Iron Vanguard GWF Questions

Comments

• morsitans Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 1,284 Bounty Hunter

  March 2014 edited March 2014

  Roar is an absolute beast for generating determination, so if you're having trouble getting hit enough, putting some points into that might help.

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• beckylunatic Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 14,231 Arc User

  March 2014 edited March 2014

  So, not comparing your calc build but just looking at your writeup here, you're using something very similar to the original PvE Leeroy Jenkins build posted by kolatmaster
  http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?426811-Sentinel-GWF-Build-PvE-Focus-%28PvP-viable%29-Leeroy-Jenkins!
  
  1. If you don't have points for powers you haven't been using anyway, I'd be disinclined to worry about it.
  2. I gather Punishing Charge still has some PvE applications for AP gain for people willing to put in the effort to aim it properly. It's not a favored skill for IVs though.
  3. I have slotted Indomitable Strength, then had forehead-slap moments when using it on something that wasn't control-immune and knocking it away. Big knockbacks tend to mess up your party's rotations. When playing a TR, I hate playing with people using this skill. I've been using Avalanche. My husband uses Spinning Strike. A lot of choice here can be the daily you simply like best.
  4. IV Sentinels don't get to pop Unstoppable as much as more glass cannon GWF builds without really courting the red. Even then, they don't get to pop it as much, because they can be pretty hard to hurt. Keep whapping things with Threatening Rush to help keep them interested in you.
  5a. Trample helps your DPS very much. It works with the slowing effect from Not So Fast in your standard rotation. It works with every control ability used by your party too.
  5b. For one thing, removing the at-will that marks targets and the added damage to marked targets will reduce your ability to generate threat via DPS. Come and Get It isn't really a damage skill, but one that sets up the rotation. You're not even using Daring Shout. Seems like a waste of points compared to what you're already doing.
  6. Personally, I view it as a PvE buff, but I don't like using this skill due to previously mentioned aversion to knockbacks.
  
  Edit:
  7. Partly inspired by prior reply, I liked Daring Shout for adding determination generation (like Roar w/ no knockback), but I can't find room for it in a rotation that's actually designed to deal damage. Kind of ok for wimpy solo trash clearing where it's otherwise hard to get Unstoppable up, just to make it go faster. (That's on my SM Destroyer though.)

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• zacazu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,934 Arc User

  March 2014 edited March 2014

  "04. Determination generation: When I was Swordmaster / Destroyer I of course used the capstone "Destroyer's Purpose" and was generating Determination on damage. Now as a 12.5k GS / Stone / Normal Lightning Iron Vanguard - Sentinel I don't seem to keep aggro away from higher GS CWs meaning I don't generate much Determination unless I run into red zones on purpose. Not generating the Determination means I can't use Unstoppable as much which means I am dealing even less damage and generating even less threat... a viscous cycle. How do I correct this? Is higher GS the only real solution? (I have never seen anyone say anything good about Steadfast Determination)"
  
  
  and this summarizes the structural problem of gwf ... is so good to read the testimony of a real gwf about his experience while defender.
  
  but I think his biggest problem is due to the rotation of powers ('m just theorizing; do not have practical experience).
  
  you pull your enemies with CGI, ok. but the frontline knoking and pushing back the Opponents . given the fact, anticipating the effect of slow with the "not so fast" creates a "delay" in combat. after being knocked down and away, the enemy still needs time to return to the scene. this is basically what the feat "Crippling Strike" is (not so fast and frontline are two powers contemplated by the instigator).
  
  If you're not willing to use the ibs - and I congratulate you for it - would be more interesting to replace the cgi by Mighty Leap and try instigator; has much more to do with your style.

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• gnomeraider Member Posts: 0 Arc User

  March 2014 edited March 2014

  Punishing charge is great if you are taking the adds, but it is only worth it if you put the 3 points in it.
  
  You gather up all the adds in say a SP and tada I am behind you, oh wait look I am behind you again.

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• piku247 Member Posts: 67 Arc User

  March 2014 edited March 2014

  03. Well if u want provide more safety when your party is facing a bigger group of mobs use Avalache on them. Basically i have sloted both Slam/Avalache through the run and using it depends on how much mobs i can hit at once, plus with Deep Gash, Avalache can give u amazing damage boost when used on bigger pack of mobs. Indomitable Str. only on bosses/PVP.
  
  06. FS was not nerfer, was changed. Now in PVE u can prone 5 targets instead of 3 which is very helpful, plus damage from it is still quite good

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• albtroll01 Member Posts: 3 Arc User

  March 2014 edited March 2014

  zacazu wrote: »

  but I think his biggest problem is due to the rotation of powers ('m just theorizing; do not have practical experience).
  
  you pull your enemies with CGI, ok. but the frontline knoking and pushing back the Opponents . given the fact, anticipating the effect of slow with the "not so fast" creates a "delay" in combat. after being knocked down and away, the enemy still needs time to return to the scene. this is basically what the feat "Crippling Strike" is (not so fast and frontline are two powers contemplated by the instigator).
  
