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Suggestion: Non-exploitable author placed Skill Nodes

eldartheldarth Member Posts: 4,494 Arc User
edited May 2014 in The Foundry
To allow authors to place different skill nodes that are not exploitable.

Provide "Possible Skill Node Assets" -
  • Possible Arcana Node
  • Possible Dungeon Node
  • Possible Nature Node
  • Possible Religious Node
  • Possible Thievery Node

Budget: (example)
  • 10 Small Map
  • 25 Medium Map
  • 40 Large Map
  • 60 Extra Large Map

At Map LOAD TIME, populate (x) nodes randomly.
Where (x) is determined by Cryptic
-- something like 2 on a small map, 5 on medium, 8 on large, 12 on extra large.
Cannot be "farmed" by bots since existence of actual node is random.

Also implement anti-harvesting mechanism used during Professions event:
-- if so many nodes are farmed within (x) minutes, only worthless junk is returned.
Post edited by Unknown User on

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    casmelakcasmelak Member Posts: 89 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    eldarth wrote: »
    To allow authors to place different skill nodes that are not exploitable.

    Budget: 20 Skill Nodes

    I think there are two easy options:
    1. Easy: No skill node can be within 100' (direct line) of another skill node
    2. Little harder: No skill node can be within 200' (walk-path) to another skill node

    This is an absolute necessity.

    But I wouldn't set a fixed amount.

    I'd scale it based on map size, which is to say, actual map size, not 'huge empty map with tiny single room in it. And keep the distance requirements.

    In all reality it would be really, really hard to make it not exploitable. You could start with a huge empty map, fill it with 50 otherwise empty rooms with a single skill node, and a teleport between each room, single objective (Reach the end room), boom done.

    The only way I can come up with that would pretty much eliminate exploits would be to have the 'Populate' button be a drop-down instead of a single hit button. You make your map, finish adding all your stuff, then hit the drop-down 'Populate -> skill-nodes'. It would do the math on the exposed map area, maybe throw in some logic regarding the quantity of objectives, and toss the skill nodes in for you.

    The nodes would need to be random, which is to say that they'd reload/change the required skill upon map load, rather than be a set value.
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    psyb3rtr011psyb3rtr011 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 340 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    I think one of each per Foundry Dungeon, just like the regular game provides, would be fine.
    Psyb3rTr011
    AKA Cyber Troll and Euben Hadd
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    fr0gurtfr0gurt Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Some other anti-farming measures to consider:

    * No skill nodes will appear until x number of minutes have passed and y number of monsters are killed (by the player specifically, not by the environment).

    * There is also a character-based cooldown timer, one per skill node type.

    Another thing I would like to see is the chance that a skill node is actually a mimic of the sticky pseudo-pod variety. It won't kill you, just force you into a "break free" mini-game that is designed to be easy for humans, but will try to counter repetitive or scripted behavior. (It's an anti-farming measure along the lines of the "Unlucky Anglers" from the Winter Event.)
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    eldartheldarth Member Posts: 4,494 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    For anti-farming all authors need is a random number mechanism we can use.
    In my "Gruumsh's Tower of Conquest" the "path" goes through one of four different bridges only one of which is randomly appeared. using any of the other "paths" is blocked by invisible walls that will drop you into a never-ending pit of hard mobs to kill the bot.
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    zahinderzahinder Member Posts: 897 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    You know, it'd be kind of cool if it worked like Sword Coast Adventures. That is, you got temp/possible loot, but you don't get it actually sent to you/bags until you actually finish the mission. And then scale nodes by mission length.

    This would both let authors have freedom to determine how to sophisticatedly reward characters while cutting out BS stuff like 'make a 2 hour mission with all the goods at the front door so someone can jump in, grab the nodes, drop the quest, repeat'


    I mean, not that any of this is going to happen, but a man can dream.
    Campaign: The Fenwick Cycle NWS-DKR9GB7KH

    Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?

    Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?

    Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
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    zahinderzahinder Member Posts: 897 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    I honestly don't care about micro-managing difficulty of getting to nodes as long as you control 'you spend X time for Y rewards.'

    I mean, if the mission is easy but requires 2 hours to do? Meh, whatever, reward.
    Campaign: The Fenwick Cycle NWS-DKR9GB7KH

    Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?

    Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?

    Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
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    imaginaerum1imaginaerum1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 378 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    My suggestion would be to give a fairly large budget of skill nodes per map (10? 20?), but have each one be a possible location of a skill node. The more of your budget you use, the lower the chance that any given location spawns a skill node. This encourages exploration, adds a random element, slightly frustrates bots, and imo just makes it a bit more interesting.
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    ambisinisterrambisinisterr Member, Neverwinter Moderator Posts: 10,462 Community Moderator
    edited March 2014
    The issue with just having distance limits is that a person could make a big empty area and place them at a distance. Such UGC would be considered exploitive in nature and is probably the big reason it hasn't been added.

