[...]
Not much difference in overall clear time. Thats why I said that, HV looks good on paper, but does not overshoot it due to the reality of the mass mob situations on the ground and how much time you have to actually cast.
Care to elaborate on that, please? Honestly, I just started playing NWO 2 weeks back. Also I do not have tested a couple of sets myself. But still, do us all a favor and explain how did you test out the clear time and what did you do with the target limit?
...snip...
Thank you again, for proofing that you have no clue. Or do you actually engage only trash groups with 5 MOBs in it? If later is true: you're right. But sorry, we tend to engage trash group with more than 20 MOBs in it if possible, and because of the target limit of Steal Time and Shard of the Endless Avalanche, one CW is not able to debuff all MOBs.
Check again, that steal time debuff is going on all the mobs. It only damages and stuns 5 mobs but it hits more. Same with icy rays, it's technically uncapped but only hits 2 for damage. One of the easiest ways to see this is when using an enchantment like PF, go to a custom foundry with 100 mobs in the same spot and use one of these, then check ACT or your in game log and look at all the pretty numbers. You can also clearly see the debuff from HV on all the mobs. It's the same way that IBS works for GWF, damages a few but is technically an uncapped ability for boons, weapon enchants, class features (steel blitz,) and of course deep gash.
Also pro tip, with archmage steal time reduces cooldowns on control spells by 1 second every tick of steal time. You can let 5 slow ticks go off, get your stacks of HV on everything, shift to cancel steal time, get a 3-4 second recast time for steal time and keep the mobs debuffed forever. This used to be the easiest way to keep HV stacks on a boss solo when they were stacking improperly.
For Best DPS I would still say HV set is the way to go. SW looked really good at first until I saw it was just 18% crit severity vs 18% overall damage which a player may not notice since it's adding on to the base 75%. This is even more apparent when a vorpal enchantment is slotted in giving anywhere from 12-50% crit severity beforehand. Factor in that I have to crit to get the bonus (EotS is godly!!), and the bonus looks even less appealing for a primary gear set.
HV, on the other hand, looks really good. The set bonus is very easy to obtain depending on encounters rotation. SoEA and IT work great for this gear set since their targets are non-capped (both for damaging and debuffing purposes). I haven't done any personal testing on ST caps but assuming the above post is correct that definitely adds more appeal to the armor set! More debuff = more damage. The only other factor would be to use aoe's to their full potential. We are crowd control after all so there's not much shining for us without that big a' crowd vs our GWF partners in crime who unfortunately suffer a few more target caps and don't gain as much of a benefit as we do from larger pulls. In short, bigger mobs mean bigger dmg numbers.
I'll agree with Silverquick on HV limitations though. A good team will have the crowd stacked fairly well so that a CW can hit most, if not all, the stacked mobs with the HV. Again, this goes down to encounter selection as to whether HV can be stacked well by a single CW or if another CW needs to step in to debuff the rest of the mob. My annoyance is when there's a CW way off yonder dancing with a small aggro'd mob when they'd do well by bringing the mob back to the team. Off on a tangant here, but a well stacked mob not only helps the HV set but once again our GWF's are there to help with debuffing and offering themselves as tasty [off]tanks. Shoot, throw in a buff/debuff DC and try not to blink else the action will be gone.
But back to the OP: Start off with HV and see how well the stacks are being maintained. If there's another CW that's running a more control based rotation HV stacks can be maintained by that guy. A third HV CW is overkill as far as the set effect so feel free to swap out.
Archmage has some pretty interesting results based on rotation since 1 second may not sound like a lot, that is, until a CW is cranking out back-to-back control spells and then CD's feel non-existent. Champion gear sounds great....but the selfishness of just having one super spell seems a bit under par; however, I can see Champion gear working really well against bosses where control spells aren't needed (FH comes to mind).
....Sadly, I'm still not seeing much use for SW especially since its set effect is a little buggy too atm (random internal CD when you leave combat).
-My 2 copper
0
chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited March 2014
Hm, I read this over.