  If you're not willing to use the ibs - and I congratulate you for it - would be more interesting to replace the cgi by Mighty Leap and try instigator; has much more to do with your style.

  
  Okay so here is my rotation:
  Come and Get It -> Not So Fast -> Threatening Rush (If I need to mark) -> Frontline Surge -> Wicked Strike X 3 or X 6 -> Repeat
  
  Usually Wicked strike x 6 is necessary because of Cooldown times though if I spend a few more seconds dodging or maneuvering then 3 is okay.
  
  Even with the knock back / prone of Frontline Surge I don't have to move up to hit the targets knocked away with Wicked Strike. They do have stand up and move back to me (if melee) to deal damage to me and thus produce determination but they again are usually looking for a CW to pound on.
  
  Mainly I think the problem is the GWF "Tab" ability. For all other classes they are in total control over how their Tab ability becomes available.
  
  DCs: They use skills and build Divine Power.
  CWs: They just slot an additional Encounter power and the power gets even better (Usually) Don't get me started on how this is SO much better than every other TAB ability...
  TRs: They have to avoid damage so their stealth regens, which they should be doing in the first place.
  GF: They have skills that refill block, GWFs do have Determination gen skills, BUT the Block bar will regen on its own without a class feature slotted.
  HR: They can switch between melee and ranged at will with basically no delay.

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• zacazu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,934 Arc User

  March 2014 edited March 2014

  Ok, let a point . Not coincidentally , I suggested that you go with the instigator . The wicked strike ( WMS ) has the characteristic to reduced damage to each opponent beyond the first or something. This is more or less what you just hold the threat of an enemy .
  
  obviously from right gear your damage is so bizarre that this mechanic is ignored .
  
  Well , this was the problem I faced in module 1 . The lack of threat of class was a general complaint ... then I decided to use the " reaping strike ." This works like split shoot in terms of threat . And in addition , he received an enhanced threat to the sentinel . " That's what gwf needed to be a great defender ."
  
  But we have two problems here:
  
  1 - this Atwill is "impossible" to be used without an intense synergy with the unstoppable , being feasible only with the destroyer ( the irony is repeated ) .
  
  2 - the dynamics of the current game is : kill the enemy before somebody kill for you .
  
  
  Anyway , you can try . I have not yet heard of a sentinel who tried to use this power . as the area of power is high , it may be that you conquer the threat of them still on the floor .
  
  ps:Again, I'm just theorizing.

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• albtroll01 Member Posts: 3 Arc User

  March 2014 edited March 2014

  zacazu wrote: »

  Ok, let a point . Not coincidentally , I suggested that you go with the instigator . The wicked strike ( WMS ) has the characteristic to reduced damage to each opponent beyond the first or something. This is more or less what you just hold the threat of an enemy .
  
  obviously from right gear your damage is so bizarre that this mechanic is ignored .
  
  Well , this was the problem I faced in module 1 . The lack of threat of class was a general complaint ... then I decided to use the " reaping strike ." This works like split shoot in terms of threat . And in addition , he received an enhanced threat to the sentinel . " That's what gwf needed to be a great defender ."
  
  But we have two problems here:
  
  1 - this Atwill is "impossible" to be used without an intense synergy with the unstoppable , being feasible only with the destroyer ( the irony is repeated ) .
  
  2 - the dynamics of the current game is : kill the enemy before somebody kill for you .
  
  
  Anyway , you can try . I have not yet heard of a sentinel who tried to use this power . as the area of power is high , it may be that you conquer the threat of them still on the floor .
  
  ps:Again, I'm just theorizing.

  
  Okay I am not sure what your point is maybe there is a language issue but... NO ONE is going to spec Instigator. That paragon line is just total HAMSTER.
  
  For more dps you are looking for % increases in damage that are going to be "Up" pretty much all the time. The capstone feat for Instigator is going to be down if you have aggro which is my aim. The additional threat and mitigation from Sentinel is not present in the Instigator line.
  
  There is synergy between "Vicious Advantage" and "Allied Opportunity". "Group Assault" only really counter acts the drawbacks of using Wicked Strike, because Iron Vanguard specced and Weapon Master's Strike is not available as an AoE.
  
  I don't accept Reaping Strike as a viable At-Will. You have to move in this game not necessarily because of the damage but many "Red" attacks have a crowd control component to them at higher levels. Reaping Strike allows you to take the damage from the "Red" attack in some cases but you will be CCed and thus not dealing damage.
  
  There are six possible Paragon Combos:
  
  Swordmaster - Instigator
  Swordmaster - Destroyer
  Swordmaster - Sentinel
  Iron Vanguard - Instigator
  Iron Vanguard - Destroyer
  Iron Vanguard - Sentinel
  
  GWFs have two single target At-Wills: Sure Strike and Threatening Rush. Threatening Rush is only available to Iron Vanguards and isn't really used to deal damage it is used to MARK.
  
