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I pvp but have no incentive to try
irked01
Banned Users Posts: 91
Here is a typical thing for many people. We are the we like pvp but only do it for the daily people. We don't pvp all the time or even the majority of the time. We might play when there is no daily etc for fun but we are not anywhere near hardcore.
We need 4 pts to complete the daily pvp (win or lose) well the top 5 players in pts get 2 pts towards that 4 points and this in itself is the problem.
Match 1: Our team wins I am in the top 5 get 2 pts. Now I only need 2 more pts to complete.
Match 2: Team wins I work my butt off but do to going against so many ranged I am off the node to many times and lose the pts for capping EVEN THOUGH I WAS INSTRUMENTAL in allowing it to be capped. I find myself near the bottom in pts and realize there is NO WAY to get into the top 5 so there is now no incentive for me to try anymore.
Match 3: As above no incentive win or lose I will get my final point to complete the daily.
I bet you anything the above scenerio happens to many people and many people feel the way I do about the system. How to fix it though is the question of the hour.
I say regardless of where you are in pts you should only get 1 pt per match win or lose this way it is fair to everyone and not those who are lucky enough to be cap *****s.
Get rid of the daily all together (keeping the must win 1) as it forces people to actually want to win to complete it.
A Cryptic dev once stated that they wanted to know why people afk at campfires well here is a very good example of why.
We need 4 pts to complete the daily pvp (win or lose) well the top 5 players in pts get 2 pts towards that 4 points and this in itself is the problem.
Match 1: Our team wins I am in the top 5 get 2 pts. Now I only need 2 more pts to complete.
Match 2: Team wins I work my butt off but do to going against so many ranged I am off the node to many times and lose the pts for capping EVEN THOUGH I WAS INSTRUMENTAL in allowing it to be capped. I find myself near the bottom in pts and realize there is NO WAY to get into the top 5 so there is now no incentive for me to try anymore.
Match 3: As above no incentive win or lose I will get my final point to complete the daily.
I bet you anything the above scenerio happens to many people and many people feel the way I do about the system. How to fix it though is the question of the hour.
I say regardless of where you are in pts you should only get 1 pt per match win or lose this way it is fair to everyone and not those who are lucky enough to be cap *****s.
Get rid of the daily all together (keeping the must win 1) as it forces people to actually want to win to complete it.
A Cryptic dev once stated that they wanted to know why people afk at campfires well here is a very good example of why.
Post edited by irked01 on
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Comments
There is some truth to this, if I'm in my last match that I need for the daily then there is little incentive for me to do more than get 500 pts for glory. So I'll run around and have fun, mostly.
That being said, I think there are an awful lot of people who take PVP *way* too seriously. It's just a game, folks.
Some people might say we are lazy etc. but I am with you to many people take pvp way way to seriously..... It is after all just a stupid game.
I suggested having the 20vs20 PVP available more often so that the disparity can be reduced or at least hidden
I think not, cause you respect the other people with you enough to play your char correctly.
Same goes for PvP.
- if I'm alone on the node capping it, DON'T "help" me. Go make yourself useful someplace else. You have no idea the amount of hate these people produce in me, running from a fight to get their 300 precious points. Kill some peeps, get the 300.
- don't run at home point all from start. One is enough, let the weakest, slowest guy get it. You move your HAMSTER at mid and slug it out.
- are you a GWF, TR, tanky HR or GF? How about going to backcap YOURSELF, instead of letting my squish CW do it?!?
And I could add many more.
But in the end, it all comes down to respecting your teammates enough to play the game for a win, not for the stupid daily. You're in their team, don't do things that might result in losing, eh?
sometimes, i find that staying at mid if i am the only melee in the group is more viable since it will just be more difficult to knock 4 people off the node later. and in this game, a group of people will have an easier time defending a node together from another group rather than attacking a node with a whole group protecting it.
but people rarely understand that everyone running to back-cap is not such a good idea unless u r already dominating or the back-capper is a perma.
Remove all Glory rewards from PvP dailies.
