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Feedback: Elo, Matchmaking, Class & Long Queues....

jazzfongjazzfong Member Posts: 1,079 Arc User
edited March 2014 in PvE Discussion
Well, i am not a great top tier pvper with r10/perfect enchantments and legendary artifacts but i believe i can represent most of the mid tier pvp community (especially cleric no matter sent, healer or buff). This is what i get from a perspective of my main cleric, extremely long queue times (20-30 min) especially during pvp hour but relatively short (5 minutes) in other event hour. I sometimes encountered some teammates with extremely well-skilled and geared and sometimes just trolling 7k gs mates shouting at the team because of we are "nub" "pve" or "daily" player for them. I have played quite a lot of pvp matches, with win:lose rate at 50:50 and had acquired 3/4 of my profound armor set and one of the profound neck.

Just now i encountered an epic matchmaking after a 25 min queue, i really want to leave the game when the game starts but to keep a good reputation of mine in pvp i decided to play. Luckily i saw i got some "know how to play" guys in my team so i continued to play happily. I died and died and died constantly just to keep enemies node contested, giving some directions to my allies constantly to make sure the gap between teams isn't widening up and we successfully surpassed the opposite team several times. This is my results, with 2 good tr that willing to sacrifice their points and life as well as "dare to die and kite" hrs. I believe this is PuG, they are not in the same guild, not even 2 of them are from the same guild. Last but not least, GWF are still OP in team battle, introduce the M3 faster please! Cleric doesn't need Healing depression, buffs please!

Any opinions regarding new elo matchmaking and teaming??

ivdfubTl.jpg?2
Ps: the red guy below me is a cleric.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • goldheartgoldheart Member Posts: 236 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    The main problem come from 2 things. Cryptic made new matching system and add tenacity. So now queue is far longer because matching system work and define groups and Domination is longer because ppl die slowly. So if your PVP before was for 15-20 min now it is 30-50 min.

    So when you are medium player where you have much like you, you will get queue fast because there is much parties. But when you are in high or low group you will get PVP slowly because your group is empty and you need just to wait someone to finish and rejoin.

    Now there is no viable glass cannon class that can do anything more than average PVP because we have 4 offensive and 6 defensive stats. I play everytime glass cannon because this is fun for me but now if I want to be more than average player I need to go for defensive stats and to rebuild. Sadly most ppl now do it and you see the result.
  • jazzfongjazzfong Member Posts: 1,079 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    You missed something. This match with elo matchmaking gives a team with 2 gwf 1 cw 1 dc 1 tr and another team 1 dc 2 tr 2 hr after elo sorting for 25 min. It is 2 tanks 2 dps vs 4 squishy dps (kindly ignore dc presence in this type of matchmaking as we really do nothing except being a sand bag). Is this elo fair?? Don't say we need to play for 100+ matches for our elo to be stabilized, I pvp everyday so this isn't an issue for me. Btw, prepatch i only need 1-5 minutes to get into pvp, now i really feel very uncomfortable about long queue times.

    For those who disagree with me, look through my perspective, can you do better than me as a cleric??
  • benskix2benskix2 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 674 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    I don't believe any quality of match is worth a 25 minute queue time in this game. Even if you get matched up perfectly and have a great match, it's not worth sitting there doing nothing waiting for the queue to pop for more than 50% of your total play time, even 20% is too much. If I only have an hour or 2 during the day to play, and I want to PVP, am I going to come into NW and sit in the queue for half an hour and hope that I get in a match? No, I'm going to play another game because even if I like neverwinter PVP better than another games the though of having half of my finite play time wasted by a broken matchmaking system is a frustration I chose not to deal with.
  • morsitansmorsitans Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 1,284 Bounty Hunter
    edited March 2014
    It's always possible the system compares net ELO scores first and foremost, and the best balance of scores it could make was with a "2 gwf 1 cw 1 dc 1 tr" team vs a "1 dc 2 tr 2 hr" team. This would be a shame, since class balance is waaaay more skewed than any form of rudimentary matchmaking score, but it's entirely possible.
  • jazzfongjazzfong Member Posts: 1,079 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Due to leaver penalty, i have to play in this type of match, if i didn't get those good teammates that can stalemate or at least alive for 5 seconds on node, i have no choice except afk for 10 minutes to let the match end and wait for another 20-30 min to get into next pvp.