First of all, almost all the CWs i know used to focus on DPS now focus on control for smoother, cleaner runs (nothing is slower and more obnoxious than wipe or separated party or blah blah blah.) I hate sloppy runs too
When someone really blew away a good team in pain giver we had 5CW and he went 2+2 max DPS stats, did a ton of damage, but he said the only reason that worked is because everyone else controlled. It's not as viable in a 2CW party, unless coordination is really good.
silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited March 2014
Well I still personally see the all out AoE, Steal Time, Shards, Sudden Storm. Thats the thing that makes runs move along, AoE damage never goes out of style in these types of dungeons.
Where I tend to see the control part used is primarily in singularity. I'm starting to see more mages start to use it in upper end. It seems many are starting to understand the power the GWFs in party have when they work in conjunction with them. They're starting to use Oppressive Force more as the finisher move which is one of the better uses for it and Singularity as the opener.
I will also add Chem, I have now had the opportunity to work with a few more MoFs. No they don't have the outright DPS I do in large crowds, but I definitely will say they have the subtle touch I do not, which does make things very smooth. Once you start to look for it, you can start to see their contribution. Their CA was it? That you were talking about? The faster version of Singularity but hits only 8 targets?
That is indeed very efficient. I do not know much about the MoF path as I've never rebuilt and tried one, unlike having done the Oppressor, Renegade, and Thaum at various points on the Spellstorm Side.
But I will be the first to say the MoFs after having worked with a few now, though subtle, they are very useful in the things they do which do exactly what you were saying not too long ago when you brought them up here. They do enhance the party pretty well. They're not the outright nuke powerhouse the Spellstorms tend to be, but they are surprisingly powerful in their own way.
Well I still personally see the all out AoE, Steal Time, Shards, Sudden Storm. Thats the thing that makes runs move along, AoE damage never goes out of style in these types of dungeons.
Where I tend to see the control part used is primarily in singularity. I'm starting to see more mages start to use it in upper end. It seems many are starting to understand the power the GWFs in party have when they work in conjunction with them. They're starting to use Oppressive Force more as the finisher move which is one of the better uses for it and Singularity as the opener.
I will also add Chem, I have now had the opportunity to work with a few more MoFs. No they don't have the outright DPS I do in large crowds, but I definitely will say they have the subtle touch I do not, which does make things very smooth. Once you start to look for it, you can start to see their contribution. Their CA was it? That you were talking about? The faster version of Singularity but hits only 8 targets?
That is indeed very efficient. I do not know much about the MoF path as I've never rebuilt and tried one, unlike having done the Oppressor, Renegade, and Thaum at various points on the Spellstorm Side.
But I will be the first to say the MoFs after having worked with a few now, though subtle, they are very useful in the things they do which do exactly what you were saying not too long ago when you brought them up here. They do enhance the party pretty well. They're not the outright nuke powerhouse the Spellstorms tend to be, but they are surprisingly powerful in their own way.
CA is Combustive Action, a class feature. The daily power you are referring to is FI, Furious Immolation. That is the power that quickly groups up 1-8 mobs, throws them in the air briefly and does damage that can not crit. (The lack of crit is changed in the new update, along with a 30% damage reduction).
Personally, they should leave the base damage alone and still allow it to crit if they plan to leave the 8 target cap on it. if they reduce the base damage and add crit to it then they should increase the target cap to at least 12.
0
silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited March 2014
Well on a side note,
I've been slowly collecting pieces of Iliyanbruen Fabled armor in order to test with it. The power description on it is different now that what Grimah described. But I have to admit this armor may actually be bugged.
I got the Gloves, Orb, Ring and Talisman in the Chests in the DD for Malabog's Castle, so of course that meant I had to collect the set now and I'd never really intended to because I was fine with Champion and HV.
Today I was able to pick up the Armor piece as well. And I decided to try it all on after that. Then I put HV back on to do another run, but got a pick up party for another Malabog 2/3 run and eventually changed out for Champion as there was another mage there wearing it.
Suddenly in that run I was just getting pasted in damage by a 14k GS Wizard that I could not figure out why. My damage practically locked at 6 million and never moved after that. That was right about the time I decided to swap out a 2/2 mix in the dungeon to see how it fared with the Fabled and Champion. I was like... errrm something is screwy here... But I was still pretty happy as I'd just picked up another piece and was one step closer to being able to give it a test as a set.
