's Shift, and that's getting reduced quite a bit in damage and capability(Some devs said it was previously working as intended, where others said that the complaints are why its getting reduced). TRs strengths are melee, and HRs strengths are ranged. I can basically call all the melee version ranged encounters pathetic.
By the way, I never said dazed strike is worthwhile. You basically use it from stealth, or not at all.
it's a 25% ap daily and u got like 6 or 8 seconds to recharge that. it's not difficult. lashing blade probably gives me that much by itself >.>
by the way, my cleric fought a hunter 3 times consecutively and every time that hunter used disruptive shot 3-4 times. obviously, the ap gain is not an issue if u can recharge it that quickly while fighting nobody else and no, it was not a 5 min fight.
You forget, once again, what I said. HRs have the second worst AP gain(beating TRs slightly, and that's permastealth: non perma, most TRs can build AP faster cuz they have good AP gaining, non stealth using encounters). Which means hes not gaining insane AP while fighting; he most likely had his AP charged BEFORE the fight. A CW specced for AP gain I consider one of the fastest AP gaining classes, followed by GWF or DC recovery specs. My HR has over 2k recovery, and CAN NOT gain AP as fast as youre saying, even fighting training dummies.
yet u keep trying to make it seem like whisperknife is awesome and that rogues have 2 cc breakers. really just 1 each and one of them sounds like it needs a revamp.
and i heard nothing about another change being applied to it. the last change was actually giving it a cooldown.
I never said whisperknife was awesome(did I not just say most people still go infiltrator cuz it has more to offer?) read before you start that <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> again. And VP was not working as intended, and we were told theyre fixing it. Yes, it has cooldown, but it works as intended.
and we need cc immunity unlike the rest of u. i can understand wizards/hunters wanting protection from each other, but really? gwf's/guardians use prones so a "cc breaker" is of no use against them as the only thing that stops a prone is an immunity used b4 the prone. rogues running stuns r usually the easiest kills among all rogues so u have nothing to fear from them outside of their immunity if it's not a perma. i agree with clerics getting an immunity, but moreso from their daily rather than a spammable one as u r meant to cc them to stop them from supporting.
this game is set-up for melees chasing ranged dps, so ranged dps having an immunity from an encounter is largely unneeded and probably overpowered.
And if you want to boast that melees should be able to break cc, and/or have cc immunities, its fine. As I implied before, its fair. But in return, you cant whine about squishy classes having ways to counteract melee dps'ers, or whine cuz the squishy has ability(ies) to put distance between them either. So melee dps having an immunity from EVERYTHING is also unneeded and also probably overpowered. But ITC does just that: it allows you cc immunity(that's fine) but also halves damage(used normally), or completely negates it(used from stealth). Not even the gwf(you know, the one everyone whines about) can say that. They can be killed while in unstoppable: They don't magically negate all damage while in it(although the pvp set is bugged right now to forego healing depression).
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
Because you were too predictable, I'd venture my guess. I mean, PuG wise, when you meet a GF 90% of their moves start with Lunge, then comes out the CC, and then a few more, then the blocks to buy time for recharge, and after that set recharge time same rotation at exact same intervals.
Also, Lunge is one of those skills that do not benefit from "instant hit check regardless of actual animation". What I mean by this is that some powers have that instant hit check regardless of power animation -- prime example being Take Down.
When a fighter activates TD, the hit-or-dodged calculation is almost immediate. Animation-wise, the GWF would just be drawing his sword upwards getting ready to strike down with the hilt, but in terms of hit-or-miss you are marked down as already hit -- hence, even if you dodge or block when the hilt is still up, TD simply ignores that and will prone you when it comes down.
Another power like this is Entangling Force CWs use. If you enter dodge while seeing the CW starts to wave his arms then its too late. These powers need to be dodged/blocked before you even see any movement.
Another example is Constricting Arrow from HRs. As a matter of fact these three are one of the fastest activating powers in the game and usually more difficult to dodge/block than others. In comparison, some powers like lunge, or another good example being Dazing Strike from TRs, don't really register a hit unless the power actually connects animation-wise. Either that, or they have slower hit-miss timing.
Well, yes. If you are on or near the node I ain't running towards you, especially not a ranged class with CC abilities. The sooner I get to you the better, so Lunging is my go to closer. I find HRs and CWs have already ruined my guard if I try and close on them without Lunging and then they themselves move back, so I'm back at square one, out of lunging range but with my guard broken or close to broken. Strategically raising and lowering guard to close faster can help but mistime and you are in trouble.
I just don't understand how he was so invulnerable. I think I proned him twice with Bull Charge but even that was getting fat zeros often.
I've registered hits on CWs that were repelling and freezing me like champions. I was murdered by two CWs but I was able to hit both of them more frequently than the HR. He was just on a whole other level of Ninja I guess.
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
Theres actually multiple videos on Youtube of CWs jumping and spamming their abilities. Theres even a past thread with someone asking if CW jumping is OP.
i may have seen 1 or 2 wizards doing so, but they all gotta stop to cast. their slow animations r part of what i like about fighting wizards instead of hunters.
majority of the jumpers r probably in premades, but for some reason some of the hunters r doing it in pugs more than the others.