    2 GWFs can ruin any good team, except they got useless teammate that contribute nothing, not even taking some hits for allies. I at least can be a sandbag for 10 seconds, some other guys (probably newbies and some inexperienced pve speced guys) cant even survive 3 seconds on node or mostly ignored by experienced player.

    "At least they are not unstoppable gauge filler", murmured happily by Elf and continued his gameplay.
  • reiwulfreiwulf Member Posts: 2,687 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    I would prefer if matchmaking was made considering GS, even if it's not a direct indication of skill, or rather just because of it, because that means that the only thing that could be different between you and the others is skill, and that can be learned. but when I get tossed against a team with greater vorpals and soulforged, I can't do much, even if I might be more skilled than them, it's not enough to make up for the huge disadvantage in equipment.
    2e2qwj6.jpg
  • jazzfongjazzfong Member Posts: 1,079 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    reiwulf wrote: »
    I would prefer if matchmaking was made considering GS, even if it's not a direct indication of skill, or rather just because of it, because that means that the only thing that could be different between you and the others is skill, and that can be learned. but when I get tossed against a team with greater vorpals and soulforged, I can't do much, even if I might be more skilled than them, it's not enough to make up for the huge disadvantage in equipment.

    Agree, skill is nothing when you are one shotted by some p.vorpal hr/cw/tr or die in one gwf/gf cc chain. You died before u show any skills. The only class that have no true advantage when in BIS items: DC. Unless you mean alive on node for a few seconds more.
  • rittzbitzrittzbitz Member Posts: 116 Bounty Hunter
    edited March 2014
    jazzfong wrote: »
    Agree, skill is nothing when you are one shotted by some p.vorpal hr/cw/tr or die in one gwf/gf cc chain. You died before u show any skills. The only class that have no true advantage when in BIS items: DC. Unless you mean alive on node for a few seconds more.
    Mmm, the skill is in avoiding the burst from those classes, regardless of gear.

    Yes, gear and enchants to create huge discrepancies, some times even insurmountable ones, but it is not everything. There are youtubes of people in rank 5's killing BiS linked players. My guildmates have gone vs. full pre-mades wearing unslotted T1 glory gear and no accessories and won.

    But, I digress, long queue times to get a match of players who don't speak my language and have no inkling of skill or strategy is frustrating. I guess it allows me to AFK and do other things.
  • ortzhyortzhy Member Posts: 1,103 Bounty Hunter
    edited March 2014
    Sry i need to vent... I hate this matchmaking... seems the higher the rating of one the lower the rating of your team. I always end up in teams with people first time in pvp or with no gear and clueless of minimum tactics. Mostly i face the same type of opponents, why?! Are we so few that play this game that we cant have at least some rating brackets?
  • quitegonejinquitegonejin Member Posts: 3
    edited March 2014
    ugh, these queues. the only thing left that I have to look forward to is dom grind and profound gear.... this isnt helping. And soon my class gets nerfed to oblivion. I just wanna enjoy some pvp before that happens.
  • lihin23nihillihin23nihil Member Posts: 229 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    jazzfong wrote: »
    The only class that have no true advantage when in BIS items: DC. Unless you mean alive on node for a few seconds more.

    I think it's just that DCs have a 'Glass Ceiling' when it comes to gear. You need to out rank your opponent's gear 2-3 ranks to feel the advantage. So other classes can have an effective higher rank of gear than you when you appear to be equally equipped.

    That's what I feel I am seeing anyway.
  • stah01stah01 Member Posts: 540 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    I think there is something quite wrong. I am not new to PVP but I dont run all rank 10's and legendaries but have pretty good gear. But this weekend did some guild PVP and sure enough.. Cucumber Stand, EoA, some other newer PVP super guild.. seriously I think our score was 1000 to 14.. and yes these matches were all one right after another. I expect to get steamrolled, but not for 2 hours. My <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> still hurts. Tenacity makes matches too long and I swear it does nothing in my favor lol. But to stay on subject, something isnt correct.