I'd already found one Hidden Gem in Champion Armor, maybe I could find another in Illiyanbruen Fabled.
Before I'd gone on that Malabog run, I'd gone to the Trade of Blades and was testing the new "fix" for the Dummys. I'd gone in before and broken them. I was just using Sudden Strike....
When I came out of Malabogs after that run, in the 2/2 gear I went back into the trade of blades to give the 2/2 set a test. I lost about 400 ap but gained about 400 power in that along with the other stats it gives. And I started Sudden Storm again on the Dummies. It missed repeatedly. I stood right in front of them and was using it over and over and... nothing... didn't even disturb the dummies, like it was never even hitting them. Single target spells were hitting but Sudden Storm, my bread and butter was going right through them without even disturbing them. So I relogged, came back, and it was still doing that. Swapped back to Full Champion and it continued.
So I relogged again and went back out to Sharandar to test on some mobs. It started hitting them so I felt much relieved, but the damage was much lower in the 2/2 set even though my power went up by 400, sure I lost 400 AP from the Champion, but the stuff out in Sharandar is the solo mobs they don't exactly have a ton of Armor or Defense. I can't tell if this stuff is bugged or if it bugs the character when worn.
That or the 400 AP from Champion has a huge effect on damage, granted the 5% bonus damage may have contributed too, as going back to full Champion brought the damage way up again and significantly more than the 2/2 Illiyanbruen/Champion and Illiyanbruen/HV mixes I tried.
Still this Illiyanbruen may have some ... screwiness attached to it. I don't have the full set, but will see once I do.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
On a tangent, it's going to be interesting to see what happens when Sudden Storm gets capped to 5 targets...
You know, I'm not even sure they're going to.
Do you realize the Devs have nerfed everything I do or every tactic I use since the beginning of the game? Apparently its too effective. That spell has been around since the beginning of the game and worked the same way ever since, its only recently gained popularity as a common spell. Nothing changed since that time other than gear scores overpowered the dungeons. Its obviously not about the actual powers of the control wizard.
Believe it or not we used to be actual control wizards back in the beginning. Never had to use a single nuke and could protect your party without even doing much damage.
But due to PvP they nerfed the control powers into nearly nothing which had nasty effects on all other players in the game. Dungeons suddenly got that much harder and at times nearly uncompleteable to the rest of the players. Now the same things it used to take one control wizard to do, now took 2 to 3 Wizards just to do. You can see the after effects of this in the CN Draco fight everyone now complains heavily about as its not doable without 3 of them now. Didn't used to take that many.
The worse they make the problem on Control Wizards... the worse it becomes on everyone else in PvE. It's never made any other class more wanted... it just made THEM want more and more control wizards just to survive.
This has been repeated over and over and over again throughout this game's life. I already know why, but that has to do with dungeon design.
Players are stupid though, they assume making everyone else worse will somehow make their little "niche" better. But in the case of control wizards, it always just makes their shoes worse and that much harder on them. Mostly because they can't handle the dungeons as they were designed, as their classes were never designed for mass mob attacks. Well.. with the exception of one of them, should be two, but I have zero idea of why they'd nerf GWF other than PvP.
That may be the real reason why the Devs have held off on Nerfing CWs for the umpteen millionth time.
They're starting to figure this one out.
0
ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
Believe it or not we used to be actual control wizards back in the beginning. Never had to use a single nuke and could protect your party without even doing much damage.
I've played since beta...CW's have always been able to dish out enormous amounts of damage. How fast we generate AP has been nerfed, and some target limits have been tightened, but we haven't really been the victim of anything near the scale of other classes.
I would definitely anticipate SS and OF getting new target limits when the Devs take another pass at the CW.
EDIT: Sorry, not the thread for a protracted discussion on that. Only point is it's an MMO, everything, including best set for DPS is always open to change.
I've played since beta...CW's have always been able to dish out enormous amounts of damage. How fast we generate AP has been nerfed, and some target limits have been tightened, but we haven't really been the victim of anything near the scale of other classes.
I would definitely anticipate SS and OF getting new target limits when the Devs take another pass at the CW.
Lol well yeah they could always dish out damage when needed but it was never as efficient and still isn't.