You forget, once again, what I said. HRs have the second worst AP gain(beating TRs slightly, and that's permastealth: non perma, most TRs can build AP faster cuz they have good AP gaining, non stealth using encounters). Which means hes not gaining insane AP while fighting; he most likely had his AP charged BEFORE the fight. A CW specced for AP gain I consider one of the fastest AP gaining classes, followed by GWF or DC recovery specs. My HR has over 2k recovery, and CAN NOT gain AP as fast as youre saying, even fighting training dummies.
i guess we r gonna have to agree to disagree there. i know from experience that hunters can recharge it quick enough to spam it. it may not be 8 sec, maybe 10 or 12, but the main thing that i said is 3 times in a single 1 vs 1 fight. i can't multi-task well enough to count while fighting.
I never said whisperknife was awesome(did I not just say most people still go infiltrator cuz it has more to offer?) read before you start that <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> again. And VP was not working as intended, and we were told theyre fixing it. Yes, it has cooldown, but it works as intended.
it might be "working" in a way but it is so not viable. ITC is good because it's a 4 second immunity. a cc-breaker on the same cooldown and no immunity just can't replace that. it would need to be reduced to 25-50% of ITC's cooldown to be viable.
And if you want to boast that melees should be able to break cc, and/or have cc immunities, its fine. As I implied before, its fair. But in return, you cant whine about squishy classes having ways to counteract melee dps'ers, or whine cuz the squishy has ability(ies) to put distance between them either. So melee dps having an immunity from EVERYTHING is also unneeded and also probably overpowered. But ITC does just that: it allows you cc immunity(that's fine) but also halves damage(used normally), or completely negates it(used from stealth). Not even the gwf(you know, the one everyone whines about) can say that. They can be killed while in unstoppable: They don't magically negate all damage while in it(although the pvp is bugged right now to forego healing depression).
i don't care if squishies can teleport, repel, or sit in red-zones because i can deal with it.
try playing a melee non-perma rogue in pve/pvp without ITC. can't melee without it in pve and you can't 1 vs 1 anyone in pvp without it except maybe guardians and clerics. having to approach wizards/hunters and becoming a sitting duck for 50-75% of the fight is nowhere near competitive. both the immunity and the 75% reduction in damage are necessary. the stealth bonus can be changed as i never agreed with it and i don't use it.
majority of gwf's have lost their god-mode i suppose. still, it is not sensible to kill them in unstoppable as that's a huge waste of time even with 3 people. 5 people i can understand, but such tactics require the rest of the team to be dead or pre-occupied. the high-end gwf's r simply not gonna die except to a rogue's daily. such high resists and some of them even boast a higher deflect chance than even rogues and those are probably the only unkillable ones left (excluding shocking execution).
i don't remember where, but i recall someone stating that 50-60% deflect chance is possible for a gwf
i may have seen 1 or 2 wizards doing so, but they all gotta stop to cast. their slow animations r part of what i like about fighting wizards instead of hunters.
majority of the jumpers r probably in premades, but for some reason some of the hunters r doing it in pugs more than the others.
i guess we r gonna have to agree to disagree there. i know from experience that hunters can recharge it quick enough to spam it. it may not be 8 sec, maybe 10 or 12, but the main thing that i said is 3 times in a single 1 vs 1 fight. i can't multi-task well enough to count while fighting.
it might be "working" in a way but it is so not viable. ITC is good because it's a 4 second immunity. a cc-breaker on the same cooldown and no immunity just can't replace that. it would need to be reduced to 25-50% of ITC's cooldown to be viable.
i don't care if squishies can teleport, repel, or sit in red-zones because i can deal with it.
try playing a melee non-perma rogue in pve/pvp without ITC. can't melee without it in pve and you can't 1 vs 1 anyone in pvp without it except maybe guardians and clerics. having to approach wizards/hunters and becoming a sitting duck for 50-75% of the fight is nowhere near competitive. both the immunity and the 75% reduction in damage are necessary. the stealth bonus can be changed as i never agreed with it and i don't use it.
majority of gwf's have lost their god-mode i suppose. still, it is not sensible to kill them in unstoppable as that's a huge waste of time even with 3 people. 5 people i can understand, but such tactics require the rest of the team to be dead or pre-occupied. the high-end gwf's r simply not gonna die except to a rogue's daily. such high resists and some of them even boast a higher deflect chance than even rogues and those are probably the only unkillable ones left (excluding shocking execution).
i don't remember where, but i recall someone stating that 50-60% deflect chance is possible for a gwf
I don't use the jump tactic, so I'm understanding, but not about that. And you say you've seen HRs spam disruptive shot, but I can't. But I've also seen TRs go into stealth while taking damage(previously knocked out of stealth). Which I know shouldn't be happening either.
To put it bluntly, all I was responding to was the OPer, and kweassa crying about HR dodges. If melees have gap closers and cc immunities, it's only fair for ranged classes to have distance making moves. It's the basis for pvp battles between ranged and melee classes. That's all I originally intended to address, before it got all messed up like this. Keep ITC, deft strike, stealth, but don't complain if there's a ranged class with abilities meant as opposites to those.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
HR when played right is actually more OP than perma-rogue by a long-shot, it's just perma is more annoying because you can't see them, so you're more likely to complain or see them as OP.
But an HR is just as hard to kill and will kill you much faster than a perma.
My Harem: Dawn HR, Erin CW, Piper TR, Zoe GWF
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dragoness10Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 780Arc User
edited April 2014
TR vs HR - fair enough match.