    As Quitegonejin just stated, would be nice to enjoy some pvp before the destruction of HR's. I feel as though module 3 already came out =P
    GShBCGl.jpg
  • izatarizatar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,161 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    First, if you feel you have no choice but to sit at the campfire, then stop queuing for pvp. You win some, you lose some. Get used to it. You will get better by playing and improving your tactics, not by quitting. If you are getting one shot and beat to crud, then what you do is: get one shot 50 times . Yes. Practice trying to not get one shot by dodging at the right time. Make the suckers pay by having to swing at you twice!

    Next, even a small difference in team quality can lead to 1000 point spreads. Never give up. If its 500 to 0, make it your last dying goal to get 1 point. Fight on! Learning hurts. But its not real pain, you are just twiddling your fingers, right?

    The ELO system is working correctly if occasionally you face teams you get crushed by and teams you crush. This is how it gives you a chance to move up the ratings scale. If it never did this, your rating would never be able to go up, the queues would take forever, and you'd always play against the same people.

    Just learn to lose gracefully, and by gracefully I mean, make them pay for their insolence by playing as hard as you can.
  • overddriveoverddrive Member Posts: 722 Bounty Hunter
    edited March 2014
    ...broken everything and soon they are nerfing gwf and hr into the ground. 45% decrease in splitshot damage? Byebye hr. I am finding it not only harder and harder to put any more money into this game for mounts and stuff, but also in justifying putting many many hours leveling, grinding gear and perfecting a build only to have all of that work and play undone by the dev team. This crew needs to get its **** straight, they pretty much reinvent the ******* classes every few months which absolutely KILLS any incentive in investing any time or money in playing this game. Get the ****ing game straight before you release it, why release something that needs re-engineered every few months? Patching and balancing and fixing are part of keeping an mmo viable, but overhauling everything to this extent, all the time, indicates a game that was never viable in the first place.

    Looong q times only to get into regularly lopsided matches with a really equal match only being as frequent as prior to the matchmaking system. The only thing the elo system really did was extend q times.
    PanzerJäger HR Hybrid
    Jugger Conq GF
    ....
  • alvadimarcoalvadimarco Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Continuing to try and try is one thing, but when the enemy team is camping right outside your spawn and basically farming glory from anyone who dares to jump down, that's.. something else entirely.
  • overddriveoverddrive Member Posts: 722 Bounty Hunter
    edited March 2014
    izatar wrote: »
    First, if you feel you have no choice but to sit at the campfire, then stop queuing for pvp. You win some, you lose some. Get used to it. You will get better by playing and improving your tactics, not by quitting. If you are getting one shot and beat to crud, then what you do is: get one shot 50 times . Yes. Practice trying to not get one shot by dodging at the right time. Make the suckers pay by having to swing at you twice!

    Next, even a small difference in team quality can lead to 1000 point spreads. Never give up. If its 500 to 0, make it your last dying goal to get 1 point. Fight on! Learning hurts. But its not real pain, you are just twiddling your fingers, right?

    The ELO system is working correctly if occasionally you face teams you get crushed by and teams you crush. This is how it gives you a chance to move up the ratings scale. If it never did this, your rating would never be able to go up, the queues would take forever, and you'd always play against the same people.

    Just learn to lose gracefully, and by gracefully I mean, make them pay for their insolence by playing as hard as you can.

    That is great life advice but horrible gaming advice. For life it is try and never give up despite the odds, so on and so forth. For leisure time it is "if you don't enjoy what your doing, do something else". The game has to be FUN to justify playing it. Being camped or camping others is a ****ty experience. Not fun. Of all qqing, it comes down to people complaining because they are not having fun when they expected to have fun. It is a really serious problem for a GAME (a ****ing GAME lol) when you have people on the game discussion forum saying things like, "don't be upset your having a wretched time, just keep trying".

    No one should have to TRY to have fun. In fact, one could even argue that the intent of a game is to create conditions in which "fun" is the most likely outcome for the largest number of people.
    PanzerJäger HR Hybrid
    Jugger Conq GF
    ....
  • izatarizatar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,161 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Look guys, if you can't lose and still have fun, then PvP is not for you. Don't queue up at all. You save yourself unpleasantness, and more importantly, you save everyone else from your grief.
  • overddriveoverddrive Member Posts: 722 Bounty Hunter
    edited March 2014
    izatar wrote: »
    Look guys, if you can't lose and still have fun, then PvP is not for you. Don't queue up at all. You save yourself unpleasantness, and more importantly, you save everyone else from your grief.