But as an example. On another thread I just gave tactics to a newbie regarding Spellplague. What I told him in that thread is nothing close to the way I used to be able to deal with SP back then. It was almost jedi knight like with the control powers, and better yet, I always had my singularity up when I needed it, so no matter how far I spread out the mobs I could pull them right back to the middle anytime I wanted for the party.
When I came back to the game long after that control powers nerf, and had to do that First semi-boss mob encounter again with just nukes and as a single wizard in party, I barely made it through as to where before as a single wizard in group I could control that entire mob, and could do it like a pro without even using nukes. And it only took one Wizard to do it comfortably and support the party.
What does that tell me?
Yeah I know why they want multiple Wizards now.
Target caps for those spells? It's even more hysterical to me. Because that newbie I just gave that advice to is NOW going to have to burn down that crowd, with less damage in worse shoes all alone as Single Wizard in group. While the Single Target damagers are on the boss mob because they're basically worthless in a mass mob situation. So now, parties would likely grab a second wizard to get through that.
And all those classes that THOUGHT their situation would improve by toning down mage damage, will have just made their shoes even worse. Because they're not going to be any more wanted, or needed. But more mages sure will be... because it will take more to do the same things they used to.
And of course... the customary... "Why is it these dungeons need 3-4 wizards to get through????" will come out.
Well, can someone give any information about ilyaunbren set and dread ring set? I still think i would chose the the champmion mage because it have a flat 5 % damage increase, although the 30% reduced cooldown is not as apealing as it sound.
Sorry to the OP for going slightly off topic here but I am not sure why everyone seems so concerned about gearing for control. It seems like these days when you have 15k+ party is that you just sing all mobs on top of each other and aoe them. Usually 1 or 2 sings will clear whatever trash there is. This has held true for my groups in CN and VT. All T2 dungeons are just a joke now. Just my $.02.
Comments
Check again, that steal time debuff is going on all the mobs. It only damages and stuns 5 mobs but it hits more. Same with icy rays, it's technically uncapped but only hits 2 for damage. One of the easiest ways to see this is when using an enchantment like PF, go to a custom foundry with 100 mobs in the same spot and use one of these, then check ACT or your in game log and look at all the pretty numbers. You can also clearly see the debuff from HV on all the mobs. It's the same way that IBS works for GWF, damages a few but is technically an uncapped ability for boons, weapon enchants, class features (steel blitz,) and of course deep gash.
Also pro tip, with archmage steal time reduces cooldowns on control spells by 1 second every tick of steal time. You can let 5 slow ticks go off, get your stacks of HV on everything, shift to cancel steal time, get a 3-4 second recast time for steal time and keep the mobs debuffed forever. This used to be the easiest way to keep HV stacks on a boss solo when they were stacking improperly.
HV, on the other hand, looks really good. The set bonus is very easy to obtain depending on encounters rotation. SoEA and IT work great for this gear set since their targets are non-capped (both for damaging and debuffing purposes). I haven't done any personal testing on ST caps but assuming the above post is correct that definitely adds more appeal to the armor set! More debuff = more damage. The only other factor would be to use aoe's to their full potential. We are crowd control after all so there's not much shining for us without that big a' crowd vs our GWF partners in crime who unfortunately suffer a few more target caps and don't gain as much of a benefit as we do from larger pulls. In short, bigger mobs mean bigger dmg numbers.
I'll agree with Silverquick on HV limitations though. A good team will have the crowd stacked fairly well so that a CW can hit most, if not all, the stacked mobs with the HV. Again, this goes down to encounter selection as to whether HV can be stacked well by a single CW or if another CW needs to step in to debuff the rest of the mob. My annoyance is when there's a CW way off yonder dancing with a small aggro'd mob when they'd do well by bringing the mob back to the team. Off on a tangant here, but a well stacked mob not only helps the HV set but once again our GWF's are there to help with debuffing and offering themselves as tasty [off]tanks. Shoot, throw in a buff/debuff DC and try not to blink else the action will be gone.
But back to the OP: Start off with HV and see how well the stacks are being maintained. If there's another CW that's running a more control based rotation HV stacks can be maintained by that guy. A third HV CW is overkill as far as the set effect so feel free to swap out.