    However perhaps it could be limited more in lines with distance, as previously discussed, map size, a much smaller limit per map, and a time delay before additional nodes can be picked.

    Any less than a distance limitation combined with a time delay could probably be exploited too easily.

    And I am in full support of anything that changes dynamics such as random mimics, skill nodes and monsters in general.
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    psyb3rtr011psyb3rtr011 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 340 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    The issue with just having distance limits is that a person could make a big empty area and place them at a distance. Such UGC would be considered exploitive in nature and is probably the big reason it hasn't been added.

    However perhaps it could be limited more in lines with distance, as previously discussed, map size, a much smaller limit per map, and a time delay before additional nodes can be picked.

    Any less than a distance limitation combined with a time delay could probably be exploited too easily.

    And I am in full support of anything that changes dynamics such as random mimics, skill nodes and monsters in general.

    I want mimics to be able to look like more than Chests too. Imagine a Table mimic, or a Skill Node Mimic, etc.. I also want more Jellies, Slimes, Piercers, Lurkers, and other Subterranean terrors. Heck Rust Monsters that wouldn't destroy your armor weapon, but make them temporarily much weaker. (Since having them destroy a Purple Armor would cause the average MMO player to have a conniption fit. Heck, many a Table Top player had one, when their favorite vorpal sword or suit of armor dissolved. :-D
    Psyb3rTr011
    AKA Cyber Troll and Euben Hadd
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    ambisinisterrambisinisterr Member, Neverwinter Moderator Posts: 10,462 Community Moderator
    edited March 2014
    Mimic Doors

    dnd%20greater%20mimic.jpg

    Oh yeah. :D
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    psyb3rtr011psyb3rtr011 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 340 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Mimic Doors

    dnd%20greater%20mimic.jpg

    Oh yeah. :D

    Awesome.... Puts a new influence to the old PnP "My thief listens at the door!"

    Next question is, do Mimics have a heart beat? "Rogue puts ear to door to listen, hears a "Thump, thump" moments before he is surprise attacked.

    Hmmm, "Evil DM Mode here" 3rd Edition Mimics with Rogue and Assassin levels... *Insert evil laughs*
    Psyb3rTr011
    AKA Cyber Troll and Euben Hadd
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    eldartheldarth Member Posts: 4,494 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    Re-envisioned...

    Provide "Possible Skill Node Assets" -
    • Possible Arcana Node
    • Possible Dungeon Node
    • Possible Nature Node
    • Possible Religious Node
    • Possible Thievery Node

    Budget:
    (example)
    • 10 Small Map
    • 25 Medium Map
    • 40 Large Map
    • 60 Extra Large Map


    At Map LOAD TIME, populate (x) nodes randomly.
    Where (x) is determined by Cryptic
    -- something like 2 on a small map, 5 on medium, 8 on large, 12 on extra large.
    Cannot be "farmed" by bots since existence of actual node is random.

    Also implement anti-harvesting mechanism used during Professions event:
    -- if so many nodes are farmed within (x) minutes, only worthless junk is returned.
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    zebularzebular Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 15,270 Community Moderator
    edited May 2014
    I'd really like to add things like skill nodes as well. As Eldarth details, exploiting it would be at a minimum if the proper checks and balances are in place.

    Something I've thought for a while now is to have the Authors specify an X amount of locations where spawn nodes of that type could spawn and the system would randomly choose each time a player loads into that map in the mission.

    So, say for example if the system would allow you to have 1 of each type of skill node on your map, then IF you place any skill node spawn points, the system would require you to place 5 total per node type placed.





    Here's some examples on how this system would work (the numbers are just there to give an example, I'm not suggesting the budget size as I don't have an opinion on that):

    Type A Nodes (Placed) ........................ Type B Nodes (Must Place)
    1 Arcane
    ........................................... 4 Arcane
    1 Rogue
    ............................................ 4 Rogue
    1 Nature
    ........................................... 4 Nature
    1 Religion
    .......................................... 4 Religion
    1 Dungeoneering
    ................................ 4 Dungeoneering

    So here, out of the 25 spawn node points placed, only 5 nodes will spawn. The One Arcane Node would have 5 points to randomly spawn at, as would Rogue, Nature, Religion, and Dungeoneering.