Dazing Strike, whack whack whack, dodge, Stealth, Cloud of Steel, run... Sometimes I die, and then sometimes they do.
" I tried to figure out the enigma that was you, and then I realized mastering Wild Magic was easier." - Old Wizard in Waterdeep
"Why is it dragons only use ketchup? I'd like a little wasabi please. Us silvers like a variety of condiments."
"Don't call them foolish mortals. One, they don't learn from it. Two, It just ticks them off." - An Ancient Red Dragon
I read a lot of this, and I agree the HR's are the new GWF as they kill 90% of them. You guys need to realize that they made this class late in the game, gave it abilities that made a lot of people want to play it, and knew that we'd dump a ton of money in to get this class geared out. It is really that simple. I think the rock paper scissors analogies are cute. But I have a few HR's in my guilds that have little to no problem with any enemy team TR or GWF whatsoever, just pop the AOE on the point, and jump and dodge and kill literally everyone lol.
I mean it's great, but when you are on the other team, it's not so great. I've played a GF since the 2nd week this game came out, and we've gotten nothing but nerfed, and now it is to the point to where a GWF can literally have a higher stat in every single category lol but hey, that's part of a pay to win game.
- Yes, HR's need re balanced. The fact they can easily take most of the best TR's if not all, yes I've seen Chocolate, Enemy, EOA, all the other branches of guilds that break off and call themselves awesome's BEST TR or one of the best, get champed on by an HR, and the GWF's are even worse off! Don't even get me started about Guardians and how worthless that class has became in PVP unless you REALLY know what you are doing.
- Yes, TR's stealth has always been a little much. But it wasn't as noticed until Cryptic nerfed every single other ability and then shoved stealth down their throat with this GG gear, Tenacity whatever ridiculous idea. So now they all do the same thing, same rotation, some say I USE A TOTALLY DIFFERENT ENCOUNTER, and claim to be different. It's whatever, soulforge and bile 99.9% - you guys do the same stuff, some are just better than others at it. HR's are pretty much the same, so are GWF's. So we can ***** as much as we want, but maybe nerfing a class isn't the best option and some of the others need boosted back to where they were? CW's blow now, sure there are a handful of good ones, Sobek of course is easily the best at getting away. But the majority of you get smashed on a regular basis. It's ok, we've all seen it, and we still all love you. Clerics, their healing is still pretty good, but should a f'n healer be able to debuff someone with the highest DPS and just stand and dodge and spam jump or use their macro and stalemate for the entire match? That is silly! Give them more healing, nerf their defense, they shouldn't be able to wear that much damage, they are a healer, a HEALER, not f'n the Hulk. Guardians, give us some freaking defense, our block sucks even with the increase, our movement still sucks pretty bad. Even with 6-9k power, perfect vorpal, our damage really isn't that great, our defense isn't close to a GWF's, our HP is always lower than a GWF if the GWF isn't <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. You took our knock back and prones down to ****, so it's about 100x harder to hold a point at all, let alone survive against a GWF who again, isn't <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. Granted, GF's can kill most rogues because most rogues are stupid, but the ones that aren't stupid are again - hard to kill, and you send the HR to spank them.
So the moral is stop complaining. If you want it fixed, play a game that you pay to play and it probably will. They have stuff the way it is so we pay money, they change it when they have something else coming that will cause us to spend money. We don't need nerfs. We need improvements on classes that were nerfed, to equal the classes that are dominating people. HR, TR, GWF. Granted, the good HR's have a lot of freaking skill. The good GWF's hit 3 buttons, and can use their foreheads and be 95% as effective. TR's your timing has to be good, but it's really not THAT hard. So stop looking at those 3 classes, and look at the others and what you could do to bring them onto the level of the top 3... Thank you!
Dazing Strike, whack whack whack, dodge, Stealth, Cloud of Steel, run... Sometimes I die, and then sometimes they do.
You should be able to kill rogues most of the time as long as they don't have SE up. Just walk around spamming fox shift and you'll eventually hit him with it and take half his health.
Comments
I don't think ALL abilities get a 40% buff, but quite a few get a significant buff. HR has a ton of powers that are useless and a few that are really really good. The trick is knowing which to put points in, slot, and use, and when to slot and use them. Splitshot and foxshift are default must haves. Easily called crutches. I think the point to the nerf/balancing is to make the class more well rounded.
Jugger Conq GF
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Thornward and that invisibility goes right away. I don't think HRs are OP compared to TRs but they are an anti-tr like no other class. Relative to the other classes they are where they should be, even post nerf. The anti-HR? Not sure there is such a class. All classes have good weapons vs them, there is just not that one class that "has their number", and I think this is what upsets people.
The class is simply elegant. Can't say they cannot facetank a gwf. They can. But is is a facetank-dodge-ranged-facetank type constant shifting and knowing exactly what to do and when. Constant shifting means more stamina (endless dodges), more action point generation (dailies that are more like encounter powers), more damage (aspect of the serpent), lowered cd's, and basically twice the number of encounter slots of most of the other classes. Yet somehow it is balanced, especially after the upcoming nerfs which really are not that bad; split shot is taking a big hit, and fox shift will be less of a HR;s version of "bloodbath" on encounter, but fox shift will also be upgraded to prevent the hr from taking damage or being subject to control effects while the animation is playing. Fox shift as a closer to clear a node after raining ranged hell on it for a few seconds is often disrupted by cc or death while in the animation. Nice to know that while this will still be a good closer in terms of damage it will not be "bloodbath jr" anymore.