Archmage has some pretty interesting results based on rotation since 1 second may not sound like a lot, that is, until a CW is cranking out back-to-back control spells and then CD's feel non-existent. Champion gear sounds great....but the selfishness of just having one super spell seems a bit under par; however, I can see Champion gear working really well against bosses where control spells aren't needed (FH comes to mind).
....Sadly, I'm still not seeing much use for SW especially since its set effect is a little buggy too atm (random internal CD when you leave combat).
-My 2 copper
First of all, almost all the CWs i know used to focus on DPS now focus on control for smoother, cleaner runs (nothing is slower and more obnoxious than wipe or separated party or blah blah blah.) I hate sloppy runs too
When someone really blew away a good team in pain giver we had 5CW and he went 2+2 max DPS stats, did a ton of damage, but he said the only reason that worked is because everyone else controlled. It's not as viable in a 2CW party, unless coordination is really good.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Where I tend to see the control part used is primarily in singularity. I'm starting to see more mages start to use it in upper end. It seems many are starting to understand the power the GWFs in party have when they work in conjunction with them. They're starting to use Oppressive Force more as the finisher move which is one of the better uses for it and Singularity as the opener.
I will also add Chem, I have now had the opportunity to work with a few more MoFs. No they don't have the outright DPS I do in large crowds, but I definitely will say they have the subtle touch I do not, which does make things very smooth. Once you start to look for it, you can start to see their contribution. Their CA was it? That you were talking about? The faster version of Singularity but hits only 8 targets?
That is indeed very efficient. I do not know much about the MoF path as I've never rebuilt and tried one, unlike having done the Oppressor, Renegade, and Thaum at various points on the Spellstorm Side.
But I will be the first to say the MoFs after having worked with a few now, though subtle, they are very useful in the things they do which do exactly what you were saying not too long ago when you brought them up here. They do enhance the party pretty well. They're not the outright nuke powerhouse the Spellstorms tend to be, but they are surprisingly powerful in their own way.
CA is Combustive Action, a class feature. The daily power you are referring to is FI, Furious Immolation. That is the power that quickly groups up 1-8 mobs, throws them in the air briefly and does damage that can not crit. (The lack of crit is changed in the new update, along with a 30% damage reduction).
Personally, they should leave the base damage alone and still allow it to crit if they plan to leave the 8 target cap on it. if they reduce the base damage and add crit to it then they should increase the target cap to at least 12.
I've been slowly collecting pieces of Iliyanbruen Fabled armor in order to test with it. The power description on it is different now that what Grimah described. But I have to admit this armor may actually be bugged.
I got the Gloves, Orb, Ring and Talisman in the Chests in the DD for Malabog's Castle, so of course that meant I had to collect the set now and I'd never really intended to because I was fine with Champion and HV.
Today I was able to pick up the Armor piece as well. And I decided to try it all on after that. Then I put HV back on to do another run, but got a pick up party for another Malabog 2/3 run and eventually changed out for Champion as there was another mage there wearing it.
Suddenly in that run I was just getting pasted in damage by a 14k GS Wizard that I could not figure out why. My damage practically locked at 6 million and never moved after that. That was right about the time I decided to swap out a 2/2 mix in the dungeon to see how it fared with the Fabled and Champion. I was like... errrm something is screwy here... But I was still pretty happy as I'd just picked up another piece and was one step closer to being able to give it a test as a set.
I'd already found one Hidden Gem in Champion Armor, maybe I could find another in Illiyanbruen Fabled.
Before I'd gone on that Malabog run, I'd gone to the Trade of Blades and was testing the new "fix" for the Dummys. I'd gone in before and broken them. I was just using Sudden Strike....
When I came out of Malabogs after that run, in the 2/2 gear I went back into the trade of blades to give the 2/2 set a test. I lost about 400 ap but gained about 400 power in that along with the other stats it gives. And I started Sudden Storm again on the Dummies. It missed repeatedly. I stood right in front of them and was using it over and over and... nothing... didn't even disturb the dummies, like it was never even hitting them. Single target spells were hitting but Sudden Storm, my bread and butter was going right through them without even disturbing them. So I relogged, came back, and it was still doing that. Swapped back to Full Champion and it continued.