Add the following scoring measures to PvP, so that they get taken into account when you are on the losing team
1. Points for damage delt
2. Points for damage absorbed
3. Points for fighting on point
4. Insert other measures here (that show people were actively participating in the match)
5. Adjust score for GS differentials (if you fail against a team with a much higher GS than you, your reward should be increased compared to failing against a similarly geared team)
6. Adjust for uneven team numbers. If someone leaves and you end up 4-5 or 3-5, you get more Glory at the end.
7. No base minimum for Glory.
Now, you have a system that refuses to award you for simply hanging out in a match. It will not reward you if you don't participate. It will not penalize you for leaving. It WILL award you more Glory for fighting. It WILL give you more Glory for continuing to fight despite uneven teams. It WILL encourage people to play through, despite the odds.
So long as a reasonable amount of Glory is rewarded in a loss, this would fix the majority of the issues.
Although you need to reward those who participate and stay, you still need to have consequence for those who leave.
Despite the "increased" rewards for 4vs5 and 3vs5, you will deal less damage, stay on cap less when there are multiple players focusing you down. Your potential for enjoyment and rewards will still be lower overall so why not keep the leaver's penalty and just implement the participation glory rewards
Once it seems pretty solid, or appears that the bulk of people leaving are exploiting in some fashion, then go ahead and reinstate the penalty for leaving.
Btw, increasing rewards based on match odds offsets the more difficult time you have playing 4-5 or 3-5, and can be set to give similar or greater rewards in spite of the fewer points earned by other measures.
The leaver penalty are so useless. If a game is a 100% lost people sit at spawn anyway, if I need to go somewhere else I don't mind just quit and take the 30 mins penalty besides I have multiple toons...
I have been solo queue and premade half and half for the past week. And I can call it that the match making is really broken. In solo queue it is just as dreadful as it used to be, random match-up, whoever get more sub 10k gs loses. And when I am in a premade we either get paired up with random pug that don't even go to mid at start, or we run into a premade that are way below our league, it wasn't really a contest. There are still some good games here and there but the ratio are about 2 good games out of 10. Not exactly cheering.
Would you mind rephrasing your reasoning as to why we should take away the leaver penalty?
All I got what is gives more data for testing.
I'd still put a leaver's penalty on top of most of your suggestions. Can't trust a F2P community.
let's hear your constructive ideas!
True it isn't effective, but it at least those "afkers" will not get into another match ASAP.
Also, with the rewards system that twisted suggested, it promotes just battling each other for the heck of it.
Ever since the leaver's penalty has been applied, I've had so much less matches with campfire sitting so it has worked in my experience.
The argument to take away the leaver's penalty is miniscule. Yeah it won't correct a crappy community, but its an improvement over what we had before.
Lol your thread title reminded me of Office Space.
I think I've given you a pretty constructive total package that I feel would address most, if not all of the issues at hand. Maybe take a look and give some feed back about it?
Read it in conjunction with my first post. Removing the penalty is a temporary measure to help gauge the effectiveness of the changes I proposed, and would later be reinstated.
I did get your point then, data for testing before reinstatement.
I don't think that is PWE's style to implement a new feature, take away that feature for a bit and reinstate it. It will only confuse and irritate a lot of players needlessly (let's be honest about the playerbase, there are a lot of casuals).
I don't value the gain in taking it away anyways. Just have the leaver's penalty on and implement more rewards based on participation. Problem solved.
A couple of points to that... first, I'm not overly concerned with their style as much as I'm concerned with developing an idea for a quality, long term solution, including a way to review and assess the changes. As for the player base, there are more than a few that are not thrilled with the current system and the leaver penalty itself, so including that with a roll out of a new scoring system (the changes I detailed) I think would receive a warm reception, especially if it has the desired effect on the overall PvP experience.
If you take it off, in conjunction with the other changes, you get the opportunity to see if the changes themselves are having the desired effect. You get to take a quality measure of how the individual match rewards are set. Too low, and people leave, too high, and the path to higher tier PvP gear is too short. There's a balance there that needs to be met, and that balance is much harder to find if you have the negative reinforcement of the penalty in place to weight the feedback you're getting by participation vs. leaving ratios.