Jugger Conq GF
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Can TRs still solo epic dungeons? Don't even start to "welcome to the TR's world" with me as long as TRs can still solo epic dungeons.
Maybe. But HR was originally a foil for a few classes. They could root GFs and GWFs, even in unstoppable(which was whined about, now roots aren't as effective). TRs complained that HRs could knock them out of stealth(other classes could too, but people forget that GWFs are the true counter to permastealth). If theres any class that had their number, it was CWs. If the CW started with Entangling Force, the ranger was fish food. Constricting Arrow was a ranger's only defense to a CW(and that was whined about, see a pattern here?). Not saying I do or don't like PVP how it is... Just saying that a lot of TRs are complaining, when theyre one of the 2 classes sitting on top of the PVP spectrum.
It was confirmed from the very earliest days that it was a BUG. In a game where CC is paramount in its importance as a game-making tool the HR CCd everyone and everything in its spot, a ranged-attacker class that ignores even immunities and roots for more than 5~6 seconds, as well as another stun that seriously hinders power activation and timing for 6 seconds.
Whine about it? Hell, yeah.
Naw. TR's complained that the HRs could use that melee skill repeatedly and endlessly until it hit something. There's a difference, and a big one. Any AoE power could hit and shorten the duration of stealth, sometimes ruining the power rotation. But nobody gets to just go *shoom shoom shoom shoom shoom shoom shoom shoom shoom* indefinately at that speed of repetition until it auto-tracks and hits something in stealth.
Oh, btw, the GWFs are not a counter to permas. There is no direct counter to permas except the PoB TR builds. The GWFs simply aren't bothered by permas.
They've got a good reason to complain. TRs don't mind a nerf to stealth IF they are given some alternative way of combat that wasn't so heavily dependant on stealth. What do you think happens to a TR that is out of stealth gets jumped by a HR or a CW?
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I wouldn't say HRs cc'ed everyone and everything... Do you see CN being run by 5 HRs? Nope... as far as pve, it was all about "how many CWs could be brought to the table, or a permastealth running through dungeons alone". And people obviously don't understand about Constricting Arrow: it does a 1 second stun 3 times in a 6 second time. It DOES NOT stun for the whole 6 seconds. That's as situational as TR's smoke bomb: people can simply walk out of your aoe, but they'll also be dazed for a similar amount of time. Is that fair that that isn't touched upon, whereas a 1 second stun is nerfed?
The HRs cc immunity comes from a DAILY. Not an encounter, whereas TRs have at least 2 ways(depending on paragon path) to "break cc". Do rangers? nope. Do clerics? nope. Do guardian fighters? nope. Do wizards even? nope. GWFs and TRs are the only 2 classes that can do that.
Im talking about thorn ward. I heard sooo many TRs whine about that ability since they came out(HR). That a class can throw an aoe with the purpose of making sure a permastealth cant stay on a node was originally a bigger complaint I heard than Fox's Shift.
Correction" Yes, gwf's aren't a counter to permas. Thanks for clearing that, but... other classes cant tank a TR running Bilethorn, Tenebrous, pinging them while invisible. That's an obvious advantage, is all.
The problem is, so much is being nerfed for them, that 90% of the TR population went permastealth. I understand this. But is it not fair for any other squishy to get targeted by CW cc? The HRs pros get thrown out the door if a CW hits their cc first... they might as well wait to respawn. Shoot, DCs have no interrupts other than a daily to stop a CW from casting. TRs have at least 2 ways to break out of cc, gwf being the only other class that can do that.
Relax man. Im not disagreeing with your point of view. Im just saying that I have heard TRs complain a lot, which is fair, but they get mighty defensive when their own tactics are called out too. Its hypocrisy. You cant say "oh, this ability/setup is OP versus me, it should be nerfed", then when youre using an annoying tactic, such as permastealth, you cant say "oh, its not OP, it shouldn't be dealt with".
As annoying as permastealth is, go right ahead and use it. I just don't like TRs who use it, then cry for a nerf bat to another class.
A "TR" can't solo epic dungeons. Only specific build can solo epic dungeons, so get your facts straight, and please don't generalise. As shocking as it may be, not every TR is a perma. And what about permas soloing dungeons? I say let them. I belive we both can make 2 or 3 guild runs, sell the drop, split the ADs and forget the whole thing, while perma TR will still be throwing toothpicks at last boss on his first run.
Now, to elaborate on something you totally missed here. I play TR as a main since 3rd day of open beta. I don't play perma. I dont like permas, i find them boring. I don't do top tier pvp and can't solo epic dungeons. Yet, I always get nerfed in the name of so called "PVP balance". And I hate it as much as you would hate to see HR's dodge nerfed.
Back on topic. Yes, HRs dodge is OP. I can slot dazing, lashing and impact. Still, HR will dodge all five. Tough luck, life isn't fair. But please, stop messing up others pve just because you had a few bad pvp matches.