    Type A Nodes (Placed) ........................ Type B Nodes (Must Place)
    3 Arcane
    ........................................... 12 Arcane
    3 Rogue
    ............................................ 12 Rogue
    3 Nature
    ........................................... 12 Nature
    3 Religion
    .......................................... 12 Religion
    3 Dungeoneering
    ................................. 12 Dungeoneering

    So here, out of the 75 spawn node points placed, only 15 nodes will spawn. The Three Arcane Nodes would have 15 points to randomly spawn at, as would Rogue, Nature, Religion, and Dungeoneering.






    So basically, whatever the budget size - for each skill node an author wishes to place, that skill node type must have
    X* places to randomly spawn at. So, if I placed 1 Arcane Node Spawn Point (Type A), before I could publish the mission, I'd need to place 4 more Arcane Node Spawn Points (Type B) but that Arcane Node would only spawn at one of them. If I placed 2 Type A Arcane Node Spawn Points, I'd then need to place 8 Type B Arcane Node Spawn Points.
    *Again, all numbers are there only to allow for easier to understand examples for explanations. I have no opinion on what the budget size should be or how many spawn node points would need to be in place to randomly spawn at. I am confidant that Cryptic would be able to devise such things from their statistics, analytics, and developer decisions.

    There would also need to be something in place to keep the spawn node points from being placed too close together or in invalid/unreachable locations. The latter of which may not be entirely possible but might be able to have something in place to help.




    As well, the addition of placing Skill Nodes could open the door to allowing us to place randomly spawning Mimics of various types as well as randomly spawning Group Dungeon Chests at spawn points placed!
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    reiwulfreiwulf Member Posts: 2,687 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    it's a good idea, but I think it's overly complicated, they would have to check the positions to prevent it, also someone could add teleporters to all the possible locations...
    I think an easier way is to have nodes give nothing useful if you open too many of them too fast. that counts as a whole number for ALL foundry quests too.
    So, you open a node, and open a second one, and open a third one, but the third one and so on has only <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> items, or maybe they don't even appear at all.
    Make it so you can only open 3 or so skill nodes per hour in foundry quests, and the rest is either empty, or can't be opened, or gives useless items.
    2e2qwj6.jpg
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    eldartheldarth Member Posts: 4,494 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    zebular wrote: »
    Something I've thought for a while now is to have the Authors specify an X amount of locations where spawn nodes of that type could spawn and the system would randomly choose each time a player loads into that map in the mission.

    That's exactly what I was trying to describe. It would allow authors to "suggest" node placement, then when the map is loaded, Cryptic populates "a few" of the suggested locations with the suggested type.

    Simple, elegant, very farm resistant.
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    eldartheldarth Member Posts: 4,494 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    reiwulf wrote: »
    I think an easier way is to have nodes give nothing useful if you open too many of them too fast. that counts as a whole number for ALL foundry quests too.
    So, you open a node, and open a second one, and open a third one, but the third one and so on has only <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> items, or maybe they don't even appear at all..

    That's exactly the last detail -- implementing the same X skill nodes per Y minutes, exceed and get <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> items.
    That's how the "Professions Event" handles it -- simply enable that during a foundry.
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    bardaaronbardaaron Member Posts: 545 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2014
    I would like to see skill nodes in place too, and love the idea of mimics. Maybe if there were a percent chance that each node was a mimic with a cooldown, so if you hit too many too quickly, pretty soon one would be a mimic. To illustrate the idea, let's say that each node gives a +25% chance that it will be a mimic (workable values may be very different). This cools down at a rate of, for purposes of example (again, in play it might be otherwise) 2% per minute. This would mean it would go something like this:

    1st Node: 25% chance of mimic
    (Let's say 5 minutes passes before they find the next node)

    2nd Node: 40% chance of mimic (25% for first node, -10% for 5 minutes, +25% for second node).
    (Now let's say that only 2 minutes pass between this and the next)

    3rd Node: 61% chance of mimic (40% chance at node 2, -4% for time, +25% for third node)

    At his point it is not more likely than not that the chest will be a mimic. This way if the map was overpopulated, this would quickly lead to mimics appearing instead of loot. Granted, just waiting around a long time would reduce the likelihood, but not eliminate the chance, and using the above mechanics, exploitative bots are still going to have to deal with mimics at least 1 out of 4 times, possibly more if they are set up for farming.


    I do wonder if we are getting too overcomplicated with the idea of skill nodes however (above idea included). I feel like it would be an improvement to be able to place even 1 of each per map, regardless of size, and be done with it. Size of map doesn't affect how many chests or respawn points you get, so it would at least be internally consistent if the size did not affect how many skill nodes you could place. This might make some bigger maps feel a bit nerfed, but certainly not more so than they already are, and 1 of each has minimal exploit potential.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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