I still do not have enough reasonings to convince myself to take away the leaver's penalty, even for a bit.
I realize that YOU are not concerned, but Cryptic's interests and new players will be negatively affected by it and it is in THEIR concern to not implement a feature, take it away for a bit and implement it again. I'd say there are a lot of people pleased with the leaver's system as well such as myself. So there is that. I guess people are split on the leaver's penalty thing.
Some people have had bad experience with this leaver's penalty thing, some people have seen improvements, some people declared that there is no difference. Me personally, I will reiterate that I have seen MASSIVE improvement in terms of Afkers and leavers per team.
You focus on fixing the problems that caused people to leave. That's the goal, actually fixing the issues. If the issues you are fixing were causing people to leave, how do you know you fixed them if, at the same time, you're forcing people to stick around with the penalty at the same time? It just masks the behavior that showed you how broken the system was to begin with.
I might be arrogant, but I'm not so arrogant to think that one attempt at fixing the situation would be perfect from the get go. It will need to be fine tuned, and the actual behavior of the community, the propensity for people to leave, after the fix is in place, is a perfect metric to gauge the effectiveness of the changes.
But let me ask you this. The people who, by your claims, have seen this "massive" improvement on both AFKers and leavers (I doubt this, because while I've seen fewer people leaving, I've seen significantly more people camping and hiding instead of simply leaving), is the improvement the fact that people get penalized for leaving, or is it that they play more often than leave? Because, obviously it's the latter, and if you create a positive reason that has the same impact as the negative reinforcement, then why would you need the negative reinforcement?
Oh please, don't draw up a strawman argument about this being penalties vs incentives. Nobody is stupid enough to believe that.
We are discussing whether to ADD incentives on top of the penalties. ADD participation rewards for participating but also penalties for leaving. Encourage participation and discourage quitting.
I'm not saying you are arrogant, I'm saying you are narrow-minded. Cryptic will MOST LIKELY not take away the leaver penalty only to implement it again to quench your thirst for this specific data which is negligible anyway.
Well you say you've seen more people camping (I doubt it again, because I've seen the exact opposite. There are less leavers and afkers now than before the patch), but I guess to each's sample size his own.
There can be BOTH positive and negative reinforcement. But then again, the crux of this argument is that you are part of the vocal group (yes vocal, the most vocal people on the forums are the ones who want to complain) that thinks there is no improvement and I am part of the group that has SEEN improvement. I guess I will chalk it up to small sample size yet again and we will see a clearer picture in the future.
If (doubt it) I begin to see more people just sitting at campfires to the point that the ratio is the same as leavers before the patch, then the negative reinforcement is ineffective. As of right now, there has been MASSIVE improvement. Is it perfect? No far from it, this community has a lot of players with a certain..... attitude, but I'll take the current change 10 times out of 10.
For players who are after helpless victims a campfire eject would be obviously beneficial. But as there is not the least consequence for dying it changes nothing at all if I am sitting at fire chatting or being ejected chatting. Nothing at all, except some kid with 17k GS can kill my **** toon with 6k GS. Repeatedly.
If NWO continues pursuing the "forced road" starting with leaver penalty going to campfire eject this should be taken into consideration when planning which games to play.
If you turn on 2 HAMSTER at the same time you don't know which one was the reason for your heightened feelings in PvP.
What could you possibly get out of it beating up helpless pixels, if I may ask?
Scenario A: no campfire kicking:
you stand below (as you do not glitch and jump to the campfire) and yell for the lovechilds to jump down and dance with you. They don't do that, so you can not get a point for a kill.
Scenario B: campfire kicking:
you stand below (no need to glitch) and yell for the lovechilds to jump down. They are being ported to the tip of your sword/orb/emblem within 30s and they are at 0 HP within 1 second. They don't fight, as it is useless anyway.
I just don't see any difference, at least from my point of view. Please enlighten me!