My facts are quite straight, I am fully aware that it requires a permastealth build. A perma TR is still a TR and they can still do something no other class can do. There's no room for TRs to cry as long as perma allows them to solo like that. Is my statement calling for it to be nerfed or removed? Definitely not. It's just that "welcome to TR's world" is a ridiculous thing to say.
Except that when TRs get nerfed, they have permastealth to migrate to. I don't agree that permastealth should exist, but I can accept that most TRs don't feel they have any other options. People wanting to reduce HRs to only have two or three dodges like a CW without increasing the dodge distance to match a CW's is just vindictive and small-minded.
I wonder how many people who are crying for constant HR nerfs in PvP actually have HRs. Or is it just that since they're not a heavy armor class people feel entitled to perma-root and oneshot them?
So, you are allowed to feel bad about even mentioning a nerf. I am not allowed to feel bad about nerfs that already happened, and those bound to happen, just because there are some permas out there that can solo epic dungeons. You could at least make up an excuse that makes more sense. Like everyones favorite pvp. Oh well..
And in case you didn't notice, Im against your dodge nerf. In fact, Im against nerfing any class based solely on pvp. Be that HR, TR or any other class. Except permas and IV sents. But these are specs, not classes. And both will get nerfed.
Peace bro.
Now, if PvP balance should affect PvE - well that's another argument I think, and I personally don't give a toss. I think HR's are pretty average in PvE along with the other classes. So yeah, I wish there was a way to fix this without diminishing the game for the people who aren't avid PvP players.
I agree TR's have nothing to complain about in pvp. I HATE slotting thornward and instead like to have marauders, fox, and constricting, but some TR's almost require thornward. CW should still get 3 interupts from constricting. I like to fire off disruptive followed by constricting then marauders rush, fox shift and steel breeze- they are usually dead by then and its a nice marauders escape + split shot for the red team members that came in to help the cw. What kills me (literally) is when two CWs get the jump on me and chain-cc me to death. Hello elven battle enchant.
Jugger Conq GF
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I couldn't care less about PvE because you don't hear mobs complaining about balance. So stop dragging in irrelevant garbage to the discussion and concentrate at the topic at hand.
1. You obviously don't have a clue as to just how disrupting and dangerous CA is. Try any class that actually has some major skills that require actual activation time, unlike the pew-pew quickdraw HRs with all major skills being instant activation.
2. Your powers were never "nerfed". It was corrected. Get your facts straight. Which part of IT WAS IGNORING IMMUNITIES" do you not understand?
You wanna know what it feels like to be a TR without ITC? Try go fighting another HR or a CW with using only 2 dodges max, no ranged attacks/only melees, no Fox's Cunning, no Marauder's Escape, and have fun walking up 80' with the two ranged classes spamming every attack they have in their arsenal against you. I mentioned before this is the reason why TRs have no other choice but to rely on long durations of stealth. It's not as if NW TRs have out-of-stealth combat utility powers like other stealthed-classes in other games, no?
Besides, why are we having this conversation again? Was this not about HRs and how once they abused bugged powers until they fixed it?
Thorn is a scrubby PvE power at best. No real TR complains about it.
That's right. Keep digressing, shifting the blame/arrow to the TRs. Keep pretending this isn't a thread about HRs, please.
Excluding premade level combatants, 90% of TRs in PvP are non-perma.
I hear frickin' idiots go "LOL sissy perma" as they kiss the ground all the time, when evidently my TR build is physically impossible to run as a perma.
I'll be blunt here. Most people who complain about 'permas' couldn't tell the difference even if one of them came from behind and bit them on their buttocks.
And stop frickin' weaseling to try fool people that TRs have 2 ways to break free. Only one is available per path, one of them works fine, the other's a broken heap of crapshi* that recently lost all meaning as any kind of encounter.
So which TR in this thread ever mentioned that? Nice strawman there.
Which is totally irrelevant, as there were plenty of other classes who complained about HR powers that were plain broken. Now they're fixed, so people don't complain. End of story.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Nice try! people were talking about both pve and pvp in general, not the poster's fault that youre focusing on pve. You want to discuss about it in pvp, go search "waaaah, HR is OP in pvp". Im sure theres plenty of them there. Otherwise, don't try to troll in a GENERAL(not pvp or pve specific) discussion about them.
Quickdraw?! I laugh at this. Most of their best abilities(split shot, aimed shot, commanding shot, thorn ward, rain of arrows), require significant telegraphing/activating/aoe placement times, so its obvious YOU don't have a clue what HRs weaknesses are lol.
By the way, as has been stated, Ive played every class in pvp. Nice try with that troll
Correction or nerf its all the same anymore. If people "corrected" how permastealth works(as the devs even said it wasn't how they wanted it), you would all be whining that it was "nerfed"(by the way, in your very definition, their upcoming "stealth rework" isn't a nerf then, thanks)
You want to know what its like to be an HR w/o Constricting Arrow? Try fighting ANY other class with no way to disrupt/stop their cc abilities, then laugh at how those dodges don't mean anything when the enemy can gap close and control you. Its not as if HRs have a cc immunity encounter, an auto-crit encounter, Dazing(aoe I might add!)/Stunning, a Daily tailored to keep you in stealth longer, 2 different teleports(depending on your path, and one of which breaks cc), versus a Daily with a 2 second sit still time BEFORE IT EVEN ACTIVATES, like a certain class has now, no?