    My point is not about losing, it is about not having fun because of lack of competition. Win big or lose big with very very little in between. When I am in my premade we even make a point (when winning big) to never let the enemy node stay blue, to allow spontaneous 1v1 without the rest of the team interfering and so forth just because winning lopsided is as unfun and losing lopsided.
    PanzerJäger HR Hybrid
    Jugger Conq GF
    ....
  • benskix2benskix2 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 674 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    izatar wrote: »
    Look guys, if you can't lose and still have fun, then PvP is not for you. Don't queue up at all. You save yourself unpleasantness, and more importantly, you save everyone else from your grief.

    What if we can't win and have fun because the other team gives up or offers no challenge? For the most part people aren't *****ing about losing, they are *****ing about the matches being just as lopsided as they were if the teams were totally random, with the added bonus of queues taking 20 times longer than they used to. If anyone thinks what we have now is better than what we had before then they didn't really play PVP before. Matchmaking is not making matches appreciably better, its only preventing people from being able to play at all.
  • bobiwanbobiwan Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    izatar wrote: »
    First, if you feel you have no choice but to sit at the campfire, then stop queuing for pvp. You win some, you lose some. Get used to it. You will get better by playing and improving your tactics, not by quitting. If you are getting one shot and beat to crud, then what you do is: get one shot 50 times . Yes. Practice trying to not get one shot by dodging at the right time. Make the suckers pay by having to swing at you twice!

    Next, even a small difference in team quality can lead to 1000 point spreads. Never give up. If its 500 to 0, make it your last dying goal to get 1 point. Fight on! Learning hurts. But its not real pain, you are just twiddling your fingers, right?

    The ELO system is working correctly if occasionally you face teams you get crushed by and teams you crush. This is how it gives you a chance to move up the ratings scale. If it never did this, your rating would never be able to go up, the queues would take forever, and you'd always play against the same people.

    Just learn to lose gracefully, and by gracefully I mean, make them pay for their insolence by playing as hard as you can.
    izatar wrote: »
    Look guys, if you can't lose and still have fun, then PvP is not for you. Don't queue up at all. You save yourself unpleasantness, and more importantly, you save everyone else from your grief.
    This. Even prepatch you would get such useless teams, this. Grow a pair and stop handing the enemy the win, annoy and harass the crud out of them(Isn't that 99% of the fun?!?) even when losing, or just don't bother to queue if you won't try regardless.
    Campfire hero is worse than undergeared. So long as you are trying to cap I can't really be too upset, no matter how bad the odds, at least you are not being the utter waste of a slot that a campfire hero is.
    There have been times a campfire hero has not cost us Victory, but that is straight winning 4v5 and rare. most often, the 'give up hope now, doooom, dooom! I'm afk at campfire' costs us a close game we had a real chance to win if the campfire hero hadn't given up. Campfire heros lose one matches just as much if not more than imbalance. For shame, seriously. This butt-hurt mentality is part of the problem with PVP this game, only in NW do people give up a match so easily, regardless of imbalances in a match-up.
  • jazzfongjazzfong Member Posts: 1,079 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    For afk issue, if the team still trying (those who never give up and and absolutely worth my supporting), i will do all my best to win the game, or at least drag the opposite progression by kiting and dying. If the opposites needs 10 seconds to kill me, they lost 10 sec control of their node. Repeating doing this for 20-30 times will give my team a 5 minutes advantage, however in the match i posted, our just respawned tr failed to reach the last red node for a couple of seconds, thats why we lost the game. (*sigh* tanking 2 GWF and a cw or hr interrupting beside is damm hard as a cleric)

    Btw, i appreciate and accept those who afk in my team if the team is absolutely no hope, this will make the match ends faster with the same poor glory reward. HOWEVER!!!! If the team still doing all they can for winning and you dare to afk behind with your guildies at the beginning of match (i dont want to mention that particular pve guild, it makes ppl mad!!!), then sorry, i will shout out your guild with what u do in zone chat. Sometimes i will get reply in zone chat how bad the reputation of that guild (oh wow~ it is not just me who suffer!) but usually someone just say "chill bro, they just need their daily to be done, thats why they are here trolling us..."
  • overddriveoverddrive Member Posts: 722 Bounty Hunter
    edited March 2014
    I want to be clear- I don't think people are saying "My team is losing so I am going to afk", I think people are saying, "these matches are so lopsided they make the game suck".
    PanzerJäger HR Hybrid
    Jugger Conq GF
    ....
  • jazzfongjazzfong Member Posts: 1,079 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    overddrive wrote: »
    I want to be clear- I don't think people are saying "My team is losing so I am going to afk", I think people are saying, "these matches are so lopsided they make the game suck".