They do not attack as they see no possibility to kill a 17k GWF with their 7k GS. Why should they feed themselves if they can not see any possible gain at all?
First of all, relax and remember this is a discussion, nothing personal, so leave the attacks at the door.
Now, some things to consider. I tried this above, but you were content to ignore the questions I asked...
Try to remove yourself from the confines of right and wrong, of you versus me, of the current PvP structure and the game all together and think about things in general terms.
If the point of imposing a penalty for leaving a PvP match is to stop people from leaving matches that have not completed, then would you agree that some situation exists that causes people to want to leave matches instead of playing them out? It either isn't beneficial in terms of character/gear advancement, it isn't "fun" for them, or they are exploiting the system for gain in some way. Sure, there's also the "RL calls" issue, but you can't ever "fix" that, so there is no point in worrying about that aspect.
So, you have three groups of people that would leave, camp or hide in a match. Are we in agreement up to this point?
If so, would you also agree that each of those groups have their own reasons for leaving a match, their own incentive for playing? Sure, some people exist in multiple groups, or float between them. Picture it like a Venn diagram. Some people are in one group only, some in two of the three, some in all three and some outside of them completely. Each circle, each group represents particular incentives, particular reasons for playing and when those incentives or reasons are not being met, there is no benefit for them to participate in the match, so they leave (or effectively leave when camping/hiding).
Still in agreement? We should be, as I'm just talking fundamentals here.
If you look at those incentive structures, those reasons that each of those three groups play and why they leave, and address them, you can set up a structure that is designed to encourage them to play, instead of giving them reasons to leave. The entire point of my proposal is just that. Understand what causes people to quit on their team, and tweak the PvP experience to lessen that behavior in a positive manner. You are free to agree or disagree with that philosophy, or with my personal thoughts on how I would accomplish that all you like, just like I disagree on the idea of "forcing" people to stick in a match, but I can't imagine you'd disagree with the logic leading up to that point.
Under the current structure, there is incentive for people who are not enjoying the PvP experience to play their daily matches, get their minimum score by hoping on their home node at the start, and then camping/hiding until the end of the match. Regardless of how often you've experienced that personally, you can at least acknowledge that the structure of daily rewards creates a system where that incentive exists. You might feel like it doesn't happen enough to warrant addressing, which is fine, but you don't know that, it's not based on actual numbers, and quite frankly, neither do I, only Cryptic knows, but I think we can both agree that the daily rewards (minus the coin reward for winning a match) create the possibility.
The intent of my proposal is to create a system where those incentives do not exist, where people are encouraged to play through a match despite the odds, where people feel adequately rewarded in a win or a loss and can tie that reward back directly to their efforts in the match. Where there is no benefit to grabbing minimal score and camping or hiding in a match, no benefit to leaving. If there is no benefit, there is no reason for people to take that action.
That being said, you can't please all the people. You can't set the rewards high enough so that everyone is happy, without basically just handing them any PvP gear they want without any effort. You can't stop people from wanting to exploit thing. You can't make PvP fun for every single player because not every single player agrees on what fun PvP really is in this or any other game. In my opinion, that's where you bring in the penalty for leaving. Once you've "turned those other HAMSTER" and are satisfied with the impact the changes made, then you turn on the penalty to address the remaining players if they're significant enough a disturbance to warrant attention.
It boils down to the carrot versus the stick. I tend to lean more toward the carrot, particularly in a F2P game. Wield that stick too hard, too often, and you drive off players. Use the carrot in it's place, where applicable, and you encourage more people to play your game, or some particular aspect of that game.
Exactly! Not a good long term solution to just go twisting HAMSTER willy-nilly! lol
If only there were a way to address this that would give said camper the incentive to get out there and fight regardless... hmmmm. ;-)
The problem with 3v5 fights? You lose. It's guaranteed unless you're fighting a team of 5 that's indescribably bad at PvP.
You know the problem with losing, don't you? The rewards for losing are terrible compared to the rewards for winning - and necessarily so, as the better rewards for winning are the whole motivation for trying to win in the first place.