No, nice try. This was discussion about how people deem the HR dodge to be so OP, despite the obvious weaknesses and strengths it has compared to the other classes, not about it being abused. Should we start a new thread about how a lot of TRs abuse permastealth? Nope. Not falling for that troll either.
This tells me your lack of experience in the matter. This power was whined about more than Fox's Shift. That's okay, I took it off for awhile for the TR crybabies(not TRs as a whole, just the whiners
That's right. Keep crying for HRs to get hit with nerfs and/or "corrections". When "stealth rework" hits, id just call it karmic justice(sorry for TRs that don't whine like others).
This is hilarious, because a past thread already addressed this, and most pvp'ers have already admitted that 90% of the TR population is most likely permastealth. Once again, lack of experience to you.
And permastealth users are the ones throwing a rotation of shadow strike, gloaming cut(feated), cloud of steel or duelist's flurry, then when their stealth is almost gone, ITC or in rare occasion, Bait and Switch. Once again, lack of experience to you.
And you stop "frickin' weaseling" to try to fool people that HRs are as OP as youre blindly saying. By the way, the other encounter that youre saying was broken was fixed kind of recently(tells me how often you really play pvp). And Constricting Arrow was similarly fixed, so ours doesn't work as well, whereas your cc breaking encounter now works as intended. Nice try again with your bs.
Several TRs have posted that HRs should be nerfed, then get defensive when their OPness got called. Read please before you blindly throw insults.
Let me fix this for you: "Which is totally relevant, because there were plenty of other classes who complained about TR permastealth, but try to at least adapt to it, whereas TRs want to permanently(hah, pun on permastealth) stay on top of the pvp board, so cry about anything that even approaches the factor of stopping stealth."
Fixed...End of story.
try hitting a class that is not a cleric/guardian with dazing strike. whoever gets hit by that deserves to die as it is so easy to dodge and even if u did get hit, all u gotta do is run til it wears off as no rogue can melee a moving target. same thing with smoke bomb, just run away til it wears off. also, u hunters have disruptive shot.....the best non-prone cc that can even be spammed. the same hunter hit me with that 3 times in a single fight once and it's not like i can be immune all the time.
i'm not whisperknife, but i don't doubt kweasa about their pains because ITC is vastly superior to vengeance's pursuit.
I'm still at a loss as to how he was able to dodge everything I done. I'm not the best PVPer, but c'mon, how could I not touch him?
Because you were too predictable, I'd venture my guess. I mean, PuG wise, when you meet a GF 90% of their moves start with Lunge, then comes out the CC, and then a few more, then the blocks to buy time for recharge, and after that set recharge time same rotation at exact same intervals.
Also, Lunge is one of those skills that do not benefit from "instant hit check regardless of actual animation". What I mean by this is that some powers have that instant hit check regardless of power animation -- prime example being Take Down.
When a fighter activates TD, the hit-or-dodged calculation is almost immediate. Animation-wise, the GWF would just be drawing his sword upwards getting ready to strike down with the hilt, but in terms of hit-or-miss you are marked down as already hit -- hence, even if you dodge or block when the hilt is still up, TD simply ignores that and will prone you when it comes down.
Another power like this is Entangling Force CWs use. If you enter dodge while seeing the CW starts to wave his arms then its too late. These powers need to be dodged/blocked before you even see any movement.
Another example is Constricting Arrow from HRs. As a matter of fact these three are one of the fastest activating powers in the game and usually more difficult to dodge/block than others. In comparison, some powers like lunge, or another good example being Dazing Strike from TRs, don't really register a hit unless the power actually connects animation-wise. Either that, or they have slower hit-miss timing.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
As far as "jumping hunters", do other classes not jump and spam their abilities too? Seen it from CWs, DCs, even GWFs and GFs! Not saying that they don't have quickdraw. Just hes implying that all we have is quickdraw, when that's not the case. The encounters I stated are simply their powers without quickdraw, to debunk his statement. Plus, if you got hit by aimed shot, you deserved it. Same as Dazing Strike. Just bringing up rain of arrows cuz some HRs did use it. I wouldn't be caught dead with it, but if your aim/timing was that great, go ahead. And as you yourself admitted, TRs also have ranged options as well. As far as TRs, do you really need quickdraw if you are INVISIBLE? damage/activation time doesn't matter as much when you cant be targeted as well as other classes. Anybody who denies that clear advantage, has never played pvp in any other game.
So your claiming that using melee tactics gives you a disadvantage in ranged/mobile fights. That's the same in every other mmo. Do TRs not also have ranged encounters/at wills? They do.
Disruptive Shot, you mean the DAILY?! yes, its an 8 second cooldown daze, but you seem to forget the point that its a DAILY. HRs have the second worst AP gain time(slightly ahead of TRs in fact), and the scenario you explained implies that he already had the DAILY to use on you in the first place... Moving on.
Hence why people don't go whisperknife. I played around with whisperknife myself, and while vengeance's pursuit is also a teleport, it can break cc(yes, that was/is being fixed, please stop whining about it being broken). So, at least you have that option no matter what path you take. When Pathfinder comes out, I don't see many(if any) HRs going Pathfinder, because it already looks like its a path made to even further designate HRs as a support class.