    Obviously, in addition this is a best elo matchmaking after we waited for near half an hour (solo q) or near an hour with premade. 4 squishy against 2 tank and 2 dps?? It is a joke and 100% drama.
  • vasillesvasilles Member Posts: 33 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Classic Pay to Lose and QQ. L 2 P
    Join SCUM Feel Hate Of Others.
  • overddriveoverddrive Member Posts: 722 Bounty Hunter
    edited March 2014
    This thread, and any other in which people express discontent is becoming a troll feast.
    PanzerJäger HR Hybrid
    Jugger Conq GF
    ....
  • hamletswordshamletswords Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 1,320 Bounty Hunter
    edited March 2014
    jazzfong wrote: »
    You missed something. This match with elo matchmaking gives a team with 2 gwf 1 cw 1 dc 1 tr and another team 1 dc 2 tr 2 hr after elo sorting for 25 min. It is 2 tanks 2 dps vs 4 squishy dps (kindly ignore dc presence in this type of matchmaking as we really do nothing except being a sand bag). Is this elo fair?? Don't say we need to play for 100+ matches for our elo to be stabilized, I pvp everyday so this isn't an issue for me. Btw, prepatch i only need 1-5 minutes to get into pvp, now i really feel very uncomfortable about long queue times.

    For those who disagree with me, look through my perspective, can you do better than me as a cleric??

    It doesn't match by class at all, which is too bad considering some classes (GWF and perma-TR's) are so OP compared to all the rest.

    It would be great if it matched also by classes and gave the OP classes 1 point and the others zero and matched points per team.

    GF are pretty strong right now as well in PvP and might deserve a point in this system.
    My Harem: Dawn HR, Erin CW, Piper TR, Zoe GWF
  • ortzhyortzhy Member Posts: 1,103 Bounty Hunter
    edited March 2014
    overddrive wrote: »
    This thread, and any other in which people express discontent is becoming a troll feast.

    People do have reasons to be discontent. They should have made premade ladder as well as solo que. Having fresh lvl 60 in one team facing premades? Ended up 1v4 all the time (for the 3 sec each fight lasted). Half the team goes afk since you cant kick and you cant get a replacement. <=== this is feedback

    I dont mind losing, i mind losing when i have 33 kills and 2 deaths or when i am left alone vs 5 cause my team goes afk( choices?!: do i go and get killed again or do i go afk? but i dont want to go afk since i wanted to pvp and i cant leave since i cant que anymore), or when 4 of my team cant kill a single cleric.
  • jazzfongjazzfong Member Posts: 1,079 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    ortzhy wrote: »
    or when 4 of my team cant kill a single cleric.

    Hahaha i laughed at this. Are they 3k gs or the cleric is in r10?? I have a problem in surviving when meeting normal cw and tr, last time is a guaranteed stalemate but now due to healing depression... well, u know what....
  • mehguy138mehguy138 Member Posts: 1,803 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Ok, explain me some things:

    1. Why were there insanely long queue times when ELO was first introduced? Everyone was at the same ELO, right?
    2. Why those very first a couple of matches were balanced for almost everyone and then turned into random fest?

    I only can say that there's no ELO at all. May be some barely working mechanics that tries to match 5m premades with each other, but I doubt there any matchmaking in solo queue.
    M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
  • ortzhyortzhy Member Posts: 1,103 Bounty Hunter
    edited March 2014
    jazzfong wrote: »
    Hahaha i laughed at this. Are they 3k gs or the cleric is in r10??

    Yes! Exactly this... this is why matchmaking is bad... it takes 1 guy with high rating and fills the grp with 3k gs, when i;ve heard about a ladder, i wanted mainly to avoid 3k gs people
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