So I relogged again and went back out to Sharandar to test on some mobs. It started hitting them so I felt much relieved, but the damage was much lower in the 2/2 set even though my power went up by 400, sure I lost 400 AP from the Champion, but the stuff out in Sharandar is the solo mobs they don't exactly have a ton of Armor or Defense. I can't tell if this stuff is bugged or if it bugs the character when worn.
That or the 400 AP from Champion has a huge effect on damage, granted the 5% bonus damage may have contributed too, as going back to full Champion brought the damage way up again and significantly more than the 2/2 Illiyanbruen/Champion and Illiyanbruen/HV mixes I tried.
Still this Illiyanbruen may have some ... screwiness attached to it. I don't have the full set, but will see once I do.
On a tangent, it's going to be interesting to see what happens when Sudden Storm gets capped to 5 targets...
You know, I'm not even sure they're going to.
Do you realize the Devs have nerfed everything I do or every tactic I use since the beginning of the game? Apparently its too effective. That spell has been around since the beginning of the game and worked the same way ever since, its only recently gained popularity as a common spell. Nothing changed since that time other than gear scores overpowered the dungeons. Its obviously not about the actual powers of the control wizard.
Believe it or not we used to be actual control wizards back in the beginning. Never had to use a single nuke and could protect your party without even doing much damage.
But due to PvP they nerfed the control powers into nearly nothing which had nasty effects on all other players in the game. Dungeons suddenly got that much harder and at times nearly uncompleteable to the rest of the players. Now the same things it used to take one control wizard to do, now took 2 to 3 Wizards just to do. You can see the after effects of this in the CN Draco fight everyone now complains heavily about as its not doable without 3 of them now. Didn't used to take that many.
The worse they make the problem on Control Wizards... the worse it becomes on everyone else in PvE. It's never made any other class more wanted... it just made THEM want more and more control wizards just to survive.
This has been repeated over and over and over again throughout this game's life. I already know why, but that has to do with dungeon design.
Players are stupid though, they assume making everyone else worse will somehow make their little "niche" better. But in the case of control wizards, it always just makes their shoes worse and that much harder on them. Mostly because they can't handle the dungeons as they were designed, as their classes were never designed for mass mob attacks. Well.. with the exception of one of them, should be two, but I have zero idea of why they'd nerf GWF other than PvP.
That may be the real reason why the Devs have held off on Nerfing CWs for the umpteen millionth time.
They're starting to figure this one out.
I've played since beta...CW's have always been able to dish out enormous amounts of damage. How fast we generate AP has been nerfed, and some target limits have been tightened, but we haven't really been the victim of anything near the scale of other classes.
I would definitely anticipate SS and OF getting new target limits when the Devs take another pass at the CW.
EDIT: Sorry, not the thread for a protracted discussion on that. Only point is it's an MMO, everything, including best set for DPS is always open to change.
It's bad. x10
Lol well yeah they could always dish out damage when needed but it was never as efficient and still isn't.
But as an example. On another thread I just gave tactics to a newbie regarding Spellplague. What I told him in that thread is nothing close to the way I used to be able to deal with SP back then. It was almost jedi knight like with the control powers, and better yet, I always had my singularity up when I needed it, so no matter how far I spread out the mobs I could pull them right back to the middle anytime I wanted for the party.
When I came back to the game long after that control powers nerf, and had to do that First semi-boss mob encounter again with just nukes and as a single wizard in party, I barely made it through as to where before as a single wizard in group I could control that entire mob, and could do it like a pro without even using nukes. And it only took one Wizard to do it comfortably and support the party.
What does that tell me?
Yeah I know why they want multiple Wizards now.
Target caps for those spells? It's even more hysterical to me. Because that newbie I just gave that advice to is NOW going to have to burn down that crowd, with less damage in worse shoes all alone as Single Wizard in group. While the Single Target damagers are on the boss mob because they're basically worthless in a mass mob situation. So now, parties would likely grab a second wizard to get through that.
And all those classes that THOUGHT their situation would improve by toning down mage damage, will have just made their shoes even worse. Because they're not going to be any more wanted, or needed. But more mages sure will be... because it will take more to do the same things they used to.
And of course... the customary... "Why is it these dungeons need 3-4 wizards to get through????" will come out.
Geee... I wonder why...