I can count on 2 fingers how many classes have the ability to "break cc", and everybody should know that. Can HRs? no. Can CWs? no. Can DCs? no. Can GFs? no. Every TR says theyre not OP, when theyre 1 of the 2 classes with the greatest bag of tricks in the game(CWs and TRs). Yes, iv sent GWF is another class considered OP in pvp, but they pretty much all adhere to the same rotation of stun locking and unstoppable. TRs(whether permastealth or burst damage) have quite a few "tricks" up their sleeve, hence their name.
also, i have never seen any other class jump as much as a hunter and it's probably because few benefit from it as much as hunters do.
our ranged arsenal sucks unless u r a perma running bile and u can not confuse dazing strike as a worthwhile melee. it almost NEVER hits. lashing blade i can work with, dazing.......only doable from stealth reliably (and that does not make it worth slotting), and duelist flurry is worth the effort.
rogue ranged:
Cloud of Steal - 8 charges, not gonna kill anyone unless used with bile or on low hp targets
deft strike - gap closer, not used for damage
impact shot - nerfed and is not that viable anymore. some still use it but mostly for the stun
shadow strike - stealth refill, not used for damage
blitz - nowhere near on-par with actual ranged dps except maybe by very specific builds
and some whisperknife at-will. none of which are on-par with actual ranged dps and do not make up the bulk of our damage. a non-perma is not gonna kill u from ranged attacks alone unless they just execute u.
it's a 25% ap daily and u got like 6 or 8 seconds to recharge that. it's not difficult. lashing blade probably gives me that much by itself >.>
by the way, my cleric fought a hunter 3 times consecutively and every time that hunter used disruptive shot 3-4 times. obviously, the ap gain is not an issue if u can recharge it that quickly while fighting nobody else and no, it was not a 5 min fight
yet u keep trying to make it seem like whisperknife is awesome and that rogues have 2 cc breakers. really just 1 each and one of them sounds like it needs a revamp.
and i heard nothing about another change being applied to it. the last change was actually giving it a cooldown.
and we need cc immunity unlike the rest of u. i can understand wizards/hunters wanting protection from each other, but really? gwf's/guardians use prones so a "cc breaker" is of no use against them as the only thing that stops a prone is an immunity used b4 the prone. rogues running stuns r usually the easiest kills among all rogues so u have nothing to fear from them outside of their immunity if it's not a perma. i agree with clerics getting an immunity, but moreso from their daily rather than a spammable one as u r meant to cc them to stop them from supporting.
this game is set-up for melees chasing ranged dps, so ranged dps having an immunity from an encounter is largely unneeded and probably overpowered.
Theres actually multiple videos on Youtube of CWs jumping and spamming their abilities. Theres even a past thread with someone asking if CW jumping is OP.
Yea, and HRs melee capabilities are a joke too. The only melee ability an HR had that was useful was Fox's Shift, and that's getting reduced quite a bit in damage and capability(Some devs said it was previously working as intended, where others said that the complaints are why its getting reduced). TRs strengths are melee, and HRs strengths are ranged. I can basically call all the melee version ranged encounters pathetic.
By the way, I never said dazed strike is worthwhile. You basically use it from stealth, or not at all.
You forget, once again, what I said. HRs have the second worst AP gain(beating TRs slightly, and that's permastealth: non perma, most TRs can build AP faster cuz they have good AP gaining, non stealth using encounters). Which means hes not gaining insane AP while fighting; he most likely had his AP charged BEFORE the fight. A CW specced for AP gain I consider one of the fastest AP gaining classes, followed by GWF or DC recovery specs. My HR has over 2k recovery, and CAN NOT gain AP as fast as youre saying, even fighting training dummies.
I never said whisperknife was awesome(did I not just say most people still go infiltrator cuz it has more to offer?) read before you start that <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> again. And VP was not working as intended, and we were told theyre fixing it. Yes, it has cooldown, but it works as intended.
And if you want to boast that melees should be able to break cc, and/or have cc immunities, its fine. As I implied before, its fair. But in return, you cant whine about squishy classes having ways to counteract melee dps'ers, or whine cuz the squishy has ability(ies) to put distance between them either. So melee dps having an immunity from EVERYTHING is also unneeded and also probably overpowered. But ITC does just that: it allows you cc immunity(that's fine) but also halves damage(used normally), or completely negates it(used from stealth). Not even the gwf(you know, the one everyone whines about) can say that. They can be killed while in unstoppable: They don't magically negate all damage while in it(although the pvp set is bugged right now to forego healing depression).
Well, yes. If you are on or near the node I ain't running towards you, especially not a ranged class with CC abilities. The sooner I get to you the better, so Lunging is my go to closer. I find HRs and CWs have already ruined my guard if I try and close on them without Lunging and then they themselves move back, so I'm back at square one, out of lunging range but with my guard broken or close to broken. Strategically raising and lowering guard to close faster can help but mistime and you are in trouble.
I just don't understand how he was so invulnerable. I think I proned him twice with Bull Charge but even that was getting fat zeros often.