  GWFs have three AoE At-Wills: Reaping Strike, Wicked Strike and Weapon Master's Strike.
  
  Weapon Master's Strike and Wicked Strike both Debuff their targets as well as having their damage reduced for each target hit after the first. Weapon Master's Strike hits twice on each swing but deals the same damage on all swings (no increased damage on third swing). Wicked Strike does have increased damage on its third swing.
  
  The question becomes what is the DPS for the following two rotations:
  #1: Wicked Strike 1 + Wicked Strike 2 + Wicked Strike 3 (Increased Damage) / Time for all three Wicked Strikes
  #2: (WMS 1 + Follow Up 1) + (WMS 2 + Follow Up 2) + (WMS 3 + Follow Up 3) / Time For all three WMS + Follow Ups
  
  I have never seen anyone advocate for using Wicked Strike over Weapon Master's Strike as a Swordmaster, the only reason anyone uses Wicked Strike is they have specced Iron Vanguard and Reaping Strike is horrible.

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• zacazu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,934 Arc User

  March 2014 edited March 2014

  "Okay I am not sure what your point is maybe there is a language issue but... NO ONE is going to spec Instigator. That paragon line is just total HAMSTER. "
  
  I am not sure ... but Polemics aside, I assume you are looking for something different, without ibs . My suggestion "official " will always be destroyer + ibs for pve.
  
  "For more dps you are looking for % increases in damage that are going to be "Up" pretty much all the time. The capstone feat for Instigator is going to be down if you have aggro which is my aim. The additional threat and mitigation from Sentinel is not present in the Instigator line. "
  
  Here is the funny thing : until you reach a certain " gearscore " the class NOT have great tools for exert the role of defender. there goes your style of play , and not a internal mechanical solution.
  
  From its rotation and the problems that you claim , I suggested that the instigator is the path that draws the lack of threat ... if you go to generate threat by means of damage , then , a crooked middle, you got the he wanted.
  
  Since the end of the beta , I not have seen a good gwf defender . I saw a lot of kamikazes in high gear .
  
  I don't accept Reaping Strike as a viable At-Will. You have to move in this game not necessarily because of the damage but many "Red" attacks have a crowd control component to them at higher levels. Reaping Strike allows you to take the damage from the "Red" attack in some cases but you will be CCed and thus not dealing damage."
  
  So I said that it is feasible only for the destroyer ( I get more time unstoppable than normal" ) , told you to try, and that was not the solution to your sentinel . At the time I held the threat of cw : this is the testimony which I have on this power.
  
  
  
  About wms x ws / iv vs sm ... I confess that I missed the point . I said that the two powers , inherently , are not good for aoe threat - what you want - and mechanically explained why.
  
  What I say briefly :
  
  Had a player who used to make intelligent comparisons between gwf and gf , and he related his experience with the new " sentinel " . In terms of "defender" , were not good .
  
  what I see is that gwf sentinels with high gearscore has done good damage . good damage = threat.

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• inthefade462 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User

  March 2014 edited March 2014

  having briefly read the original post, I will somewhat concur with Zacau's last post.
  
  IV sent at low gs isn't that great. you don't deal enough damage to hold threat, and you actually tank dmg better than you need to. Sentinel on a whole tanks better than necessary meaning you have low determination building unless you go out of your way to stand in every single red.

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• kemikemorya Member Posts: 25 Arc User

  March 2014 edited March 2014

  I'd like to add my two cents if I may.
  
  I've been playing Sent GWF since beta and switched to IV when that path became available. I'm running a defense/deflect/regen build for pvp and pve focusing on threat generation. Intimidation is great for this when used with either C&GI or Daring Shout, although keep in mind that the bonus threat generation applies only while the power is active - 3 secs for C&GI, 14 secs for rank 3 Daring Shout. Daring shout is nice at times because it also adds a defense buff which can max out your damage resistance (80%) meaning you can stand in red zones etc and not suffer too badly.
  
  My usual dungeon rotation though is C&GI -> FS -> IBS. The 30% damage buff from C&GI goes great with FS, and generates a nice deal of threat (25% strike damage, and if you crit FS on 5 mobs for 5-7k each, that's a great amount of threat you're making). I've never had any problem generating more threat than a CW or DC, and can only be bested by a threat-specced GF.
  
  Also, having 3 points in Punishing charge is very very useful for boss fights that do fast AoEs that you just simply cannot sprint out of before you get 1 shotted. This is the only time I use it and it saves my bacon heaps. You can do PC to zip out of a red zone, turn around, then Threatening rush to get straight back in and keep fighting!
  
  Also, in terms of daily don't underestimate Avalanche. It can hit up to 20 enemies and the prone duration is not insignificant, not to mention that you are immune to damage and CC for the entire casting duration. That 10 secs of immunity can really save your bacon, as well as some party member who has been taken out.

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