I've registered hits on CWs that were repelling and freezing me like champions. I was murdered by two CWs but I was able to hit both of them more frequently than the HR. He was just on a whole other level of Ninja I guess.
majority of the jumpers r probably in premades, but for some reason some of the hunters r doing it in pugs more than the others.
i guess we r gonna have to agree to disagree there. i know from experience that hunters can recharge it quick enough to spam it. it may not be 8 sec, maybe 10 or 12, but the main thing that i said is 3 times in a single 1 vs 1 fight. i can't multi-task well enough to count while fighting.
it might be "working" in a way but it is so not viable. ITC is good because it's a 4 second immunity. a cc-breaker on the same cooldown and no immunity just can't replace that. it would need to be reduced to 25-50% of ITC's cooldown to be viable.
i don't care if squishies can teleport, repel, or sit in red-zones because i can deal with it.
try playing a melee non-perma rogue in pve/pvp without ITC. can't melee without it in pve and you can't 1 vs 1 anyone in pvp without it except maybe guardians and clerics. having to approach wizards/hunters and becoming a sitting duck for 50-75% of the fight is nowhere near competitive. both the immunity and the 75% reduction in damage are necessary. the stealth bonus can be changed as i never agreed with it and i don't use it.
majority of gwf's have lost their god-mode i suppose. still, it is not sensible to kill them in unstoppable as that's a huge waste of time even with 3 people. 5 people i can understand, but such tactics require the rest of the team to be dead or pre-occupied. the high-end gwf's r simply not gonna die except to a rogue's daily. such high resists and some of them even boast a higher deflect chance than even rogues and those are probably the only unkillable ones left (excluding shocking execution).
i don't remember where, but i recall someone stating that 50-60% deflect chance is possible for a gwf
I don't use the jump tactic, so I'm understanding, but not about that. And you say you've seen HRs spam disruptive shot, but I can't. But I've also seen TRs go into stealth while taking damage(previously knocked out of stealth). Which I know shouldn't be happening either.
To put it bluntly, all I was responding to was the OPer, and kweassa crying about HR dodges. If melees have gap closers and cc immunities, it's only fair for ranged classes to have distance making moves. It's the basis for pvp battles between ranged and melee classes. That's all I originally intended to address, before it got all messed up like this. Keep ITC, deft strike, stealth, but don't complain if there's a ranged class with abilities meant as opposites to those.
But an HR is just as hard to kill and will kill you much faster than a perma.
Dazing Strike, whack whack whack, dodge, Stealth, Cloud of Steel, run... Sometimes I die, and then sometimes they do.
"Why is it dragons only use ketchup? I'd like a little wasabi please. Us silvers like a variety of condiments."
"Don't call them foolish mortals. One, they don't learn from it. Two, It just ticks them off." - An Ancient Red Dragon
I mean it's great, but when you are on the other team, it's not so great. I've played a GF since the 2nd week this game came out, and we've gotten nothing but nerfed, and now it is to the point to where a GWF can literally have a higher stat in every single category lol but hey, that's part of a pay to win game.
- Yes, HR's need re balanced. The fact they can easily take most of the best TR's if not all, yes I've seen Chocolate, Enemy, EOA, all the other branches of guilds that break off and call themselves awesome's BEST TR or one of the best, get champed on by an HR, and the GWF's are even worse off! Don't even get me started about Guardians and how worthless that class has became in PVP unless you REALLY know what you are doing.
- Yes, TR's stealth has always been a little much. But it wasn't as noticed until Cryptic nerfed every single other ability and then shoved stealth down their throat with this GG gear, Tenacity whatever ridiculous idea. So now they all do the same thing, same rotation, some say I USE A TOTALLY DIFFERENT ENCOUNTER, and claim to be different. It's whatever, soulforge and bile 99.9% - you guys do the same stuff, some are just better than others at it. HR's are pretty much the same, so are GWF's. So we can ***** as much as we want, but maybe nerfing a class isn't the best option and some of the others need boosted back to where they were? CW's blow now, sure there are a handful of good ones, Sobek of course is easily the best at getting away. But the majority of you get smashed on a regular basis. It's ok, we've all seen it, and we still all love you. Clerics, their healing is still pretty good, but should a f'n healer be able to debuff someone with the highest DPS and just stand and dodge and spam jump or use their macro and stalemate for the entire match? That is silly! Give them more healing, nerf their defense, they shouldn't be able to wear that much damage, they are a healer, a HEALER, not f'n the Hulk. Guardians, give us some freaking defense, our block sucks even with the increase, our movement still sucks pretty bad. Even with 6-9k power, perfect vorpal, our damage really isn't that great, our defense isn't close to a GWF's, our HP is always lower than a GWF if the GWF isn't <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. You took our knock back and prones down to ****, so it's about 100x harder to hold a point at all, let alone survive against a GWF who again, isn't <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. Granted, GF's can kill most rogues because most rogues are stupid, but the ones that aren't stupid are again - hard to kill, and you send the HR to spank them.
So the moral is stop complaining. If you want it fixed, play a game that you pay to play and it probably will. They have stuff the way it is so we pay money, they change it when they have something else coming that will cause us to spend money. We don't need nerfs. We need improvements on classes that were nerfed, to equal the classes that are dominating people. HR, TR, GWF. Granted, the good HR's have a lot of freaking skill. The good GWF's hit 3 buttons, and can use their foreheads and be 95% as effective. TR's your timing has to be good, but it's really not THAT hard. So stop looking at those 3 classes, and look at the others and what you could do to bring them onto the level of the top 3... Thank you!
You should be able to kill rogues most of the time as long as they don't have SE up. Just walk around spamming fox shift and you'll eventually hit him with it and take half his health.